>> So nice to see that the Mexicans are carrying on their cultural traditions -- in this case, the brutality of the Aztecs.

Well good morning Amy!

"So nice to see that the Mexicans are carrying on their cultural traditions -- in this case, the brutality of the Aztecs."

Oh puleeez! Like America has no problem with violence. Blaming this on some inherent barbarity of the Mexican people is beyond stupid.

This New York Times article paints a lot of this as more an organized crime issue that might be fought as the Mafia has been fought.

I think an aspect of this is for a stronger southern border.

Blaming this on some inherent barbarity of the Mexican people is beyond stupid.

It was a comment how people in modern times behave like primitives, and, I might add, are not stopped by any sort of law enforcement in that giant corrupt state of Mexico.

I think a lot of this is due to economic woes. A lot, but not all. The medium term solution is better education, trade policies that are fair to people (not just corporations) on both sides, and more transparent and representative government.

Winston, to what do you attribute it?

Maybe Amy's being a little hyperbolic. But in these years when we badly need more Mexican society to get its shit together, things are getting worse and worse down there. I think the culture has childish ideas about authority.

Canada has many problems, but this ain't one of them. Sure, they have lawlessness up there... But somehow it's cuter when a crack addict has the accent of a brother.

The war on drugs coupled with Americans insatiable demand for drugs for one.

I have no problems with criticisms of Mexican political culture. It has many problems that need to be addressed, no denying. Jerry also made some good points.

But wouldn't you agree the Aztecs have very little to do with this situation?

"Maybe Amy's being a little hyperbolic."
She sounded like the way Europeans talk about Americans.

Whoops... I meant the accent of a McKenzie brother.

Eh?

> She sounded like the way Europeans
> talk about Americans.

The difference is, America rebuilt Europe and provided the constabulary muscle to give it its first consecutive generations of peace in several centuries. I really wouldn't trust them to tell how violence does and does not work.

Winston, again, I'm just saying that these people are barbaric, not that they're actually neo-Aztecs.

If by "these people" being barbaric you mean the criminals in the article I would agree. If you mean Mexicans as a whole I would not.

"The difference is..."
The similarity is finding a problem in a country and using it to sneer down your nose at a whole population. Maybe that's not what Amy meant but it came across that way.

Winny, I didn't know you were the hypersensitive type, where every dawn brings a new commandment-protected class of people. This morning's new group is "a whole population". So you're saying that anyone who'd harsh "a whole population" is being mean and hurtful, right?

I've quoted this passage from James Lileks before:

"And now: for the last time: I am aware of the history of the United States. The myriad deficiencies that arise from it being composed of human beings, not Swiss robots. I am well versed in these things.

"I’m getting bored with having to proclaim I’m not Jumping Jimmy Jingo because I take pride in the good this country offers , and I don't immediately append a 30-minute codicil putting it the context of our atrocities of the Phillippine war. If this bothers anyone, I’m sorry.

"Translation: not sorry at all."

test

You can blame this on Mexican gov't corruption, on gun control that makes Mexicans vulnerable to all catagories of crime, particularly violent crime, and on us, for not rocking the boat, for allowing the flow of money into Mexico, and the flow of Mexican drugs and virtual slave labor into the US.

Mexicans vote for socialist, corrupt government, this is what they get.

Since Crid mentioned America's never-forgotten contribution to peace in Europe, a shout-out for the Aztec Eagles seems in order?

Against the odds, this crack Mexican airforce unit earned rather a shining place in the history of Allied warfare!

It's like looking at American violent crime (of which there is plenty) and saying "I see the Americans are continuing with their cultural traditions, in this case the brutal genocide of the native Americans"

Oh those Americans, nasty savages.

That would be a dumb thing to say.

"o nice to see that the Mexicans are carrying on their cultural traditions -- in this case, the brutality of the Aztecs."

Me gusta Winston. It's a pet peeve of mine when people get their cultures wrong.

Aztecs are remembered as much by Mexicans as American blacks remember their African tribesmen ancestors. I wouldnt compare black violence (primitiveness) to a group they have little connection to. Why not, instead say Mexicans are carrying out their Conquistador cultural traditions? Afterall the Spanish had more input into modern Mexico than the Aztecs...but that too would make little sense.

Props to Purp, good point. But Jody's comment brought to mind something a high school teacher (vaguely hispanic if I remember right, and maybe not) said about a Mexican air force that was being deployed into an international venture of some sort many years ago, only they slammed into a mountain and died, all 4 of them (7? 12?). I never heard anything about them again, and a casual Google offers nothing. Wikipedia says nothing about the Aztec Eagles, either. We shouldn't count on Mexico for air support.

But Jody's comment brought to mind something a high school teacher (vaguely hispanic if I remember right, and maybe not) said about a Mexican air force that was being deployed into an international venture of some sort many years ago, only they slammed into a mountain and died, all 4 of them (7? 12?).

Maybe your 'maybe hispanic' teacher was right, Crid? Who knows!

Nevertheless it's an oddly doleful way to remember the Aztec Eagles; usually they're regarded as a minor but plucky symbol of Mexico's military support for the USA!
(Yes, the "international venture of some sort" was indeed World War Two!)

Here's some music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKomeiyJkkE from Mexican cupcake singer/actress Ximena Sariñana (I adore her voice here, not sure about the glasses though!) to enjoy while you digest the following about the Aztec Eagles!

..."the Aztec Eagles carried out tactical air support and bombing missions in support of American troops operating in the South Pacific. Flying 60 missions, the Aztec Eagles dropped 1038 bombs and fired over a million rounds of live ammo. In all, the 201st squadron accumulated 1290 hours of combat missions during the last six months of the war. Five pilots lost their lives during the unit?s tour of duty. Three crashed during bad weather, one was shot down by the enemy, while the first was killed during gunnery training when he crashed into a tow-plane that was pulling the target over Padre Island.

Wikipedia says nothing about the Aztec Eagles, either.

I found it on wiki. Look for Escuadron 201.

See, I don't think those are the ones she was talking about

See, I don't think those are the ones she was talking about

I dunno, Crid. It's still possible it was a reference to the bad weather crash my cut 'n paste mentioned? Maybe your teacher just had a singularly grumpy take on all things related to the Mexican air force?

(My original point was certainly not that we should all "count" on Mexico for air support, anyway! Hope you enjoyed the singing sweetie-pie!)

Jody, I decided it was better just to trust your judgment about the music on the other end of that link rather than interrupt the flow of electronic ambient chillout playing here.

> a singularly grumpy take on
> all things related to the
> Mexican air force?

The point is that there aren't that many "things related to the Mexican air force" to be grumpy about. (I forget her name. She was a neat lady. Hyooge rack. Indeterminate race, and nobody had the balls to ask. She told some neat stories about some medical events in her life, too. When Stones tickets went on sale before I could get home after class to get money, she lent me five bucks and dropped me off at the box office.)

> a shout-out for the
> Aztec Eagles seems in
> order?

Or maybe not?

We distill all this down and the question is, why is Mexico so fucking wretched? Nobody knows precisely. Amy doesn't really believe it's because of brutal prehistory. Smarty doesn't really think gun control alone would fix the problem. Winston concedes that "political culture" may play a part...

But on the other hand, he wants to be extra fussy about making sure our anger at these events doesn't spill over to anyone else at all ever even a little bit. And you're apparently eager to applaud --in a style of a kindergarten-pageant attendee-- a footnote's worth of force delivered during the Big One.

Well, they were on the right side, performed proficiently, suffered losses, and were never heard from again. Mexico did not grow into a world power, projecting Western ideas of decency, capitalism, and progress across the globe.

And again, I'm all like, how come?

Winston, Amy never used the term "inherent barbarity." But would it be cool to say their culture is fucked up? Do you think it's not?

This is like our inner cities, where people capable of doing better are mercilessly mocked for acting 'white' when they open schoolbooks. You're so eager to protect everybody's feelings and celebrate their distinctive traditions that you can't admit there's a problem.

Listen, this is one of the few cases where I'm receptive to conspiracy theories: Maybe Mexico and latin America are impoverished because someone up here wants them to be. But that alone couldn't account for it: There's to much value down their left unexploited, both in terms of people and natural resources.

Their cultures fail them. We shouldn't be too prissy about saying so.

Winston's other point is solid: When we see what effect our taste for illicit narcotics is having on these other nations, whining about our (nationally) internal "hypocrisies" doesn't excuse the consequences of our indulgence.

"...a footnote's worth of force delivered during the Big One."

And intended as little more, Crid.
A mere, merry footnote it was - that happily incorporated "Atzecs" and "Mexicans" - our themes du jour - with a faint whiff of high school history class blackboard chalk!

You're so eager to protect everybody's feelings and celebrate their distinctive traditions that you can't admit there's a problem.

And neither can anyone else! Isn't this exactly what "political correctness" is all about? And doesn't this demonstrate exactly why "political correctness" isn't either one?

Just sayin'.

I have spent time in Mexico and have a great affection for the place and it's people.

Overwhelmingly Mexicans have always been very kind to me and I do feel a need to defend them when my paisanos slag them off. Especially when America's schizophrenic attitude toward drugs (govt hates them, citizens love them) contributes to the misery they too often face down there.

And no, I am neither hispanic nor an open borders advocate.

Vaya con paz

I get what Amy is saying about Aztecs. I remember about a year ago when the big illegal worker strike was to happen. And Mexican nationalism blossomed. Like any other culture they like to expound how great they where - hundreds of years ao they had an empire that was pretty darn big. And even that parts of US was part of the Mexican identity and some believed that it should go back to being part of Mexico. Heck some are proud of their heritage of being Aztex or Mayan.

For example I can expound upon any culture. My forebeaers where pround sea faring folk that where stong and hardy. And look at the flip side they where rapistsm thievesn and killers. AKA Vikings

To me that ny great X 20 granddad was a bad man is water 1000 kilometers and 1000 years under the bridge. It matters shit all to me. Yet to some people they accept a culture and want to take all the glory of a culture and none of the shame.

I think to me Amy is making the point that for all the pride some Mexican people have in the past culture and present country they do not want to admit their follies and sins. Mexicans need to face that there country sucks some parts of there culture is detrimental to happiness.

Until they accept some of those ideas they csnnot change. And I mean change a culture for the better. To build a country to greatness.

I hope this sounds understandable!

>> Ximena Sariñana

What a voice! Off to Amazon!

>> Ximena Sariñana

What a voice! Off to Amazon!

Eric,
I've done exactly the same!

I found Ximena on a lovely post (at Metafilter)about the fifty year history of the song "Volare".

One of the best known cover versions was by ratpacker Dean Martin, which gave me the heebie jeebies, as the slick Dean Martin technique invariably does! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtKrXbGEAd4

Then I clicked over to Mexican Ximena's version, and was totally enchanted by her sweet, growly voice and slightly kooky style!