Why Should Prostitution Be Illegal?
Yes, I know it is illegal. But why should it be?
I read a rather dull discussion about this in the Western Standard, but I thought the question they posed -- "Some may consider prostitution immoral. But is it moral to keep it illegal?" -- was interesting.
My position? It's your body, sell it if you want to. How can anybody have any right to tell you what you can and can't do with it?
Also, I would venture a case could be made for laws against prostitution being yet another invasion of religion into secular life. I mean, are there really atheists galore out there who care if you want to pay or be paid to get fucked?
And finally, I would go so far as calling seeing a prostitute the moral thing to do -- especially vis a vis giving some unsuspecting date the impression she's going to get more than laid; ie, a relationship.
An old boyfriend of mine who always had some beautiful crazy girl banging on his door at 3 a.m. when it became clear there was no relationship in their future finally took my advice and called up an escort service. His only complaint to me: "Why didn't you make me do this sooner?"
Wouldn't want it going on in my neighborhood.
Crid at August 18, 2006 3:02 AM
Prostitution, drugs, and gambling have to be kept illegal. If they were legalized there would be a near-collapse of the US criminal "justice" system. Many prisons would close; guards and police officers out of work. Lawyers, judges, and the rest of the inquisitors would loose big salaries. Street crime would drop dramatically when the price of crack/smack/meth and the rest of the junk becomes cheap and available. If people want to kill themselves with this shit, let 'em have it!
Bill Henry at August 18, 2006 3:32 AM
As I understand the concept, you are paying your escort to go away afterwards.
Matt M at August 18, 2006 5:58 AM
I'd be curious to see how things actually work for the people who live in Amsterdam, who have quite liberal laws with respect to prostitution and some drugs. Anybody know anyone that's lived there or visited for a while?
Canada at August 18, 2006 6:00 AM
Would be interesting to see what kind of legal standards would be applied to prostitutes. Should they be licensed? Requiring them to have period checkups for STDs and forfeit their license should they come up positive? How about the drug addicted ones, who keep making crack baby after crack baby, only to force them into the welfare system, so we should be paying for their kids born out of stupidity and selfishness?
Patrick at August 18, 2006 6:47 AM
Crid, it probably already is. Escorts with outcalls.
And we pay for the crack babies whether or not prostitution is legal.
Amy Alkon at August 18, 2006 6:55 AM
"It's your body, sell it if you want to."
I sell my body every day, and the effects are obvious to me. I have to read so much for work that last year I finally had to buy glasses. I sit at the computer so much, many weeks it seems I live on Advil to deal with the neck pain. I work with so many friggin' lunatics, some days I feel like I need inpatient psychiatric care.
Sex workers get crabs now and then. Big wup. Sounds like a caberet to me.
Lena at August 18, 2006 8:22 AM
Crid is right. I'm for legalization... sort of. Escort services? No problem. Door-to-door pot delivery services. Hey, sign me up. But street walkers and dealers loitering on my doorstep (or in the nearest working class neighborhood), well, I'd have to think twice about that.
kevin_m at August 18, 2006 8:44 AM
This is the problem here... prostitutes rarely sell their own bodies. I mean, they rarely work for themselves. There is usually a controlling pimp, who exploits her and takes her money so that she has to continue to do his bidding.
To frame this in such a way that says it is empowering to women, or that no one should be able to tell them what they can or can not do with their bodies is being simplistic. They being bought sold by men to men with no say in the matter. That is the reality of it. To think this would change if it were legalized is not dealing with reality.
Starfox5253 at August 18, 2006 8:52 AM
If it was legal, prostitutes could go to the police if their pimp was ripping them off or abusing them. Assuming they would even have to bother with pimps at all.
And if prostitution was legal, that doesn't mean they would be standing on anyone's local neighborhood street corner. Laws against it are so ineffective, I imagine there would be the same number of prostitutes - in all the same places - there are now. Anyway, I suppose there would be zoning laws and local ordinances about it.
Pirate Jo at August 18, 2006 9:22 AM
Legalize it.
I remember having a teacher in high school who, among other things, taught us that you can't legislate morality. Well, you *can,* but she meant, ultimately, not successfully.
People will do things that are perceived to be "immoral" by others. Outlawing them drives them underground, and makes them more dangerous for everyone involved. Which, to those who think them "immoral" is probably just fine -- except for the times it does leech above ground and there are, say, babies. Or people caught in the crossfire.
Legalizing them means you can regulate them, as the Dutch have with certain drugs and with prostitution. Last I checked, the Netherlands have not a) been struck down by God, b) collapsed under the weight of their immorality.
Legal or not, prostitution has and always will exist. You'd think it would make more sense to just regulate it and make it safe -- and profitable -- for any number of groups, including the guv'ment, who'd be able to collect tax.
But why should they do *anything* that actually makes sense?
Plus, then someone would have to admit that women have a choice with what they do with their bodies, and then we're all up shit creek.
Kitt at August 18, 2006 9:35 AM
Back in the 80s, I lived on Eldridge Street just south of Houston, which was the site of a booming sex market. It was no big deal. The girls looked great... mini-skirts, stilletos, big hair. I did feel sorry for their big juicy FROZEN butts in the dead of the NYC winter, however. Streetwalking in LA is so much easier around the xmas holidays, don't you think?
Lena Cuisina, Aging Academic Whore at August 18, 2006 9:36 AM
I still think that this issue is being framed in a dangerous way. Many posters have talked about a woman's body like it some sort of commodity or something wholly apart from her being. This is just foolish to think that a person's body is separate from who they are and what they think of themselves. Prostitution is damaging to the women who are forced by naivety or drug use or lack of self-worth into practicing it.
No matter if it is legalized, it is still damaging to women and society. Usually people that want to legalize this or that don't realize fully the unintended consequences.
Starfox5253 at August 18, 2006 10:01 AM
Who gives a fuck?
Roger at August 18, 2006 10:20 AM
Even though you seem to be well-intentioned, your attitude towards women is quite paternalistic, Starfox. I think women would be far better off making their own decision about what to do with their bodies.
A lot of men can't tell the difference between protection and exploitation, but they think they know best about everything and think women are children that can't possibly take care of themselves. The fact that women have been brainwashed to buy into this is the reason pimps exist in the first place.
Canada at August 18, 2006 10:51 AM
Thank you, Canada. What horseshit. What Starfox doesn't seem to realize is that women are giving it away for free for the same reasons and that's not illegal. Does she think stripping or working for minimum wage should be illegal too? Cause those also can have crappy consequences. For this and all the other my body, my mind, my choice laws I say, Thanks, but no thanks. We don't need or want a mommy government to prevent us from hurting ourselves. The governments job is to prevent OTHERS from hurting us.
I'm not sure I'm in for legalization, because that would probably involve some government monitering or regulation, and we all know how effective and logical that usually is. From what I read/hear, decriminalization is the way to go. I was reading an article about germany's prostitution and they apparently have bath house type places that serve as brothels. One of the owners said that they weren't regulated but if a girl got something, they put her out of work asap. They said it was basically like any other business: if the customer is unhappy, he/she complains and their business goes away. If you got food poisoning from a restaurant, you wouldn't go back and you'd tell your friends.
Christina at August 18, 2006 12:19 PM
> The fact that women have been
> brainwashed to buy into this
> is the reason pimps exist in
> the first place.
Wow, you know too much to go back and pretend! Helen Reddy retired to Laughlin a few years ago, but you can find her new autobiography in the remainder bin of your neighborhood Borders. She's still an embryo. With a long, long way to go!
Starfox, it's great that you have concern with individual hearts that may be struggling with weakness. But the rest of us have to be protected from the consequences of this misconduct. Policy is never going to protect beating hearts from that kind of problem.
> Legalizing them means you can
> regulate them
As a libertarian, I don't want to regulate them. I want them to stay out of my neighborhood and stop fucking with my property values.
PS- Amy, I do have a neighbor who has Thursday night visits (6:30pm) from shapely young women. He serenades them for 90 minutes with Luther Vandross, and they leave with the demeanor of a office secretary after a day's work. I've resolved to take snapshots of them to share with the guy's wife.
Crid at August 18, 2006 12:29 PM
Crid - "I've resolved to take snapshots of them to share with the guy's wife."
This is the sentiment of a libertarian? What your Luther Vandross-playing neighbor does hardly seems to affect you. What's your interest here?
Justin Case at August 18, 2006 2:35 PM
I can understand how you'd have a problem with the Luther Vandross.
You don't know what anyone's marital arrangement is, and some people know their spouse is having affairs and would rather not acknowledge it. Maybe they don't like having sex and the spouse gets it elsewhere, maybe that's the deal for something else they get from the spouse -- like his or her salary (his, usually). I think, if you're paying attention, and want to know, you can know what your partner's up to.
And regarding the "it could happen anywhere!" notion, they aren't allowed to sell liquor from a shopping cart on my corner either. And drugs aren't legal at the moment, but that doesn't seem to stop people from taking them in the bushes across the street from my house.
Amy Alkon at August 18, 2006 6:39 PM
Victimless crimes, like prostitution, drugs, illegal immigration, gambling, and so on, work fine for responsible, rational adults practicing them in moderation. That's the theory. But in real-world situations, things go wrong, there's friction in the machines, and it builds up. People can't handle, they get in over their heads. They become violent, or become the victims of violence, one vice begets another.
If you happen to live in a pristine, upper-middle class neighborhood or a trendy urban hipster district, it probably makes little difference if your neighbor does a few lines of coke on the weekends or sends out for an escort, no harm done. But if you live in the same neighborhood as the dealer, and the pimp, and the junkie, and the flophouse room where 5 illegal imigrants sleep stacked like cordwood, you might see the big picture. You see the trash in the streets and the used condoms and dirty needles in the gutter, and you hear noises at night that you hope are not gunfire, but sometimes they are. You find that some people can't hack it. Some people, faced with temptation, give in, get caught up in the hopelessness of it all, because that's all they see.
And you could say that's their problem, not mine. And it is, for a little while. Until the pimp is lurking around your children's high school, or the crack-baby, now a teenager, shoves a gun in your temple and demands your wallet.
May be it has something to do with the national character. Maybe the Dutch are just better adapted to handle those things. I suspect legal prostitution in our consumption-crazed, all-or-nothing American society just plain wouldn't work.
Jeb at August 18, 2006 7:10 PM
If you are interested in prostitution-related statistics, check the website mmp.org and read the links on the Background page. One example is that as many as 85 to 90 percent of street prostitutes have been victims of sexual molestation.Talk about self-esteem issues!
As a side note, I remember that the woman who founded the Mary Magdalene Project in the 1970s was a Presbyterian minister. I see that there is not one mention of her name on the website--how refreshing to see that the founder is/was not on an ego trip. Anyway, she interviewed and helped thousands of women who wanted to get off the streets, and the results of her research are a compelling read.
Jane C. at August 18, 2006 8:01 PM
Knowing that women get into to prostitution because they've been sexually abuse doesn't mean we have to be more patient with the trade.
Here's a really strong point:
> vis a vis giving some unsuspecting
> date the impression she's going to
> get more than laid; ie, a
> relationship.
But can't we just tell young women that men are different? Girls with loving fathers in the home always seem to understand when you explain it the first time. THat doesn't mean their hearts never get broken, but it's at least a smaller break when they know at the beginning of a date that men's minds work differently.
Having women in prostitution seems like a high price to pay for not wanting to give them the bad news about the differences between men and women.
Crid at August 18, 2006 10:54 PM
Justin: Long story, send me an email and I'll give you the deets. But it involves my property and his misconduct in multiple contexts... Libertarian principles are being observed on my end. The guy is guilty of other violations... Things for which an Alkon-type person would have reacted very badly. If you catch my drift. My concern is not with what the spouse would or would not care to know. If he wanted to leave my property out of it, it'd be OK.
Crid at August 18, 2006 11:02 PM
Yes, Jane and Jeb, and give some people alcohol and they'll drive drunk. But because some abuse it doesn't mean you should get to take away the rights of all.
Amy Alkon at August 19, 2006 12:49 AM
The goddess writes:
Actually, when I asked that question, I was still wondering along the lines of what would happen if prostitution was legal. You know, licensing them, compelling them to pass health exams and be clear of all STDs before turning them out to ply their trade. You may not approve off mandatory drug testing, or the fact that drugs are illegal, but now all of a sudden we have a compelling interest in recreational habits of others, since they could produce a new person who could be adversely affected by their bad decisions. How about this? Produce one crack baby, and your hooker's license is permanently suspended, unless you undergo voluntary sterilization.
Patrick at August 19, 2006 4:02 AM
"How about this? Produce one crack baby, and your hooker's license is permanently suspended, unless you undergo voluntary sterilization."
I think it's time to stop playing Daddy in bed, Patrick. It's gone to your head.
Lena at August 19, 2006 8:07 AM
Crid- Sounds like there's a nasty backstory there to which your initial post didn't refer. Unfortunately bad neighbors can create all kinds of problems, and it sounds like in this case they're the sort of problems that can't be easily addressed in a more direct fashion. Crappy situation, hope there's an acceptable resolution in the future.
Justin Case at August 19, 2006 10:16 AM
> I'd be curious to see how things actually work
> for the people who live in Amsterdam, who have
> quite liberal laws with respect to
> prostitution and some drugs.
> Anybody know anyone that's
> lived there or visited for a while?
Prostitution is a legal and registered profession throughout much of Europe, not only in Amsterdam. It doesn't ruffle feathers here nearly as much as in North America. The only conspicuous parties are the tourists (often American, male and female) who come to the red-light districts to gawk.
The drug policies are also pretty tolerant and liberal, especially for so-called soft drugs such as cannibus.
Somebody blasted me a while back for suggesting that things are more civilized here in Europe. Well, here's yet another example.
Marie at August 19, 2006 11:10 AM
Marie-thanks for the info. My parents grew up in Europe and I've travelled there a bit, and the attitude and culture are what I would call more adult than what we have in North America.
I think we're trying to achieve that in Canada (I live in Toronto), but there is a very strong push from politicians in the US to stop us from enacting a lot of socially liberal laws. We got gay marriage through which is good, but our attempt to decriminalize pot makes the drug enforcement types down there pretty upset. Now we do things in typical Canadian style which is by not rocking the boat, but doing whatever the hell we want. I've heard from sources in this city that the police just choose not to bother arresting anyone for pot possesion, because they know the judges are just going to throw the cases out-they clog up the justice system.
Canada at August 19, 2006 1:34 PM
Jane C.- I'm not as impressed with the prostitutes/abuse statistics as you are. From what I can gather, at least one in three kids are sexually abused by the time they're 18. So that's 33% of the population, and we're not including adult victims. Considering that rape is one of the most underreported crimes there is, I'd say a good portion of the adult females in the US have been victims of some sort of sexual abuse. Maybe not 90%, but you also didn't clarify whether these abuses were before or after becoming a prostitute. One would assume that entering that line of work would make the chance of being sexually assulted pretty damned high.
I get that people don't want their property values destroyed, their children victimized, etc. etc. Maybe if our police weren't busy chasing pot dealers and hookers, they'd have more time and money to spend on the child molesters and murderers. There are ways to decriminalize prostitution without making it a free for all, i.e. selling sex isn't illegal, but littering, loitering, disturbing the peace, contributing to the delinquency, etc., IS.
Christina at August 19, 2006 6:04 PM
Uh, ARE.
Christina at August 19, 2006 6:06 PM
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