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Why People Blow Themselves Up
Sunday, on CNN, I read about a female suicide bomber who killed 40 people and maimed others when she blew herself up at a Baghdad university. Can't blame Israel for that one!

But, who or what is to blame? What makes a person blow themself up? I got on Google, and found a piece by Mugisha Mushoka, who grew up in Kenya in a Protestant Christian family with a mother who was and is still very religious. Mushoka, who is no longer Christian or religious, ponders what makes a suicide bomber:

I have watched the CNN clips on how the Islamic fundamentalists are trained to become suicide bombers. Most of these young men come from poverty-ridden households with so much hardship that they find life not worth living. The teachers identify these vulnerable boys and offer them companionship, food and shelter at their training schools. In these schools, the teachers use religion, in this case Islam, to program the boys into robots. When the training is done and they are told to jump, they can only ask how high. The main argument they use is telling the boys that they are fighting for god. They convince them of the Holy War that exists between the Islamic world and the West. They convince them that all their hardships are caused by the West. They convince them that the West is at war with Islam and they should stand up and fight for their religion and their god.

They convince them that the god they are fighting for is powerful, owns the heavens and will extend an olive branch to them when they blow themselves up in the holy war. These young men are thus convinced and after a few years of training, they are ready to perform their first and final mission. They are made to believe they will be met by a couple of virgins in the golden palaces up above as martyrs—heroes of the Holy War. Thus convinced, they blow up women and children from the skies, buses, hotels, churches, mosques and homes. I cannot help but ask myself, if there was no notion of religion that tricked these boys into believing they will have a better life once they died, if they knew that once they blew themselves up NO ONE knows what will happen when they die, if they knew that they might be killing themselves for nothing, would they still blow themselves up? Don't you think they would have asked for some time alone, maybe the rest of their lives, to think about the proposition from the teachers? I think they would. Another observation that comes into the picture is that the teachers don't do the missions themselves. If being a martyr is such a noble thing, shouldn't the teachers lead the way in killing themselves? They know more about the rewards that materialize in the end. They can easily train others to become teachers after they are dead and gone. Don't you think so? Once again, religion is used to deceive and achieve the objectives of a select group of people by taking captive the minds of the exploited individuals.

Once again, the problem seems to be getting through to the brainwashed -- helping people learn to reason. But, how do you break through the wall of irrational thought that is religion? Is it through a slow process of globalization, and having western values seep through into their culture? Hmmm, we're a very religous nation. People here believe in all sorts of unfounded shit. Are we really going to get through to them about how dumb it is to believe in the unproven crap shoveled at them by their particular religion?

Posted by aalkon at February 26, 2007 10:14 AM

Comments

Seems to me it is not just one thing and it is NOT insanity either.

The old SDS was not a bunch of impoverished 20somethings fighting for 'freedom' by any definition. They were a bunch of spoiled rich kids throwing tantrums with explosives. Oh, and the denial by many that they were actually agents of a foreign government (or the unsuspecting followers of those agents) should have evaporated when the Soviet Archives were opened for all to study. For some reason only David Horowitz seems to be interested in that story these days.

We also had people lighting themselves on fire to protest the action in Vietnam. Like a twisted version of the monks in Tibet protesting Chinese rule. Had a Mormon at the Pentagon do it. Later Penn Gillette saw one torch himelf at a protest and die running to the fountain to put himself out, and others.

Seriously, there is not going to be a "one answer" for this. None of the suicide pilots of 9/11 were ignorant or poor and neither were their leaders.

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 26, 2007 7:37 AM

Wait, Amy - are you suggesting that (gasp) people will deceive others into doing crazy things in the name of religion or some other fanciful belief? Shocking, really.

Posted by: anonimouse at February 26, 2007 8:00 AM

Another reason that is hardly mentioned is the widespread practice of cousin marriage within the M.E. It goes back to the whole extended family issue. True loyalty to marrying someone who is VERY close to your family and tribe.

Iraq under Hussein (who married his first cousin Sajida Talfah) was secular under M.E. standards. It is believed that 75 to 85% of the whole population still practiced cousin marriage. There is a religious subtext behind the practice. The usual suspect of imshallah. It is God's will that can defy the basic understanding of human genetics.

Also, Europe at one time, thought it was normal for the practice of cousin marriages. Why the change? The industrial revolution and secularism. Singles no longer isolated in remote villages can marry other singles from neighboring cities, regions and certain cases from another countries through the use of technological innovations such as trains, automobiles, passenger ships (waves of immigration) and later jet liners. There are technological advances used in the M.E., but secularism (western version of the separation of mosque and state) is a no show.

Yes, it is very politically incorrect to mention this issue, but the offspring from cousins marrying cousins is not going to be the best and the brightest.

Posted by: Joe at February 26, 2007 8:40 AM

True loyalty to marrying someone who is VERY close to your family and tribe.

Just like in NYC where you can be beaten to a pulp for dating outside of your neighborhood?

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 26, 2007 8:43 AM

other countries

Posted by: Joe at February 26, 2007 8:46 AM

The pre-Civil War standards of dating/courting someone from a neighboring county or state?

Posted by: Joe at February 26, 2007 8:51 AM

Yes, it is very politically incorrect to mention this issue, but the offspring from cousins marrying cousins is not going to be the best and the brightest

Especially not if they've been doing it for centuries.

And we're all about politically incorrect here.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 26, 2007 9:12 AM

How about 1,400 years? Even longer in some cases. It also varied during waves of conquests and calm. The whole exchanging of conquered peoples as slaves. In many cases, I was mistaken for a Circassian (former slaves of Europe or the Caucasus regions) by many Arabs.

My reason for mentioning the politically incorrect statement was the climate of the MSM. Since the invasion of 3/2003 there have been only 2 articles alluding to the possible failure of the Iraq democracy project to the high percentage of cousin marriages.

Posted by: Joe at February 26, 2007 10:00 AM

Joe,

Is there some data suggesting that the Kurds rarely marry cousins? Their political structue seems to be doing just fine by Western standards, but they got a little head-start over the rest of Iraq with that GHWB air cap that was continued under WJC.

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 26, 2007 10:14 AM

Maybe in some parts of NYC - but in truth, not common. I'd say that EVERY couple I know has one of the 2 following traits - but NOT both either Mixed Race OR Mixed Religion!!

Posted by: kg2v at February 26, 2007 10:19 AM

Why is the problem religion?

The problem is that people are being taught to do evil. The fact that it's taught in the name of religion is a detail. Is it less evil if they blow themselves up for Basque independence or environmental harmony?

The problem isn't people believing in "all sorts of unfounded shit." The problem is people teaching other people to do evil, for any reason.

Posted by: Matt K at February 26, 2007 10:39 AM

"the wall of irrational thought that is religion"

The human mind is merely a vehicle for putting ideas into action.

There are only so many ideas a mind can hold and if the only ideas in it are centered on bombs, then what do you expect?

Mental presence does not guarantee rational, emperical results nor similarly grounded goal-setting.

At our Universities, outside of the hard sciences, much of what is taught is at its root unprovable and non-empirical and no better than the gossip one hears at the local bar.

I do a lot of pre-project design work and post-failure forensic analysis and am constantly amazed at how our "most rational" and seemingly successful people either:

(A) Throw out proven designs for something they have not prototyped and tested.

(B) Diverge from proven procedures to diagnose problems in favor of some off the wall idea.

The end result, if they get their way, when reality sets in, is failure. They understand what went wrong and why after the fact, but this did not prevent them from doing poorly before the fact. And it does not prevent them from doing so in the future. And these are highly intelligent people.

All this without the psychopath or the merely criminal also causing problems.

Irrationality is all around us and dwells within each of us and it takes self-discipline to prevent succumbing to it.

Posted by: austin at February 26, 2007 10:41 AM

Oh, the vileness of religion. If only the Arab countries would be like Stalinist Russia or Jacobin France, there would be peace in our time.

Please. The explanation is much more complicated than simply that they believe in an afterlife where they will be rewarded for their deeds. For example, the Arabs have a prominent "honor" culture. This means something different than what we in the West are accustomed. Honor is like gangland respect, a sense of being unashamed of yourself and your family. It is something worth more than life - witness the killing, by their own male relatives, of women who were raped. Perhaps the shame of seeing their culture and ideas trampled underfoot by the West infuriates them, even to the point of trying to cleanse the shame with their blood.

The leaders of these states also benefit greatly from focusing their people's anger outward. Blame everything on the Great Satan, and people ignore the fact that you are lining your own pocketbook with their cash while oppressing them. If you believed that the a country was the source of all of your ills, (for example, being a Jew in Nazi-occupied Europe) wouldn't you want to do anything to get revenge on the enemy?

This is a complicated issue, and there certainly plenty more factors to consider. However, while religion may be a necessary component for suicide bombing, it is not sufficient cause for it happen.

Posted by: OmegaPaladin at February 26, 2007 10:51 AM

It's rare, Guy.

The closer the clans are to Baghdad the practice of cousin marriage is more common. Also, Kurds who marry into multi-tribal frameworks too. It also pertains Iranian-Kurds who have married into Persian and Turkic families. (the more poor and geographically isolated) It goes back to any ethnicities (grouping) exposure to modernization. How they interpret the advantages and in some cases disadvantages of modernity.

The Kurds closely associated with Turkey are far more westernized. The many advantages of Ataturk's secular revolution with the negative drawbacks of Turkish persecution of the various ethnicities. Remember most of the terrorism caused by Kurds during the 1970s and 1980s was geared towards Turkish interests in western Europe. Political terrorism not religious.

Don't forget who was one of the biggest cheerleaders for the Iraq war? Christopher Hitchens. Why? He has been the unpaid spokesperson for the PKK (Kurdistan Workers Party) and an independent Kurdistan since the late 1970s. I've been since 1991, not the PKK, but a sovereign Kurdistan within my limited capacities.

Posted by: Joe at February 26, 2007 11:01 AM

The "honor culture" itself is irrational. If you live rationally, you realize that, for example, if people who are of your same DNA behave horribly to you, they should not be treated as family.

If you believed that the a country was the source of all of your ills, (for example, being a Jew in Nazi-occupied Europe) wouldn't you want to do anything to get revenge on the enemy?

Wafa Sultan pointed out that Jews do not blow up German restaurants. The Israelis don't have a culture of revenge -- they just want to be able to go to the local pizzaria without worrying that they'll get blown up. Understandable, huh?

That's why they are able to live in peace with many non-Jews, such as the Druze. If you don't want to kill them, they really don't have a problem with you.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 26, 2007 11:12 AM

Why people blow themselves up ?

Here's an especially cogent argument, with sources and footnotes, nominating certain sexual practises.

Posted by: adrian at February 26, 2007 11:40 AM

Umm.... just to expand on Mushoka's thoughts... Not all suicide bombers are poor. I don't think any of the 9/11 or 7/11 bombers were. Most of them were middle to upper-middle class.

I don't really think it's religion, it's more sexual frustraion. They hate their women, they hate our women, they hate us because we don't hate our women. They probably also have small penises.

Posted by: ElGaboGringo at February 26, 2007 11:59 AM

I think religion helps people fill a need to belong, and if belonging to a particular religion takes selling out rationality, and there's little in the society to encourage more modern, less primitive thinking, people will be very susceptible to believing what they're told.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 26, 2007 12:03 PM

So, let me get this straight.

Only societies where people do not produce offspring from some ratio of people who are not too genetically related are capable of forming civilization?

That might explain Ireland, but it falls apart at England.

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 26, 2007 12:18 PM

One problem with his thesis:
Most of the known "suicide bombers" are not local poor boys, but rich boys from other countries. They have more in common with the utopian anarchists of the 1920's than with any religion.

Most of the true "insurgents" are local poor boys probably just join the militia to do something, the same reason that boys here join the NPA or boys in LA join the Crips or boys in Colombia join FARC: They are street boys without jobs who like excitement.

Posted by: Nancy Reyes at February 26, 2007 2:06 PM

I've often thought that self immolation would be far more effective than suicide bombing. It's more like martyrdom, so it's on higher moral ground, and it's extremely embarrassing for the host country when people keep doing it. It's much less of a mixed message. Presumably the victim would get exactly the same number of virgins afterwards, too.

Posted by: Norman at February 26, 2007 2:09 PM

I lived in Turkey for a year, as a foreign exchange student. I spent that time living with a Turkish family and had the opportunity to experience the Middle Eastern temperment from a unique perspective.

There is no middle-class in the M.E. There are the very affluent, and the dirt poor. Those fortunate enough to come from wealth are highly educated and are normally considered "moderate". They rarely attend the mosque, except for high holy days, sort of like those of us who might go for Christmas and Easter.

However, for the poor, the mosque is an important part of their lives, for it is here that they receive some sense of purpose and importance. Their imams are truly their spiritual leaders, and can influence them to degrees which even surpass the most fanatical cult followers of our culture.

Life is cheap in the M.E. Unless you have lived there, it is hard to reconcile this element in your own existance. Perhaps the best example in our country would be the gang cultures of Los Angeles or New Orleans. However, in the M.E. it is far more pervasive than anything we can identify with.

On any given day, you will find "ordinary" citizens dead on the streets, murdered for money, showing lack of respect for another, or for any number of trivial reasons. Nobody really cares. It's been that way for centuries. Sort of makes me think how the "Wild West" might have been.

I remember going to a soccer game in the town I was living in, and being surprised that the field was surrounded by a huge barbed-wire fence, along with the fact that the players came up from tunnels inside of it. I asked my friend why this was so, and he said, "Oh, last year the officials made some bad calls and the spectators came out of the stands and killed and dismembered them".

While there have been examples of well-educated Muslims dying in heinous attrocities, and what is more heinous than 9/11, I would venture to say that the overwhelmingly large percentage of homicide bombers are simply young, ignorant children who just want to do something that seems important, even in death.

I don't believe that in-breeding has as much to do with the death culture as countless centuries of despair and worthlessness. True self-esteem is in short supply in the M.E., and that in itself can lead to all sorts of horrific outcomes.

Posted by: Curt Matern at February 26, 2007 2:23 PM

People here believe in all sorts of unfounded shit. Are we really going to get through to them about how dumb it is to believe in the unproven crap shoveled at them by their particular religion?

Not as long as their movies keep winning Oscars.

Posted by: Jim Treacher at February 26, 2007 2:31 PM

Agreed, Curt.

I lived in Egypt for 2 years. Traveled extensively through the various M.E. nations. I've stayed in parts for months, but not consecutively from 1991 to 2003.

I've done my fare share of stepping over puddles of blood in the streets. Witnessed blood feuds over the most insignificant offenses. Numerous times, I had a less than 50% chance of returning to my apartment, hotel room or my host's home uninjured or alive. There were probably more incidents, but I was unaware of them at the time. Who needs extreme sports, when there is the Middle East?

Posted by: Joe at February 26, 2007 3:00 PM

One of the 25 things Dave Barry learned in 50 years:


7. They can hold all the peace talks they want, but there will never be peace in the Middle East. Billions of years from now, when Earth is hurtling toward the Sun and there is nothing left alive on the planet except a few microorganisms, the microorganisms living in the Middle East will be bitter enemies.

-- http://www.piffe.com/jokes/25things.phtml

Posted by: Norman at February 26, 2007 11:29 PM

For a whole different emerging religion and discussion, check out this Reason discussion.

The Gorists have arrived to defend their savior and his urban sprawl jet set lifestyle.

Modern tything* is discussed too.

Can't wait for their version of commandos, Earth First, arrive to advocate the burning of SUVs and mansions not occupied by 'environmentalists'. Should be interesting.

*carbon credits

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 27, 2007 6:00 AM

Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 27, 2007 6:13 AM

Are you printing up special cards for his SUV ;)

Here is a blurb about a closet greenie.

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 27, 2007 6:23 AM

You're not giving enough weight to the sexual frustration angle.

Polygamy combined with strict traditional notions sexuality results in significant amounts of young men with little chance of marrying - or even getting any, uh, relief. Yes, this overlaps the economic polarization - the haves can support the extended polygamous family, thus leaving poorer guys spouseless.

This is why the Muslim vision of the afterlife fed to would-be terrorists is heavy on material - and specifically sexual - pleasures. Forty virgins, etc. It's not even sublimated into a vision of "spiritual ecstasy" as it is in stories of various (usually female) Christian saints.

Posted by: Ben-David at February 27, 2007 9:18 AM

"Yes, it is very politically incorrect to mention this issue, but the offspring from cousins marrying cousins is not going to be the best and the brightest."

Not really, Joe.
Seems to be a bit of an American myth for complicated reasons. (Also, cf Darwin's grandparents - first cousins.)


Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 27, 2007 10:06 AM

I've heard that inbreeding can increase incidence of good qualities as surely as bad ones, but the bad are so horrific that it's not worth risking in humans.

Also heard that birth defects are the etymological source of the modern word "monster."

Posted by: Crid at February 27, 2007 10:18 AM

This was a good thread.

Posted by: Crid at February 27, 2007 11:07 AM

Jody,

I've should have explained further on the principles of exogamy and endogamy among large and social groups. Open versus closed societies.

Has the problem of recessive genetic disorders found in variant genes ever came up in these myths? Or the dynamics of various repetition of inter marriages within closed off tribes over the centuries? Vast majorities of the population practicing c.m.? Not 50%, but 75 to 85%.

The dynamics are slightly different within the extended family-tribal structures within the M.E. There are many cases of double cousins situations over the centuries. Out of all the various tribes… the Bedouin are more isolated and smaller in numbers to track their lineages. My time spent with various Bedouin tribes, I would try to discuss their very complex family lines, delicately. You talk about their families-extended tribe dynamics one moment and then discuss other matters, because you will arouse their suspicions if you solely focus on their families/tribe. Right now, I am an expert on goat herding in desert climates. How to properly groom and breed your camels. Emergency desert dentistry. I was shocked on the numerous incidents of double cousins appearing in their vast family trees. It was one of my responsibilities to track genetic disorders, their root causes and have the Mds treat them properly along with the other minor medical problems. Many cases of Epidermolysis bullosa. The tribes with less occurrences of genetic disorders were based on the positive aspects of modernity. Marriages outside the Bedouin to city dwellers. Interracial marriages too. Technological advances. I was staying in a tent with portable air conditioners. Mobile generators. Laptops. Personal satellite communications systems to track the tribe’s vast international holdings and oil commodities.

Even the Labour government is trying to stop the practice of cousin marriage within their communities of high concentrations of Pakistanis. I believe it is 55% of UK Pakistanis practice cousin marriage. Similar genetic disorders are occurring in these communities. To a lesser degree.

Cousin marriage is not the sole responsibility of the problems within Iraq. My past posts are examples of other reasons. This is the first time I mentioned the topic of cousin marriage. There are other issues of permissible (by religious authority) sexual abuse on young girls and boys I haven't even begun to cover.

The practice of cousin marriage is on the wane in other M.E. nations. In the past, I've mentioned in one case were I was offered 3 marriage proposals. There were other proposals in other countries. I'm not affiliated to any tribe or the faith, but why did they offer? Their answers varied from my social standing, education and my atheism. I've dated plenty of American Muslim women from the secular to conservative. Not one of their family members ever had a problem with me. Even the conservative girls refused to wear the veils. They would wear a less extreme version during high holidays. Why? Modernity.

What year did Darwin's grandparents' marry? Before or after the Industrial Revolution? What was the popular mode of transportation of the period? Many cousin marriages were arranged based on the isolation of communities before mass transportation. I have plenty of examples of my ancestors marrying their first cousins prior to Italy’s Risorgimento of 1862, but it stopped. Why? Modernity.

I was going to apply further posts on Iraq's problems, but was too busy in the "Hey, Thanks George" post, teaching someone on why the Kurds will not join forces with the Shias to kill the Sunnis.

Posted by: Joe at February 27, 2007 5:00 PM

Well, you guys are explaining how ireland was the only island society that never developed it's own seagoing capability quite well. However, England and the othe human populated, inbred, islands defy your assertions.

Posted by: Guy Montag at February 27, 2007 6:11 PM

Guy or Anyone,

It matters on how the island, region, or civilization adapts itself over the period of upheavals or changes. Also, history plays an important key.

When was the last foreign occupation of England? Were there differences between the Angles-Saxons and the Normans? Did England change after the Norman conquests? Besides the Normans, who else conquered England? The Romans. Was Pre-Roman Britain different from after the Roman conquest? The history of the British is based on adaptation. Was the British Empire the same in 1783 than 1939? It adapted over the decades. It inherited new ideas from the conquered lands and implemented institutions in the various colonies.

Why is India in a much better shape than its neighbor Pakistan? Both were occupied by the British. Both were liberated in 1947. India adopted the governmental institutions and the British parliamentary system. Pakistan has some cosmetic institutions and adapted the British military as a model for Pakistan. That is it.

Why do the Kurdish controlled areas less violent than the Shia and Sunni? The Kurdish version of Islam is Shafi'i, which is a sub group of Sunni Islam. Shafi'i is very conservative and very orthodox in its view of Islam. Why do Kurds see a secular-nation state as a solution? Instead of an Islamic-Theocratic state? Exposure to Western values by Ataturk's reforms, the Kurdish Diaspora and the possibility of centuries of persecution by brother Muslims such as the Turks, Sunni-Iraqis, Shia-Iraqis and Iranians. A secular-nation state is a definite possibility for the survival of Kurdish culture. Who founded the modern state of Israel? Secular or religious Jews? Why is Israel in better shape than its neighbors?

My biggest fear is if the Kurds do not get a semi-independent state in the next 2 years. You will see a segment of the Kurdish population will look to a religious solution instead of the secular one. The possibility of the non Ba'thist Sunnis and Kurd alliance base with the support of Al Qaeda.

What is the governing principles of the Shia controlled southern regions of Iraq? Similar to US or UK institutions? Here is the 4 point plan of the ruling party of Iraq (Shia controlled Islamic Da'wa party):

1. Absolute sovereignty belongs to God.
2. Islamic injunctions are the basis of legislation. The legislative authority may enact any law not repugnant to Islam.
3. The people, as vice-regents of Allah, are entrusted with legislative and executive powers.
4. The jurist holding religious authority represents Islam. By confirming legislative and executive actions, he gives them legality."

No Bill of Rights? No Magna Carta? No Glorious Revolution? Freedom of Religion? Free Press?

Once the tyrannical and genocidal, but secular Ba'thist structure was gone. What would replace it EFFECTIVELY? The US sponsored government? Or the regional, traditional tribal and the particular variants of Islam?

It is all based on a simple phrase on why certain groups thrive and others do not. "Adapt or Die." Al Qaeda is adapting. Is the US strategy on GWOT? Not all adaptations will be the correct ones in the long run.

Posted by: Joe at February 27, 2007 7:47 PM

"Has the problem of recessive genetic disorders found in variant genes ever came up in these myths? "

Joe,
It most certainly has - you are perfectly correct (if I'm reading you right).

When I was flicking you with my paw earlier, it was less to do with Tay Sachs (as it were) and more to do with the notion that "drooling idiots are the product of cousin couples" which seems to sneeringly inform some modern lingering US marriage law prohibitions.

"My time spent with various Bedouin tribes, I would try to discuss their very complex family lines, delicately."

Extremely good show, Joe! (If only naughty Napoleon Chagnon had understood the crucial concept of "delicately" to obtain accurate results in these matters- which I say with a snarl, since I've been horribly bogged down with him recently for sideways reasons.)

Oh, and I have to add...when you wrote: "Right now, I am an expert on goat herding in desert climates. How to properly groom and breed your camels ."

If I wasn't married, Joe! No snark, I'm a sucker for those sort of lines.

Crid,
You wrote: "Also heard that birth defects are the etymological source of the modern word "monster ."

I've searched this - and I've missed it?

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 28, 2007 6:38 AM

An example under WikiPee's entry for "monster', subsection Religion and mythology. See also http://tinyurl.com/2qu7mh

I've gotten under your skin, haven't I? Don't feel ashamed, Jody. That happens to people sometimes... It's just part of living.

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 12:25 PM

Its understandable Jody.

If you are ever in Turkey with your husband, I recommend checking the camel fighting (Deve Guresi) tournaments every Spring. A female camel in heat is trotted out in front of two males until they are aroused. The female is taken out of the stadium. Then the males fight. I don't know there's just something romantic about it. Just be careful when the spit and urine begin to fly. Literally, watch out.

Posted by: Joe at February 28, 2007 2:08 PM

"An example under WikiPee's entry..."etc

Bugger me if you're not right, Crid! (That was a much better starting entry than the ones I was using - so thanks).

Nah, you don't get under my skin. You were for a bit a while back, but I've adapted!

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 28, 2007 2:16 PM

A bullet was dodged... I was 40% sure. Here's a better one

http://tinyurl.com/3ygj8p

Posted by: Crid at February 28, 2007 4:17 PM

"Here's a better one..."

Exactly where I ended up! (and I've now bookmarked that one - god knows why I haven't used it before..again, thanks Crid.)

Posted by: Jody Tresidder at February 28, 2007 4:48 PM

I NEVER UNDERSTOOD THE LOGIC IN OME TAKEN ONES LIFE SO I'M AGAINST THIS HOWEVER FOLKS MAKE REFERENCES TO THE RELIGON OF ISLAM WITH PLAIN IGNORANCE BECAUSE KNOWING HOW THE RELIGON FORMED AND ITS TRUE MEANING OF SACRIFICE WAS GIVEN TO ENDURE LIFE AND TO MEET IT AT EVERY OBSTACLE OR TRIAL OR TRIBULATION WHICH HIGH REGARD COMES FROM THE FORMING OF STRENGTH PLACED ON ONES LIFE AND THE TRUE ESSENCE OF WALKING WITH GOD BEING AND ULTIMATE SACRIFICE THIS WAS GIVEN TO THE LAND OF THE ARABS WHEN HAGAR MOTHER OF ISMAEL WAS KICKED OUT OUTCASTED BY BEING USED AS A SIMPLE DEVICE AND AS A TEST SEE GOD ALL MIGHTY SERVES THE PURPOSE OF KNOWING WHAT AND WHO BARES TESTIMONY THE STORY OD ISSAC BEING THE SON OF SARAH WAS ALWAYS PUZZLING TO ME OR WAS THERE ANOTHER STORY BEING CONVEYED SEE THE TWO MEN BELONGED TO ABRAHAM AND IN SCRIPTURE IT STATES YOU CAN ONLY LOVE ONE GOD, THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN BY GRACE YOU HAD A YOUNG WOMEN BECOME A SERVANT FOR THE WILL OF GOD TO GIVE LIFE WHEN IT COULDN'T BE CONCIEVED AND THEN A CHILD OF HER'S SHE KEPT AND ONE SHE HAD TO LEAVE IT IS THE CHILD SARAH BIRTHED BY GOD BUT THE BIRTH WAS NEVER EXPLAINED WE JUST BELIEVED IT WAS A MIRACLE AND MAYBE SO BUT MIRACLES COME IN MANY FORMS IF THIS WOMEN WAS NO THREAT TO HAVE TO MAKE ONE WHY SHOULD THEIR BE A THREAT IF GOD GAVE SARAH THE CHILD IN HER WOMB BUT YOU SEE ONCE A STORY HAS BEEN TOLD AND IT IS ALL PLEASING WE NEVER WANT TO SEEK THE MORAL AND IT IS THE IGNORANCE OF MAN AND ITS CULTURE THAT KEEPS THE BELIEF SYSTEM IN PLACE ABRAHAM WAS A GOOD MAN IN A HARD PLACE BUT BY CHOOSING TO DO RIGHT GOD BLESSED HIM AND HIS SONS AND THERE WAS NEVER A CHOICE MADE BUT THE HISTORY AND GROWTH OF TWO NATIONS CONTINUING WAS AT THE HAND OF A STRONG WOMEN WHO BORE A SACRIFICE TO KEEP THEM ALIVE AND THAT WAS HAGAR SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF TWO NATIONS BUT BECAAAAAAUSE OF THE LOVE OF GOD AND BEING A SUBMISSIVE SERVANT SHE ONLY RECIEVED CREDIT FOR ONE AND THE FATHER WHO WAS ABRAHAM LIVED AND CARRIED OUT THE RACE THAT WOULD HAVE BECAME EXTINCT BUT IT WAS THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE LOVE FOR ISRAEL BUT THEY TWO WERE BLIND AND VERY CUNNING AND THE BLESSINGS COME UPON ANOTHER NATION FFOR THEIR SACRIFICE A MAN CAN NOT LOVE OR HAVE TWO MASTER HE WILL LOVE ONE AND HATE THE OTHER THIS IS WHY WE PUT GOD FIRST AND ABRAHAM LOVED BOTH WOMEN BUT COULD NOT HAVE THEM BOTH AND CONSIDERING HE MADE THE CHOICE TO PLEASE ONE IN TYHE OTHERS SSSITE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HATE TO SEE HER CHILD GROW AND FAVORED OVER ANOTHER SO GOD MADE TWO KINGDOMS AND SAVED THE LINE OF HEBREW BY A SERVANT WOMEN WHO TWO WAS OF HEBREW DECENT BUT THE JOURNEY AND SACRIFICE BROUGHT ABOUT A NEW NATION A REBIRTHING AND THIS IS WHAT GOD DOES FOR US TO BE STRENGTHENED AND WHEN THE PEOPLE STILL DIDN'T LISTEN THE FAVORED ONES THEY WERE EXPOSED TO DISASTER AND FLED TO THE LANDS OF THEIR RELATIVES IN EGYPT BUT THE LONG TIME REMEBERENCE AND PAIN IS WHAT MADE THEM ALSO BECOME FOOLS TO POWER MEN AND ALWAYS FORGETTING THE SACRIFICE OF THE WOMEN WHO SAVED THEIR HISTORY AND THE ONE WHO STARTED A NEW ONE WITH THE HOPES OF A UNITY BY GOD INSTEAD ENVY LUST AND HATE FELL AMONGST THEM BECAAUSE OF THEIR FOOLISH BELIEVES AND MISUNDERSTANDING OF GODS PLAN AND TODAY YOU STILL SEE THE FIGHT AT HAND BECAUSE THE LIES HAVE NEVER BEEN CORRECETED AND IT ISN'T JUST ONE SSSIDE IT IS BOTH THE SCARRY PART IS THE SAME PEOPLE BIRTH BY THE SAME FATHER AND THEIR IGNORANCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN NOT UNDERSTANDING THE POWER GOD PLACES ON GIVING AND GIFTS AND MERCY AND WOMEN FALL IN THESE CATEGORIES IF YOU REALLY STUDY AND ADHERE TO THE GOSPELS

Posted by: KIMBERLY KYLES at October 21, 2007 11:49 AM

Kim. You're nuts.

Posted by: Amy Alkon at October 21, 2007 11:57 AM

TRUTH BE TOLD A PROPHECY WILL ALWAYS FORM AGAIN LATER IN THE TESTIMONY OF EXODUS THE STORY OF MOSES AND WHAT HIS LIFE ROOTED FROM WHY DO YOU THINK HE SAILED DOWN THE NILE AND WAS SPARED OR EVEN TAKEN FROM HIS MOTHERS SIDE IN A SACRIFICE ALMIGHTY GOD WORKS WONDEROUS THINGS TO DET THE PEOPLE TO SEE THE POWER AND THE VALUE OF LOVE AND THAT WE ARE CREATED EQUAL AND OG THE DIVINE CREATOR WHICH PLACES US ALL AS GOD CHILDREN NOT OUR RELIGONS OR CULTURES BUT OUR SOULS AND HEARTS ARE WHAT BELONG AND OUR SACRIFICES AND MOSES LEAD TO ANOTHER STORY BUT I'LL WAIT TO ELABORATE I'LL LET YOU FEEL AND PRAY ON THIS ONE AND DON'T GO JUDGING THAT NOT WHY IT IS BEING REVEALED BUT TO STRENGTHEN GODS PEOPLE

Posted by: KIMBERLY KYLES at October 21, 2007 11:58 AM

Kim, no evidence there's a god. None at all. I know you've been told god exists, and I understand that you probably mainly use your head as a holding area for your hair...but people who post here are thinking people, and you're really just taking up space with these posts.

I know it's too much to ask you to think rationally, but at least turn off the caps lock.


Posted by: Amy Alkon at October 21, 2007 12:02 PM

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