That is the Arab mentality. If a women puts herself into a position to be raped, then she gets what she deserves. That is the Saudi way. I watched as several young Saudi's laughed at a real video of a women being abducted off the street and raped by three Saudi men. They were laughing and having a good time watching this. They are indeed sick. Read the book "Paramedic to the Prince" it was written by an American paramedic that worked for the King and spent ten years working in Saudi. Read the book and you will see the Saudi that Bush and his buddies don't want you to see.

I've got to do a better job of making it clear when I talk about Islam [that] I talk about a peaceful religion.

If you start rationally analyzing and criticizing the major religion of our enemies, you're dangerously close to rationally analyzing and criticizing our major religion. That is NOT a can of worms politicians want to open - especially republicans.

Dawkins said it well.

Great stuff from Dawkins:

Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper? If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this - it's a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn't we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don't be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn't appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there's a special martyr's reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive.

Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men too unattractive to get a woman in this world might be desperate enough to go for 72 private virgins in the next.

It's a tall story, but worth a try. You'd have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.

...I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?

Luckily, Judaism and Christianity (these days) just want your money, not your lives.

Whoa, one guy says something unacceptable and the whole country is blamed? I'm no fan of Saudi Arabia, but they do treat rapists appropriately: http://tinyurl.com/66qugk

Regards,
Shukri

Ah, I see we have the Islamic apologist in our midst.

On Friday, authorities also beheaded Saudi citizen Khalaf al-Anzi in Riyadh for kidnapping and raping a teenager, the statement said. According to the Saudi Press agency, Khalaf filmed the rape with his own telephone.

When Al-Anzi attempted to abduct a second adolescent, the teenager managed to flee and notify police, it added.

The guy was a kidnapper and I'm guessing, from the way the story was written, it's very possible the guy was raping boys, not girls.

Women are just pieces of shit that can be fucked and bear children in Saudi Arabia. Women in any Islamic country don't fare too well. Can't drive, can't testify in court against a man, etc., etc.

Any Muslim who doesn't speak up against this shit is complicit in it in a way.

If atheists were killing people and denying people rights, I'd sure as hell be condemning them -- loudly and clearly and actively.

Here you are, piping up with the defense that the Saudis aren't such bad folks. You're reprehensible and lack humanity.

More here on the barbarian Islamic republic of Saudi Arabia, and what happens, by LAW, when a WOMAN is raped:

http://www.whatthefak.com/geography/middle-east/0070-only-saudi-arabia

BBC reported this tragic case of a 19-year old Saudi Arabian woman who was gang-raped by 7 men and has been sentenced to 6 months in prison and 200 lashes for her ‘crime.’ What crime you ask? She was the VICTIM of a gang-rape. What the fak did she do? She failed to adhere to the country’s faked-up segregation law, a rather strict interpretation of Islamic law that forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other. She was in a car with a strange man at the time of the attack. Initially sentenced to a mere 90 lashes for doing nothing wrong in the civilized world, she pissed off the Saudi court of injustice by appealing her unjust sentence which prompted the court to punish her even further by doubling her punishment. How dare she complain or expect justice in a faked up place like Saudi Arabia? After all, she’s probably lucky she wasn’t sentenced to death for failing to submit to a man’s sexual urges or because one of her 7 assailants didn’t reach orgasm while sexually assaulting her. For fak’s sake, in the oh-so-civilized Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, beheadings and stonings are recreational public spectacles as if they’re sports events, like an American baseball game, rather than displays of the kingdom’s barbaric methods of punishment.

Women, the turds of Islam.

And you, Shukri, are a barbarian for defending the system -- and, in turn, the religion -- behind this barbarianism.

More still here, on the fate of women in Islamic countries:

http://tinyurl.com/6rer6o

"If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place..."

What about people who are expected to risk their lives like police officers, fire fighters and soldiers?

"...devaluing effect that religion has on human life...but devaluing one's own life."

Comparing Islamic and Christian versions of martydom is comparing apples and oranges. One is rewarded for killing infidels the other is rewarded for forgiving those that do wrong to them.

Risking your life is not the same thing as throwing it away. In an evolutionary sense, it can bring you benefit to be seen as a person who acts on behalf of the group -- either in reputation or because you further your gene pool (group selection) by doing it.

Furthermore, I've been told by Christians that if I don't accept Jesus as my savior, I'll go to hell (they have no evidence of this, but suck down whatever they're told by the clergy), but if Adolf Hitler accepted Jesus before he killed himself, he can go to heaven.

Religion is idiotic, and often evil, but of all the religions out there, Islam is the most backward and the most evil.

Actually, if Hitler accepted Jesus, and then killed himself, he's still on the Hell Express.

Suicide is the only sin that cannot be forgiven because the sinner can no longer confess and repent.

Brian, that is a Catholic thing. Confessing to a priest was a tool to keep the church in "the know" and in power during the dark ages.

Amy, this isn't a smart ass question:

Have you ever thought of going to an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia to see for yourself what life there is like? To interview women? I would be very interested in reading about your interpretation.

Smart-ass questions are fine, but good question. I wouldn't think I'd get fair answers unless I talked secretly to women and I don't think it's possible for me to go in under the radar. The women I spoke to might be endangered (if authorities so much as Googled me). Also, I'm afraid to go anywhere women are so imperiled, by law and otherwise.

brian most christin sects belive that final judgment will occur after death, therefore if at anytime durring your judgment you accept jesus you get a golden ticket

BTW catholic are morons, moreso than most christian, care to provide any scriptual athority for suicide being an unforgivable sin?

Or babptism by non imersion, or the preisthood celebecy, of worshiping idols, excuse me icons of 'saints'

You should check out "Princess" by Jean P. Sasson. It’s set during the late 80’s and early 90’s. It’s a true story about a Saudi princess. (Yeah, I know, the title kind of gives that away.) Anyway, it is a very intimate look at a Saudi woman’s life in the Kingdom. It’s hard to read though because it makes the horror much more personal. Plus, this is a woman of royalty. After you finish reading the book its hard not to imagine what its like for the "lower class".

It's when I read stuff like this that I almost wish I still had a religion so that I could pray for a way to stop this evil, abominable shit from permeating our world. But that's pretty fucked up, since the shit is born of religion, and religion is irrational, keeps people passive, etc. It's just that I feel so helpless, and that makes me want to appeal to a higher power. What can we do against this monstrosity? Such fanaticism seems guaranteed to grow and sustain itself, and so many people are blind to or refuse to acknowledge the danger of Islam. I guess all one CAN do is spread the word, like you do in your blog. Do you see yourself as making a difference??

I think so, in that people tell me they're aware when they weren't before because of what I post here.

As far as solutions go, they aren't easy to come by: I have suggestions -- operate according to reality not fantasy when it comes to dealing with Islam and Muslim countries. For example, we have this goal of bringing democracy to a collectivist society. Is that even possible?

Saudi Arabians, Iranians, etc., would all be a bunch of goatherds but for our dependence on their oil. I drive a Honda Insight, and spent a little over $200 on gas last year. If I owned my house, I'd put on solar panels and take other steps like that.

Just a couple examples. Debbie Schlussel shows many ways we're acting contrary to our interest in terms of the way we treat Muslims in our own society who have interests contrary to our own, to say the least.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/

I'm just saying - it's highly unlikely that Hitler would have gotten away with offing himself in the grand scheme. Something about "no go forth and sin no more" - Jesus' own exhortation to those he had forgiven.

Of course, I'm not really on board with the whole religion thing, since all religions require at some level claiming to know the mind of God. How this is to be achieved is never fully explained, but almost always involves experiences that sound suspiciously like an acid trip.

Oh, and back to Winston's original statement:

"If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place..."

The mere existence of religion springs up from the fact that rational humans are as rare as hen's teeth. The Jews had to come up with laws against eating foods that weren't readily at hand (namely shellfish and pork) because people would eat them and die from the food poisoning. People didn't care if they died, but the thought of getting on God's bad side brought them in line very quickly.

There's something to divine retribution that has a tendency to make all but the worst humans behave. Unfortunately, a great many people want to do away with religion because they can't prove God exists. The majority of religious folk would not be able to function without a God to lean on, and a large percentage of the human race would no longer care a lick for upholding even the most trivial of social norms in the absence of fear of the hand of God.

Intelligence is not a dominant trait among humans. Believing it to be is inherently dangerous.

I don't understand this part of the passage from JihadWatch:

So is Obama under a death sentence? Probably not. As far as I know Obama has never explained when he left Islam and became a Christian. This is a crucial point, for according to Islamic law an apostate male is not to be put to death if he has not reached puberty (cf. 'Umdat al-Salik o8.2; Hidayah vol. II p. 246). Some, however, hold that he should be imprisoned until he is of age and then "invited" to accept Islam, but officially the death penalty for youthful apostates is ruled out.

Is Spencer uncertain about whether Obama has reached puberty? He has two children, I think that is rather conclusive evidence that he is post-pubescent, and thus, by Islamic law, eligible for death.

Any politician who refers to Islam as a religion of peace is sadly mistaken. It is the religion of submission.

Look on the bright side, Gary - nothing coalesces the American spirit like a good assassination.

So, if Obama were to be elected, and he were to have a fatwa issued against him, and he were to be killed by J. Random Muslim, we'd be nuking Tehran in 15 minutes.

Maybe an Obama victory wouldn't be the worst outcome after all?

I just went thru airport security in a small conservative city. As I was putting my shoes back on, and the guy next to me was doing the same, I said "Just think, we wouldn't have to do all this if we just stopped issues visas to people from places like Saudi Arabia. It took him 5 seconds to say "You'll never be president".

Well folks, he is right. We are stuck trying to balance a free nation with people from hell.

I'm with you there.

But, what do we do about the terrorists within -- like in Great Britain -- who want to come here? How do we stop them?

Gary C, I saw Obama on Good Morning America (ABC) this morning before I left for work, and he said "I'm a christian; I've never been a muslim."

Amy, as far as terrorists within? I've not a clue as to how to stop them from coming here. Isn't there a "list" of some sort? And for those not on the list, we just have to watch them more carefully, I guess. I participate in Harris Online Polls (won a cruise from them once, it was sweet!), and at the end of each poll, there is a question that asks what you think is a serious invasion of privacy, using cookies to track where you go on the internet, screening of potential employees for AIDS, telemarketers calling your home, and thorough searches at airports based on profiling. I've said yes to all except the profiling question.

securing the borders, and having a more stringent and narrowly tailored legal-immigration policy, and have stricter deportation policies. My comment shouldn't be necessary, but is. It is no different than how the human body defends itself against viruses and bacteria. If you don't have skin, white blood cells, etc...you're pretty much fvcked.

But I wonder, what if they were christian funamentalists (instead of fundamentalist muslims)who in mass numbers immigrated to this country to edit our laws and transpose thier own into our legal doctrines? Would your reaction by any different?

Personally, I think it should be just the same.

JD, I do feel the same about the Christian fundamentalists that are invading this country. Unfortunately, they are invading from within (as Amy mentions) and there isn't as much as we can do about them. Frankly, the talk exposing them is doing some good and, fortunately, they aren't (yet anyway) into genocide. Well, unless you count those shooting abortion providers, etc. And let's remember the Oklahoma City terror, for instance, was home-grown. Still, toughening our immigration laws and actually freaking enforcing them would be a start. Why not require English? And how about a question about respecting the laws of the country even when it's contrary to your religious beliefs? (Yes, I know these nutbags will lie; that doesn't mean we shouldn't stress we won't tolerate kill the infidels mentality; that religious freedom doesn't mean you can inflict harm without consequence as long as you do it in the name of god.) I used to think making it the official language unnecessary but I think those proposing it were smarter than I was. My grandson in Pre-K is being required to learn to count to 1 to 10 in English and Spanish and that's ridiculous. He's well over 10, close to 100, in English but he could be held back for not knowing uno, dos, tres... despite PBS' obsession with forcing it on him? That's insane.

WHY DON,T YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN ,OR ARE THEY NOT WORTH WORRYING?

According to a survey commissioned by the Justice and Health and Human Services departments released on 17 November 1998, it was reported that, "One in six U.S. women and one in thirty-three U.S. men have been raped at some time in their life (rape_study)." This startling statistic proves that rape is a very prevalent problem in our society today, and the problem is only getting worse. Former Attorney General Janet Reno spoke out against rape and other violent acts in a report that was published in the Washington Bureau of The Dallas MorningNews. She is quoted as reminding the public that, "We've got a problem of rape, a serious problem of rape," and that "the surveys that have just been concluded show that "much remains to be done"(Landers, Jim).

Rape affects our society in a very forceful way. Not only is it damaging to the rape victim, but family, loved ones and others are affected as well, including the rapist him/herself. So many stories come behind the statistics that society focuses on. Many of these stories have been posted in an article simply named, "Storied Behind the Stats." Lisa, a survivor, admits that she "still lives with shadows of the past." Jennifer tells us that she has "gone through extensive therapy . . . and it still hurts." Miya says that, though she has never been raped, she does feel for those who have been. S.Y. wonders "if rapists and/or molesters ever stop to think about the hurt that they are going to create." Mothers and fathers of victimized children often go through therapy, too, wishing that there was something they could have been done to prevent what happened to their child. Rape never affects just a single individual; it affects society as a whole. (Rapebbs; ABCnews.com)

LOOK WHAT THE SO CALLED PERFECT SOCIETY IS DOING TO IT,S CHILDREN!

Child Sexual Abuse

No. 9; Updated May 2008

Child sexual abuse has been reported up to 80,000 times a year, but the number of unreported instances is far greater, because the children are afraid to tell anyone what has happened, and the legal procedure for validating an episode is difficult. The problem should be identified, the abuse stopped, and the child should receive professional help. The long-term emotional and psychological damage of sexual abuse can be devastating to the child.

Child sexual abuse can take place within the family, by a parent, step-parent, sibling or other relative; or outside the home, for example, by a friend, neighbor, child care person, teacher, or stranger. When sexual abuse has occurred, a child can develop a variety of distressing feelings, thoughts and behaviors.

No child is psychologically prepared to cope with repeated sexual stimulation. Even a two or three year old, who cannot know the sexual activity is wrong, will develop problems resulting from the inability to cope with the overstimulation.

The child of five or older who knows and cares for the abuser becomes trapped between affection or loyalty for the person, and the sense that the sexual activities are terribly wrong. If the child tries to break away from the sexual relationship, the abuser may threaten the child with violence or loss of love. When sexual abuse occurs within the family, the child may fear the anger, jealousy or shame of other family members, or be afraid the family will break up if the secret is told.

A child who is the victim of prolonged sexual abuse usually develops low self-esteem, a feeling of worthlessness and an abnormal or distorted view of sex. The child may become withdrawn and mistrustful of adults, and can become suicidal.

Some children who have been sexually abused have difficulty relating to others except on sexual terms. Some sexually abused children become child abusers or prostitutes, or have other serious problems when they reach adulthood.

Often there are no obvious external signs of child sexual abuse. Some signs can only be detected on physical exam by a physician.

Sexually abused children may also develop the following:

* unusual interest in or avoidance of all things of a sexual nature
* sleep problems or nightmares
* depression or withdrawal from friends or family
* seductiveness
* statements that their bodies are dirty or damaged, or fear that there is something wrong with them in the genital area
* refusal to go to school
* delinquency/conduct problems
* secretiveness
* aspects of sexual molestation in drawings, games, fantasies
* unusual aggressiveness, or
* suicidal behavior

Child sexual abusers can make the child extremely fearful of telling, and only when a special effort has helped the child to feel safe, can the child talk freely. If a child says that he or she has been molested, parents should try to remain calm and reassure the child that what happened was not their fault. Parents should seek a medical examination and psychiatric consultation.

Parents can prevent or lessen the chance of sexual abuse by:

* Telling children that if someone tries to touch your body and do things that make you feel funny, say NO to that person and tell me right away
* Teaching children that respect does not mean blind obedience to adults and to authority, for example, don't tell children to, Always do everything the teacher or baby-sitter tells you to do
* Encouraging professional prevention programs in the local school system

Sexually abused children and their families need immediate professional evaluation and treatment. Child and adolescent psychiatrists can help abused children regain a sense of self-esteem, cope with feelings of guilt about the abuse, and begin the process of overcoming the trauma. Such treatment can help reduce the risk that the child will develop serious problems as an adult.

For additional information see Facts for Families:
#4 The Depressed Child
#5 Child Abuse
#10 Teen Suicide
#28 Responding to Child Sexual Abuse
#62 Talking to Your Kids about Sex
#73 Self-Injury in Adolescents
#00 Definition of a Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist

See also: Your Child (1998 Harper Collins) / Your Adolescent (1999 Harper Collins)

Click here to order Your Child from Harper Collins
Click here to order Your Adolescent from Harper Collins
Excerpts from Your Child on Sexual Abuse

Many parents are unsure or squeamish about bringing up sexual matters, especially with their children. Yet, there are ways of laying the groundwork so that you can talk to your child without scaring her. Establish an open dialogue about sexual issues early on. If you introduce the subject of sex in a discussion of abuse, there is the danger that the idea of sex may become automatically linked in your child’s mind with danger and anxiety.

If you have fostered in your child a sense of ownership regarding her body, she will likely have an instinct about what is okay for her body and what is not. You build on her natural sense of ownerships of her body by letting her pick out her own clothes or wash herself in her own way. Also, avoid pushing her to kiss or hug other adults when she clearly does not want to.

Finally, when parents treat their children’s bodies with respect, children tent to demand that others treat their bodies in a similar manner. Children who are consistently hit, grabbed, or physically punished at home may feel that adults are entitled to misuse their bodies simply because they are bigger.

SO AKHTER your going the 'you dont have any right to judge because look at what you have done' route?

Well AKHTER there is one small difference, on the one hand we have you defending a religion that encourages such actions. And on the other hand you have we horrible americans who condem such actions by INDIVIDUALS,

Also we have set up a system to punish criminals, you are defending a ystem which praises criminals and punishes victims

So I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say with the utmost sincerity

GO
FUCK
YOURSELF
YOU
FUCKING
PIECE
OF
SHIT

fyi mo-homo-ed (may he name be shit on forever) was a child rapist and I'll bet he fucked boys as well

Donna,

Christian fundimentalists have always been here. They founded the country, so feel free to take your liberal atheist butt and live elsewhere. And calling OK City anything having to do with Christianity is a blood libel.

Child sexual abuse stats are highly inaccurate -- I've written about the flawed methodology of some of the researchers -- so to haul off with a figure of 80,000 is just ridiculous. And of reported cases? Do you realize how many that is? We'd never have room for news of all the barbarians of Islam blowing up the infidels because all we'd ever have on the news would be child sexual abuse reports.

But on from your bullshit, here's the real deal: In our society, child sexual abuse is a crime. People are horrified and disgusted by it. In Islam, Mohammed had it written into the Quran so he could marry a 6-year-old and fuck her at 9. And so other Muslim men could likewise treat little girls as receptacles for their dicks. Yes, in Islam, child-fucking is a religious right.

FYI, Smarty, this country wasn't founded by a bunch of religious nutters. Jefferson, for example, had little respect for Christianity.

The problem is with the Abrahamic religions in general. The only reason Christians aren't acting as psycho is because since the Enlightment, the secularists have taken over. Otherwise, they'd still be happily burning folks at the stake and hanging them and whatnot.

Islam isn't any worse than Christianity (and don't kid yourself, if the Christians still had the social power to get away with being psycho, they would). The problem is most of the Muslim world hasn't had an Enlightment.

Amy beat me to it, Smarty. Learn a little history, will you? If you're talking about the Pilgrims and the wackos in Salem, uh, hello, that was prior to the formation of the United States. Way prior.

Agreed, Nicole. Absolutely. The stuff in the Bible is as despicable as the stuff in the Koran. Thank God (pun intended) they don't follow that stuff any more than I do. And save me from the true believers.

You dont suppose I hurt AKHTER's feelings do you?

America was not founded by Jews or atheists.

Ever hear of the pilgrims? Ever hear of the "Protestant Work Ethic"? And let us not call them nutters. Those nutters let Jews like you come here when you were being butchered and held down everywhere else. Way to say "thanks".

And Donna, your nasty and vile comments directed towards Christianity and the bible are based in ignorance. The Koran tells people to enslave and kill and hold down non-muslims. The bible doesn't, and it is rare that it is used as an excuse to. Unless you are one of those liberal POS Jews who think that having a Christmas tree in a school is tantamount to horsewhipping women for reporting rape.

Nicole, the US is 70+% Christian, we have the power to go whacko. We don't because we are Christian. If the US was even 25% muslim, we would have daily bloodbaths and church burnings. Jewish centers would be the first to go. Don't get hysterical.

Amy, we need to stop taking in refugees from muslim countries. The socialists in the UN and the State Department are making sure that we seed our communities with muslims to weaken us. Their own criteria for relocation here is to put refugees in places with lower welfare utilization, which is code for "not many blacks/latinos". Since minorities vote liberal (not all, just 90%), this way they can try to turn areas into 51% liberal. Funny, it is voters in high welfare areas that support importing "diversity", but they stick the rest of us with the consequences.

The US is 70+% Christian, but not in the same way we were Christian before the Enlightment. The vast majority of Christians do not interpret the Bible literally. The ones who do, make the news. We don't go nuts, not because we are Christian, but because we have become secularized Christians.

We DID go whacko before we became secularized. We engaged in Crusades, Inquisitions, and other bloodbaths. We don't do it any more, because we have evolved beyond that. But Christianity certainly HAS used the Bible to justify killing unbelievers, and slavery. It is just that, because we are no longer so literal in our religion, we don't do it any more.

Speaking of which, if Obama actually did leave Islam, or is perceived to have left Islam, he could be in some serious trouble, thanks to Mohammed's edict about Muslim apostasy, "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." Robert Spencer writes at Jihadwatch:

Barack Obama never left Islam--because he was never Muslim. His mother who raised was an atheist or agnostic. Yes, his father and step-father were nominally Muslim (though even then, many Muslims think that Indonesian Muslims aren't real Muslims), but Obama himself never declared himself a Muslim and was fairly areligious till he became a Christian. For more, read snopes.com's debunking: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Do you really think the Muslims who murder "infidels" are working with a high level of logic and a respect for facts?

"FYI, Smarty, this country wasn't founded by a bunch of religious nutters."

The Declaration of Independence mentions a supreme being not once, but twice.

Gen. Washington ordered his troops to attend church services. Washington also mentions "Almighty God" in at least one speech.

Here, dear, from George Will in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/22/books/review/Will.t.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&ref=review&pagewanted=all

Not since the medieval church baptized, as it were, Aristotle as some sort of early — very early — church father has there been an intellectual hijacking as audacious as the attempt to present America’s principal founders as devout Christians. Such an attempt is now in high gear among people who argue that the founders were kindred spirits with today’s evangelicals, and that they founded a “Christian nation.”

From the cited George Will article...

"It is a wonderfully high-spirited and informative polemic that, as polemics often do, occasionally goes too far."

"Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton — subscribed, in different ways, to the watery and undemanding Enlightenment faith called deism. ...Eighteenth-century deists believed there was a God..."

"Franklin, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton — subscribed, in different ways, to the watery and undemanding Enlightenment faith called deism. ...Eighteenth-century deists believed there was a God..."

SO they belived in the possiblity of a god. Problem is winston, people today want you to belive that they belived in their god.
You know the one that demands they stick their noses in my bedroom, the one that demands public humiliation of those who dont follow the herd, the one that demands you kill the occasional gay person and use your belife in a 'loving' god to be an absolute peice of shit to anyone who could be considered an outsider.

SO they believed in the possiblilty of a God. Which makes them NOT atheists.

Amy seems to make the case (if I understand correctly) that belief and public aknowledgment in a higher being is somehow un-American. I disagree with this and I believe history supports my position.

Neither Amy's nor Lujlp's poor opinion of Christians changes that fact that the founders WERE "religious nutters" (ie people who believed in some type of religion)

If ever you can give me a reason to have a 'good opinion' of people who are intellectually lazy put no thought in the self-contradicting crap they claim to belive in, I would be more than willing to hear it.

I don't give 2 cents what your opinion of Christians is.

Amy made the case the founders were atheists. I disputed that. Your personal opinion of Christians is irrelevent.

Amy seems to make the case (if I understand correctly) that belief and public aknowledgment in a higher being is somehow un-American.

No, unfortunately, it's very American. There are millions and millions of people in this country, who believe, without evidence, that there's a big man in the sky who gives a shit about them. Silly, silly, premodern beliefs they cling to, not because they are rational and actually looked for evidence, but because a guy in a funny religious suit told them the guy exists -- and when they continue to believe in this silliness, it keeps that guy in business. The business of religion -- hide the pedophile priests so the Catholic church can keep its coffers full. Now, the parishioners are being asked to pay -- again, so the Catholic church won't have to sell any of it vast landholdings.

Don't you all understand, you're being conned? It's PT Barnum with lofty language and promises that you'll be "saved." Right. Know anybody who's been to heaven or hell? Seen any actual evidence there's a god? Nobody else has either.

I am not arguing one way or the other on the truthyness of religion. I am arguing against the idea that the founding fathers were a group of atheist.

My argument is historical not theological.

The Founding Fathers were neither Christians nor atheists; they were deists (the following is from Jim Walker's site about Thomas Jefferson):

"In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus."

Can we give it a rest now?

re: Amy's comment above ("Do you really think the Muslims who murder "infidels" are working with a high level of logic and a respect for facts?") in response to mine debunking Obama's purported status as an ex-Muslim:

No, I don't think they're working with logic (as we know it) or respect for facts--I'm sure their perspective is that since Obama's father was a Muslim, he should be/was Muslim too, so he's an apostate who should be punished by death. But my response wasn't for them, it was for readers of the two lines in this blog entry that implied that Obama had been a Muslim. While not the ultimate point of the blog entry, the two statements in passing might have given people a false impression about Obama. E.g.: "Speaking of which, if Obama actually did leave Islam, or is perceived to have left Islam," and "As far as I know Obama has never explained when he left Islam and became a Christian."

Presumably readers of this blog aren't as fanatical so I thought they'd be interested in a debunking.
-Q