party organiser Dana Shafman would have them believe they could easily be victims of violent crime

Well, couldn't they? Does the author believe there is no violent crime in Denver? Or that violent crime doesn't happen to women like these?

I don't need no steeking Taser. I've got a rifle, a sword, and a long bow. But even if I didn't, I still don't need a Taser. (I do, however, need Tupperware!) If a woman walks with her head up, and looks like she knows where she's going and is aware of her surroundings, and isn't being stupid, chances are she won't be a victim of a violent crime. Stupid ass criminals don't go after confident people, they go after those that look and act weak. Easy prey, as it were. If you don't look and act like a victim, chances are you won't be one. YMMV

Flynne - can you tuck your rifle or long bow into your back pocket or purse?

I also don't think it's about looking like easy prey.

I'm a big person - 5'10 and work out. I can hold my own against women but not men. As I've mentioned before self-defense classes are actually a really bad idea. Many women leave a 2-hour long class and think they can kick some ass. They feel "empowered." This might lead to stupid things like walking down the street alone at 1 AM.

I do NOT think all men are 1) evil 2) want to rape me 3) want to kill me. BUT - if I AM going to be attacked I am 99% confident it will be by a man and I am 100% confident that he would be able to over power me. Why? Because pound for pound men pack way more punch. I dated a skinny guy once - nothing against them, but I want someone I don't think I'll break in half if I sit on his lap. He LOOKED smaller than me but he was significantly stronger.

Why do I mention all of this? Because I don't know any woman who could legitimately hold her own against some dude. Esp. some guy w/ sociopathic tendencies (when there's a will there's a way).

It takes hundreds and hundreds of repetitions to make something instinctual. If a woman has been taking karate her whole life and practices regularly she might stand a chance. But that "knee 'em where it hurts" bullshit is just that - bullshit. Maybe 1/5 women will be able to successfully escape an attacker using brute force but what about the rest? Granted I'm pulling stats from my asshole right now but I feel pretty fucking confident. Thus the unnecessary f-bomb.

A taser isn't a bad idea for women who are regularly in a position where she might not be safe. I.E: walking back to her car after the night shift in the middle of Roxbury. Do you need one while walking around the grocery store? I hope to gods not. This isn't about creating hysteria but I think a little realism is a good idea.

This isn't about creating hysteria but I think a little realism is a good idea.

And of course you're 100% right, Gretchen, and I totally agree with you. But the thing is, the potential for someone with a Taser to abuse using it is also very real. If any woman gets herself a Taser and then goes out looking to use, that wouldn't be such a good thing, especially if she targets someone out of fear, who has no intention of anything other than asking, hey, do you know where (this or that place) is. She panics, she tasers him, ooops, sorry, now she gets herself sued or something. Not saying it would happen, mind you, just that the potential is there. YMMV

Gretchen, you just answered your own question...

IF a woman can't reliably knee somebody, how is she going to fish out a weapon that sorta looks like a gun, aim it when she knows it will paralise, and fire it before she's on the ground?

this is just like those self defense classes, but in hot pink. At least in those classes, you might get some of the actual good tips that would help you with situational awareness if nothing else. Like: DON'T listen to the iPod on the train, or walking on the street, because you want to be able to hear someone behind you. Same with the cell phone. In otherwords don't be oblivious. Look farther ahead down the street. Plus a few other things, like move in packs, not herds. I have a friend who uses her hiking poles when she walks to work, because she goes in early. That prolly would give a mugger pause.

Still, for most people, just being aware of their surroundings, and making a decent decision, would cover 99%. A decent decision like knowing NOT to walk around alone at 1am. In almost any situation, it is unecessary to do that. Take a cab to your car, and make him wait until you have cleared it before paying. Go home with friends, etc.

Taking yourself OUT of the situation does the trick much better than a $350 taser, that you won't rememeber how to use. For any who have had to aim a weapon when in danger, you know what I mean... even when trained, it can go wrong, and I can't remeber how many tazes you get if you miss the first time, don't you have to clear a cartridge?

SwissArmy - If I have to walk to my car, at night, alone in a bad area I carry MASE. As in - I already have it in my had.

Do I think I'll get attacked? Chances are low but higher than usual. I am a slightly paranoid person, but others might call me Type A. I can admit that much.

But let's put it this way: some women are smart but have to get into less-than-desirable situations safety-wise. As a woman in such a situation would I rather have a Taser or my knee?

Not a hard choice. Switching jobs isn't a viable option so that's why BF bought me mase last Christmas.

I was wondering what effect tasers would have for women if they were available in, say, Iraq or Iran.

I believe they're pretty useless against IEDs.

Gretchen - I was just about to say what I'd do, and you do it already. That is, bring it (mace, taser) into your hand, when entering a bad situation. Also, practice using it. For example, what is the best range to fire at? Where to aim? What to do if there is more than one attacker? What to do after tasing? Best not to have to figure these things out from first principles at short notice.

Amy - "I believe they're pretty useless against IEDs."

I was thinking about those public-spirited gentlemen who throw acid in women's faces to encourage modesty.

There is an 80-20 rule that can help you. 80% of problems can be avoided with 20% of the effort.

1) Shut the hell up when you are walking in a parking lot. Do not have a cell phone in your face, don't have all your attention focused on blah blah blah. Scan your surroundings.

2) In that same parking lot, have your keys in your hand, with the car door key ready. That way you don't fumble for them, causing your awareness to go away. A nice keychain knife like:
http://www.safetyenforcement.com/keychainknife.html

3) Don't be a drunken whore. That includes both parts, the drunk in public part, and the willingness to get it on with numerous strangers part. Both set you up for disaster.

4) Don't think for a moment that you can kick the butt of a man. I don't care if you saw "Kill Bill" twice, or think Laura Croft is real. If you have ever been punched with FULL FORCE by a man you have broken bones or disfigurement to show for it. You are not built for combat, so don't get into battle zones, and that includes walking in dangerous places at night, or using your mouth whn you don't know exactly how pissed the target of your mouth may become.

5) Stop dating "bad boys". They are bad. Duh.

Thanks, Smarty. Being street smart and not being so arrogant as to think you can be talking on your cell phone, etc., instead of having your wits about you and exercising judgement is a big part of it.

A big problem I have with feminism is how they emphasize what "should" be and what they wish would be (the view that men and women are not only equal under the law but the same) over what is: women have less muscle mass and upper-body strength than men and most women can be easily overpowered by most men.

If you're a woman who wants to exercise those fantasies ("Kill Bill," etc., get a copy of "Grand Theft Auto IV." And be wary as you're walking from the store to the car if you don't buy it online.

"Gretchen - I was just about to say what I'd do, and you do it already. That is, bring it (mace, taser) into your hand, when entering a bad situation. Also, practice using it. For example, what is the best range to fire at? Where to aim? What to do if there is more than one attacker? What to do after tasing? Best not to have to figure these things out from first principles at short notice."

Problem is, it's not as simple as practicing with a firearm or pepper spray. You get one shot per cartridge, and they cost $25-$30 each. It'd be nice if they made practice-cartridges, ones that didn't have the electronics, just the electrodes and propellant...but I couldn't find that. I haven't even seen classes offered in my area on the proper use of them, either. I can get (and have) training on how to operate a firearm, ASP baton, all sorts of stuff, but not a taser (unless, I presume, you're in law enforcement).

A hand-held stun gun (no range, but you get more than one shot) could probably warn off people fairly effectively as well. Most now come with 100+ dB sirens as well.

tazers will be just as ineffective for women as are guns because the vast majority of the female population is not cognizant of the threats around them. Yes, talking on cell phones, acting drunk and stupid outside bars, and not generally being cognizant of the quick-changing environment around them. With my gf living alone in downtown Philly, i've had to sit her down a number of times and explain that she needs to be on the lookout everytime she leaves her apt. But she's not, and she doesn't. If women are anything like her, and I think most of them are, having a tazer or a gun will be of no use. They'll be instantly subdued unless they have the weapon in thier hands. Moroever, women have too much sh!t in thier handbags, which i think will delay necessarily quick action on thier part.

Case history shows that untrained women armed with knives have taken on multiple male attackers and killed or maimed them with great effectiveness.

I heard a lecture by Steve Tarani where a woman was attacked by two men, but made it to their kitchen where she picked up a butcher knife and proceeded to slice the rapists to ribbons eventually killing them. They outweighed her by 300 pounds. Everytime they got close, she sliced them and stabbed them. The terror was all theirs.

The knife rules the day in most of the violent encounters a woman could run into including a gun at close range.

A four inch folding knife can be carried in a pocket by most women. And a six inch screwdriver should be placed under each of her front seats as most rapes occur with the woman prone on her front seat. Nothing like six inches of steel in your head.

Good training takes just a couple of days. Its a good alternative to a gun and much better than a taser.

http://www.edgedweaponsolutions.com/training/training.html

Gretchen, from your Roxbury reference I'm assumimg you live in Mass. Just an FYI. That Mace your BF gave you requires a permit in this pathetic state. I think the fee is waived but you are still required by law to fill out an application and get approved by your local Police Chief. No doubt this law is necessary to protect us from all those drive by macings you read about in the media. Oh, wait. That's just silly. But that never stops the socialists in this state from passing a law.

Sean - yes, you need a FID card to carry mase in mass!

Perhaps, Austin. But a friend of mine was the head of trauma at a big city emergency room for years and I remember one of the first lessons she said she learned as a woman was to "throw the knife." If you're lucky enough to get the knife from the man, don't think you're going to be able to stab through muscle and bone and seriously maim him enough to stop him. Instead you're more likely to graze him at best and piss him off. And then he's really going to hurt you. THROW THE KNIFE. She came to this conclusion, by the way, because every weekend she saw men with multiple but mostly superficial knife wounds walk on their own into her E.R.

"to be on the lookout everytime she leaves her apt." jd.

well Honus, you've got yourself the all time no win situations there... Either you can get yourself there to escort her out and risk her ire for being a cro-magnon about it or you can treat her like the adult she is. And worry. When I used to live in Chicago, I had a similar problem with my gf, and I got the following advice that I'll pass to you: don't just lay it out to her, acting like she should just see it. Tell her that you worry over her safety, even though you know she can take care of herself. Then tell her a few tricks of the trade, and that you'd be easier in your own mind if she would use them.

Sometimes it is interesting what things we will do to keep another from worry, that we wouldn't do for ourselves...

I am a second degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. I *may* have an advantage over a man, but that mostly comes from years of practicing and knowing damn well you have to a) minimize the chance you'll be in a situation that requires you to defend yourself (and that means pay attention to your surroundings and DON'T put yourself in a position where you can't escape, such as "oh, we just went to his room to talk". Yeah, right. Idiot.) and b) knowing enough to wait for an opportunity if you are accosted. I dropped a 300 lb. guy once during class by accidentally kicking him in the kneecap. Trust me, forget the family jewels, they all know about that. Go for the knee. They can't chase you if they're lying on the ground crying for their mommies, and women have more power in their legs than their arms. Also, NEVER let the guy take you from the original crime scene. You're dead if you do. If you're going to die anyway, you'd better make your stand right there, because at least you have some hope of escape. Once he gets you out in the woods, you've got nothing. And scratch, bite, whatever you have to do. Get as much of his DNA on you as you can. At least if he wins, you'll get him put away for the rest of his life so he won't get anyone else.

I also agree that if you're going to carry a weapon (taser, gun, knife) you need to have it OUT and KNOW how to use it. Trying to dig it out of your purse is going to get you killed, and really, the guy is probably going to take it away from you and use it on you, anyway.

And that is my PSA for the day. :)

I couldn't find a rabid German Shepherd in the satchel-as-purse that I carry around (not in any sort of timely manner, anyway) -- which is why I always get my keys out while I'm still in the restaurant or wherever.

JulieA - "She came to this conclusion, by the way, because every weekend she saw men with multiple but mostly superficial knife wounds walk on their own into her E.R."

That's a biased sample. She didn't see the ones in the morgue. Not saying she's necessarily wrong, but the logic is faulty and it may well have led her to a wrong conclusion.

I have no doubt it's a biased sample but it's a bias she built on decades as an ER doc at one of the country's busiest urban hospitals. And my gut tells me she's likely right (and that the morgue stats would bear her out). Stabbing someone hard enough to take them down is tough busines. I'm seriously strong for my size, but my size is still teeny. Even with two hands, I don't know that I could get through muscle and bone to inflict enough - or any real - damage on a guy who had 50 or more pounds on me. I used to kickbox competitively, and my real-life strategy (in theory at least) has always been to get one good shot in that the guy doesn't see coming and in the two seconds it takes for him to realize that a girl just whacked him pretty hard to run like hell.

Also, NEVER let the guy take you from the original crime scene. You're dead if you do. If you're going to die anyway, you'd better make your stand right there, because at least you have some hope of escape.

Oh yeah, from what I understand, that's the Number #1 rule of self-defense. If someone holds a gun on you and insists that you leave the place that you are and go somewhere else with him (or her), sit down and say no. Might he shoot you? Yes, but if he does, he was almost certainly going to shoot you anyway. You will suffer less, your loved ones will have a better chance of knowing what happened to you, and the cops will have a better chance of catching the creep. In addition, he's probably less likely to kill you in the original place, especially if it's semi-public.

With my gf living alone in downtown Philly, i've had to sit her down a number of times and explain that she needs to be on the lookout everytime she leaves her apt.

Here's the thing, j.d. - I'm always on the lookout. I follow Smarty's rules and share Amy's approach to my physical safety. I am cautious. And then I see my male friends, who don't have to do ANY of that and think nothing about traveling through, say, Turkey alone, and I get a little frustrated. It's almost as though this is a tax imposed on women that doesn't affect men. Should men be more cautious about the world? Probably. Will the average man ever need to be as cautious as I am? No.

I know, I know - there are advantages to being a woman and there are advantages to being a man. But a saying I heard a while back resonates with me: A man's greatest fear is that a woman will laugh at him, while a woman's greatest fear is that a man will kill her. Many more women have laughed at men than men have killed women, at least in the modern era...but the potential penalty for failure of judgment is higher on our side. I try to lead a reality-based life, but there are times when reality depresses me and I wish that I could go live in Heinlein's Luna City.

"Will the average man ever need to be as cautious as I am? No."

That's a good point marion and I share your frustration.

BF doesn't really put himself into dangerous situations but also doesn't really pay attention to his surroundings like I do. If someone were to follow me off the T I'm probably going to realize it. We've discussed this; he just doesn't get scared. He also doesn't lock his door at night when he sleeps. I think this is foolish b/c he sleeps like a log and if someone wanted to break in they easily could. I keep the door locked with I'm IN the house just hanging out. Sleeping with the front door unlocked seems to be an unnecessary risk. He tells me I'm paranoid (I am) and don't trust people enough (uh, all it takes is one person to sneak into your house and stab you in your sleep!).

He could definitely take down another person if needed but I think prevention is half the battle. I do get a little jealous that he's so strong and such a skilled fighter (MMA/submission fighting, 2nd degree black belt in Kempo) and doesn't need to worry about his physical safety nearly as much as I do.

"doesn't really put himself into dangerous situations" --> except for not locking his door at night...

Any weapon no matter how well designed or lethal is useless if a) You don't know how to use it b) don't have it ready when your attacked. Tazers are single shot weapons and you need to get both pins into the target. They spread more at greater range so the further away the target is the greater the chances of only hitting with one.

One off self deffence classes are as stated before very dangerous. Anything that gives you a false sense of security is. A kick in the nuts will likely enrage the assailant but won't actually stop him for very long. The knee thing (my knee hurts just thinking about it) is correct but it's not that easy to do and unless you get just the right spot takes a fair amount of force. Also if you shoot for the knee and miss your in a really vulnerable spot even from any of the Kung Fu stances I know or can think of. One other think about Kung Fu (or most MA) is that the biggest thing you learn is how to take a hit and not get hurt. This takes YEARS of practice and can not be taught even by Grand Masters in a 2 hour course.

I have one tidbit to add to Ann's advice, if you are on the ground do not try to get up, counter intuitive I know but Sei Fu(sp) showed us all why. Kick from the floor when they approach, and make sure that they are at your legs not your head.

US Cav used to sell tazer practice ammo don't know if they still do.

Lots of good insight in this thread and some conflicting advice. My own .02 is informed by seven years of Krav Maga training, so take it for whatever its worth:

1. "As I've mentioned before self-defense classes are actually a really bad idea. Many women leave a 2-hour long class and think they can kick some ass."

I don't agree with this. In general, self-defense theory goes like this: "training is good, experience is better, but nothing is more important than being willing to inflict harm on the other person." So I would argue that any training is better than none. The type of person who would get amped to start trouble after a one-off class is likely a trouble-maker anyway.

2. "you are on the ground do not try to get up, counter intuitive I know but Sei Fu(sp) showed us all why. Kick from the floor when they approach, and make sure that they are at your legs not your head."

Well, this advice isn't bad if you really can't get up off from the floor, but I would advise that you get up and out of there as soon as possible. Staying on the floor leaves you very vulnerable to your attacker's friends and long-distance weapons. Its a bad position of weakness and it robs you of any escape strategy.

3. "If someone holds a gun on you and insists that you leave the place that you are and go somewhere else with him (or her), sit down and say no."

I'll add some legal flavor to this as well. By moving you, the attacker has now committed kidnapping (as opposed to "mere" assault with a deadly weapon), which makes an extended 25 to life term much more likely. So he has nothing to lose by killing you. But sitting down might take you out of range of being able to do anything. It may sound scary, but in this scenario, attacking the gunman may be the only chance you have to stay alive.

4. Kicking the nuts is better than kneeing them because you can do so out of the range of your assailant's arms. If you're close enough to be giving knees, you are likely being choked or punched.

5. Knives are more dangerous than guns. Guns have only one zone of danger (the direction of the muzzle), while knives generally have two edged sides (for slicing), and a point (for puncturing).

6. I don't like mace or pepper spray because too many women leave them in their purse unattended for years. These things leak or gunk up and can be difficult to use when needed.

7. "Still, for most people, just being aware of their surroundings, and making a decent decision, would cover 99%."

Still the best advice around. Of the dozens of supremely talented instructors I've encountered, the only ones who have had to implement techniques in life-threatening encounters were soldiers or policemen. The civilian black belts are smart enough to avoid bad situations.

8. Never live in Philadelphia.

Again, here are the professionals in firearms self-defense:

Thunder Ranch

Gunsite

The Lethal Force Institute

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And check your local laws personally, at your own State's Web site or at an actual legislative office. The methods and circumstances of self-defense allowed to you differ from state to state, and within some cities. Never believe someone's opinion about the law. You must find it yourself and study the original content, because you will be betting the rest of your life on the court's decision about your conduct, even if you are not the perpetrator, in some cases.

The thing about knives is so many people think you hold perpedicular to the ground and drive it it. You need to hold it parallel to the ground. That way you can slid it between the ribs.

Though for someone with no training the best move with a knife is to thrust it up between the diaphram and the sternum, no bones to deal with, and if your lucky you puncture the heart or the spleen, with any luck the guy would bleed out fairly quickly.

> That way you can slid
> it between the ribs.

Love this blog. Covers everything.

For the record, this "Men don't have as much to fear" stuff gets out of hand very quickly.

Lot of truth to it though. Awhile back a female friend wanted to practice some of her self defense stuff on me. I didn't punch, slap, or kick, just had to get her "helpless" to "win". Her best efforts were more or less futile. At my size & weight, all I really had to do was get hands on her.

For some reason women forget, that just because a man's touch can be very light, and very gentle, that does not mean it can never be very tight at need. It was a sobering reminder for her that knowledge is not enough by itself, and that there is no subsitute for the good sense to avoid dangerous situations in the first place.

Park in a well lit area, keep your eyes open, have your keys in hand by the time you get to your car, don't date assholes, and if your hesitant about an area, don't go alone, or simply don't go atall. And no, men do not generally mind acting as a body guard walking across a parking lot. Ask security for a brief escort, its their job to ensure the safety of their business's patrons.