The Hag Rule
When Atlantic City's Borgata Casino hires "Borgata Babes," which is what they call their waitresses, they'd really, kinda, like them to be...well...babe-like. So, they told them they could lose their jobs if they gain weight.
Reality check: No, contrary to the "fat acceptance" ladies' contention, fat is not attractive. And men, except for a few chubby chasers, find fat women especially unattractive. Fat women know this. They're just rather pretend it's not true, which takes a lot less effort than prying the fork out of their jaws, reading this book, and dragging their wide loads to the gym. (Note that you don't hear thin women saying they "accept" themselves for how they look. And hot waitresses draw customers.)
The company told CNN/Money on Friday that the new policy applies to anyone -- including male bartenders -- who gains more than 7 percent of their body weight. But if the weight gain is caused by pregnancy or a medical condition, the company said, the server would be exempt."We find this policy to be legal and fair, because the job is defined as a 'performing art' profession at Bogata," Bogata spokesman Michael Facenda told CNN/Money. "Our guests have to come to expect a certain level of service and appearance, and it's our intention to maintain (that image)."
The policy infuriated women's rights advocates, the cocktail servers' union and others, who call the move discriminatory. The cocktail waitress union is also filing a complaint against the new policy. But so far no legal actions have been taken.
Imagine that: They want hot women waitressing in a casino. Gasp! Not every woman is hot enough to be an Atlantic City cocktail waitress. Gasp! Every profession in the world is not open to everybody. For example, I can't ever be a supermodel. Gasp! Double gasp! Then again...perhaps I could make a few bucks suing Vogue for not putting me on the cover. In fact, I don't recall seeing myself on the cover of Elle lately...or ever, as a matter of fact. DISCRIMINATION! What is that number...1-800-LAWYER? Sorry, must wind up this blog item and get phoning.
> men, except for a few chubby chasers, find
> fat women especially unattractive.
Amy, by this metric, would you say that men find other men "especially unnattractive"?
Jus' checking.
Me I likes the big girls, but also their skinny sisters, and I don't care how old they are, or how stupid.
Cridland at February 19, 2005 9:17 AM
Men aren't judged by the same standards women are. We care more about whether they have status. Hence, all the ugly men in the world with really beautiful women. Some men do like the larger ladies. But most people, including fat people, would probably tell you (if you can get them to be honest) that people who are not obese or overweight are more attractive.
Amy Alkon at February 19, 2005 9:47 AM
Your honor, move to strike as non-responsive.
You're dodging!
Cridland at February 19, 2005 10:07 AM
Hi Amy –
You're in good company here … (smile) … from the Daily Telegraph (London) last autumn (November 19, 2004):
Ministers line up to attack Charles as 'patronising'
The dispute between the Prince of Wales and the Government over education intensified last night when a second Cabinet minister rebuked the prince for claiming the current system fuelled unrealistic ambitions.
The prince stood his ground despite being labelled "old-fashioned and patronising" by Charles Clarke, the Education Secretary. …/…
While on many issues, such as organic food and the environment, Prince Charles had been ahead of the game, "on this occasion I happen to think he is wrong". Mr Reid (note by L'A: the British Health Secretary) , describing himself as a meritocrat, said ambition was the driving force of the country. Children should be told: "Whether you go to public school, private or state schools, whatever background you come from, you have it in you, if you use your own endeavours and energies, to be almost anything in this country."
It was "regretful" if the prince was saying that was not the case, but he acknowledged that the remarks - in an internal memo - were probably never meant to be public.
The prince's hand-written note was read out at an industrial tribunal case brought by a former member of his household staff, Elaine Day, who is claiming that she was dismissed unfairly on the grounds of sex discrimination and victimisation.
In it, the prince said the education system made people believe they could be "pop stars, High Court judges, TV presenters or heads of state" without putting in the effort or having the natural ability.
Guess it applies to waiters and waitresses, too, eh ?
L'Amerloque
L'Amerloque at February 19, 2005 10:17 AM
> men, except for a few chubby chasers, find
> fat women especially unattractive.
>> Amy, by this metric, would you say that men find >> other men "especially unnattractive"?
It's safe to say that gay men, except for a few chubby chasers, are thoroughly disgusted by fat bodies. Next up in the atrocity line-up is nose hairs (avec or sans buggers).
Lena-doodle-doo at February 19, 2005 10:41 AM
Gay men are men, and thus, have the same standards for beauty as the hetero men. Lesbians, like hetero women, don't care as much about looks, generally speaking.
Amy Alkon at February 19, 2005 10:51 AM
Great observation, Amy...
Gay men are men, and thus, have the same standards for beauty as the hetero men. Lesbians, like hetero women, don't care as much about looks, generally speaking.
Doug at February 19, 2005 11:57 AM
> Gay men are men, and thus...
Right, but what I'm asking is....
Cridland at February 19, 2005 3:01 PM
I would think gay men would have standards of male type beauty much closer to those of hetero women, not the least being some key body parts. Now male attractiveness is a whole different category. On that topic, then you can call up the money, status, and power ducats for the male in question. Hence, beauty might not be the overriding partnering factor for hetero women, but it is sure brings the juice.
A few days ago, someone pointed out that men often overreach their own attraction levels going after beauty. Wonder if that is applicable equally to gay men?
allan at February 21, 2005 2:36 PM
Gay men are men, and have the same sexuality as other men - ie, prefer beauty. Note the market for porn to gay men and straight men. Men, men, all of them. Women don't care as much as men about their partner's looks. They're more interested in potential. Tallness and symmetry, however, is important. Can't remember whose research I'm quoting there -- probably Buss and Schmidt from the late 80s/early 90s. Men and women are not going after the same things, which is why you see hot young things in Hollywood out with wrinkly old men.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2005 2:47 PM
There are fewer and fewer hot young things in Hollywood out with wrinkly old men - young girls dating grandpa's agemates may have been true maybe 20-30 years ago, but now more hot young women are going out with hot young men. In Hollywood most of the hot young female celebrities are dating and marrying hot young male celebrities (if they are straight, otherwise substitute gender as needed ). I realise this doesn't necessarily mean that Amy is wrong since these days there are more hot young men with money compared to say 30 years ago and it could all boil down to the same thing.
My own feeling is that it's women who feel that they cannot become wealthy in their own right who consider money, status as very important. Women who have access to education, and/or expect to build their own careers, and/ or wealth simply want a man who turns them on(Britney Spears+Kevin Federline).
I have to admit that my personal view is at best just a fraction of the complete answer, if it's even that. Amy's statment that women go for "potential" has a lot of merit. In this world of Hollywood millions and of business favoring good looking people over the less attractive, I know I don't want to pass on "ugly" genes to my children. I cringe when I see ugly babies and there are a few. I believe that good looks are more likely to lead to wealth than intelligence is. My theory is that the percentage of good looking people who are wealthy primarily due to their to their looks is higher than the percentage of intelligent people who are wealthy primarily due to their brains. Our greatest thinkers, earn(ed) far less than movie stars.
The way I see this playing out in my life (as if you care!): I have enough brains for both of us, so I am just looking for a nice and very attractive man so I can have very good looking kids who are of at least average intelligence. If he's poor he can stay home with the kids. Aside: I once offered the "stay home with the (future) kids option" to a guy I was in a long term relationship with and he didn't think it was funny. He broke up with me some months later mumbling something about "can't get married until he gets his career together". I think he wanted to let me down gently. Such a good looking man too, what a shame, when I first saw him I said "He'll make some pretty babies", and within a few days I told him as much.
mieoux at February 22, 2005 8:41 AM
"My own feeling is that it's women who feel that they cannot become wealthy in their own right who consider money, status as very important. Women who have access to education, and/or expect to build their own careers, and/ or wealth simply want a man who turns them on(Britney Spears+Kevin Federline). "
This is called the Structural Hypothesis theory, that women, when they have high income and status, feel comfortable picking men of lower income and status, and U Texas' David Buss has proven that it's generally wrong. Women who pick men of lesser status are jeopardizing the chances of success for their marriage.
Amy Alkon at February 23, 2005 7:11 AM
"Aside: I once offered the "stay home with the (future) kids option" to a guy I was in a long term relationship with and he didn't think it was funny. He broke up with me some months later mumbling something about "can't get married until he gets his career together". I think he wanted to let me down gently. Such a good looking man too, what a shame, when I first saw him I said "He'll make some pretty babies", and within a few days I told him as much."
Cindy, never get involved with a man who doesn't have his career together, and feel comfortable about who he his. He will generally break up with you. Men's identity is very wrapped up in one they do.
High status doesn't necessarily mean big income. It means high status in your particular venue of life.
Amy Alkon at February 23, 2005 7:15 AM
High status doesn't necessarily mean big income. It means high status in your particular venue of life.
God, I hope so.
Doug at February 23, 2005 9:48 AM
“Fat women know this. They're just rather pretend it's not true, which takes a lot less effort than prying the fork out of their jaws, reading this book, and dragging their wide loads to the gym.”
How ignorant. This is true for some fat women, but others happen to have metabolic or thyroid disorders and quite simply cannot help being fat - no matter how much they diet and exercise. Fat women have enough problems without having to constantly battle the “lazy pig” stereotype.
GCS at March 5, 2005 8:15 PM
Let's be honest: How many fat women out there (much of America!) are fat because they have some metabolic disease, and how many because they eat tons of crappy food and lie around watching TV and drive everywhere?
Amy Alkon at March 5, 2005 9:21 PM
Men are stictly visual and women are stickly looking for social status. Social status has many forms besides money. ie. ugly poor musicians who
date models. This is an innate instinct. This is why you see 14 year girls chasing rockers. You never see 14 year old boys chasing female rockers.
Popularity is another form of social status. Women
are inheritly insecure.
tom at March 10, 2005 1:28 PM
My, my, you sound like another one of those any right wingers on his crusader against lawyers and complainer.
Dan at May 4, 2005 9:16 AM
Huh? Dan, what are you smoking at 9:16am? Once more in English?
Tom, ugly, poor musicians do not date models.
Amy Alkon at May 4, 2005 9:38 AM
this is to any one who knows some info on psychology. i am currently researching the ideal figure for my coursework which is a large part of my overall grade. so i would appreciate it if anyone knows any sites that have straight chubby chasers on it as i need to research them as they are a deviation from the social norm. so if anyone knows any sites could they please post them on this site. thanks very much. X
Michelle at July 30, 2005 2:21 PM
Fat women show they dont care for themselves. Eating unhealthy... no... eating like a pig is not attractive. Nor are the results of someone who eats like a pig. Then there is narcissim of the fat women. They eat like pigs, then expect to be worshipped like a Mesopotamian goddess. Its so sickening, and fat women don't even see it because they are so arrogant. A fat women statistically is bad at giving birth and helping produce a healthy child as well. So there are many factors as to why most men, men in their right mind find fat women repulsives. The question is now; why is there such a growing epidemic of fat women now with this arrogant goddess attitude?
Luke at June 29, 2007 10:27 PM
Amy..U are dumb bitch. Are u telling me no aspect of ur life is unhealthy? I hope u blow up to be 500 lbs because of hypothyroidism
Toccara at October 19, 2007 11:32 AM
Amy Alkon, you look like a drag queen that forgot to take his estrogen. Your neck looks like the Incredible Hulks, your nose looks like Ronald Mcdonald and your entire face looks like Danny Devito.. and yet you have so much critism on someone who is overweight???? you look like a pile of cow dung and that should be illegal! At least a lot of fat or chubby women have pretty faces which is more than I can say for you.
Peace out homie
michele at October 19, 2007 6:18 PM
Peace out homie
I may look like a drag queen modeled in cow dung, but at least I'm not insincere!
Amy Alkon at October 19, 2007 6:29 PM
All gay men are identical. All overweight men/women are identical. All hetero women are identical. Right! I forgot: All men in general have the same needs and desires and are also identical. Because stereotypes are thorough and accurate descriptions of all individuals in a group.
pants at October 19, 2007 9:51 PM
Is there some "fat acceptance" blog sending you all over here?
People have commonalities, and I those of you who just started posting on this entry don't want to believe that, I take a science and data-based approach to what I write, and there are biological and psychological generalities that apply to wide swaths of people. Yes, there are individuals who vary. For example, there are some men who are very attracted to obese women. Most are not. This means it serves women to not let themselves become obese if they can help it.
Amy Alkon at October 20, 2007 12:48 AM
You know what they say. You can't judge a heifer by the flick of her tail.
Arvin at October 20, 2007 1:04 AM
I don't believe its discrimination. I have always been into fitness and yes I do find overweight women to be unattractive. If they have no health problems, why can't they exercise just like everyone else who works out. All you need is a pair of shoes to lose weight. Put one foot in front of the other and move. It's not rocket science.
John at August 12, 2008 4:05 PM
well they're monsters. but they are delicious monsters.
Delicious Monster at December 9, 2008 8:25 AM
Phantom Linked, I guess
Link at June 17, 2009 2:13 PM
So I heard you IP banned someone who disagreed with your sexist views of women.
Oh no, are you gonna call me a fat Amazon bitch now because I pointed out some of your blatant bullshit.
How is someone as worthless as you getting work in this economy. I find it hard to believe there aren't more likable and intelligent people out there. Intelligent especially, being you can even defend your own moronic views without assuming that only fat people took offense to this horseshit.
Mafi at June 17, 2009 10:38 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2005/02/19/the_hag_rule.html#comment-1654354">comment from MafiI didn't IP ban them because they disagreed with me -- disagreement and the disagreeable are welcome here. In fact, I was just laughing with my boyfriend about how a commenter named Martin once called me "a clueless cunt" and I thought that was funny.
You angry ladies are IP banned here because you sent people over to spam my comments section -- there were several calls to action for that on your site. Individuals who come here are welcome to state their minds. Groups sending people over to try to muck up my site can kiss my pert, skinny white ass.
Oh, and you're IP-banned, too.
P.S. Why is it that none of you are able to post in your own names? I write everything I post or print in my own full name because I stand behind everything I say.
Oh, and regarding this from your comment turd, Mafi: "Oh no, are you gonna call me a fat Amazon bitch now because I pointed out some of your blatant bullshit."
I have yet to see where you did anything of the kind. No substance, just sentences like the above. It's a pity you didn't point out my allegedly "blatant bullshit" before I heaved your IP. Oh well!
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 10:51 PM
How did we get diverted to talking about what people find attractive? How about having an intelligent discussion. This blog is that Amy doesn't think it's discrimination for a casino to only want to hire attractive and slim waitresses and waiters.
Don't we have enough problems because of the media telling us that being a size 10 is your route to happiness? Oh, and your only ticket to getting a life partner is in a DD bust.
Oh please. Judging people soley on their appearance IS discrimination (even if it's not legally defined as such) and this casino is sending out entirely the wrong message to men AND women.
Harley at November 18, 2009 5:01 PM
Discrimination is what you do when you choose the ham sandwich instead of the turkey or decide to go home instead of having the second drink at a bar. Establishments want attractive servers. If you could have a gorgeous couch instead of an ugly one, would you take the ugly one?
Reread my words above: "Imagine that: They want hot women waitressing in a casino. Gasp! Not every woman is hot enough to be an Atlantic City cocktail waitress. Gasp! Every profession in the world is not open to everybody. For example, I can't ever be a supermodel. Gasp! Double gasp!"
I also can't be starting forward for the Knicks or even assbackwards for the last team in the NBA. Boofrigginghoo, as my late friend Marnye Oppenheim would've said.
Amy Alkon at November 18, 2009 5:32 PM
Give the world a gift, and drop dead amy. You look like a fucking horse!!!!! I have taken shits better looking then you.
sassy at March 20, 2010 11:50 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2005/02/19/the_hag_rule.html#comment-1703174">comment from sassyI guess this means you won't be hiring me to man your casino!
It's funny -- a fat acceptance website is sending people over here. They don't like the "lookist" attitude of this casino -- or mine. So...they...attack my looks!
PS If you're only part of the "fat acceptance" site because you feel you have no choice other than to accept your fat, I suggest you read Gary Taubes and Dr. Michael Eades (proteinpower.com/drmike), because you really needn't be fat unless you're one of the rare ones with some disorder causing you to be fat. It's carbohydrates that cause the insulin secretion that puts on fat -- sugar, flour, starchy vegetables like potatoes.
I put a friend on a no-carb diet for a month, and he ate only eggs, bacon, hamburger and steak, and lost 17 lbs without exercise and had his blood pressure go from high to normal. He now incorporates buttered green vegetables and salad with dressing (no diet dressing, none of those sugar substitutes), and has a glass of wine here and there, and continues to lose weight with ease, sans suffering.
Amy Alkon at March 21, 2010 12:03 AM
Super Bowl teams with quarterbacks who played at Cal-Berkeley are 0-9.
Velvet Siem at February 10, 2011 10:44 AM
I agree with most of this article except the claim that fat women are in denial about their unattractiveness and expect to be worshiped like fertility goddesses. This may be true of a handful of delusional fat acceptance bloggers, but the vast majority of obese women know very well that are unhealthy and unattractive. Most would be very happy to be otherwise, and many have in fact tried very hard to lose weight. The problem is, bad habits can be very difficult to break, be they alcohol, drugs, nicotine or fast food. And while you can live without heroin or alcohol, you can't go cold turkey on food. I'm not saying that it's impossible to lose weight (I lost nearly 100 pounds two years ago), but it would be nice if it were recognized that an addiction to food can be just as much a monkey on your back as an addiction to hard drugs, and that most fat women aren't thrilled with their bodies and resentful that they're not seen as pinups.
Laura at March 5, 2011 12:44 PM
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