How people earn a living writing this same navel gazer over and over again boggles my senses. Obviously, the market is strong.

"divorce is typically a situation that benefits women financially"

Too often, the argument stops right there; that men are having their pockets picked. For a man to suggest that there is an emotional component is to invite the dog-eared accusation of whining.

Yes, it is non-remunerative devoting your working years to supporting a household you are no longer a part of.

But if F-ing hurts too.

Love love love your column. It is so refreshing to read your blog. Your observations here are what concern me regarding my two sons. I live in So Cal in a world of abundance and spoiled young women and I wonder, "Who will they marry? What poor guy will have to struggle to please these vapid vessels?"
Brava!

"Does society really want usto settle for Mr Only OK rather than the real deal? Marriage strikes me as hard enough work without saddling yourself with someone for whom you don’t quite feel all that’s necessary."

All the author has to do is change "Mr. OK" with "Miss OK" and she will have an answer to her question.

I often hear women make a checklist of what they require in a man; good looking, tall, finacially secure, good sense of humor, self-confident.

I often wonder "If a guy's got all that going for him why would he waste his time with you?"

What an annoying article. Why didn't she ask her friend Jamie why he feels the way he does, and then shut her pie hole long enough to actually listen to what he says? He might have some really good, well-thought-out reasons. Instead she just stomps her little foot and whines because all the men in the world aren't doing exactly what she wants them to do.

And ANY time I hear the words "fear of commitment" it is like a cheesegrater on my eardrums. Either you love someone so much that you don't want to be with anyone else, or you don't. If you love someone that much and they love you back, either it will last the rest of your lives or it won't. All the declarations of commitment in the world, even if they involve marriage vows, aren't going to make a bit of difference.

No, no, I want you to PROMISE me that green will still be your favorite color in thirty years! PROMISE ME!!!!!!! Are you AFRAID OF COMMITMENT????? Gah.

One of the assumptions in the article really jumped out at me. The author declares that if the guy had only taken the plunge he would 'be happily married with children.' That seems to be a rather . . . . interesting assumption.

Aside from the obvious and widespread news that divorce even divides unearned assets, I suspect that the public tendency towards immaturity is fueling this fire. The definition of "children" is notoriously vague. We are expected to know nothing whatsoever about what we are doing clear into our 30s, now. Legal cannon fodder at 18 (younger with parental consent?), unable to carry one's own issued rifle without constant command supervision, unable to drink legally or carry a pistol on your own until 21, you and your children have become idiots in all ways - by your own indolent hand. This by granting endless "do-overs" for mistakes, and by seeking anyone and anything else to be at fault other than the person at the core of any problem.

Why don't people seek "commitment"? They are taught every hour of every day to avoid it. "Commitment" is, after all, another word for responsibility.

"Why don't people seek "commitment"? They are taught every hour of every day to avoid it. "Commitment" is, after all, another word for responsibility."

Hmm, I guess I agree with you up to a point. If I want something, I know I have to do something to earn it. If I want to live indoors, eat food, and keep the lights on, I have to get a job and earn a paycheck for it. If I want to get in strong physical shape I have to be self-disciplined about diet and exercise. If I want to get good grades in school this semester I have to spend time studying.

I make decisions in life about what is important to me and then I put forth the necessary effort to attain it. But if I don't want to have children and don't see marriage as something that would benefit me in any way, is there any reason for me to put a bunch of effort into seeking that sort of "commitment?" There are all kinds of responsibilities I could take on if I just felt like filling my plate up with them. But why?

What annoyed me about the author's tone was the assumption that I *should* want those things. Well who says? I truly have no interest, and there's no reason for me to. I'd rather go ride my bike. At the end of the day, I either spent my time doing something that brings me joy, or not. At the end of ALL my days, I either spent my life that way, or not.

Laura Nolan is the kind of "new world woman" who makes me cringe. Men are gladly moving away from being the little puppies that live to make "her" happy at whatever cost to him it takes. There are plenty of women out there looking for the right man who makes the right amount of money and has just enough attributes that make him easily trainable for her. We've had enough of that bullshit. I think most men are getting real tired of being just a tool for her road to happiness. We have feelings and want to be happy too, and if we're with a woman we don't feel that with, its not that we're afraid to commit, its that we're not jumping into a situation where we're providing a woman what she wants just to make someone happy.

Don't you get the feeling that "Get Married / Have 1.2 Kids" is on Nolan's To-Do List? And she's got to, just got to check it off, it's on the freakin' list!

Amy - where do you find these clueless whores?

I mean, can you think of a better description of this broad? It has nothing to do with timing, and everything to do with their priorities.

1950 - Woman's priorities: "Will he be a good provider for our children? Will he treat me well?"
Man's priorities: "Will she be a good mother to our children? Will she respect me?"

2007 - Woman's priorities: "Will he look good when I show him off to my friends? Will he give me everything I desire? Will he worship me?"
Man's priorities: "Will she put out? Will she leave me my stuff after the divorce?"

The Man's priorities changed in response to the changing demands of women. As the divorce rate started to rise, and most of those were initiated by women, men concluded that it just wasn't worth the effort to produce children they'd never see again, and to buy houses they'd never live in.

You couldn't have said it any better brian. Amen. My attorney in my divorce 4 years ago told me that 90% of the divorces she handles are filed by the wives, and 100% of them are because the wife just wasn't happy in general....translation....I get the house, kids, a fat monthly check and a new boyfriend to go with my new facelift and makeover. Pay up Sucker!!!!!!

I always find it funny when people are so oblivious to their own actions. In this article she trashes her so called freind, men in general, and without meaning to the women who raised these men.

Men are inherently pargmatic, nature designed us as inate risk calculators and those who prefomed well survived. And growing up under the second generation of feminists and living in the third gereration its jut not worth it.

We as men tday were raised by feminists, we were taught that women deserve the same treatment as men, that women enjoy sex as much(if not more) than men, and that women can make it on their own without men

Guess what ladies, we as men find it hilarious and slighty perplexing that your so upset with us for doing exatly what you wanted us to do - treat you as equals

Ironically ladies, claiming equaility while also keeping a death grip on the expectaion of preferential treatment in all aspects of society makes you even more of a risk, one many of us just arent willing to take

THe problem is we have to take time to get to know you well enough to find out what kind of person you are, and then we get dumped on for exercising the same right you want - to be happy

If a guy has a freind who is a pian in the ass we drop them unles they can provide something to outweigh his personality flaws - three guesses on what a straight man might accept from a woman

Quite fraqnkly I dont see the problem, you have a generation of men raised in an awrenes of feminism by women who taught us that women are to be treated the same as any man - and that is exactly what you have got, why ae you complaining?

"Why don't people seek "commitment"? They are taught every hour of every day to avoid it. "Commitment" is, after all, another word for responsibility."

That's it in a nutshell, Pirate Jo. And this silly bint is bitching because her friend is taking personal responsibility, in that he doesn't want to be responsible for a failed relationship, or to be used as someone else's financial fallback plan. And good for him! Who was it, I think Robin Williams? who said, "ah yes, divorce, from the Latin, meaning to rip a man's gentials out through his wallet." When's the last time you heard of a woman paying for a divorce, giving up the house and the kids, and paying alimony? Yeah, me either.

This is the same load of crap as the "Child-Man in the Promised Land" piece by Kay Hymowitz -- another staunch feminist who just can't understand why men aren't flocking to be of service to women -- the same women who have spent the last generation telling men with undisguised contempt that they really aren't needed, or even very much liked. The thing she is sure of, however, is that men are to blame. Yet another male character defect revealed. And of course, innocent women the victims once again.

As someone old enough to have seen all of this predictably unfolding in reaction to the nightmare that feminism has been for a generation of men, I can only say, Hahahahahahahahahahahah!! Having your adversary looking forward to dying childless and unmarried, bitter and lonely? Priceless!

I especially like the comment about women complaining about men who "'won't commit' as if it's their duty to commit to them."

I remember writing to you, Amy, about a co-worker of mine who was cohabitating with his girlfriend of six years. She was determined to get married. He was equally determined not to get married. It ended predictably disastrously. When you're determined to get married to someone and the guy you're with is determined not to, the correct response is "Next." Not, "Well, let's just shack up for six years and see if I can't change your mind."

The wrong issue is being presented here. It's not about men who "won't commit." It's about women who think they need a committment.

For what reason is this contractual manacle so important? Women can have their own jobs, own their own money, have property, a career, a future and security. What insidious programming taught them that their identity is wrapped up in a man or that the only way they can have any type of security is through a man?

Just got home. Here's a link to Hymowitz' piece.

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_single_young_men.html

The laments in these pieces remind me of laments people make to me that I don't believe in marriage and don't want children. My life works for me. If your life doesn't work for you, change it. If you're a woman and you want a kid, this may mean settling in some way. As I said in the blog item, boofrigginghoo.

Man, I sense a whole lot of cold angry male bitterness in this string. I would like to commend and echo that sentiment. Seriously, I think this woman's idea of the perfect man would be something like veal. An anchored down, translucent weakling with no voice that she occaisionally milks for reproductive purposes and trots out at the wine and cheese party to impress impress her friends and provide her with everything she doesn't want to work for like credit cards and a house. Men are waking up, they aren't taking this crap any more and feminists are still pushing it like $3000 beanie babies.

I have several male friends who have bought, and lost two or more houses. One of them has a t-shirt that says, "I may not be mister right, but I'll fuck you till he gets here." Common attitude these days.

Amy: Do you think by the time people hit their mid-20s (i.e. they start considering marriage/munchkins) they are more jaded about relationships? The old assumption that dating was a means of searching for a future spouse no longer seems valid. Seems a lot of people are operating on false assumptions.

Personally, I love real men, and my boyfriend is one of them. I was just at an alternative newspaper conference this weekend, where a Humboldt County publisher told me to talk to her editor about my column. I asked what he looked like, and she said, "like an unmade bed." I find that charming, and he was a guy-guy, too...which meant he and my boyfriend could talk in the bar the other night without making each other itch.

To answer your question, Mike S, I think that these days, American adolescence, if I had to pick a general number, ends at around age 30. Why settle down at 24 or 26? You very likely have no idea who you are at that point, which is probably why, according to UN divorce stats Helen Fisher read on the train from Manhattan to Rutgers (I guess they were out of pulps at Penn Station), you're more likely to get divorced if you marry between 20 and 24.

most amusing comments as always...

am especially in agreement with:
"Ironically ladies, claiming equaility while also keeping a death grip on the expectaion of preferential treatment in all aspects of society makes you even more of a risk, one many of us just arent willing to take" -lujlp

The original article seems to say "rope 'em before they are old enough to figure everything out" or "be the first to bite, because he will be twice shy next time"

How much of this is looking for a draft horse stud, to pay the bills and give you children?
Using the coupon for the adult life you dreamed of as a child?

In truth, what's in it for the guy? Servitude? The POV I am seeing a lot recently for both genders is to still think of the family [2 or more people] as it's disparate parts, rather than as a unit. When you do well for the unit, it has a benefit to you as well, and when the unit has a setback, it is also something that the unit pulls through together. All of the "I want this..." can be done, but how does it effect the unit? Do you think about it that way before even asking the question?

This is an important question right from the start before getting hitched to each other. I think our heroine Laura, isn't thinking about the To Each Other part. It is perhaps the reason why guys are running the other way, or at least not being compliant. They have no faith she will reciprocate, since she is the one with the rope in her hands...

I finally read the Hymowitz piece, and was struck by this as well:

"Single women in their twenties and early thirties are joining an international New Girl Order, hyperachieving in both school and an increasingly female-friendly workplace, while packing leisure hours with shopping, traveling, and dining with friends."

heavans to murgatroid, why then are they COMPLAINING? Sounds like fun times, and it also sounds like exactly what guys are doing except with positive spin words for women, and negative spin words for guys:
"hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, playing Halo 3, and, in many cases, underachieving."

Uh, yeah, who are they hooking up with, anyway? Underachieving? Wait a minute, I thought this playboy was making $60k a year and showing "responsible self-reliance"
HOW is that underachieving?

First paragraph, Kay fails to mention that in '66 the wife likely stayed home all day with the kind, and one on the way. Things were not only different for guys then...

Recently I suggested to my son he should never worry about being Mr. Right, getting married, and starting a family. Mr. right only last till the divorce then any slob will do for the position of stepfather.
What could be better, you can put your feet up on the furniture in a house some Mr. Right is paying for while saying `beer me` or `boob me` because there is no advantage to the little missus to throw you out. He should start looking because Mr. Right is starting to figure out the game.

Divorce Barbie comes with all of Ken`s stuff

"I often hear women make a checklist of what they require in a man; good looking, tall, finacially secure, good sense of humor, self-confident."

Good-looking, unattached, financially-secure guys spend all their time
a) working
b) working out
c) sport-f(ornicat)ing the myriad women who, like the author of this article, are in obsessive competition over this small demographic

Every thirty-something woman who writes an article like the one above should be made to take economics classes so she can learn how scarcity affects demand.

At the end of the class she will be given a celebrity magazine and a mirror. The magazine to illustrate what the female companions of tall, rich, athletic men usually look like. The purpose of the mirror should be self-evident.

Similar treatment will be given to the old, perverted letch who insists that the fresh new intern "wants" him. An exception will be granted for Bill Clinton, for reasons I've never quite understood.

Henry Kissinger once said, "Power is the world's greatest aphrodesiac."

When that runs out, there's always duracell coppertops.

"Mustard keen"? That's a new one.

It's been said by many women; men are afraid to commit. We all know why that is. The other side of the coin is that with women initiating 75% of divorce, they don't know what commitment is. It's like buying a painting from a blind man.

In my opinion, men and women view the passage of life differently. Men behave as if it will always be like it is today, while women are much more conscious of the passing of time. This reflects the biological reality.

I also think that most men don't fully grow up until they have kids of their own to be responsible for. Until then, life is just a game, because there are endless tomorrows just like today, and a man can always hit the 'reset' button to start over. Kids bring about a change in the man who is their father.

And before anyone starts misquoting me, I'm not advocating children to save a marriage, or anything like that. I'm trying to understand the human condition, as evolution has played it out for us. In the natural state we would all be parents in our teens and the idea of Peter Pans who don't grow up would never arise.

Anyone who understands anything about commitment, especially in marital terms, should be "afraid to commit."

To all the women out there. Times, they are a changin!!

I think the problem with the article writer's mentality is that she clearly believes marriage is something everyone has to do. It's like part of your to do list.

Weirdly, I did know a lot of guys in college who couldn't wait to settle down, and have a family. I really didn't, and still don't understand the rush. IF you are happy with yourself and your life as you are then why would you feel this overwhelming NEEED to get married. I mean I can totally understand the desire to throw a big party and get lots of presents, but the lifetime of commitment thing? Less appealing.

Plus the nearly instantaneous breeding, what's with that people? What's the rush here, if you're gonna live to be 80, then why on earth are you in such a big hurry to tie yourself down at 25... I don't get it.

I guess you could blame this on feminism, but I don't really think fewer people getting into bad marriages is a bad thing. I definitely see how a bad marriage is less appealing for men now. There is no longer a net gain to being married to just anyone. Now people actually have standards because if they marry someone they can't live with then they could get taken to the cleaners. Seems like worse things have happend.

"I think men are reacting differences in possibilities for men, and I think that's fine." Well, said, Amy. Who is this bitch to tell Jamie what's right for his life? I understand his reasoning perfectly. There is simply too much too much to risk. I learned the hard way just how much one turd can fuck up your life -- forever. It's not worth it. Settling for someone who feels coerced into having to have somebody sounds like he'd be Mr. OK anyway. Not that Mr. Right is anything other than a figment of the imagination anyway.

I'm writing about this now, in response to an e-mail I got. I think adolescence ends later than ever these days, and also, a guy isn't ready for a relationship until he has his career and life together. It's different or somewhat different for women, I think.

And as for whether somebody should "settle down," they should if they want to. And ideally, people should figure out what works for them, and let the person they're with know whether they can't give them what they seem to want, but life doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes somebody will be with somebody for a few years and then decide they don't want to do it anymore.

Shit happens. Maybe you can adopt.

The modern world as it relates to a mans commitment.
Odds are 60% in favor your commitment will be cancelled
Odds are 75% in favor of your commitment being canceled by the women you`ve committed to. Odds are 90% in favor of this failed commitment the man will pay for a house he`ll never live in and pay for children he`ll rarely, if ever see.

Why would Jamie or any man commit to that when he could live in a house he didn`t pay for and raise kids he isn`t paying for.

Men are a cogent life form and not just walking penises, we do reason these things out.

"... I think this woman's idea of the perfect man would be something like veal."

Too funny! That made me laugh, but sums it up completely!

Pirate Jo,

I understand exactly what you mean about the "fear of commitment" line; but, I will admit, I use it all the time. It's my way to speak "their" language.

The word 'commitment' reminds me of mental institutions (or whatever they're called these days), where you're forced to go and can't leave until someone else lets you.

Is this something that anyone should be striving for?

Boy, I feel I'm playing devil's advocate here.

Commitment - yeah, lots of funny posts about mental institutions etc. Heck, would you go mountaineering with someone who you couldn't depend on when you slip and fall? You want to know that whoever is on the other end of the rope is fully committed to you. Why would you want any less from a spouse? Commitment's what you want from a person if you're willing to give your life for them.

Where the hell's Crid when you need him?

Re: Hymowitz' piece.

If you click on the "selected responses" link on the bottom, there are some decent comments defending men. However, I found this one from Deb to be particularly infuriating:

In television commercials, especially in the past five years, young men are portrayed as mentally and physically and emotionally inept, and proudly so. I found myself wishing for a military draft again. What young men need is to be wrenched away from their families and denied their comfort zones for at least four years. Kind of like what World War II did to a generation of men this country holds in high regard. Thanks so much for writing this article, I'm going to share it with a number of young men.

Yes indeed. Men aren't behaving the way we women want, so let's send them off to war against their will. That'll teach 'em! I can only hope the number of young men she hopes to share the article with see it for what it is...

Re: veal. I read an SF story many years ago where women had taken over and reduced their men to creatures that only developed to babyhood, except for their genitals, so the women could just take one out of the creche for enjoyment from time to time without any messy relationship problems. Or commitment issues (on either side). SF, it's the future.

Kay Hymowitz will be on WGNRadio.com tonight (9-11 CST) talking about her man-child article. The show accepts callers. Any AdviceGoddess readers want to introduce her to reality? That'd be an awesome listen.

>>>I read an SF story many years ago where women had taken over and reduced their men to creatures that only developed to babyhood, except for their genitals, so the women could just take one out of the creche for enjoyment from time to time without any messy relationship problems. Or commitment issues (on either side). SF, it's the future.

Well Norman, I think metrosexuals are half way there. But it doesn't really sound like that bad of a life.

Drat, I'm on deadline, chickity. I'd love to go on the radio and debate her on this.

Reminds me of something I told a former co-worker, who was frustrated by her husband's lack of verbal declarations of affection until after they separated. "Guys just say whatever they have to to get with us, then when they get with us, they think they can just stop."

"So, you expect your husband to be more sensitive and caring? Is that it?" I asked.

She nodded an unspoken "of course."

"Dawn, the reason you can't find guys like that is because guys like that...well, they already have boyfriends."

Dawn just laughed. "It's true," she said.

Well, Amy, sorry you couldn't have called in. That would have been an awesome verbal sparring match.

I've listened to the entire show, and it mostly amounted to "Young people are making decisions that I don't like. And they need to get the hell off my lawn."

"they need to get the hell off my lawn"

heh, you really only have to worry that if they have a shotgun in their hands...

Fun posts to read. Sort of brings to mind a quotation from a noted misogynist (misogynist = any man who does not live to satisfy some woman's every whim): "Why marry? It's easier, and cheaper in the long run just to pick out some woman you don't like and buy her a house."

And for the women who can't understand men's reactions to the what is more and more perceived as a trap, how many of you found ANY part of the Violence Against Women Act to be a little over the top or worthy of opposition? How many of you have given any indication to your legislators that "must arrest" and "primary aggressor" laws couldn't withstand even the penumbra of constitutional scrutiny were any group other than men so disadvantaged?

We learn slow, admittedly, but we do learn!

There may be another layer to this dialogue, and that is that our society's penchant for a kind of totalitarian coupledom - marriage and monogamy - is breaking down.

The divorce and adultery rates would suggest that all is not as it should be in the bedrooms of the faithfully committed.

The real revelation about how little attraction marriage retains for men will arrive in a couple of years when there is a reliable male birth control pill.

No more shotgun weddings; no more 18 years of child support because she "forgot" to take her pill; no more reproductive tyranny with choices limited only for women.

Wait and see. Marriage will become a nostalgic memory within one generation.

Man, all this assumption that it's guys that are gun shy. All this assumption that women want to marry. Hell, fucking, no. Screw giving anyone that much say-so in my life.

Or, in other words:

"Fish, meet bicycle."

My sweety "takes care of me" in many ways. Some mornings, he gets up and makes the coffee and gives my dog breakfast just so I can keep sleeping, and sometimes he helps me with my Java programming assignments. He frets if he doesn't think I'm eating healthy enough (awwww) and generally would "do anything for me." I put that last in quotes because he wouldn't do anything for me if I didn't reciprocate and treat him nicely as well.

But get married? Hell no! Neither one of us is interested. We see each other most evenings but not all, and it works great for both of us. I see no reason to change anything. I think the traditionalist scolds would accuse us of living in perpetual adolescence, but in my view, immature/adolescent thinking is characterized by mindless adherence to a to-do list instead of thinking about things objectively. I'm not on a crusade against marriage, but I don't accept it as a default, either. If you can't give me a good reason to do it, I'm not going to do it "just because."

I have an aunt/uncle set who think I'm doing the lifestyle equivalent of dressing all in black and listening to goth music. They roll their eyes at the idea that I don't care about marriage, thinking I'm trying to be all "anti-establishment" or something. Which would be silly, given that no one else in the world actually cares whether I get married or not. Well, except for that particular aunt/uncle, anyway. ;-)

How is men "not being ready" in their 30s so different from women "not being ready" in their 20s- esp if the same men WERE ready in their 20s but subsequently had a change of heart, perhaps following a hurtful rejection? No evidence is presented to suggest that men later REGRET man-boyhood in the way that women in their 30s are said to lament the paucity of decent, available men. Hence, I suggest it is not a case of "bad-timing" but, rather, you-missed-your-chance when you were a woman-girl in your 20s.

That said, I am a rare missed-my-chance male, having just come out of a relationship with a woman who was unable to commit despite having a baby with me. So, as a single father in his 30s who was ready and willing to commit to a PARTNERSHIP, I have to say single women in their 30s are no picnic, either.

I haven't yet lost romantic notions of a wonderful marriage. But through my experiences over the last 5 years I have a much clearer idea of what I'm worth and won't be so liberal with it in the future!

In short, we must take responsibility for our life choices. Men face rejection all the time. Deal with it! And parenthood is the most wonderful relationship! I love our little bub!

In my dating adventures, I met a lot of guys in their 40s who couldn't wait to get into a committed relationship again, with the goal of marriage, and it scared the hell out of me. I kept thinking, now I know what guys in their 20s feel like.

A lot of men and women are very bitter when it comes to the opposite sex, and I like to avoid all these bitter people, as they usually try to make you miserable too.

I really like men and accept them for who they are, which puts me at odds with a lot of my female friends. I have stopped telling them about my dates because they think I should stop having fun and should be forcing some poor guy to "settle down & grow up".

I am NOT an irresponsible man-boy. I go to work every day and work hard. I take care of myself. I am not an eternal party-animal looking for the quick lay.

It's simply that I no benefit to be married. Most of the women my age have let themselves go because they think men aren't important enough to keep in shape for. Laws discriminate against me. The list goes on.

It would be an irrational man-boy who would want to play house in a legal and social environment like this.