Ooooo, can we? And let's scrap the current electoral system while we're at it, and go to one-day nation-wide primaries. And lose the electoral college. And delegates. And super-delegates. If we want democracy (and we sure like to impose it on the rest of the world. Rightly so, I think) then we should, in fact, BE a democracy!

I'm for one person/one vote. No more electoral college.

I just can't believe that Hillary wouldn't have used this if it were true.

Be careful what you wish for, Amy. Democracy, as Winston Churchill once said, democracy is bad but all the other systems are wose. But, given how hungry most Americans are for war and welfare, democracy will eventually be our undoing.

Even if it's not a real concern, I admire how the story can be cleared up before a single newspaper can be published about it

You want Democracy? Fine. But don't call it "Democracy"... call it.. "Tyranny of the Idiots."

Just imagine all of those Bank of America employees who would vote.

If it's democracy they want, sister, they've earned it.

momof3 - The United States is not nor has it ever been a democracy. It is a republic.

Amy - getting rid of the electoral college will make presidential elections meaningless, as they will be decided by the large population centers exclusively, meaning the socialist candidate will always win.

What ought to be done is to repeal the amendment that turned the presidential election into a public process. And while I'm dreaming, can we get rid of general election of senators as well?

The way the system was set up by the founders was genius. It has been perverted into a massive vote-buying scam instead. The purpose of the Senate was to represent the states, not the people. Now they don't know who they represent.

And this whole birth certificate thing is hooey. I have a hard time believing that the party brass (from either party) would even allow a Constitutionally ineligible person even throw their hat into the ring.

I'm with you on that, Crid. Here's to the losers in their (oops, our) pajamas!

Amy,

This page at FindLaw explains why it matters how old Obama's mother was when he was born.

http://immigration.findlaw.com/immigration/immigration-citizenship-naturalization/immigration-citizenship-naturalization-did-you-know/immigration-citizenship-naturalization-did-you-know(1).html

Basically, the law was never as simple as what we were taught in Civics class in junior high school. When Obama was born the law stated that if a child was not born in the United States and the father was not an American citizen, then the mother had to meet two conditions for a child be be a citizen:

1. The mother must have resided in the United States for at least 10 years.
2. At least 5 of those years must have been after the age of 16.

His mother was only 18 (and, according to Michelle, single) when Barack was born, so she could not possibly have lived for at least 5 years in the US after the age of 16.

P.S. - The rationale for the law seems to have been to address colonies of expatriates living in Mexico or other foreign countries but maintaining U.S. citizenship without any of them ever living in our country. This could include groups whose decision to leave the country was triggered by aspects of their lifestyle being illegal, such as polygamy.

P.P.S. - I find it curious that nobody is asking Michelle why she stated that Barack's mother was "very young and very single when she had him." The comment was made at the beginning of her comments at a roundtable discussion of fatherhood in Kansas City on July 10,2008.

One part of my previous message was confusing.

I should have said:

When Obama was born the law stated that if a child was not born in the United States and the father was not an American citizen but the mother was,...

Obama was born in Hawaii, which was a state at the time of his birth. He was born on American soil. He is, by Constitutional definition, an American citizen.

End of story.

If your claim is true, then every child born to a single female under the age of 21 is not a citizen. Since we know that is not the case, then you are either misinterpreting the law, or the law doesn't apply in this case.

I suspect that what you are claiming is having to do with expats, And even then, that doesn't apply to either candidate. McCain's father was stationed at Panama when he was born, and both parents were citizens. In addition, that area was U.S. Territory for all intents and purposes.

I really wish that people would stop looking for a "gotcha" to quickly disqualify either candidate. It's getting annoying.

A twenty years ago, for some forgotten administrative procedure, I took my "birth certificate" to an office of some kind... It was the same document I'd always had. The woman laughed out loud at my cute little footsy prints on it and explained that although there was a handsomely-engraved image of an angelic cherub on the top, some boilerplate legalese in the middle, and someone's Ivy League signature at the bottom, it wasn't really an official document... It was just a keepsake from the hospital, much like a consolation prize from a game show. (Much of my life is thereby explained.) Sure enough, after several mailings, $42 and five weeks, I had a much more official looking document from the State of Indiana.

brian:

Obama was born in Hawaii, which was a state at the time of his birth. He was born on American soil. He is, by Constitutional definition, an American citizen.

End of story.

If your claim is true, then every child born to a single female under the age of 21 is not a citizen. Since we know that is not the case, then you are either misinterpreting the law, or the law doesn't apply in this case.

I suspect that what you are claiming is having to do with expats, And even then, that doesn't apply to either candidate. McCain's father was stationed at Panama when he was born, and both parents were citizens. In addition, that area was U.S. Territory for all intents and purposes.

I really wish that people would stop looking for a "gotcha" to quickly disqualify either candidate. It's getting annoying.

I think you misread my first paragraph. This section of the law is only relevant for children NOT born in the United States.

Barack's eligibility to be President has always rested to two claims, either of which is sufficient to make him qualified. The first is that he is a citizen because of his mother's citizenship, and the relevant law makes it clear that she wasn't old enough for that to work. The second was that he was born in Hawaii. The Certificate of Live Birth is proof of that, if it is valid. There is one expert asserting that it is not valid. If he is correct, then there is no current proof that Barack is qualified to be President.

Now frankly, I suspect that he was born in Hawaii, so even if this document is fraudulent there will be a valid one available from the state. (There are rumors of a Kenyan birth certificate, but if it really exists and means anything then I assume that Hillary would have used it.) But, if the Certificate of Live Birth is a forgery, then I want to know who created it so we can demand that that person be kept far from any position of power in an Obama administration.

When Barack had two separate claims to being a citizen by birth, there was no special reason to examine either one. Now that one reason is legally invalid, and the other is supported by what is claimed to be a forged official document, he really needs to be more open.

I wonder why Barack doesn't just pull out the copy of his original birth certificate that he mentions finding in a stack of old papers while working on his first book? I assume that is what he used for his passport when he travelled to Indonesia to work on that book. He certainly had a passport before 2007, when the COLB was supposedly created.

PS - Since John McCain was born in the Canal Zone, his eligibility also rests on two claims. Both of his parents were US citizens who had lived in the US before his birth, so the FindLaw pages shows that he meets the qualifications. His second claim is more vague, and depends on whether he was born in part of the Canal Zone that was US Territory.

Once again, I'm agreeing with Brian -- right down the line. All this speculating via the internet using imaged and re-imaged pics of supposed bc is absurd to say the least. And GaryC I'm sure he did at whatever point a candidate has to show his proof of citizenship. Frankly, he's doing the right thing to ignore this silliness on the internet and looking far classier for ignoring it.

I have not yet decided whether I'm going to vote this election or not. I do know this -- I am flat out done voting the lesser of two evils. If I can't feel good about casting my vote, I'm abstaining. And, hell, yes. I have a right to complain if I didn't have a decent candidate to vote for.

" The first is that he is a citizen because of his mother's citizenship, and the relevant law makes it clear that she wasn't old enough for that to work. "

So, does that mean anyone born to a mother under 21 is not an American citizen?

I've been following this idiocy on Free Republic. They've got a whole bunch of lunatic theories, such as Ann Dunham Obama decided to leave her new husband and parents and the prospect of delivering her child in a modern hospital to spend thousands to fly to Kenya to give birth in a grass hut. Yeah, real plausible.

They also have a bunch of posts about the 'descrepancies' in the birth certificate, ignoring that it's a recent recreation that was scanned into a computer then cropped to fit the web page. It doesn't look exactly like someone's paper copy - it must be faked!

I'm voting for Obama primarily because, unlike McCain, at least he doesn't appear to be in the early stages of Alzheimer's. I have first hand experience with Alzheimer's with a close relative and frankly, McCain scares me.

I'm waiting to see who they name as their running mates, because the potential for either one of them to be assassinated once they get into office seems to me to be pretty high! (Kidding, although I really am waiting to see who their choices for VP will be before I pick one.)o_O

JoJo -

You'd take someone who doesn't know anything to someone who might forget something?

That's frightening.

"...so even if this document is fraudulent there will be a valid one available from the state."

Agreed, but this is exactly the point. BHO could 'put this one to bed' in 5 minutes by releasing his COLB to the MSM. Curiously he hasn't, and it doesn't appear that he plans to.

"You'd take someone who doesn't know anything to someone who might forget something?

That's frightening."

Obama can learn, McCain's senility will only get worse.

Obama doesn't know anything? Seems like a pretty smart feller to me:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/13/zakaria.obama/

He certainly knows that Iraq doesn't border Pakistan, unlike McCain. And Malaki seems to think Obama's plan for ending the Iraqi occupation by around 2010 is pretty sound.

McCain's entire campaign now rests on "Well I was right about the surge." All Obama has is being right about not getting involved wuth Iraq in the first place, and how to end that involvement now that we're there. Obama also knows enough not to take advice on the economy from Phil Gramm.

So yes, other than domestic and foreign policies, McCain is clearly the superior candidate.

If we'd taken Obama's advice and left Iraq earlier this year like he wanted, Iraq would be a cesspool of violence right now.

And if you think Obama's smart, you haven't been paying attention. Once he's outside of his stage-managed comfort zone, he's as useless as tits on a boar hog.

Obama's domestic policies are simply implementations of ideas that have failed everywhere they have ever been tried. His foreign policy is stunningly naive, and dangerously short-sighted.

So, other than being a pacifist, a communist, and a racist, he's got a lot to recommend him.

Just not for a position of power.

JoJo:

Obama can learn, McCain's senility will only get worse.

Two things. First, you assume facts not in evidence. McCain shows no signs of dementia or Alzheimer's. I've seen both up close and personal.

Second, your quote above implies that Obama either can or will learn something different than he already knows. But we have seen time and again, that Obama will attempt to alter your view of reality to suit what he has already decided.

Obama believes that Iran can be treated as a rational actor. Obama believes that we can tax ourselves into prosperity. Obama believes he can make socialism work.

Obama believes a lot of things that just ain't so.

"Two things. First, you assume facts not in evidence. McCain shows no signs of dementia or Alzheimer's. I've seen both up close and personal."

So have I and McCain looks and sounds as if he's in the early stages of Alzheimer's.

JoJo, I don't see it. He's sharp, he's not forgetful, hell, he's not even as scatterbrained as Obama Christ.

But Reagan was well into Alzheimer's in his second term, and he still managed to be the best president in my lifetime.

As much as I cannot stand McCain, I'll take him over Obama. Unless he is serious about tapping Huckabee as his veep. There's no way I want that progg a heartbeat away from the big chair.

Obama today: "Israel is a strong friend of Israel"

Yep. The guy's a fucking genius. Can't go two unscripted sentences without jamming a shoe store in his mouth.

In regards to the birth certificate forgery, I would agree 100% that this is what it is. Computers of any kind (except large mainframe) were not around (except in Sci Fi movies). Keypunch data was the norm as well. And, when I being a babyboomer, my birth certificate was hand-typed (Underwood, IBM) not computer processed. The forms would have been completely black and white - and very basic. Most likely from a government printing company either in Hawaii or from the mainland.

Another point -- Hawaii was a brand new state at the time as well. Prior to 1959-1960 it was considered a territory. What was shown is one of the last part of the 20th century/early part of this century.

Plus - the birth certificate WOULD include the religious affiliations of the parents. It was important (throughout most of the 50 states) of what faith the parents were - especially in case of the baby dying prior to being released. In those days, women stayed for at least 5 days to 1 whole week after giving birth - not like today.

Also, even if you were to get a copy of the birth certificate, it would have been via microfische (which was fairly new) and what was printed out - would have been nearly an exact identical copy of the original. All certificates would have been "microfisched" and stored in the County Recorder's office as well as in Washington, D.C. Now the question is - why hasn't he shown those who enquired a birth certificate with the seal of Hawaii? What is he and his wife hiding?

Only the "shadow knows....."

It's to his political benefit to let this simmer because his supporters in the media can spin it as "the right-wing attack machine".

Brian:
"momof3 - The United States is not nor has it ever been a democracy. It is a republic."

Did you read my comment? That was excatly my point. That we should BECOME a democracy, since we foist that off on the rest of the world at every opportunity.

Did you read my comment? That was excatly my point. That we should BECOME a democracy, since we foist that off on the rest of the world at every opportunity.

Actually, that isn't true. We foist the concept of "representative republic" on the rest of the world, but "Democracy" makes for better soundbites for the simpletons to say.

The last place you would want to live is a Democracy. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Which was kinda the point of our representative republic -- to avoid that kind of thing.

I've yet to hear of us setting up electoral colleges in any other country. If any other country had our system, the UN would be sending in an oversight committee to supervise.

As it is now, the minority rules. I think majority-rule would be nice for a change. At the moment, there are more working people than welfare recipients. Give the politicians time, that will change. If the working people could all actually vote someone in, we might could get some reform.

momof3? Are you thinking that through?

Pure majority rule could vote anything in -- the current biggest threat being a theocracy. If majority rule, without the protections for minorities in our constitution, a majority vote could vote atheists have no rights, or your 3 children being taught creationsism in school. They could do away with basic rights we take for granted like trial by jury, a right to a phone call if you're arrested. The list is just too long.

At worse, majority vote could vote away rights; at best, it would force everyone to conform to the majority. No right of individuality, have to go along with the crowd vote. I don't know about you but I'm not willing to throw away my freedom to be me, to march to the beat of my own drum. I am so glad we are a republic, not a democracy. Maybe because I rarely hold the majority point of view and I definitely don't live like most people.

How about letting Ron Paul finally speak. He spoke maybe 3 words in every debate due to the hosts or other candidates cutting him off. I thought this was American and we were allowed to speak.

If you truly believe this then you should first go to fact check
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

On and on it goes is he a citizen or not? Time is running out for an answer to that one. When and if he gets elected and what Joe Biden said comes true about BHO being tested, than alllll of you who voted the man in better march on down to the nearest recruiting station and sign up and stand up for the guy and support his decision. Or you can vote for the other guy and keep on living your life.

All the fuss reminds me of a playground bullying session with no referees or teachers.

More important is how an unknown (except to the vorces who have pushed him) rises so rapidly to become President-elect in CorpUSA.

Our world is embroiled in secrecy, the media work every day to enhance it, and we can't trust career politicians or lawyers who protect them.

So nothing is left for us but to see what the next stage of our push to destruction looks or feels like. Decades of pushing America and Western Civilization to the brink of destruction are about to become fruition.

And there is no place to "hide."

The united states is not and never was a democracy.It is and always has been a republic.Just because those traitors in government tell you our forefathers gave us a democracy does not make it so.
Find one statement that any of the forefathers called this a democracy and I will show you many that called it a republic.
KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!!

Even IF Obama was born in Hawaii(Grandma says he was born in Kenya) his mother was not old enough to convey citizenship under law in Hawaii at that time and his birth-father was a part-Arab citizen of Kenya. Hence even if there was US citizenship it would have been a dual-citizenship. Then Obama's mom divorced her bigamist husband & married an Indonesian Moslem who adopted Barry as his own son and made him a citizen of Indonesia and sent him to be trained as a Moslem under the name Barry Soetoro. That flaky mother of Barry's then sent young Barry to Hawaii where he was raised to adulthood by her parents. He never changed his name back to Obama, applied to various colleges(whose records are sealed) and in 1981 got a passport to Pakistan under unknown citizenship when Pakistan was under a flightban from the US. Arabs view Obama as a Moslem and will not allow Michelle into any country under Sharia-law unless she wears a burkha. The man Obama is not a US citizen and not legally president.