Can just one of these fucking amnesty-granting morons answer me this one question?

If our economy is in such shitty shape that Americans are losing their jobs all over the place, why the fuck are you giving jobs to people who don't even belong in this country?

There are only two possible answers. (1) you prefer exploiting a group of undereducated individuals for your own political benefit. (2) There is no recession and no employment problem in the United States and we just don't have enough workers to do all the work.

At issue was an amendment giving temporary legal status to those who can prove they've been working on U.S. farms in the past two years, pay a fine, and continue to work at least 100 days a year over the next five years.

Wait just a damn minute - if they're here illegally, they're getting paid under the table, which means there isn't any proof they've been working on any damn farms! This is bullshit of the highest order.

You many think I'm paranoid but I am telling you people this is all part of a grand design to create a north american superstate with a feudal economy.

They are working on a return to lots of uneducated, unreasoning serfs willing to work for next to nothing to stupid to realize that they could overthrow those in power if they really wanted to

They are working on a return to lots of uneducated, unreasoning serfs willing to work for next to nothing to stupid to realize that they could overthrow those in power if they really wanted to

Who's "they" lujlp? And what makes you think that the rest of us (who aren't serfs) would stand for such a thing? Give the educated people in this country some credit, would you please? And what makes you think Canada would agree?

I just have one question: What part of "illegal" is unclear hear? They broke the law. Throw them out. Period.

Fllynne intelligent americans are becomming rarer, just look at the popularity or "reality" tv.

Yesterday I got involved in what devolved into a srceaming match (on his part)about WWE wrestling and if it was 'real' or not

School these days is no longer about learning and knowledge but about test preperation and regergitating information without context or signifigance.

Ever since NCLB my little brother spend nearly a 1/3 of the year taking test prep classes and practice tests.

He is pulling a b- average because his classes are nothing but mindless chanting, excuse me 'repeat teaching exercises'

I thought him basic algerbra when he was six for christ sakes over one summer vacation and the teacher he has now cant keep himor any other child in the class engaged because they are constanly be told to
- shut up,
- dont ask me questions look in your book or ask another student
- stop bothering the other students

It really is mind boggling, and should the students not pass the tests, or not endlessly continue to improve under NCLB guidlines the school looses money which means they have to cut sports, art, music programs. If they lose enough money they have to fire teachers, which mean even further crowding in classroom and students fall further behind.

You cant tell me this isnt intentional

lujlp - it was just as worse before NCLB.

NCLB was passed like so many other pie-in-the-sky programs: This time, it will be different.

I agree with you - this level of mediocrity doesn't happen by accident. But it's something that's been going on since the creation of the department of education at the federal level.

Bullwinkle needs a new hat.

"If our economy is in such shitty shape that Americans are losing their jobs all over the place, why the fuck are you giving jobs to people who don't even belong in this country?" The economy is perilous but hardly in the shitter. I figured you of all people would be good with legalizing them and making them pay into the system. Thus we don't have to start making babies and their children will be paying into the system. Let them stay just make them pay their freaking taxes and I'm all good with it. Oh and learn the damn language we did and it sucked then great now.

As far as the "they are taking our jobs" crap. No there are plenty of jobs, in fact shit loads of them. Landscapers are hiring all the time and summer brings plenty of un skilled labor jobs. The jobs they take are the jobs no one wants to do, for salaries no one wants to work for.

"And what makes you think that the rest of us (who aren't serfs) would stand for such a thing?" Hey if I can get a immigrant maid that works twice as hard as anyone from my generation for less money I would. Having more labor will reign in the damn unions. 32$ per hour for route assembly line labor is bullshit.

"What part of "illegal" is unclear hear?" Unless you don't smoke pot, drank only after the age of 21 (or in some instances 18), get you car inspected on time every time, don't drive over the posted speed limit (even 5 miles), etc. using the illegal argument is being hypocritical. There are obvious limitations to this part of my argument but crossing the border illegally is on the same level as speeding, unless you are armed or a mule.

Bullwinkle needs a new hat.

But what I really want to know is, whatever happened to Peabody and Sherman? o_O

"But it's something that's been going on since the creation of the department of education at the federal level." Yup but there is no huge conspiracy involved, not any more at least. The public school system was created to teach kids, now it's government sponsored day care. Many parents just don't care, they don't have to deal with the kid which they think is great. You can't take a kid with indifferent parents and stick him in any school, public or private and have good results. I did hard time in both Catholic school and high end public school (wealthy community). We had shit heads in both and we had diligent students in both. With very few exceptions you knew which kids would fail cause their parents didn't care.

I think I might homeschool my kids when I have them. As part of a community, of course... not in a cave in the middle of nowhere. It just seems to me that government services are poor substitutes for what people should be doing themselves, anyways. Private schools are over-the-top expensive. Homeschooling provides greater flexibility, too, for travel purposes.

Gee, Vlad, guess I'm a freak of nature. Actually I concede that I am. Don't smoke pot or drink (before or after 18; I was over 21 when that age discrimination took place and it still pissed me off even though I was and didn't drink anyway) or drive. I did shoplift (a notebook and some gum) in junior high. And I did interfere with visitation rights to protect my daughter from her father. Oh, I jay walk sometimes. But why the damned assumption that everyone has broken the law? I doubt everyone who does drink has done so underaged. I doubt everyone who does drive has sped. Etc. Even if, for the sake or argument, they have, I disagree that immigrating illegally is the same level as speeding. Hardly. Mainly because I also disagree that they're doing jobs nobody else would. Bullshit. I know way too many native-born Americans out of work -- probably because I know a lot of unskilled workers. Three guesses why they can't find steady work? We'll have to also disagree on if that's the union's fault or the GD greedy assholes who don't want to pay minimum wage to legal Americans. And I don't know about you but I sure as hell wouldn't want to try and support myself on minimum wage, let alone feed a kid on it.

"We'll have to also disagree on if that's the union's fault or the GD greedy assholes who don't want to pay minimum wage to legal Americans." Um if the immigrants become legal then "GD greedy assholes" would have to pay them minimum wage. Consequently there will no longer be an advantage to hiring illegal immigrants. Plus they will be paying taxes. What is a GD?

Oh the union comment has nothing to do with immigrants. I resent the idea that some jack ass with a high school diploma is making as much as or more than an engineer with a BS or MS.

"too many native-born Americans out of work" Ah and now we get to the crux of the matter. It's not illegal immigrants but all of us foreign heathens?

"And I don't know about you but I sure as hell wouldn't want to try and support myself on minimum wage, let alone feed a kid on it." Yes agreed and that would be why I went to dive school after high school so that is all else failed I'd have that as a job to fall back on. It pays a hell of a lot more than minimum wage, but it's dangerous. Being a foreign heathen I had not idea that the system would actually look out for me. A concept that I still don't believe. When I'm at retirement age I have trouble wrapping my head around the concept that the feds will hand me money.

BTW all rancor aside. The oil companies need shit loads of labor on the rigs, it's hard and dangerous but pays well and you do shifts of 1 month on 1 month off. Few illegals as the feds are on them like shit on Velcro. If they are willing to take a bit of risk and/or relocate there are plenty of jobs.

vlad:

The economy is perilous but hardly in the shitter.

I figured you of all people would be good with legalizing them and making them pay into the system.

Whatever would make you think that? Above all else, I abhor line-jumpers. And that's essentially what this is. It's about telling a bunch of people who have played by the rules that they are all chumps, and they should have just snuck across the border and petitioned the government to grant them clemency. Try jumping a turnstile in NYC sometime.

Thus we don't have to start making babies and their children will be paying into the system. Let them stay just make them pay their freaking taxes and I'm all good with it. Oh and learn the damn language we did and it sucked then great now.

Why don't you ask Europe how well that's working out. You know what they call that? Colonization. Europe is being colonized by Islamists, and we are being colonized by Mexico. The only difference between now and 400 years ago, is the weapons. Now, they use multiculturalism and cultural self-hatred to get the dominant culture to enervate itself and submit to the colonizers.

And after all, who could blame them? These people were nice enough to move in and pick up the tab for Social Security, after all!

Honestly, I think I can solve the immigration and welfare problems at the same time, but no one will ever go for it. Kick the illegals out and make the welfare recipients start doing this work - one of the single mothers can day-care for 2 or 3 that have to work. We could still supplement their income, but no work, no food.

Just sayin'.

Vlad, since you are legal, I wasn't including that in taking away American jobs. You are American. I think you said you were anyway. If you are illegal, then screw you too. Excuse the hell out of me for saying native. God knows those of us born here should never ever fucking mention that God-Damned (GD) fact. My emphasis on those of us born here (which did not include one set of my grandparents but they too were legal Americans, damn it) was to make a point. Brian's right. They're line jumpers. And if you think they're not butting in front of better immigrants, not affecting those who come here legally, who you kidding?

As for those oil rigs, there is more than the pay to be considered. Yes, the danger is something one is totally legitimate in considering. Both the immediate danger and the danger to their health. I'm willing to bet your ass some guy from Mexico coming here to pick tomatoes is no more willing to run that risk than I am. I'm willing to bet my daughter (God forbid, I am not no way mentioning this to her) would be more willing than him to run the risk.

Beyond this, there's a bigger picture to these employers who can't find employees than you see on the newsstories of them whining no one will work for them. I worked for unemployment in Colorado and saw several cases from the ski resorts in Aspen that regularly do this, complaining that they can't get housekeeping and wait staff, etc. even though they were willing to pay $10 an hour(this was in the '80's). Uh, no fucking way you can live in Aspen on $10 an hour even though at that time, $10 an hour seemed a fortune to their counterparts in Denver (the roads are too impassable for the compute in winter even without the cost of gas and wear and tear on cheap vehicles in that kind of commute erasing the difference in pay). The workers would go four to an apartment and still not make ends meet. I'm willing to bet when you hear these cry baby stories that that's often the truth or there's some other off-putting situation (such as the danger) that is carefully kept out of the story.

I've got customers having problems with finding qualified help. There aren't enough people out there that are looking for work that can actually DO anything.

I mean, when you get people who simply will not retain simple instructions for more than an hour, what the hell is the point?

Of course, there aren't any machinists sneaking over the border from Mexico.

"I am telling you people this is all part of a grand design to create a north american superstate with a feudal economy."

As Napolean so aptly said: "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence."

I'm rather of the opinion that our political elite has no idea of (or perhaps no concern for) the long-term consequences of their decisions. They want to retain and enhance their power by catering to lobbyists and others with short-term interests. Simple greed is, unfortunately, an entirely adequate explanations.

"And if you think they're not butting in front of better immigrants, not affecting those who come here legally, who you kidding?" Oh that's cute. What do you mean by better? Do you have any idea of the type of shit that gets here under political asylum laws and then sits on the public dole. Democrats love these people, they vote to keep their gravy train coming. If you think that those that get here legally are any better you are mistaken. Legal immigration from Mexico is damn near impossible. Construction company I worked for (gone now) tried on several occasions to get their work force legalized. They paid well above minimum wage to everyone and it was in a shit area so the pay was great relative to cost of living. The work was hard and the hours were grueling. None of the legal Americans native or naturalized (me included) had snow balls chance in hell of keeping up with the illegals. They were fast, efficient, kept the work area clean, never complained (not in English or Russian any way) and never came late or drunk to work. INS still said no way.

"It's not even perilous. The economy is fine. The media need everyone to think it's shitty so they'll vote Democrat." To be honest I agree but I couldn't find any evidence of it that I could point to. There is some though limited evidence that some portion are shaky.

"Of course, there aren't any machinists sneaking over the border from Mexico." We had a top notch welder who we finally got legal status for, which was a real bitch.

"Excuse the hell out of me for saying native. God knows those of us born here should never ever fucking mention that God-Damned (GD) fact." Every time I had someone make the distinction between American and "native born" American was with the distinct implication that by being native born they are some how better than me. If you want to paint your self superior to me with only your country of origin as the basis don't be surprised when I'm not enthused. I can't stand this carp from ethnics either, being Greek makes you better than me (big fat greek wedding), oh really. Btw make sure you don't forget my fries.

The US has passed the point where unskilled labor is needed. Simple fact just like many other professions that have faded as technology improved. Why not get training as a technician, electrician, carpenter, plumber? The idea that the country should stay the same so you can remain in you comfort zone is ludicrous.

"I mean, when you get people who simply will not retain simple instructions for more than an hour, what the hell is the point?" Yup but I don't see how place of origin has anything to do with that. Mandating that they speak English I support.

Ann; Hey that actually works. I'm all for that idea. Start by using the welfare moochers to beef up the new INS.

I'm not saying don't deport them but it's not going to work. We are not going to be able to kick them out as it's not that freaking simple. Now if we legalize them then they have to pay taxes and their employers have to pay minimum wage. Plus unless we man and arm the border with people who have no qualms shooting border jumpers it's probably not going to help.

"As Napolean so aptly said: "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence." Thanks I've been trying to find out who to attribute the quote to.

My husband is here on a work visa. It's going to be a long time before he even gets his Greencard, and even longer before he gets citizenship. I am not his sponsor, he is being sponsored by his workplace.

The immigration process is a long one. Why should other people get a quicker deal because they decided to bypass it?

We as a country should decide for ourselves who we want joining us. It isn't a question of "better" or "worse", but a question of what is needed here.

Deportation is impractical. I say cut off government benefits of any kind... school, hospital, etc, and fine the hell out of any employers that get caught.

vlad if you give citizenship to the line jumpers but not those in line you'll be sending the wrong message. Also what is to stop employeers from firing the new citizens and hire new illegals?

bradly13 I am aware of Napoleans quote.

But its not just the immigration, its also the outsorcing, the instituionalised retardation of the youth, the borrow and spend mentality of the small government party which is bankrupting the dollar, and our government allowing forign companies to operate within our boarders with no regard for our laws

Donna: I'm not sure why you think that unskilled labor is some how entitled to good paying jobs. Plus when the pay for the lowest bracket goes up the only thing that changes is the inflation rate. The more you pay the tomato pickers the more tomatoes are going to cost. Thus the cost of living goes up and their pay increases are nullified.

"I mean, when you get people who simply will not retain simple instructions for more than an hour, what the hell is the point?" Yup but I don't see how place of origin has anything to do with that. Mandating that they speak English I support.

I was referring to the remaining unemployed in this country, not available immigrants (legal or not).

When you have so few quality people to hire, and all that remains are dregs, I find it unconvincing that we are in an employment crisis and Americans are hurting for want of a better job. If you know any unemployed quality Machinists (CNC please) in Central CT, please let me know.

The only sector of the economy that is hurting is housing, and it's their own damn fault. They took advantage of the fact that lenders were giving out bad loans to anyone who could fog a mirror, and they got bit on the ass.

You won't catch me crying over it.

Funny thing about AZ we did pass an employer sanctions law.

But as long as you dont pay an illegal more than $600 a week, for more than two consecutive days in a row, or dont hire them for to work for your business the law does not apply to you.

So the law that claimed it was designed to clear mexicans off the streets by denying them work will in acctuallity result in MORE mexicans standing around in home depot parking lots looking for day laborer work.

After all if you take away their 9-5 jobs they'll be trolling the streets looking for landscaping work

I'm not saying that legalization is the best option. No the ethics of it are horrid and yes it will send the wrong message. But making them legal and forcing them to pay taxes is the only solution I can see that would actually work. Deportation would not only be useless (unless the border is hardened) it's expensive to fly them back to Mexico just to have them travel back. Right now deportation is a catch and release program.

"Deportation is impractical. I say cut off government benefits of any kind... school, hospital, etc, and fine the hell out of any employers that get caught." But we are doing that. When they get into to the schools it's with forged documents or by lieing. There are some schools that know they are illegal and keep them then fine them, but the INS fining a public school is just pointless. When they get caught hiring illegals they do get fined some times quite harsh and rightfully so. As far as the hospitals, during a trauma or ER run how many of us would have our papers. Can you imagine what would happen if an American citizen was denied ER admissions cause the don't have their passport? The upper echelons will not be effected as they have private insurance and staff to carry their passport.

"I was referring to the remaining unemployed in this country, not available immigrants (legal or not)." Oops my bad, I'm in complete agreement.

"Legal immigration from Mexico is damn near impossible." Hmmm, gee, I wonder why that is? Or do you actually believe the scores of line-jumpers from that particular neck of the woods has nothing to do with it?

"Donna: I'm not sure why you think that unskilled labor is some how entitled to good paying jobs. Plus when the pay for the lowest bracket goes up the only thing that changes is the inflation rate. The more you pay the tomato pickers the more tomatoes are going to cost. Thus the cost of living goes up and their pay increases are nullified." Didn't say they were. I said they should be entitled to minimum wage and they should have to be US citizens to get that. What minimum wage should be set at is arguable. Citizens not being able to get minimum wage jobs because illegals are doing it for less is unacceptable. But I do agree deportation alone won't do the trick. The bastard employers hiring them should pay and pay so big that they'd prefer hiring minimum wage legals.

And by better, I meant merely lawabiders versus lawbreakers. I think it's preferrable to have immigrants who take the trouble to obey the laws even though the red tape's a hassle than it is to welcome those we know who start their life in the US by disrespecting it's laws. If they think our laws shouldn't be respected, they flat out should stay the fuck out!

"But its not just the immigration, its also the outsorcing, the instituionalised retardation of the youth, the borrow and spend mentality of the small government party which is bankrupting the dollar, and our government allowing forign companies to operate within our boarders with no regard for our laws." Well, said, lujlp!

Dianne. Not Diane.
The world needs more copy editors.

Sigh...thanks...fixed it.