Sit Next To A Man In Starbucks, Go To Jail
Doesn't that sound ridiculous? Well, ridiculous is everyday life in Saudi Arabia, especially if you're a woman. Sonia Verma writes in The Times/UK that religious police there arrested an American businesswoman for sitting next to a male colleague in Starbucks after the power went out in her office and she needed to use the Wifi:
Her ordeal began with a routine visit to the new Riyadh offices of her finance company, where she is a managing partner.The electricity temporarily cut out, so Yara and her colleagues — who are all men — went to a nearby Starbucks to use its wireless internet.
She sat in a curtained booth with her business partner in the café's “family” area, the only seats where men and women are allowed to mix.
For Yara, it was a matter of convenience. But in Saudi Arabia, public contact between unrelated men and women is strictly prohibited.
“Some men came up to us with very long beards and white dresses. They asked ‘Why are you here together?'. I explained about the power being out in our office. They got very angry and told me what I was doing was a great sin,” recalled Yara, who wears an abaya and headscarf, like most Saudi women.
The men were from Saudi Arabia's Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, a police force of several thousand men charged with enforcing dress codes, sex segregation and the observance of prayers.
Yara, whose parents are Jordanian and grew up in Salt Lake City, once believed that life in Saudi Arabia was becoming more liberal. But on Monday the religious police took her mobile phone, pushed her into a cab and drove her to Malaz prison in Riyadh. She was interrogated, strip-searched and forced to sign and fingerprint a series of confessions pleading guilty to her “crime”.
“They took me into a filthy bathroom, full of water and dirt. They made me take off my clothes and squat and they threw my clothes in this slush and made me put them back on,” she said. Eventually she was taken before a judge.
“He said 'You are sinful and you are going to burn in hell'. I told him I was sorry. I was very submissive. I had given up. I felt hopeless,” she said.
Yara's husband, Hatim, used his political contacts in Jeddah to track her whereabouts. He was able to secure her release.
“I was lucky. I met other women in that prison who don't have the connections I did,” she said. Her story has received rare coverage in Saudi Arabia, where the press has been sharply critical of the police.
Yara was visited yesterday by officials from the American Embassy, who promised they would file a report.
The UK, France, and the Netherlands have much smaller populations than we do, and thus, a much bigger problem with Muslim immigration. How long before the story above describes life in the UK, France and the Netherlands...to name just a few? And is there any solution for the non-Muslim citizens there except to move to the United States before, thanks to the immigrants from Muslim countries reproducing like bunnies, their laws are changed, their freedoms are gone, and their lives are ruled by Islam?
Some realize this. From the comments on the Times' site:
...The UK has a sizeable proportion of Muslims who live here and are hell bent on imposing their culture on the indigineous population here. We have on particular Muslim cleric here saying there will be "rivers of blood on the streets" until the West converts to Islam. I've seen the same in Australia, France, The United states and I'm betting any other western culture you care to mention...Adam, London
And here, comment from a Muslim:
...Perhaps if this country (England) had a stronger moral code in operation and enforced by law there would be less crime. There is freedom of choice here for which I'm personally pleased but I would prefer clearer guidelines from the government and law enforcing agencies in a wide area of life in Britain. Perhaps Sharia law is worth considering after all?abda, bournemouth
Hey there over in the U.K., apply for U.S. citizenship before it's too late! (Not that we in the U.S. are immune from this -- again, we're just bigger, and it'll take more time for the Muslim population to overtake that of the rest of us.)
How many of you think, that in our lifetimes, women in the U.S.A. will be forced to wear the burkha, and paintings in our museums will have the faces covered with big swaths of white paint, just to name a few?
Right now moving to the States doesn't seem like the brightest of moves for a rational atheist like myself.
I found Rowan William's (the Arch Bishop of Canterbury) recent comments very very worrying.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7232661.stm
The idea of allowing certain groups to have their own laws seems to me to be the beginning of a slippery slope.
Simon Proctor at February 7, 2008 6:07 AM
How many of you think, that in our lifetimes, women in the U.S.A. will be forced to wear the burkha, and paintings in our museums will have the faces covered with big swaths of white paint, just to name a few?
I'd rather die, and will gladly take my own life before I let those bastards claim it. o_O
Flynne at February 7, 2008 6:38 AM
"How many of you think, that in our lifetimes, women in the U.S.A. will be forced to wear the burkha, and paintings in our museums will have the faces covered with big swaths of white paint, just to name a few?" Here I doubt it, in the UK as a whole I don't think so either. In isolated parts of both countries, absolutely. I'm not sure how this is different from what we have now though it would be more extreme. Shit we had and still have some blue laws. They are being removed but still not completely. We have pharmacies in the south that won't care the morning after pill. Go into Brooklyn NY and while the law as a whole doesn't force it you'll see people in Hasidim Dress. They are punished internally for violating it and local law enforcement hasn't a chance in hell of getting anything out of them. There are Hasidim communities in up state NY which have their own PD and every thing.
While I do consider these populations a danger to some extent your talking about an overthrow of the government, not seeing this happen not for a long time if ever. If for no other reason that they will instantly clash with other local extremists.
vlad at February 7, 2008 6:47 AM
"I'd rather die, and will gladly take my own life before I let those bastards claim it. o_O"
They can have my life when they pry it from my cold dead hands. It will be right there next to my gun.
vlad at February 7, 2008 6:55 AM
I think this pretty well sums up the problem that Muslim "men" have with women:
"Some men came up to us with very long beards and white dresses"
They're upset at who wears the dresses in the family.
Curly Smith at February 7, 2008 7:05 AM
Huckabee took the South and more and you are worried about Muslims?
reic at February 7, 2008 8:05 AM
Not to mention the Amish, Vlad. Your usual New Yorker can't drop out of school until the end of the semester following their 16th birthday (last I checked, nine years ago when my daughter was that age) but the Amish get an exception to that law and can yank them out at 12. Amish kids don't stand a chance in hell.
I'm surprised the white swaths across paintings hasn't happened a time or two here frankly. But I think Vlad's right on the rest -- no time soon because it'll be Christian vs. Muslim holy war (we're already in one) first. Then we have to worry about the victors, which given the US's military power, will probably be the Christians.
I think I personally have more to fear from the Religious Right already ensconced in power in this country. Their changes to our society are already being felt. And they will use having to defend against this Sharia horseshit to promote their own agenda, which may will be the lesser of two evils (we hope) but it's still evil. Plus given that kind of power, how much worse will they get?
These are bad times we're living in. That sucks but life goes on. We can hope for and work towards improvement.
Donna at February 7, 2008 8:16 AM
The more virulent the hate-philosophy of feminism becomes in our country, the more likely that an "equal but opposite" extremism is likely to take hold here. If I were a woman, I would be telling every feminist to STFU!!
Jay R at February 7, 2008 8:18 AM
"The more virulent the hate-philosophy of feminism becomes in our country, the more likely that an "equal but opposite" extremism is likely to take hold here." Troll alert.
"Amish kids don't stand a chance in hell." So long as they stay in the Amish community they will be fine. Also I'm not up on the Amish home (or community) schooling but there is some. Besides most of us would be out of our depth if put in a situation your not expecting. An Amish boy in NY city is no more screwed in NY city then a female executive or female teacher would be in a Shari society.
vlad at February 7, 2008 8:35 AM
Donna - Don't you mean the Religious Left?
Huckabee, and the evangelical sheep who follow him, are nothing more than the fusion of God-fearing religion and progressivist socialism.
This country is headed to the left at breakneck speed.
brian at February 7, 2008 8:46 AM
Gun control- that'll be the difference. That and historic American resolve. I think the average American citizen will take it to the streets before it gets half as bad as it has in Europe. Especially in the red states. And our not-so-law-abiding folks will do it sooner than that.
I posted a link a few days ago about Castle laws here in Texas- you can legally kill someone for stealing, and in several other states as well. It dosen't even have to be your stuff they're stealing. A guy recently shot a couple of theives in his neighbor's yard. Grand jury declined to indict him. You can actually shoot them in the back as they run away, and you will be perfectly untouchable. And no shortage of people have done it.
Have you read America Alone, by Mark Steyn? He points out that, although we aren't outbreeding the Muslims, we are still keeping at a bit above replacement level, so we still have the mindset of making things better for the future generation, instead of just trying to preserve the status quo for our lifetime. Hence, we'll be less likely to roll over and take it.
Allison at February 7, 2008 9:10 AM
I am very embarrassed that Huckabee won Tennessee. We are not all backwoods rednecks, I swear.
Topic: What is the white paint covering paintings thing? I have completely missed this story.
Amy at February 7, 2008 9:12 AM
Here it is- no password needed.
http://urltea.com/2nv1
In 1995, the Texas Legislature created an exception to a 1973 statute, which required a person to retreat in the face of a criminal attack. The exception allowed a person to use force without retreat when an intruder unlawfully entered their home. Senate Bill 378 extends a person’s right to stand their ground beyond the home to vehicles and workplaces, allowing the reasonable use of deadly force when an intruder is:
Committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes;
Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place; or
Unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.
The law also provides civil immunity for a person who lawfully uses deadly force in the above circumstances.
Allison at February 7, 2008 9:20 AM
maybe the feminists should be up in arms about this kind of shit rather than whining about Ted Kennedy's endorsement of Obama.
where are there shrill gender politics when it might actually do some good?
flighty at February 7, 2008 9:26 AM
I'm not especially worried about Islamic culture taking hold generally here - Muslims may be able to enforce sharia on their own but they won't be able to enforce on others. Areas with very high Muslim populations may come to have some de facto laws regarding dress, etc., but without a radical reinterpretation of the First Amendment, sharia ain't gonna happen here. In places like the UK that lack such constitutional provisions, maybe it will happen. But I'm expecting pushback there, too, when Labor is out of power.
justin case at February 7, 2008 9:27 AM
where are there shrill gender politics when it might actually do some good?
Word.
Huckabee, and the evangelical sheep who follow him, are nothing more than the fusion of God-fearing religion and progressivist socialism.
G.W.B. got that train rolling, Huck is just its natural extension. Except for his tax plan, which I believe is the most conservative.
This country is headed to the left at breakneck speed.
Well, the rifts in the venerable post-Nixon Republican coalition sure are showing. I agree that there is a political realignment going on, but I'm not sure it's hugely leftward. There's just no one on the Republican side who can satisfy the religious right, the business conservatives, and the national defense conservatives and the nationalist conservatives simultaneously. Everyone's got their candidate: Huck, Mitt, Mack and Paul. It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out.
justin case at February 7, 2008 9:38 AM
>>>>I'm not especially worried about Islamic culture taking hold generally here - Muslims may be able to enforce sharia on their own but they won't be able to enforce on others.
I wish I could believe this Justin, but history dosesn't show that to be the case. Islam is like cancer, it starts out small and starts growing and you don't even notice it until it is already a big problem. If you don't do something about it, it will eventually grow so large as to threaten the life of the host. I'm sure you've heard the old story that if you put a frog into boiling water it will jump out, but if you put it into a pot of cold water and start heating it up, it will stay there till it boils to death. This is how I feel about islam. It is a cult and a dangerous one. The whole reason for the existence of islam is not to worship allah, it is to spread islam. It is about money and power, pure and simple. Islam has very high tithing requirements and the people at the top of the food chain in islam are very rich and have total power over the people below them. Taking them back to the lifestyles of the long ago past is just a way to keep them in line. Someone needs to show the mullahs a calender and point out there are FOUR digits in the date, not three.
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 9:59 AM
>>...without a radical reinterpretation of the First Amendment, sharia ain't gonna happen here.
Well, we'll have the first amendment, but will we have any public officials with the gumption to enforce it?
I see Islam pushing for all the PC goodies and accommodation they can get in the US. Not so much a 'take over' as a 'shifting'.
doombuggy at February 7, 2008 10:00 AM
Make that four digits in the year. I think they are one millineum behind.
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 10:00 AM
Um. After viewing the "pistol packing grandma'" video, I pity the Mullah that messes with our women.
Jeff at February 7, 2008 10:15 AM
Good points, Bikerken and doombuggy. I think these are things we should be concerned about, and watchful of, but I'm not sure if Islam can hold its own in the U.S. against our decadent culture. They're going to have a hard time keeping their young people in the fold when they can't legally proscribe dating and fucking and listening to rock music and the rest. I think. I'm pretty sure it's our best hope - that their young figure out that we are both more successful as a culture and have a hell of a lot more fun.
justin case at February 7, 2008 11:03 AM
> Right now moving to the States
> doesn't seem like the brightest
> of moves for a rational atheist
> like myself.
There are 107 characters in that sentence, each with about 150 possible values. But I don't see how they could have been swapped to convey more arrogance than in your arrangement. Jesus Fuck, dude... Is anyone asking you to come here? America is the most religious country in the world, and also the most relgiously tolerant. If you haven't seen this miracle up close, you oughtn't cluck. You oughtn't cluck anyway.
> there is a political realignment
> going on, but I'm not sure
> it's hugely leftward
Word.
> we are both more successful
> as a culture and have a
> hell of a lot more fun.
Also, we're meaner than they are.
Crid at February 7, 2008 1:15 PM
@Bikerken: "history dosesn't show that to be the case" - can you give examples?
I thought most Islamic expansion was about 600 years ago, since when it has not increased all that much. I note that the fewer members any group has, the easier it is for it to have high growth rates; conversely, the higher the growth rate, the smaller the group tends (emphasis: tends) to be.
Norman at February 7, 2008 2:54 PM
>>>>I thought most Islamic expansion was about 600 years ago, since when it has not increased all that much.??????
WWTTTTFFFFF???
Norman, it is so ironic that you would make this statement on the same day that the news is reporting that the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury, (that's British) makes a public statement that sharia law in Britain is "inevitable". He also declared that sharia and Parliamentary law should be given equal legal status so the people could choose which governs their lives. Evidently you haven't been reading the THOUSANDS of stories about what's happening in Holland, Demark, Sweden, etc etc about muslims rejecting local law and insisting on sharia or how they have been exporting such wonderful things such as female circumsion and honor killings all over the world. What color is the sky where you are?
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 4:55 PM
bikerken - one quick google search (i was driven to do this because it would be seriously disturbing if that public statement were in fact true) turns up a BBC article covering that interview with the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury, and he didn't even come close to saying that sharia law was inevitable. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7232661.stm) i happen to disagree with what he is saying, but be honest.
oh please at February 7, 2008 6:12 PM
Oh really? Then what's this?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436203-details/Adoption+of+Islamic+Sharia+law+in+Britain+is+'unavoidable'%2C+says+Archbishop+of+Canterbury/article.do
OP, I read the article you linked to and it certainly does repeat exactly what I said. Did you misread it? He is saying that there should be sharia law and english law on equal standing. I'm not sure what you are disputing here.
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 6:29 PM
After reading this, I'm wondering if maybe the dumb bitch deserved it.
Bush, President George W. Bush's younger brother and CEO of the education software company Ignite!, was in the Saudi capital, Riyadh, speaking at an economic forum hosted by King Abdullah for hundreds of influential business leaders.
Yara, who does not want her last name revealed because of safety concerns, is a managing partner at a Saudi financial company. She went to hear Bush speak, and she said she invited him later to tour her company's offices, to give him a sense of what life was really like for women living in the capital.
"I was boasting about Riyadh, telling him it doesn't deserve its bad reputation," she said. "I told him I never experienced any harassment. I'd had no trouble as a woman. It was business as usual."
But on Monday, Yara learned that she had been wrong. She was thrown in jail, strip-searched, threatened and forced to sign false confessions by the kingdom's "Mutaween" police.
"When I was arrested, it was like going through an avalanche," she said. "All of my beliefs were completely destroyed."
Jeff at February 7, 2008 7:44 PM
Everything after the block quote should also be a block quote.
Jeff at February 7, 2008 7:45 PM
I'm confused, Jeff. Is she a dumb bitch for strolling with a Bush, or because she truthfully told him she hadn't (at that point) been harassed?
If you're really trying to change how misogynistic you seem here, you should know that this statement is one of those that comes across as pretty anti-woman.
Kimberly at February 7, 2008 7:55 PM
Good stuff Jeff. Having been in Riyadh and Bahrain, Oman, UAE, I think any American woman who goes over there to live and work should read this story. I'm thinking this would have been much more interesting had she been with Neil Bush when she was arrested and they took him in too! That would have been interestng. Maybe it could have broken the liplock George has had on King Abdullahs ass for all these years.
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 7:56 PM
Let me clarify though, I don't think that because she was gullible means she deserved the treatment she got. No woman deserves to be treated like that anywhere.
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 7:59 PM
You're as dumb as Yara. She's a dumb bitch because she believed "[Riyadh] doesn't deserve its bad reputation." Only a dumb bitch would be ignorant of the oppression of women in that city. Only a dumb blog poster would fail to grasp that.
I'm not. After thoroughly re-reading my posts, I've decided the problem is with dumb man-haters like you, not me.
Jeff at February 7, 2008 8:03 PM
True. But I have no sympathy whatsoever. She was an apologist for a regime and society that oppresses women. She didn't care about women before, so I don't care about her now.
Jeff at February 7, 2008 8:06 PM
I don't think she was an apologist. An apologist has real knowledge of what they are covering up and they are just plain lying. I think she waw just plain dumb and didn't realize that she was in danger. There are those poeople who never see a threat until it's too late, especially if it has to do with another culture. And that is not an uncommon trait among Americans who worship the god of multiculturalism.
Bikerken at February 7, 2008 8:11 PM
An MD (an MD!), for a company doesn't know about this?
Although, I do see your point that multiculturalism creates a bizarre ideological blindness. Fair enough, mate.
Jeff at February 7, 2008 8:23 PM
>You're as dumb as Yara. She's a dumb bitch because she believed "[Riyadh] doesn't deserve its bad reputation." Only a dumb bitch would be ignorant of the oppression of women in that city. Only a dumb blog poster would fail to grasp that.
So, uh, the second half of my question is the reason. See, I was really curious which it was. Some people hate Bush so much they might think someone who hung with a Bush deserved whatever they got. I was curious if that was your reason. Thank you for your, umm, helpful response.
I actually agree she was very naive (read: dumb) to think Riyadh is a place to be a woman. But I don't agree that she "deserved" what she got.
>After thoroughly re-reading my posts, I've decided the problem is with dumb man-haters like you, not me.
Heh. Yes, as I am female and American, I must hate men. You are SO wise!
I've always liked this quote:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
So I, at least, will now shut up.
Kimberly at February 7, 2008 9:18 PM
@Bikerken: You haven't given any examples. The Archbishop is saying something, which is not the same as that something happening. There have been and continue to be so-called honour killings ... but that is internecine violence, not Islamic conquest. And I have not seen any "export" of things like female circumcision. These practices are Islamic, and they stay Islamic. They are not catching on around the world. Or do you know otherwise?
Norman at February 8, 2008 12:03 AM
This is worrying for someone who wants to migrate to the UK. I don't think Islam will be taking over that country anytime soon. After all, Muslims are only 2.8% of the population. But they better wake up. Already the govt is bending over backwards to accomodate their Muslim electorates just because they're the ones who whine the loudest. If this goes on, the Brits could end up losing a lot of quality immigrants and end up with dipshits like al-Masri.
Ju at February 8, 2008 1:57 AM
The solution is perfectly obvious, if someone wants to live under a different set of laws - MOVE TO A COUNTRY THAT ABIDES BY THOSE LAWS
lujlp at February 8, 2008 2:33 AM
Norman, if you are so obtuse as to dismiss the Archbishop of Canterbury saying that Sharia law in Britain is unavoidable, as an indication that islam is becoming a political threat in Britain, no amount of moving the equivelant of heaven and earth in logic or evidence is going to convince you that there is a problem there. Are you trying to say that Sharia and British law can exist side by side with some people being held to one and others being held to the other? We have another name for that in the english langauge, WAR. I already have a Bachelor of Science degree. I don't do homework for people who just like to argue idiotic positions. I think most of them are just pure juvenile assholes trying to spin people up. Why don't you write me a big essay on why you think islam is harmless and not expanding. You'd have a hard time convincing my uncle who lives outside Detroit when that damn prayer call goes of three times a day. (that was a compromise, three instead of the usualy five).
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 2:37 AM
And by the way Norman, "There have been and continue to be so-called honour killings ... but that is internecine violence, not Islamic conquest.....These practices are Islamic, and they stay Islamic. " Are you really trying to say that this should not matter to us because it is 'just between muslims?' If you are, don't talk to me, or I'll get somewhat abusive.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 2:53 AM
Ju, I wouldn't give up on Britain just yet. Outside London, there are still some nice places to live. London has the majority of the muslim population and it has become a shithole. I'n not inferring that it's all their fault. I have a good friend from London and he goes back to visit his family every now and then. I don't talk to him about London anymore becuase he'll start tearing up and get depressed. It has gone downhill so much, it tears him up. There are zones in London you just don't go into if you're not a muslim, even if you are, it isn't safe.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 3:04 AM
@Bikerken: There's a difference between the A of C saying that Sharia law in Britain is unavoidable, which is his opinion about the future, and you referring to history, which has presumably happened somewhere already. (And what makes you think I share his opinion?)
Similarly I don't say internecine violence doesn't matter, just that it's not evidence of Islamic takeover.
I'm being lazy in not doing the research myself. But you brought up the history reference, so I assumed you knew what you were talking about.
So, are you going to get abusive now, or answer the question?
Norman at February 8, 2008 3:52 AM
I didn't know where to post this but it really pissed me off after reading it. I thought it was best to post it here.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/02/08/4834833-sun.html
Kendra at February 8, 2008 4:30 AM
Kendra: Before the rage blinds you we have the same shit in this country in the great moral state of Utah. They fudge the rules in the same spirit as the Muslims in Canada. The multiple wives are listed as dependents and some will even collect benefits as individuals. Individuals will get more money then if they are listed as dependents.
BTW Utah is one of the poorest states in the union so there is lots of federal money going there. I'm against anyone living off the rest of us but Muslims aren't the first, the only, or the most numerous of those doing it.
vlad at February 8, 2008 6:07 AM
Jeff: The arch bishop of Cantaberry is worried about it and you think it's not something to worry about. Please explain why?
vlad at February 8, 2008 6:09 AM
"How many of you think, that in our lifetimes, women in the U.S.A. will be forced to wear the burkha, and paintings in our museums will have the faces covered with big swaths of white paint, just to name a few? "
I would say - nope. Not in our lifetimes at all. Don't be so dramatic. It takes a crapload of generations before that kind of change happens. Abortion still isn't completely accepted, neither are gays. There is still rampant racism and sexism in the states, despite the "revoutions" calling for change. And you think that all of a sudden, in a short number of years the States will shift their entire thinking to force women to wear headscarves? The only way that will happen is if the government is overthrown, war ensues and the US loses. All within what? A half century...tops? Don't think so.
d at February 8, 2008 8:00 AM
You also have to wonder how it's determined to decide which court of law one goes to. Will a Muslim women be allowed to go into the secular court for a divorce if her husband prefers the Islamic court? Will they be able to claim sharia law to defend honor killings, etc.? No, there's no way to honestly condone immigrants living under laws they decide to bring with them. If you don't want to live under our laws, don't move to our country. These separate courts (I'd say separate but equal has never either worked or been equal but they're not even bothering to claim it's separate but equal) for religious laws is nothing but theocracy and should not be tolerated for one second.
Donna at February 8, 2008 8:07 AM
I'm 43 now. Roy Walford, the late gerontologist, estimated that I'll live to be 120 (comfortably, as they'll have cures for diseases of aging by the time I get them, he guessed). Islam taking over is a matter of population, and Muslims have far more children than western women do, at least in Europe.
Amy Alkon at February 8, 2008 8:08 AM
Sharia law in the UK may be closer than you think: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200802081860.htm
Quizzical1 at February 8, 2008 8:33 AM
"Muslims have far more children than western women do" You are assuming that most of the children will not become westernized. The women will flee the ignoramus backward culture communities. My wife did basically that with an ethnic Portuguese community. The type that women stay home, marry young, weigh less then 100 lb and make shit loads of fat male babies. Then the occasional girl to clean an care for them when they get old.
This is why I don't like any ethnics, you live here your an American otherwise get you ass back on the boat, turnip truck, plane, rubber dingy, etc. and go home. Muslims are no more a threat to our culture then any other backwards heavy breeding culture. The Muslims will convert us the rest either want us to convert of admit our inferiority and serve them.
vlad at February 8, 2008 8:40 AM
Yeah, but they still want the UN to bail them out:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080208/ap_on_re_as/pakistan
Flynne at February 8, 2008 9:25 AM
"This is why I don't like any ethnics..."
Then why doncha call yourself Biff or Chuck or Bob, instead of vlad?
I mean, people could get the wrong impression:)
Jody Tresidder at February 8, 2008 9:46 AM
I haven't said much on this topic before now, because with all the muslim bashing going on right now in general, I wanted to give the other side a fighting chance. So, I looked up several books and websites that supported Islam, as well as read a good deal of the Qur'an itself, as well as the Sunnah (a book I didn't know about until I started this research). I've also spent a while researching Sharia law.
To put it simply... the more I read, the more scared I get of it. Islam as a whole is based largely on stirring the emotions of its followers, rather than their common sense. The Qu'ran, while it has some interesting stories, is extremely emotionalist from front to back, repeating over and over how its people, other people, and other nations must be made to submit. Nearly all texts by muslims for muslims that I read punctuate their texts with meaningless but very emotion stirring phrases, such as "In all walks of life, bow before Him" and "Allah is great, give him your will".
When emotion is allowed to override logic, that's when Very Bad Things Happen. One small secular example is when that woman joked on the air that the only way to beat Tiger Woods in golf would be to "lynch" him. The comment boards online were FLOODED with hundreds of people calling her incredibly ugly names (bitch, wench, ho, cunt, dumb broad, etc), calls to fire her, and people even saying they'd lynch or shoot her and dump her body in a canal. The difference between those kinds of incidents and Islam is that Islam brings that kind of emotion into everyday life.
In this aspect, Islam isn't really much different than most other religious - Most of them appeal to the emotions as well, rather than logic. I've met very logical Christians, for example, but their logic-o-meter always seemed to shut off when specifically discussing religion.
As much as I want to, I actually can't say Islam is any worse than old-school Christianity, which was incredibly invasive towards other cultures and people. Many, many indigenous religions were completely wiped out, not when the guns came to conquer them, but when the missionaries arrived. The main difference is Christianity has more or less developed with the times - Many Christians nowadays go to church for two or three hours on Sunday then act like agnostics the rest of the week. The old absolutely requierd standard of giving money was 10%, now it's more of a "whenever I feel like it", or "here's my pocket change", or a "Woohoo, tax reduction!"
Now, I could also compare Islam to the ancient Greek and Roman religions, which are pretty much dead right now besides being fodder for video games, or the incredibly bloody Aztec and Incan religions. The common binding fact is that these religions were universal in the country in which they were practiced. So was Christianity before the reformation. Everyone believed in these religions, and those that didn't (gasp, omg) were outsiders and heretics.
Now, in most cases, the human race as a whole has grown out of universally accepted practices which held back its development and evolution. One fantastic example is slavery - It was universally practiced at one point, and no one thought any ill of it at all. Then all at once, at least as far as history's concerned, the world more or less decided that it was unacceptable, and slavery as an offical, government sanctioned practice, was almost universally banned.
Another good example is literacy, and the availability of information. Millions of texts are available with a touch of the finger. There was once a time when books were almost unheard of. We also have a boom of technology; Just a few hundred years ago we didn't even have electricity, and now look where we are.
In older times, the fact that woman were repressed and not allowed the same status as men was almost universal, even in the United States where women were expected to stay home, have babies, and keep the home tidy. However, with a relatively bloodless revolution, we've broken away from that in a huge way. While it's not perfect, women are enjoying more offical freedoms in these modern times than they ever had. We've still got a way to go, but it's much better than it's ever been.
The main problem with Islam is that it's desperately trying to hold on to its tradition and the "old ways". In fact, it's lashing against them by becoming even stricter, even more fanatical, and even more repressive towards women than ever before. This is in part fueled by their fear of losing their culture, and in part by because their texts appeal SO heavily to an individual's emotion. It's very, very hard to get logic to override emotion.
Cases like the ones mentioned over and over in this blog certainly aren't helping Islam's case. In a large sense, this kind of thing is bringing to light what really happens, and the need for change. It's unjust, outrageous, and grabs our attentions. The more knowledge we have, the better off we are.
Gah, this has gotten way too long. Sorry.
Bad Kitty at February 8, 2008 10:25 AM
"Then why doncha call yourself Biff or Chuck or Bob, instead of vlad?
I mean, people could get the wrong impression:)"
I get called an anti-immigrant racist, or my personal favorite "You hate Russian." I usually switch to my mother tongue after this and watch them shit. Can't get the Russian language module for the blog so I have to use the name.
vlad at February 8, 2008 10:55 AM
"This is in part fueled by their fear of losing their culture, and in part by because their texts appeal SO heavily to an individual's emotion." Or is it when Islam (or any other Religion) interpreted in a certain way matches personal prejudices or generates personal advantages. Personally as a man the start of Shari law would be hugely advantageous to me. As I'm not a religious person all I would have to do is "convert" and I am now the absolute master of my home.
My wife could be a multimillionaire and I could be a useless hanger on. Now we switch to Shari law and ALL of her stuff is mine. She now does what I want and has no right what so ever to complain. If you are a small narrow minded (male) narcissist with a huge ego it's great. The legal system has just stroked your ego to climax, your misconceived self worth is legal validated.
vlad at February 8, 2008 11:03 AM
Great post BK! Lots of good common sense in there.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 11:18 AM
Vlad,
But I still don't get why you say "I don't like any ethnics".
The reference to switching to your "mother tongue" suggests you too might fall into the very group you don't like?
(btw, I think it's a super name!)
Jody Tresidder at February 8, 2008 11:23 AM
Norman, Again, if you don't already know about the legions of history of islamic aggression, I'm not going to take you by the hand like the ghost of christmas past and walk you through it. Just over the past fifty years, the islamic population in Europe is growing by leaps and bounds and the cultures are facing some real problems trying to adjust to the differences between their own culture and a prehistoric cult like islam. Look at whats happening in Paris lately. Holland actually had to put out a video for muslims that says, if you can't accept our lifestyle, don't come. All over the world right now, islam is at war with it's neighbors. Has somebody been stealing your newspapers?
Everytime Amy puts up an article about islamic nuttiness, there is always one or two of you who come out of the weeds and demand that we prove to you with fingerprints and blood samples that history really happened. Are you islamic, I'm just asking becuase madrassas have some pretty strange versions of history and that could explain it.
So in short, no, I'm not going to write you a history of the world, and yes, I do know what I'm talking about, it's YOU that seem to be at a loss. Third, now I am going to get abusive. You are a poophead.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 11:30 AM
@BikerKen: I didn't want a history of the world. Nor do I dispute Islamic nuttiness or that Sharia Law is repressive and in my opinion, backward and bloodthirsty. You really need to read carefully what people write.
You wrote that history shows that Islam starts small and grows like a cancer until it is a problem. What I dispute is your vision of history. Perhaps you are right, but where has it happened in history?
When you say things like you do, it sounds as if there is an inevitability to the process. I don't dispute that we are having troubles with Islam right now, but that doesn't mean your analogy to a cancer holds any water at all. That's just sensationalist headlines.
The best descriptions I have seen have pointed out (1) that Islam is not just a religion: it is a combination of religion and politics and to some extent race, hiding behind whichever is most suitable at any given moment, and (2) globalisation is hurting their tribal sensitivities. Don't take that to mean that I approve of (1) or care about (2). I think it is time they grew up and did something about their rage and victimhood and goddamned touchiness.
You claim to know what you are talking about - can you at least say how you know? A BSc doesn't account for it. Bad Kitty took the trouble to teach us something and to explain how she (he?) knew. That's valuable. What's your story? Have you lived in the middle east, perhaps? I don't have any special knowledge beyond what I read in the papers, but I take that with quite a lot of salt, because nothing sells papers so well as doom and gloom.
Your poopy friend, Norman.
Norman at February 8, 2008 12:01 PM
Norman, I was just surfing and came across this article. It's from a week ago and I think it sums up what I was talking about with the expansion of islam very nicely. It's very long but it is extrememly detailed in it's description of the problems of muslim expansion all over the world and has several links to supporting data. Interesting co-incidence, I wasn't even looking for it. This is a great read for everyone.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/02/why_american_evangelicals_are.html
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 12:05 PM
Thanks - I'll have a read at that.
Norman at February 8, 2008 12:30 PM
"But I still don't get why you say "I don't like any ethnics"." I moved to this country took it as my own adapted to the language (some parts of this even as a child were not fun) I'm an American, not a Russian American just American. What I don't like about ethnics (I pronounce the word efnics when I'm using it in this context) is:
1) Their strange perceived superiority to us Americans.
2) Their obsession with being a pure blood. Yes like you see in both Blade or Harry Potter.
3) Their belief that they and only they know what is right and it was always how it was done in their much missed home land. (Which most of them left by choice and become angry when you point it out.)
4) Their willingness to criticize the system and the milk it for all it's worth. (The most critical people appear to always be the ones doing the most milking.)
5) That their culture is superior to our cause they were writing classic or having a democracy when we weren't even a concept. (Pointing out that they now serve me my food and I'm an engineer also really pisses them off even when done in their native tongue)
I'm all for remembering where you came from but also remember why you came here. Consider that if the land of your fore fathers was so freaking fantastic then why did you come here?
"btw, I think it's a super name!" Thank you.
vlad at February 8, 2008 12:53 PM
I've been thinking that maybe islam is just misunderstood, what it needs is some good advertising. Soooo, I decided to write a little radion commercial for them:
“Are you an insecure pencil dick man who fears and hates women? Did your mom and sister have bigger balls than you? Do you have a chip on your shoulder because everyone else seems to be enjoying life, having sex, and listening to rock and roll, and driving fancy cars while you can’t get a date because you don’t take a shower and have the personality of Charles Manson?
Think you’re options are limited? Hell No! Join ISLAM!
As a muslim team member, you will learn how to :
· Blow up innocent women and children.
· Sharpen a machete to take off an old nuns head like slicing a meat loaf.
· Have sex with young boys while claiming homosexuality is dirty and doesn’t exist.
· Move to a foreign country, get married and go on welfare, don’t worry about finding a wife, one will be assigned to you!
· Beat your wife to make you feel like a real man. All in the name of Allah.
· Pray for three hours a day banging your head on cement to clear out any impure logical thoughts.
Sound too good to be true!? Hold on! If you call today, we will send you a FREE copy of our service manual, the Quran. In it you will find justification for gang raping teenagers, chapters and chapters of stories about making happy people die or convert to islam, and justification for doing just about any lame thing in the world all in the name of Allah! So call now, 1-800-426-5263, that’s 1-800-I AM LAME. Call now and save 20% on plastic explosive!
*Not associated with any real religion.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 1:22 PM
Norman, I am retired Navy, I have spent a few years in the middle east and it was required for me to read and study about islamic ways and culture, plus, I have eyes. That's as far as I'm going into that.
When I talk about the historical precedents, I'm pretty much talking after WWII. You can find the same thing back in the seventh century, but that's not as relevant as recent history. That ariticle I linked to is a very good, long but good summation.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 1:28 PM
Bikerken: I don't disagree with your take on history. I just don't see them as that great of a threat to us as a culture, some of them are still very very dangerous as individuals. We as Americans have slowly over time adopted various parts of other cultures with little problem. For example the tunenbaum (sp) which was part of a foreign culture, one with which we were are war with around the time we got it.
I doubt that we will ever adopt burkas or head scarfs as a norm. Head scarfs are worn by many cultures which are not Muslim, think little old grannies. 5 times a day of prayer in school, you really thing that's ever going to happen. Divorce law where the husband get to dump the wife with no issues or get a harem legally? The one thing I wish we would adopt is decent (sanitary) public baths, riding the train after work sucks if you don't have a cold.
vlad at February 8, 2008 1:42 PM
Vlad, I think it already is happening. Not that I'm worried islam is going to take over the country, honestly, I think they will push until we end up fighting them. In England, some public schools which are in muslim areas are starting to demand that the non-muslim students ahdere to muslim standards. That took about one generation to get that far. What do you think it's going to be like 20 years from now? Also, I wasn't kidding about my uncle who lives in Hamtramack MI, a suburb of Detroit. They wake up in the morning to that howling prayer call and it happens three times a day. This is not assimilation, this is colonization. In my neighborhood, in the school I can see out my window as I type this, the middle school started separating the muslim students from the others and actually set aside a prayer room for them and allowed them to be excused from class for their prayer times. When the parents found out, they blew all kinds of gaskets. The school was quickly told by the school board that you can't legally allow prayer from one religion in school and not any others and they had to put a stop to it. I know that these are anecdotal examples, but how many thousand anecdotes do you need to see a trend? Check out that article I sent for Norm. It'll open your eyes for sure and it's well documented.
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 1:54 PM
Vlad, on that story like above, it actually has links where you can click on over seven HUNDRED areas of France that the French police no longer control becuase Islam has taken them over. If nothing else, click on the story to do that. Here is the link to the list. Click on the carte link and it gives you a redline map to show the area. This is a service of the French Government! This is INSANE!
http://i.ville.gouv.fr/divbib/doc/chercherZUS.htm
Bikerken at February 8, 2008 2:24 PM
"...I'm all for remembering where you came from but also remember why you came here..."
Thanks, vlad.
That all became a lot clearer when you expanded what you meant by "ethnics".
Jody Tresidder at February 8, 2008 2:43 PM
I don't necessarily agree however I can understand where you are coming from with that. At least it was well thought out.
shower at March 17, 2011 12:14 AM
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