Ah, yes--religion. Sheeple following the ravings of long-dead untreated schizophrenics. Too bad Lithium wasn't around 6,000 years ago, eh?

Give that God is a proven asshole, it's just the kind of thing he'd do.

Kill those six and leave the seventh with a world-class case of survivor's guilt and see what the little guy does with his now fucked-up brain.

God doesn't love you any more than you love your legos.

I remember a conversation I had with a "Jee-Zus" lover about this. His answer was that God has the moral right to be amoral because he created us. This tell us a lot about how they think...

Yeah, as in, not much thinking going on there. I went to a funeral on Saturday for a friend of (one of) my brother's - I didn't stay long, because I hate the things. But we had known this guy a long time, so I went to say good-bye to him. I couldn't stay for all the Xtian mumbo-jumbo, but his mom was all, oh, so nice to see you, thank you for coming, blah blah blah. I told my mom, and have also stated in my will, I don't want people coming to look at my dead shell in a freakin' box. I've provided for a box of joints to be set on a table, with a picture. Play some of my favorite music, come in, have a toke, say good-bye, and get out. Done.

Flynne -- Yeah, there's much to be said for a good old-fashioned Irish wake. Yours sounds like an updated California version.

Amy -- Your post raises the issue of what theologians call theodicy, the never-ending quest to reconcile the concept of an all-wise, all-powerful, benevolent God with the obvious fact that bad things do happen to good people.

After much ink, paper, and countless hours spent pondering the question, from all I can tell the best answer remains, "I dunno".

Which is why I think of it as "theidiocy" instead of theodicy.

Non-theologians avoid the tangle by rationalizing it, usually as a test of faith.

Note: It's always a test of my faith, but what about the poor person who actually suffered the agonizing death? That's rationalized by "They're in a better place".

It's a harmless delusion so long as they don't force their rationalizations on rational people.

"This tell us a lot about how they think..." They don't and hence the problem. Once they are forced to think they panic and come up with this kind of crap. They live in fearful ignorance scared mostly of the fact that someone will shine a light on their darkness and their world will vanish. Fear makes them angry.

Flynne -- Yeah, there's much to be said for a good old-fashioned Irish wake. Yours sounds like an updated California version.

Yeah, kinda, but I don't think I'm going to have them prop me up in a chair and shotgun me with bong hits. That'd be a little too over the top. Unless they dress me in tie-dye, maybe. o_O

I've had the same thought about theodicy. It actually just begs to be pronounced "theidiocy."

It wasn't pure luck. Give the boy some credit for good old fashion human survival instinct. Anybody who has been caught in a situation involving a "mad rush to the exits" knows there is very little prayer in play and a whole lot of "Get the F*** out of my way so I can save my ass."

It's a natural, even essential, instinct to want to save one's life when faced with a crisis situation which threatens to extinguish that life.

It's interesting to note how when people save themselves, they're almost embarrassed to take credit. Yet when others take the far more impressive step of saving others, I hear very little of how prayer got them through to success.

After a good coffee, I took the time to revisit the whole entry and I ask myself if religion got anything to do with it in the first place.

Right now, we are living in the culture of "Everyone is Special". The current Mass-Media seems to be bond on the idea that each and everyone out there is a beautiful butterfly worthy of praise. This narcissistic mindset might be more to blame than the mental disease known as theism. They just followed the trend by advocating a "Personal Savior" as if Jee-Zus had spare time to only take care of you.

I do have a problem with a lot of the jesus people because they really do over simplify to a great degree and disregard the complex questions that their religion poses. They usually end everything with Because God said so.

The problem for most Christians is that as an omnipotent Creator, God is actually responsible for creating evil. (other religions wisely avoid this by having more than one God or having God exist without being solely responsible for all of creation) Most Christians disregard this by saying it is human error or Satan, but because the Christian God is all-powerful and the ONLY creator, God is actually responsible for evil (God created the fallen angel Lucifer) and human error.

It's a bit of a pickle to put it mildly, but those are the kinds of questions that are supposed to get you to think. Except thinking is no longer allowed in religion, so I guess it's a moot point.

Agreed, flighty.

Christians like to think that God is all-wise, all-powerful, and benevolent.

You can hold onto any two of those and come up with a rational explanation for evil in the world, but you can't have all three.

If you take all-wise and all-powerful, then God is not benevolent and is the creator of both good and evil.

If you take all-wise and benevolent, then evil comes from someone else -- Satan? -- and God is powerless to prevent him from doing his dastardly deeds.

If you take all-powerful and benevolent, then God could have prevented evil but apparently had a brain fart and didn't realize Satan was actually going to do it.

Note that in the last two cases you've also given up strict monotheism because then you have two gods, God and Satan. That's why Old Testament Judaism (and I think Islam) chose the first option.

Or you can just say, "S**t happens. Deal with it!"

When I told Gregg about the bible group that's praying for my soul (I guess), he suggested I sell my soul on eBay. Any suggestions on pricing and what I'd give the winning bidder (the tangible obejct)? (Perhaps a framed certificate?)

Amy, about selling your soul, I heard this story some time back and may have some of the details wrong. But here goes.

On a Friday afternoon, a pair of college students set up a stand at the bridge on the U of Minnesota campus where students going out drinking would pass. They advertised they were buying souls for $5.00. All the student had to do was sign a deed giving over ownership of the soul; I don't remember whether the new owner was one of the students or the devil himself. They got a few takers from students who figured they could pay for a couple of drinks with the proceeds.

On Monday, after everybody had sobered up, the two students set up their stand again, offering to sell souls back and return or tear up the deed for $25.00. The guy who told me this story said they made quite a lot of money.

I'm sure you wouldn't get all nervous and try to buy your soul back. I just told the story to show another way besides tithing that imaginary terrors can wrest money from people.

Hey Axman, have you ever seen 'O Brother, Where Art Thou?' There's a scene where the escaped convicts pick up a colored boy, Tommy Johnson, at a crossroads, where (so he tells them) he had to meet the devil at midnight to sell his soul. One of the asks what he got for it, and he says, well, I learned how to play this here guitar real good. And another one says, well, son, why did you sell your soul, and he says, well, I wasn't usin' it! o_O

Everyone's looking at this the wrong way.

Since being in the presence of the creator in heaven is the ultimate goal, the dead kids are the chosen ones and god loves them very much.

The surviving child must have so disgusted the almighty that he was left behind.

I'm surprised his church hasn't hung a sign around his neck and stoned him yet.

I am a firm believer in the "imaginary friend in the sky". I think God, or whatever name you want to give it, started the universe, complete with natural laws, and evolved us, complete with free-thinking free-will minds (that most of us underutilize). And most likely evolved others somewhere else too. Do some prayers get answered, or is it dumb luck? I don't know. I don't think you can assign human traits to the creator. I don't think we can really comprehend it. I try to live a good life, causing the least harm to others possible and helping when I can. I think that's about all one can really do. I have as much issue with the Inquisition, and current Fundamentalists, as I do with islam. They have all really missed the mark there.

But wait - there's still more money to be made!! This from News of the Weird:

You've Been Left Behind LLC has begun offering an e-mail service to Christians who are preparing for the Rapture (in which all "true" Christians ascend to heaven to meet the Lord). Since the Rapture may commence suddenly, those chosen may have to depart without saying goodbye to their less worthy friends and besides will leave their property behind during the ensuing seven years before Armageddon. For $40 a year, Christians can maintain an e-mail list of up to 62 people who would be notified and can store encrypted electronic documents, such as PIN numbers and powers of attorney. "There won't be any bodies," the Web site warns, pointing out an advantage of its service, "so probate court (would) take (all) seven years (just) to clear your assets to your next of kin." [Wired.com, 6-3-08]

If you're dumb enough to do this, you deserve to get ripped off. Sheesh.

For the most part, I think organized religion is nonsense. Too many rules, too much crap, too many ways to tie people to a leash. But I can't completely condemn a practice that brings people genuine comfort during some really awful times.

During a wedding weekend, on a long hike through the Santa Monica mountains, my cousin's wife, who is very pretty and charismatic, tried to get me to BELIEVE by gently targetting my weaknesses. In less than 2 hours, she had me feeling faithful. She said nothing more about it and I quickly recovered.

I think logic and rationality are more than many people can tolerate.

A recent letter to the editor in my local paper expressed the LW's belief in creationism over evolution "because it just makes more sense". She explained that "Evolution has so many exceptions, so much questionable science, so many theories that aren't proven. Creationism believes that a divine being just made it all appear. It seems more likely to me".

Are people getting stupider, or is it just that we're hearing from the stupid ones more often? Why are these bizarre fundies becoming so vocal? What can we do about it?

Are people getting stupider, or is it just that we're hearing from the stupid ones more often? Why are these bizarre fundies becoming so vocal? What can we do about it?

Natural selection favors stupidity.

"When I told Gregg about the bible group that's praying for my soul (I guess), he suggested I sell my soul on eBay. Any suggestions on pricing and what I'd give the winning bidder (the tangible obejct)? (Perhaps a framed certificate?)"

I thought Bank of America did that already. (Boo.)

Umm, Internet lore suggests there's a big market for somewhat-less-than-clean frillies. Got any to spare? (Crid told me to ask.)

People buy weird things. E-Bay is supposed to have had an apple core discarded by Tiger at the US Open go to five figures. Go figure. Fantasies are so powerful.

"Natural selection favors stupidity."

And brian gets more than I do.

Heh. Easy pick!

Owning anothers soul is no big deal. I have close to fifty myself.

Word to the wise you really should read the terms and conditions before you check the 'I agree' box.

My buddies and I wrote a game together back in highschool, it never really went anywhere, but being the paranoid son of a bitch that I am I made everybody involved in the creation and anyone we had play it for testing e-sign a non disclosure contract.

I was just messing around when I put in the clause stating that by playing the game they would surrender their souls to me, but no one bothered to read it so I didnt bother to tell them.

I wonder if any of them would be willing to buy them back?

"Natural selection favors stupidity."

And brian gets more than I do.

Heh. Easy pick!

It's been 39 years for you too, eh?

Flynne, I used to have the same disdain for funerals you do, but the more I've attended, the more I've come to believe they serve useful purposes. For our large extended family, perhaps the most important one is to let us close the gap the death has left in our family circle. We tell the person's favorite stories and sing the person's favorite songs. Thinking of how we were all connected to the deceased reminds us of how we are all still connected to one another.

Of course, a memorial service such as you have planned would work just as well as the kind of funeral our family does, maybe better. And it's definitely better than an Episcopal service; the one I went to was read right out of the Book of Common Prayer, with no mention whatever of my friend's wit, or musical talent, or qualities as a husband and father.

And thanks for the reminder of "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" I didn't remember as much detail from that scene as you did.

From one of Robert Heinlein's books (I forget which): "Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."

I always thought the Abraham and Isaac story was a bit dubious. So he takes his kid for a walk and then tries to sacrifice him to god, only to have his life spared at the last minute.

What happened next? The bible is a little sparse on what followed a father nearly sacrificing his son. Did he try to play it down "I wasn't really going to kill you son. It was just a game. A bit of fun, you know? Please don't mention any of this to your mother."

The Shogun stories (by James Clavell?) describe a period on Japan's feudal history. They're a great read! One horrifying thing is that a feudal overlord demands that a vassal shows his loyalty by killing his own children.

Which brings me back to the horrible comparison to parasitism. Biological parasites regularly de-sex their hosts so that their hosts don't spend any energy reproducing, and thus have more resources to devote to the parasite and its reproduction. What other organism actively prevents its hosts from reproducing? Yep, the Catholic Church. Apart from its lay hosts of course - but then almost every religion actively promotes lay host reproduction, followed by indoctrination of the young, as a way to replicate. This may be a serious misrepresentation of religion, but somehow I can't get it out of my mind.

Actually, Woody Allen had a pretty good take on the Abraham and Isaac story, which, paraphrased, goes along the lines of "I jokingly tell you to go and sacrifice your son and thou dost go out to do it...no sense of humor, I can't believe it." One might be able to find old copies of Woody Allen's prose works (Without Feathers, Getting Even, etc.) on Amazon or some other site.

Regarding Godless Zone's account of the New Zealand tragedy: I see their point. The notion that the survivor was somehow more beloved of God than the children who were killed is a sick one. In Chapter 13 of Luke, Jesus talkes about some people who were killed by Pilate and some others who were killed in a construction accident, and points out that while they weren't any more sinful than anyone else, misfortune struck them just the same. When my wife was stricken with leukemia a few years back, our pastor was quick to point out that we have no idea why such a thing had to happen to her. My brother, who was a Lutheran minister at the time, said pretty much the same thing.

Kirk above points out theologians have been struggling for centuries with the question of how tragedy and outright evil could exist in the presence of a loving God. However, I don't go along with his conclusion that the existence of evil rules out an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent God. I think Momof3 above had one of the more interesting comments: "I don't think you can assign human traits to the creator." That's no doubt true, but it's not easy to understand or discuss God at all without doint that at least a little bit.

So after three rambling paragraphs I've gotten nowhere, so I'll sign off now. Wife's fine now, by the way.

Well, however we got here, there's no denying that we are all endowed with that crazy little thing called "free will". It's how we use it that determines whether it's for good or for evil purposes, no? So ultimately, it's on us. Accidents are accidents, but deliberate acts come directly from ourselves.

Not if you buy into Scott Adams' "moist robots" hypothesis.

In his view, we're all simply moist robots that do what our programs tell us to do.

You're read "Mistakes were made (but not by me)" so you already answered your own question as to why people are like this. The same reason why you continue to believe things despite the fact that other may give you proof to the contrary. It's part of being human. I don't find it angering or even surprising. I still don't understand why you do though (Amy). Except for the fact that you make a living writing about what pisses you off...so I guess you have to keep being pissed off.

What, you don't think some of us could rebel and reprogram ourselves?? >_O

I think it's giving God the worst of it to suggest that He's responsible for how people choose to interpret Him, the world, the Bible or anything else.

Nonsensical rationalizations and illogical conclusions about God and life no more disprove God than nonsensical rationalizations and illogical conclusions about climate change disprove the merits of conservation.

that crazy little thing called "free will"

I have still to hear a definition of this that makes any sense.

That Left Behind email list thing that Flynne posted is hilarious. I also had a few questions. If I get bored at work tomorrow, I may email the company. I wonder why you can only alert 62 people? How does it know to send out the emails? Presumably, all the people at the company will be taken in the rapture. Who do you pick to put on your list? Obviously the ones you think will be "left behind." If all 62 people that you notify are sucked into the sky with you (or whatever), then are you just screwed out of your money since no one is left to handle the business you left? Can you get your money back if the rapture comes and you are left behind?

And you're not going to hear a brief one - at least, any more brief than this:

What you see around you is the end result of a continuous process. It was possible to get to any point in your observation by a very large, but not infinite, number of means. Your path to this point has been the product of cause and effect in all cases, because all matter and energy in the universe is acted upon by at least four natural forces: gravity, magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. This means that the universe is NOT random.

You are not only capable of making two choices, the difference between which is iota and also with no consequences, you are capable of choices with radically different outcomes. Most arguments surround these "large" decisions; it is not clear whether evaluation of what you've done passes the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" challenge because of problems identifying the dependencies of a choice today on choices made earlier in time.

On the "low end" of the concept of choice, human error tends to obscure what is going on.
You cannot actually do something exactly the same way twice. Think about that, and you'll realize that you've been redefining "success" whenever an outcome is good enough: if the steak gets to your face, it doesn't matter that the cube you cut this time is a different size.

"Free will" is not confined to any sort of religious view. It's the product of a lifeform struggling for advantage in a world so big we'd suicide if we knew how small we are in it; a world so complex some of us think things we can't understand are either "random" or the act of a god.

Most of the argument appears to surround the idea that if we could only change the past, we could change our miserable situation today, generally for the better. OK, so you get a second chance, invest in Microsoft, get rich, get AIDS from the hottie you just had to have, get busted for driving drunk and get beat to death in jail for being "the queer rich AIDS guy going to infect us all". No - you can end up worse off, or exactly the same place you are now, having made different choices. Would things be different? Probably.

Scott Adams is partly wrong because he has not recognized what "choice" really is. Other than that, he's alright. His blog is so full of people eager to speak it's tough to read responses when the "free will" question comes up.

Something very useful I learned about mythological stories like the Abraham-Isaac?Ishmael story is that they generally don't make much sense by the time they get written down, but they did make sense whne they were devised. In the case of this one, it arose in a time when this kind of human sacrifice was standard, and all the story meant was that that kind of thing was not going to be part of the new religion. All the moralizing interpretive overlay just muddied the water, but on the plus side it let people pimp the OT as more than it started out to be - you know, like it is some great catalog of moral dilemmas and principles.

Moralizing interpretive overlay such as trying to decide if God is good or evil - a la the bogus conundrum "Christians like to think that God is all-wise, all-powerful, and benevolent" - is something that Jesus specifically comes out against - "Judge not etc" and "Why do you call me good/" (in answer to someone who addressed him as "good teacher"). Moral judgement is a dead-end. This was a pretty radical departure from Judaism, and it didn't really take hold in Chrisitianity either. Paul wraps himself around the axle over this again and again, but then, he never got really clear of the yeshiva.

Your path to this point has been the product of cause and effect in all cases, because all matter and energy in the universe is acted upon by at least four natural forces: gravity, magnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. This means that the universe is NOT random.

Maybe I'm being too clever by half, but I cannot seem to wrap my intellect around this one.

If the universe is not random (I'm assuming you mean stochastic) then it's either deterministic or it's intelligent.

I you are arguing that it's deterministic, then it should be predictable, given sufficient variables. We might not ever be able to measure them with sufficient precision (Lorenz, et. al.) but we ought to be able to come up with a predictive model.

However, a complex enough deterministic system is indistinguishable from randomness.

If your father was so much as an electron's width to the right the night you were conceived, you would have been completely different.

So I don't care how ordered the universe is in terms of effect. If there is no intelligent creator (or the universe itself is not intelligent), then the first cause is random, making the entirety of existence random.

God said "Abraham, kill me your son."

Abe said "Man, you must be puttin' me on!"

God said "No."

Abe said "What?"

God said "You can do what you want, Abe, but
the next time you see ME comin' you better run."

Abe said "Where you want this killin' done?"

God said "Out on Highway 61." >_O

Thanks, Flynne. I just got that album, and now I gotta go dig it outta the car.

pthhhhhbbt

Brian -

Deterministic is not the same as predictable. A computer is deterministic, but you cannot in general predict its behaviour. You can simulate it, perhaps, on a faster machine - but I don't think that is what is meant by prediction. Basically, you just have to wait and see what happens, when it happens.

Perhaps a hypothetical god could predict the result of any deterministic process, but it's been proved theoretically impossible (by Alan Turing) for us.

As for free will: computers make choices too, based on their internal state which is often a representation of something in the outside world - which sounds awfully like what people do. I just don't see how you can either (a) define free will in a logically consistent way or (b) demonstrate its existence. I think we have some limited ability to make choices - but calling it "free will" seems to me to be an unreasonable extension. A bit like claiming that faith can move mountains. Faith (or confidence, a better word) in your abilities might help, but faith that you can fly won't get you off the ground.

Brian, Dylan's or Johnny Winter's version? (I much prefer the latter.) o_O

What happens to all the clothes of the people who are taken up in the Rapture. Does Left Behind take care of that too?

I like the parasite comparison too. The author of the Golden Compass series gets right into that I think in the second or third book, how religions find the thing that makes you feel the most alive (i.e. sex) and then forbids you to do it.

Dylan. Now I gotta go look up the Johnny Winters version. I'm finally getting around to acquiring all the music I should have listened to years ago.

it's going to take a while.

"If the universe is not random (I'm assuming you mean stochastic) then it's either deterministic or it's intelligent."

No, because "unable to predict an outcome" does NOT mean "random".

For a gross example - and even waiving the determinism of defining what we are talking about - "two plus two" does NOT equal "orange".

Think of randomness in this way: in probability, there is always an "event universe". For the flip of a coin, that universe is "heads, tails, edge". The answer to any probability question involving the flip of a coin is always one of those three answers.

Therefore, the flip of a coin is NOT "random" - merely unpredictable.

When the event universe has more variables, lile Lotto, there are tens of millions of solutions, not just three - yet the answer will always be within that set of numbers.
Extend this to the combinations AND permutations possible IRL, and you end up with a very large, but not infinite number which is likewise unpredictable - but more so.

Even though we observe part of it at the time we call "now", we have insufficient acumen to evaluate our current status accurately (yes, "accurately" is, for this example, with complete precision (no uncertainty), which is not within the capability of our instruments).

You can argue successfully that we are determining the odds and behavior of the coin and of Lotto, but we are just emulating nature (exactly what we do when we build something - we can't escape natural laws). Until you can state what put the four forces in play, I don't think you can call it either of the things you suggested.

Radwaste, your point seems to hinge on the notion that random equates to a universe of infinite possibilities. In fact, this is not the case. According to M-W, random can mean "relating to, having, or being elements or events with definite probability of occurrence b: being or relating to a set or to an element of a set each of whose elements has equal probability of occurrence ; also : characterized by procedures designed to obtain such sets or elements . So your example of the coin toss, with one of three possible outcomes would indeed, nevertheless, be random.

Thought you might like this Radwaste, a good visual example of a non random yet still unpredictable fractal progression

http://www.electricsheep.org/index.cgi?&menu=samples

"Radwaste, your point seems to hinge on the notion that random equates to a universe of infinite possibilities."

I don't know where you get that idea. At least twice above, I point out that the number is NOT infinite. It CANNOT be, because natural laws intervene to make matter and energy behave in predictable ways via the interaction of a least four fundamental forces.

"Unpredictable" is not "random".

Another fine example is that of radioactive decay. We cannot predict which unstable atom in a mass will seek what we call a "lower energy state", but we can chart such activity well-enough to show that gigantic numbers of those atoms behave predictably.

In the insurance industry, it is not possible to determine which client will be injured or die of a given set of adverse circumstances, but it is possible to determine what the approximate number will be and establish policies to deal with that.

In both of these examples, the "event universe" is described by physical laws (though the insurance people have to consider changes in cause-effect relationships).

The real issue is what you, and others, think "random" means. I suggest that people just don't think about it very much, or very well. In most issues, "unpredictable" things are feared, and not the subject of much careful study by the layman, who has no reward for making the distinction between, say, billion:1 and trillion:1 odds.

"What, you don't think some of us could rebel and reprogram ourselves??" LOL, Flynne! I think I have. Um, I've also led a hard life.

Jim, you lay that argument on a 7 year old (me 43 years ago) who has just heard/read the story and is asking her holy roller mother, "Mommy, you wouldn't sacrifice me if God asked you too, would you?" and somehow is not reassured by the answer repeated every time she fearfully repeats the question, "God would never ask me to." If you're going to argue a 7 year old shouldn't be subject to that story, I'll whole-hardily agree with you. The buybull should be rated R at least.

Add to the list of questions for the rapture site, why would anyone raptured even care about their money? And don't give me it's the loved ones they're caring about. Money or not, being left behind is supposed to be a bad thing. I find the site's existence amusing as hell too but beyond that it's also very telling -- about what exactly it is -- God or money -- that's truly worshipped.

Blinded Scoffers and Fools.... Without knowledge wisdom and understanding your opinions only emphasize your lack there of... Your opinions do not define truth or reality... You will not scoff forever,,, that is guaranteed...