Feminism Ruins Everything
An e-mail I got, which I answered rather ramblingly (it was late) reminded me of the subtitle of the Hitchens book, "Religion Poisons Everything."
The man writes:
Dear Amy,
I am an avid reader of your column and a big fan. I greatly enjoyed your response to Angry Girlfriend who sought advice regarding her 49-year-old boyfriend who lives with his parents (Pacific Sun, June 13-19, 2008). But I am still mulling over your musing on whether "when he picks you up for dates, instead of opening the car door, he helps you onto the handlebars." What are the rules and expectations here? Can a man who opens car doors for women avoid being labeled and dismissed as a "nice guy" (that is, a wimp). What are the rules in date and in non-date business or social situations? Does it depend on the relative ages, social standings or slots in the workplace pecking order of the man and woman involved? Do the rules change if the man is driving the car or is an entering passenger on the same side of the vehicle as a woman passenger? Having held other doors open for many a woman who then glides by with a contemptuous smirk or without acknowledging my presence, I'd like to hear your take on the social ritual of men opening doors for women, which until the current era (the last 20 years or so) I enjoyed participating in. I still mostly open doors for women but not with the same youthful enthusiasm I once did.
Yours truly,
Kind of Out of It
I respond:
There are women who think you're degrading them by opening the door. There are women like me who think it's a sign of good manners. I open the door for anyone getting into my car, man or woman, and hold the door for whomever is behind me, even if it's a man the size of a gorilla. I do it because it's polite and genteel, and I do my best to be not only funny and a little vulgar, but polite and genteel. I behave in a way that fits my values, and if anybody has a problem with it they can go soak their head and any other body parts of their choice. Sure, women will smirk sometimes - take it as your cue to have nothing else to do with them. If you have standards, have them, and have them without reservation, and shrug off the smirkers. To some women, you'll be an anachronism, like Tom Wolfe in a white suit. Doesn't stop him from wearing the white suit. What makes a man a wimp isn't old-fashioned standards, but newfangled lack of confidence. How old are you? Please copy this entire e-mail into your reply. Thanks, -Amy
He writes back:
Thanks for your reply. (I'm old: 65, but if the light is dim enough and I square my shoulders, I can pass for 58.)
I respond:
Just do as you would do, and don't worry about what people would think. If they respond with anything more than "thank you" they're boors.
There seems to be a small but psychologically important difference between traditional American and European practice.
The tradition in the USA is for the man to open the door and let the woman go first. The equivalent in Europe is for the man to go first, holding the door for the woman to follow - so that them man is the first to enter the unknown area.
bradley13 at June 21, 2008 12:33 AM
Bradley said: "The equivalent in Europe is for the man to go first, holding the door for the woman to follow"
That hasn't been my experience in France. In fact, one often finds oneself in the slightly comical situation where two people jockey for politeness in holding the door for the other, "After you", "No, after YOU", "No, please, after you". I suppose that this could be interpreted in not wanting to enter the lion's den first, but truly, it is always considered good manners to hold the door open for someone before entering, especially if the "enterer" is a woman.
The one point that I become unsure about is whether I am being correct by constantly letting my boyfriend or male (close) acquaintances hold open the door for me and not (often) reciprocating. But it feels wrong and condescending for me to hold open the door for, say, my much older male boss. These little touches of chivalry that men do for women give men the active, power role in social interactions, which seems to flatter them in a small but important way.
However, I do agree with Bradley about other aspects of protecting women, in that it is correct for the man to follow a woman up a staircase, but lead her down one, and to walk on the traffic side of the sidewalk, etc.
Just as I think that these little touches make me feel feminine, it also makes the man feel masculine, and brings a nice, small frisson in dealings between members of the opposite sex, (although PC would definitely like to stamp this kind of thing out.)
liz at June 21, 2008 1:00 AM
At the QuikTrip gas station, I see folks from all sorts of different backgrounds and jobs opening the door for other people.
Mostly men though.
I admit I feel a bit weird when the door is held open for me, but that's my vanity talking. I'm not that old damnit! You're not holding the door open for me because I'm old for chrissakes are you? Oh, it's because I need to lose 20 pounds? You're saying I'm fat!? Damn you to hell!
Anyway, it may have more to do with the fact we're all holding our 96 oz SuperDuperGulps, the size that doesn't yet come with wheels.
jerry at June 21, 2008 1:09 AM
Being over here in Japan, holding the door open for someone will immediately bring some slightly shocked looks (if you have ever ridden on the trains or subways you know people will completely keep to themselves). However, showing such politeness will immediately bring a lot of bows and many ‘thank-yous’ (arigato, domo arigato, or sometimes arigato gozaimasu). I think a very urban group (like those in Tokyo) is not use to it—especially from foreigners. Although the Japanese are somewhat racist, especially to the gaijin (white people), they respond very favorably to those who try to speak their language (which with me is very poorly), are polite and show respect. But it serves as a great example of how to respond, regardless of age or gender: when someone shows you respect you respond in kind. Usually, Americans are very poor at this (especially American women).
Doc Jensen at June 21, 2008 5:38 AM
My big problem with people holding doors open is that it seems most people have no clue HOW to hold a door open. . . .
If you "hold the door open" by blocking half of the walk-through space, I'm NOT grateful - I'm annoyed that you're in my space.
I'm also not grateful if I'm trying to do multiple things while walking up to a door (swap out sunglasses for glasses, pull out my ID card, etc.) and in no hurry to get to the doors, but someone (male or female) is 50 or 100 feet ahead holding a door open and glaring impatiently at me for not hurrying to take advantage of their "courtesy". Sorry, but that's not courtesy, that's rushing me.
TheOtherOne at June 21, 2008 6:59 AM
I'm a gay guy and am dating a guy who, when we go somewhere in his car (sorry Amy, it's actually not a car - it's a big honkin SUV) always opens the passenger door for me first. I look at this as politeness and nothing more. When we go into a public building together, whichever one of us gets to the door first opens it for the other.
I suppose in certain relationships chivalry may equal power, but in 2008 it seems that would not normally be the case.
Darry at June 21, 2008 7:05 AM
I don't know what this contributes to the conversation (Amy, I applaud your reponse) but another custom is walking up and down stairs when paired with a woman. A gentleman always walks in front of a woman downstairs, and behind her upstairs so that he can break her fall. This is perfectly logical particularly when one considers the differences in clothing such as dresses vs. slacks or jeans, heeled shoes vs. flat soles, large purse vs. wallet in the hip pocket, etc. and finally, the great differences in strength and body mass- if a man fell into a woman, it could be catastrophic for both of them (and all the dominoes behind them). If a woman fell into a man, he could more likely catch her and both/all continue on their way without injury or incident.
One day in law school I was about to enter the stairs and motioned for my acquaintance to precede me. She looked at me curiously and asked a little indignantly (but not without curiosity) why she should go up first (ever alert for signs of invidious, omnipresent patriarchy was she). I explained that women precede men up stairs and follow them down, and why this was the custom. She looked at me and said, snottily and in all seriousness - "Thats just so men can look at our asses."
(I assure you, if that was a consideration in the evolution of this custom, her ass was not the model they used).
Its a confusing issue, this chivalry, and one I wtrestle with myself from time to time. But I think you are right, Amy. Do what feels right to you, and leave others to their own conclusions.
WolfmanMac at June 21, 2008 7:06 AM
Wolfman, these days it's pretty common for a guy to be around women who outweigh him by quite a bit. So the body mass theory just doesn't work.
Darry at June 21, 2008 7:26 AM
One of my mottos: Never date a man who weighs less than you or spends more time in the bathroom.
Amy Alkon at June 21, 2008 7:55 AM
Ages ago, I had an ideology-addled young lass yell at me for holding a door for her.
So, when I got to the next door, I let it hit her in the face.
brian at June 21, 2008 8:21 AM
I know a lot about doors. I work as a super in a condo tower.
Here's my take on this; opening doors, just like any polite action, is all about opportunity. If someone is right behind you, holding the door is a easy gesture. The person is behind and will reach the door shortly. If someone is in front and away from the door, it looks more needy than anything else.
My rule of thumb for the whole door thing is simple: If it takes more time and energy for you to open/hold a door than it would take for them to do so, don't do it. A good action doesn't need to be taxing for yourself. If you spend more energy to do the action compared to what the person who receive it, you will look as if you ask for a favor and this is annoying.
A point well-made by TheOtherOne is; if you do it, do it right. If someone needs to literally rub itself on you to get through the door, you are doing something wrong. Acting polite (I.E. holding a door) shouldn't be done by acting boorish (I.E. invading someone's space). If you can't pull it, don't do it.
As far as the whole "Feminism" credo goes, I can assure you that a woman carrying three boxes of files is always happy if someone holds the door. Many people out there use the feminism mindset as an excuse to be a$$holes. This is why I don't abide by those rules. I hold the door because I believe it's the right thing to do. The recipient of the action is free to think whatever he/she wants. Acting civilized is not a popularity contest and is noticed by the right persons at the end.
Toubrouk at June 21, 2008 8:24 AM
Feminism seems to have relaxed the system for opening doors, at least at the university where I taught. I was surprised but gratified the first time a woman opened a door for me. Over time the same practice that Amy describes evolved. No matter the gender, whoever was in the position to open it most conveniently opened it for the other. The outer doors are all double, so the first person through the outer one held the door for the other--instant reciprocity. If one or the other was encumbered, as with both a briefcase and a tote bag, the one with free hands opened both doors.
The only time I got a little miffed by a feminist in this regard was once after stepping onto an elevator. I was in the opposite corner from the control buttons, holding a stack of papers in one hand and a lunch bag in the other. The building's most rabid feminist was next to the controls, and I asked if she would mind pushing 4 for me. (Commonly, whoever happened to be in that corner would ask which floors other people were going to, even if their hands were free.) She did, but asked snarkily if I always expected other people (she did not actually say "women") to do things for me. I hid my irritation with a smile and just said thanks. Maybe she actually meant the comment in the light, airy way I pretended to take it, but I doubt it, because she was always so earnest in her feminist writings and talks.
Axman at June 21, 2008 8:43 AM
I enjoy holding door open for people. The women I have dated have all liked it (pleasantly surprised being the most common response the first time) and I've never encountered any woman who acted like it was demeaning to her to do so. Maybe people are getting over this?
justin case at June 21, 2008 8:49 AM
Doc Jensen,
As a career Navyman (13yrs 9mos on 5 ships: 5 major deployments, uncountable 'hops') I can quite assure you I speak from personal expe5rience when I say Americans are only superceded by the French for being rude and arrogant on foreign soil.
It's little wonder Americans are mostly held in contempt by 'society in general' outside the US, and within our borders men in general, fathers in particular (and for Amys sake I'll leave it at that) are held in contempt by 'society in general'.
As an Air Force brat (Dad was a 'Raven') I roughly 1/3 of my childhood overseas with German, Turkish and Japanese kids so I can quite assure you the kids 'over there' aren't raised that way.
Gunner Retired
Gunner Retired at June 21, 2008 10:27 AM
Why do you say the French are "rude and arrogant on foreign soil"? I have many French and European friends in the U.S., and they are all extremely polite -- in fact, more mindful than many U.S. citizens. French children are raised much more strictly than kids in the U.S. in terms of manners, behavior, and what's expected of them.
Amy Alkon at June 21, 2008 10:36 AM
19 years ago I opened the door for a female volleyballer at the local YMCA where I was living and she told me to F-Off. That really threw me for a loop, as I had been opening doors for women all of my life.
It actually threw me for a loop for several years, as I reevaluated whether my behaviour was generally sexist. (It wasn't but I met too many women like her and was confused)
A few years later I told a friend about this incident. He happened to be a psychologist. He responded with what perhaps is the perfect quip for such a situation: "Lady, just because you're a feminist doesn't prevent you from being an asshole!" And then walk away.
Robert W. at June 21, 2008 11:06 AM
It's actually, quite often, a guarantee you'll be one.
Men also tend to let me off the elevator first. My response: "Thank you."
Amy Alkon at June 21, 2008 11:36 AM
> we're all holding our 96 oz
> SuperDuperGulps, the size
> that doesn't yet come with
> wheels.
Word up.
> Although the Japanese are
> somewhat racist
Certainly this is true, but it can be hard to judge.
Ten years ago I was walking towards a staircase at the north end of the Met. I'd been staring at Stradivarii in the (musical instruments galleries (center/right of top image) for twenty minutes, and my immortal soul was moist and receptive. On the way down to get some lunch I passed about thirty Japanese tourists walking essentially in single file in the opposite direction. They were groomed and moved in respectful gentleness towards their surroundings... And not one of them offered eye contact, let alone a smile.
And I'm all, like, what the fuck. Except for a few minutes in the Tokyo airport, I'd never been to Japan.
[More next message: avoiding spam filter]
Crid at June 21, 2008 1:39 PM
A few months later I was creeping down a somewhat muddy hillside after a dip in this lake. While negotiating the slender and slippery path, I again passed a group of cheerful Japanese tourists headed toward the main attraction. Even though we had to watch each other's movements closely during the dicey passage to avoid knocking each other down, there was again zero eye contact. Palau is to Japan as the tourist Caribbean is to fat Americans, so I thought maybe it was a territorial thing, but their conduct seemed off-putting anyway.
Later I read that Japanese culture considers being alone to be a special condition. By not acknowledging you, passersby are showing respect. This makes those YouTube videos of hand-packed commuter trains seem all the more freaky: These people are all about observing the boundaries of personal space.
To some extent it's an Asian thing. Remember Latasha Harlins? One spark for the LA riots was the Korean dislike of touching hands during retail exchanges and the black American distrust of people who are too snotty about physical contact.
Weird customs and abject racism can be very, very difficult to distinguish.
Crid at June 21, 2008 1:40 PM
"The equivalent in Europe is for the man to go first, holding the door for the woman to follow - so that the man is the first to enter the unknown area."
Well, dang!
If you ride an airboat in the Florida swamps, you'll notice that the good 'ol boys have a dog with them. If the boat conks out and there's nobody nearby to tow them to shore (it can be a long wait), then Fido gets thrown overboard to swim to shore.
If he makes it, then you can, too. Y'all have seen an alligator, haven'cha?
Sometimes, you don't wanna be first. Send the dog if there's going to be a problem.
Radwaste at June 21, 2008 3:00 PM
polite customs: here in colonial Mexico the men always walk on the street side of the sidewalk...its quite comic till you get used to it, doing figure 8´s wondering why this guy keeps jumping around you
pw at June 21, 2008 3:27 PM
I'll take the occasional fuck you and continue to open doors for women, the elderly and people who are carrying a bunch of crap or are otherwise in need of a hand. Grace and poise is the key, even when the response to your good manners is a boorish fuck off or some such thing. My general response to that is the same I give people who are gracious; "you're quite welcome." Just because someone else is being an ass doesn't mean that I have to.
OTOH, I am not afraid of getting my asshole in gear when it's called for either. Sometimes the appropriate response is to be an asshole right back at folks.
In regards to the Japanese, I think that the vast majority of behaviors that come across as racism are really just cultural differences. Ultimately, with most Japanese persons, even if they don't like you for whatever reason, they are still going to be polite to the extent that you really can't tell the difference. Much of the problem (as Crid notes) is due to the extreme value they plac3e on their personal space.
DuWayne at June 21, 2008 3:29 PM
> comic till you get used
> to it, doing figure 8´s
> wondering why
So there I was... Freshly divorced and walkin' down Ventura Boulevard with this smokin' law student, a wise-ass angel with a fast smile and a figure like crackling thunder. We're on our way to meet friends at a sushi restaurant in Woodland Hills. But as we move along the street, she keeps doing the figure 8's. What's up?
She smirks and says "It's so you can take the bullet if there's a drive-by."
"Y'know," I say, "We're in Woodland Hills in the 1990's. The custom of having the man walk on the street edge of the sidewalk was mostly about protecting women's gowns from splashing mud as the horse carriages trotted by. But the streets are paved nowadays, and there's a drought anyway." I smirked back at her.
She replied that she'd been shot in a driveby, a completely innocent bystander, several miles east on Ventura Boulevard some years earlier.
Always go with the courtesy, and let the chips fall where they will.
(PS- This isn't even in my top ten most humiliating moments.)
Crid at June 21, 2008 5:53 PM
Amy,
Just my experience. For courtesy and kindness I would have to sit here and say the very nicest people overall I've ever met are Norwegians (and I'd move there if it weren't for the Winters), followed in very short order by the Thai.
As a fleet type 'Tin Can' sailor the tourist hot spots were common destinations. Pago Pago, Mauritius, Seychelles, Cancun, Mazatlan, Christchurch, Curacao, Tumon Bay, Sattahip, Pattaya, etc, etc, etc. I've been to Hawaii more times than many people have been to the loo. Suffice it to say I've met a lot of folks from pretty much anywhere on this big blue marble a body can call "home sweet home".
I've met some courteous French yes, but such encounters were far form the norm. As a rule, in my personal experience, the French tourists are even obnoxious and arrogant than the American tourists I ran into overseas.
Gunner Retired
Gunner Retired at June 21, 2008 7:54 PM
To those above:
Don't get me wrong, the Japanese are as polite and accommodating as any people I have every met. A smile and a friendly hello will be eagerly reciprocated. The children are responsible, very polite and actually do what their parents tell them. You will see 3 and 4 year-olds walking to school unaccompanied (partly by culture, partly by respectful and safe neighborhoods but also because you don't see them getting into the mischief their American counterparts do). If you are lost in the subway, it will only be a matter of minutes before someone will come up to you and offer to help. It is the type of friendliness you only see in small American towns. There is no greater example of the difference then when sitting on the train and a group of young American men will enter, talking as loudly as possible about their latest sexual conquest--because, hey, those Japanese can't understand what we are saying, right?
But make no mistake, we are truly the foreigners, the interlopers, here. The above example certainly does not help our case. While most Japanese have a good understanding of English (it is taught in all their schools), and many speak it very well, when you are shopping you will not to helped. Maybe racist is too strong of a term; however, it's undercurrent can be felt, sometimes very strongly. I love living in Japan and I think the people are great, but I don't mistake friendliness and respect for affection.
Doc Jensen at June 21, 2008 8:53 PM
Amy said: "One of my mottos: Never date a man who weighs less than you or spends more time in the bathroom."
Pithy. And true.
liz at June 22, 2008 12:55 AM
Regarding rude and arrogant French, ugly Americans, and other stereotypes: as with any generalizations there is a core of truth, some misperception and there are a lot of exceptions.
The French do often come across as arrogant - particularly as regards the superiority of their culture and language. Go to Germany and speak decent German, and they will be complimented. Go to France and speak decent French, and they point out your errors. This may be well-meant, but it comes across as critical.
The French also stand very close when speaking one-on-one. Intruding into someone's comfort zone, as the French unintentionally do, can come across as an attempt to dominate and intimidate. You can sometimes witness hilarious - and entirely unconscious - pursuits: the Frenchman steps into speaking range, the other person steps back, the Frenchman steps forward and the dance continues across the width of a crowded room.
bradley13 at June 22, 2008 11:34 PM
Perhaps I failed to sufficiently elaborate on a minor (albeit crucial) detail: I'm not speaking from casual observations here.
I'm speaking from frequent and repeated interactions with French and American tourists in cities spanning the globe over a period of nearly 16 years.
In France (Marsailles, Nice, Caan, Paris, Versailles, etc), Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkiye, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, in the Mediterrainian, in Thailand, Africa, South America, the Caribbean, Canada, Scandanavia, Australia (the Aussies I spoke with disliked them intensely) and New Zealand, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...
And I concur on the comment about Deutschlande, there was a time I spoke passin decent German (from a tour there as a USAF brat). My grammar and syntax sucked, but I could communicate and they were quite friendly and appreciative of the effort to speak their language (although the VAST majority of Europe speaks English quite well).
The Japanese are amaxingly polite people ... overall... once you get out the metro cities. And yes unless you initiate discussion with a JN (Japanese National) they will go to considerable effort to avoid direct eye contact and maintain a an air of aloofness we would quickly construe as rudeness.
One more point to consider about the Japanese: their culture is thousands of years old, rich in heritage and tradition which they will very happily speak of at leangth if you invite them to and are non-combative when they show their pride in their culture.
And they will ask about Clint Eastwood, John Wayne and other western heroes (looooooooooooong story that one) expecting you to be well versed in their films.
Culturally speaking America is an infant in the grand scheme of things at a scant several hundred years old.
Gunner Retired
Gunner Retired at June 23, 2008 7:06 AM
I'll hold the door open for anybody. I'll push the elevators buttons for anybody too. It's just common courtesy. Why don't people get that it's so much easier to be nice than it is to be nasty?
Flynne at June 23, 2008 7:44 AM
Oh, I've been known to let them know about it when they hold the door. It's archaic, at best. Though not always. And, frankly, it's mostly irritating (and generally when I've let them have the feminist lecture) when they do it with a such a superior smirk that you can almost here the little lady that they're thinking). It's just history that makes it so. Like calling a black man boy. However, that said, it's not all that cut and dry always.
Toubrook's rule of thumb seems quite apt. My personal rule of thumb is hold it for a woman the same as you would for a man -- visibly handicapped, burdened down with packages/bags, or if letting go will literally smack them in the face because they're that close behind you (but that in itself is rude to breathe down a stranger's neck that way) or if they're just a short distance (i.e., respecting your personal space and not being rude enough to breathe down a stranger's neck). I'd also hold in those instances, gender doesn't matter. Who gets to the door first or is less burdened matters.
I concur with The Other One's position on distance but for quite a different reason. I don't look handicapped (and it doesn't frankly reach the point of being called that) but I have osteo arthritis in both knees and heel spurs and plantar fascia in both feet. Walking more than a short distance causes me pain. Trying to hurry causes me pain. What's much ruder in my book than the feminist thing is some asshole several yards ahead of me who insists on holding the door perceiving my waving them on as a feminist thing (and they're damned if they're gonna respect that, right) when it's a pain thing. I used to let them rush me but after suffering the consequences, I'm damned if I will. If anyone holds the door open and acts the moron, I have taken to stopping still and saying I can stand here all day (a bald-faced lie) if you can.
I hate the tradition both because it is a nonverbal way of telling me I'm the weaker sex (that's arguable but certainly not to the degree where I can't open a damned door for myself, maybe helpless female is a better way to put it) and because it's painful though I do realize that most people just flat out don't realize that what they're considering polite is just plain causing me pain and making crabby.
Donna at June 23, 2008 9:21 AM
Donna, with no due respect, you're an idiot if you think someone holding the door is rushing you.
And if you ever give me "the feminist lecture", over my holding a door, you'll get an object lesson in perspective.
brian at June 23, 2008 10:01 AM
Brian,
If you think the person standing impatiently at the door, making a clear show of being impatient about waiting for me to get there, ISN'T rushing me, then you're the idiot.
Maybe you personally don't do this. But people in my office (especially the women) do this ALL the time.
There are 3 sets of entrances. I can be far enough away that they can't even be certain which entrance I'm going to. Yet they'll open the door, walk partway into the door, be standing *in the doorframe* while holding the door open - glaring at me for not hurrying up to get there in exchange for their generously holding the door and waiting for me.
The worst occasion when this happened to me, my back was out and I didn't feel like hurrying just because she'd chosen to stand there glaring at me. I get there, and then have to wait while she grudgingly gets out of the doorway. We wind up in the same elevator, at which point she looks over at me and says "it would be POLITE to say THANK YOU". I responded that while it might not be incredibly gracious of me, I really *wasn't* grateful for someone holding a door open but showing clear signs of expecting me to rush, when for me it's easier to open the door than to rush. Her response? A snotty "You're right, that's NOT gracious." NO indication that I was wrong about her expecting me to hurry.
BTW, it's nothing to do with feminism. I was raised that the first person to the door holds it (properly) for the rest. I'm *very* appreciative when my hands are full and someone (male or female) holds a door for me, and I do my best to reciprocate by holding a door for those who appear to need it. And when someone is gentlemanly and opens the door even when it isn't really needed, I think it's very chivalrous and it makes my day a little happier - provided that the way they do it (and the attitude they do it with) isn't a complete turnoff.
TheOtherOne at June 23, 2008 10:19 AM
"I'll hold the door open for anybody. I'll push the elevators buttons for anybody too. It's just common courtesy. Why don't people get that it's so much easier to be nice than it is to be nasty?"-Flynne
This is almost exactly what I was going to say. Also, why waste energy on being offended by someone doing something nice?
Amy K. at June 23, 2008 11:18 AM
I respectfully disagree with the notion that Americans and French set the low bar for boorish behavior abroad.
You always NOTICE the obnoxious ones, especially your own countrymen, when you see them making a horrible spectacle of themselves. The quiet, polite ones probably don't even register with you.
I worked in a tourist trap in Santa Barbara all through high school and saw busloads of people from all over the world coming through. BY FAR the most obnoxious were the Germans. And yet, there were many, many more pleasant, easy-going polite Germans than bad ones. The nice ones just don't make as much of an impression.
Same deal when I lived in England. It's excruciatingly embarrassing to be around a bunch of loud-mouthed obnxious Americans in public places; but there are tons of nice, quiet, cultured Americans there too - they just don't stand out the same way.
BerthaMinerva at June 23, 2008 12:11 PM
liz: "These little touches of chivalry that men do for women give men the active, power role in social interactions, which seems to flatter them in a small but important way."
I think you're over-analysing this a bit. Men are taught that it's good manners to hold a door open for a woman. By holding the door open for a man, you are in effect forcing a man to be rude and bad-mannered - even if the man knows it's not his fault, it still doesn't feel good and is embarrassing. Women also wouldn't like it if their hand was forced into breaking what they'd been taught was good manners, no matter the context.
And holding doors open for women isn't some expression of a "power role" of men in society, in fact the opposite is true, we enjoy holding doors open precisely because it shows RESPECT for women and their status - it is a compliment paid to a woman through an expression of SUBMISSION. By holding a door open for a man, especially an older one, you also thus send the message that his respect is meaningless to you. This is indeed deflating but not at all in the way that you think - you are in fact just being rude, even if that's not what you intend, because you don't understand this tradition and see it through some distorted feminist lens.
David J at June 23, 2008 4:22 PM
Also, why waste energy on being offended by someone doing something nice?
Because sometimes the "nice" thing is being done with such a nasty attitude, or is being done in such a way, that it isn't nice at all.
When I'm having a hard time walking (because of my back or my leg, or just a blister or whatever), a person who opens the door, glares at me to hurry, and is standing in my way is a problem. I have to either try to maneuver around the person (and I just really don't like getting that physically close to people I don't know, which is why I don't go to places like NYC), or I have to stop walking and wait for the person to move out of my way.
Then I get an attitude ("why aren't you thanking me, you ungrateful b*tch?") from the person doing me the "favor". . . .
TheOtherOne at June 24, 2008 6:33 AM
Once again, I have to concur with TheOtherOne. Does no one care that if this so-called politeness is causing actual physical pain in another human being? If not, why should I care if my lecture offends you?
David J, nicely said but what you respect woman as the roles you perceive them to play? What precisely are you respecting? That you're bigger and stronger? Frankly, some guys I could take, some I couldn't. One my size, weight and physical condition, I could. Michael Jordan, I couldn't. Yes, I do size men up that way, like it or not. Comes from a childhood of watching my mother not be beat up by my father because when he tried, she fought back and it was a draw. Then I had a man a bit larger than myself hit me also a draw quickly followed by a divorce. So, no, I don't think I'm gonna end up any time soon not sizing men up on that basis. Yes, it's wrong. Yes, it's sad. But (shrug) oh well. Frankly, I think putting my safety first so I see no need to work on it any more than I see a need to try out walking through the city park at 2 am. Deal. On the other hand, I'm that rare woman who actually prefers short men to tall.
Brian, I think we've met. In a doorway. ;) As my grandson would say "you funny". (Now, go ahead with our playful comeback in his game, I'm not funny, you funny.) You're mostly alright, dude, but I am amused that when we disagree we do so vehemently. We both funny. And passionate. And that's cool. No one expects you to throw your hands up and say you're right and I'd be very surprised if you expect me to.
The first one to the door bit seems to be talking mostly about people who are in a group or entering the door pretty close to the same time. I thought I already concurred that that would be the way to do it then.
It's the assholes who make a big sweeping gesture like they're making some magnamious bit to the gentler sex that she should then be eternally grateful for (as if she would not have got through that door without him). They're the ones who get the snarled "do I look like I can't open a door" bit and it's purely because of their attitude. Without that snarkiness, I don't usually bother because I do realize they had it ingrained in their little heads that it was the polite thing to do.
I once (this was the start of my stopping still and refusing to move) had a guy open a door from something like 50 yards away (in a tunnel going between office buildings, we'd both just entered in opposite directions) and stand there like a grinning idiot when I waved him on so, groaning inwardly that no, for once, I wasn't going to let them rush me, I yelled "Don't wait. I've got arthritis and I'm slow." (Something you will agree is not the most advisable in that situation. This was a highly trafficked tunnel and he looked like someone I could take if I had to but I still resent his making me voice vulnerability to a stranger in a place where a woman had been attacked nearby recently, albeit late at night when there's no way in hell I'd go there.) Doesn't the moron grin and call so magnanimiously, "It's okay. I don't mind waiting." Never occurred to him that I minded his waiting even if he was the classiest gentlemen in the world, that it would be embarrassing and humilating to me to have this stranger watch me limp all that way to the door. So I stopped, gave him an icy glare and said so frostily "I can open a door" that he let go and hustled on muttering about them damned women's libbers. (Still think it ain't like calling a black man a boy? I don't.) Now I do so they will fucking move and I can go on my way with as little physical pain as possible.
Brian, was that you? ;) (Just funning you, big guy.)
So is it polite? No. Is there any harm to guys like Gregg doing it for their ladies fair like Amy who like that? No. Because they know their ladies and know they do. Or when a group is going in or out together? No. But to presume that every woman is going to not be insulted or impressed even when this has been talked about so much and refusing to unhand that door even when she waves and says cheerily, "It's all right; go on," is definitely not.
I think this whole thread has proved my point about the golden rule. Obviously, with extreme things like murder, it applies but not at all with the little things. Or even much of the medium things and some of the big things. People are inviduals and what might be right for you may not be right for some.
All things considered, however, polite or not, when the woman expresses a desire not to have you hold the door open and you insist on doing so, it becomes rude.
Donna at June 24, 2008 10:56 AM
"...I'm sure he'd kick an ass or two, that's what Brian Boitano'd do!" (sung in best "South Park" voice) o_O
Flynne at June 24, 2008 11:54 AM
"David J, nicely said but what you respect woman as the roles you perceive them to play"
Maybe my upbringing is just different to most, or maybe it's because I'm not physically strong myself, or maybe it's because I grew up in a household with strong-minded independent women - I don't know - but I honestly don't perceive women to "play any roles". Maybe it's even my Jewish background that affords me to not look down on women. I ONLY see opening doors as showing respect for women and as good manners. Nothing more. It has never occurred to me in my entire life to even think of it in terms of "women are too weak to open doors for themselves", that is patently absurd on the face of it. But maybe other men are different. When I think of a woman having doors opened for her, the mental image for me is almost of a queen - someone of ultimate high status - who walks around with servants doing things like that for her. It's a way of paying a compliment to a woman. So from my perspective you are misread things totally, but granted we've grown up in different societies and I imagine things might really be different for you.
David J at June 25, 2008 2:15 AM
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