Car blew up last night! Don't weep, it's still under warranty. But the guy who towed it (AAA) was an Iranian who'd been an oil engineer in the old country, but couldn't find work doing that in the States because he didn't have the educational certifications. I found all the out as the trip wore on.... His opening conversational gambit was "The United States is a great country if you have a career or education!"

And I'm all like, well, yeah.

Later, he confessed (unbidden) that the United States was the greatest country anyway. He'd gotten out of Iran in the early 90's, apparently because the cultural and religious intrusions were too insane. He specifically mentioned that Jews were not the problem with this planet.

So anyway, I think the Middle East is full of uneducated people whose religions and other cultural mythologies are all about Kings and potentates and other people who don't have to work for a living. But once they actually experience a culture where they can do what they want, and make a living on their own good abilities, these fantasies of leisure by birthright fall away quickly.

That's the impression I got from this guy, anyway. If I'd met him on Clinton's inauguration day, I'd have hated his guts. But for all his complaints, a few years in capitalist freedom had given him a lot of capitalist gratitude.

Let's not assume everyone from Islamic cultures is irredeemable.

Most of us can come up with at least one example of a "decent" Muslim. I had neighbors in college who flew in the face of the stereotypical Muslim image; three sisters who fled Kuwait in the late 80's/ early 90's and brought their families (husbands included) to the U.S. Unheard of!!! Muslim women, steering not just their own ships, but their husbands' as well. Each of these women was attending the university to learn how to teach English. Apparently this paid a great salary in Kuwait, especially if you're tutoring any "Royals". They were kind enough to enlighten a young American student over tea about the hideous @#$% that was going on back home. Oddly, they still wanted me to come back with them as a bride for their "wealthy nephew", or at least a nanny for their adorable little girl, whereupon I could find a good husband for myself. >>snort

Let's not assume everyone from Islamic cultures is irredeemable.

The problem is, those who aren't irredeemable come with serious consequences.

I read a piece about how the Saudis have been funding the opening of mosques, madrassahs, etc. in this country, to the tune of $80 million.

And there's that figure in Canada, about how 12 percent of Canadian Muslims thought it was okay to blow up Parliament and murder the prime minister in the name of Islam. That's 84,000. Sure, maybe the other 88 percent are moderate. But, what good does that really do you in the face of 84,000 people who are Islamist nutbags?

Polls like that mean nothing. People will tell a pollster whatever they want to hear just to get them off the phone, or to move out of the their path with that goddamn clipboard. If 12% of Canadian islam was truly that militant, we'd know .

I can't see what you're arguing for, except abject fear. Yes, people are dense and cowardly, especially in the Islamic Middle East. So, like, what? To the extent they can be changed they must be changed, and to the extent that doesn't work, we'll have to pursue other approaches.

Take another look at Julianna's comment. These are cultures that are fascinated with being a "prince" or "princess". A lot of humanity has daydreams like that. The first function of that daydream is to promise the dreamer that he won't have to work for living. Plus it allows you to thumb your nose at commonfolk.

People love that idea! It's the oldest daydream on the planet. We're fascinated with it in the United States too, and Mr. Disney made a bundle with it. But by the time time an American reaches puberty, there are better things to dream of. Why be a mere prince when you could be Steve Jobs or Micheal Jordan? In the United States, all you have to do is work for it. Americans are able to burn throw this childish sense of entitlement because the rewards of working well are even better than inheritance.

I've been reading about the Monaco Grand Prix a lot lately, and thereby the 'ruling' Grimaldi family. They're all fucked up. One of the ne'er-do-well 'princesses', daughter of a Hollywood leading lady and a royal prince, knew where the real action was on this planet: She tried to become a pop singer.

The people you're talking about are as horny for modernity as anyone is. And the closer they get to it, the more they want it. The West just needs to show a little more leg.

Burn through etc....

If 12% of Canadian islam was truly that militant, we'd know .

How? Do you think it's in their best interest to keep the general public informed?

What we do know of how militant far too many Muslims in the west are is only through the work of people like Debbie Schlussel and those in England who, at their own peril, sneak into mosques and Muslim gatherings. That's where you get the tapes of the British Muslim Imams calling for a quite different sort of approach than they do publicly.

(Thanks for not making fun of the "royal prince" thang....)

Yeah, but everybody's like that, not just the Canadian muslims. If you were at the coffeepot outside the conference room for the last meeting of the Republican National Committee, you'd swear America was going into the toilet. Same for the Democrats.

We need to worry about these things as problems actually appear.

Wanna glimpse into the future? Consider what happened with Tyson this week. They had so many muslims working in their plants that they had to give them their own holiday, so the scratched Labor Day off the calendar to make room. People went apeshit, so now they've put labor day back.... Ta-da! That's the American way, isn't it? Accommodate everyone at the cost of productivity and profit... Until someone figures out how to do it better.

Heck, you don't need 84k people to blow up parliament. Guy Fawkes and his pals were only eight. I remember when Thatcher came to power in the UK, and someone asked me if I thought assassination would be justified. I was young, and it seemed worthy of consideration.

The point is, lots of young people - and I understand muslims are younger than the population as a whole - will advocate violence, and it means nothing except that they are young. Going to lock up all young people until they're old?

You need a much finer net to catch the real troublemakers.

To change the subject, my cat had 4 kittens today. Clever thing! Three gingers, who must be male (Huey, Dewey and Louie, but I don't know which is which) and one tortoiseshell, who must be female (Jezebel). My collie's an uncle, but doesn't know whether he's supposed to eat them or what. In a couple of weeks they'll be climbing all over him.

"If 12% of Canadian islam was truly that militant, we'd know"

A classic mistake of Westerners is this blindly arrogant belief that other groups could *never* be smart or cunning enough to pull one over on us - oh no, we're much smarter, we'd just *know*. I do understand how the superiority-complex-gone-too-far arises, but it's dysfunctional. In South Africa we have a slightly analogous situation where domestic helpers (maids) often help organize armed home robberies/invasions (it works well because they know what's in the house, they know the security systems, the dogs, the comings and goings of the owners etc.) ... in some cases (no exaggeration) the (black) domestic helpers had been working for the (white) family for 20 or 30 years, and were trusted COMPLETELY. The white survivors always express complete shock and disbelief upon discovery that their domestic helpers were involved. What it boils down to is an ingrained, almost unconscious white belief that their black helpers are just too stupid to pull that over on them. And boy can these helpers 'play the role' - i.e. they play dumb, and bide their time.

Sure you might say, this is different ... search YouTube for 'undercover mosque' and watch some of those.

Anyway, from a practical perspective, it doesn't matter if the 'invaders' see themselves as such or not - this is only an academic point, as the end effect will be the same.

> other groups could *never* be
> smart or cunning enough to pull
> one over

Well, what you got? AMy's got a poll, preumably incompentently phrased, where a bunch of anonymous people say they'll do something that you wouldn't like.

What do you guys think we should, y'know, do?

And besides, South Africa seems like a weird nation for comparison. If there's a problem, it's that incoming western culture didn't do enough to enoble the lives of the local population it dominated, often harshly, for over a century. The problem under discussion today is more like a bunch of hillbillies moving to the city, without knowing how to handle revenooers and indoor plumbing.

Read Andy McCarthy"s "Willful Blindness: Memoir of the Jihad" and then tell us that they are a "bunch of hillbillies moving to the city, without knowing how to handle revenooers and indoor plumbing". Good grief.

Also watch the documentary "Farewell Israel" by Joel Gilbert. And "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West" by Wayne Kopping. Also "Islam vs Islamists/ Muslims Against Jihad" a double disc documentary. Very few Muslims willing to speak out. One lives here in Arizona. Zuhdi Jasser MD...his website is

http://www.aifdemocracy.org/

A very brave man. He's in the 3rd documentary listed. All docs worthwhile. I highly recommend them to everyone. Amazon has all three.

Again... What do you want to *do*, other than panic-monger? Quit telling us what mood we should be in, and start telling what you think should happen (besides 'Wake up, sheeple!').

I got more faith in modernity than you do.

Now Amy be fair, muslims jews and christians can live in peace.

So long as
muslims are in the majority,
the koran replaces secular law,
christians and jews accept their rightful place as partial citizens with partial rights,
and you consider any further violence as an internal domestic misunderstandigs which will be looked into by islamic courts where the vitcims testimony will be considered worthless.

Lets give peace a chance

And Crid, that we would know line was the dumbest fucking thing I have ever seen you write.

I often disagree with your position, but you usually are far more reasoned then that.

Just to give you an exapmle back when I was a christian - mormon specifically, I would have attacked the US government if the church leadership had ordered it.

Quite frankly muslims arent the only people we need to worry about. If things really get bad here all sorts of bat shit crazy christian fundies will start takeing the "end of days" shit far too seriously and they'll make a play for control of the government as well

Has their been a wave of marauding Muslim fantatics sweeping down from the Great White North that I haven't read about?

Again, pleeze, will someone one tell me what were's supposed to _do_ with all this fabulous awareness of yours?

> I would have attacked the
> US government if the church
> leadership had ordered it.

In retrospect, you're glad you didn't. Should the rest of us be glad we didn't take you out pre-emptively, Janet Reno-style?

Someone earlier in the stack pointed out that a lot of this is youthful foolishness. About 12 years ago I went to the Museum of Tolerance, and was appalled at the teenagers were making wisecracks all afternoon. I was about to get cranked about it on the way to dinner, but then my date said "Um.... They're teenagers."

Insomuch as I wasnt killed yes, other than that, I really dont care.

And in my case it could be blown off a a matter of 'youth'. But thanks to my aunts I know lots of southern bible thumpers, and I kow many mormons from my own past ages ranging from teenagers to octogenarians who felt the same way - trust me, they are just waiting for a chance to "serve their God"*

*The only reason I capatalized god is because it was a quote

> Insomuch as I wasnt killed
> yes, other than that, I
> really dont care.

Help me understand: What's included in the territory of of "other than that"?

> And in my case it could
> be blown off a a matter
> of 'youth'

How would we have known? Be glad you came of age during a Republican administration! You could ended up like the Davidians.

Youda been the Branch Lujlpians. You'd have been their charismatic leader, Lujlp the Supreme, who settled the disputes within the compound and made wives of 14-year-old girls. We've seen this happen before, dude...

Covered in other than that would be death and destruction of people I dont know and dont care about

And oddly enough I used to think about tarting my own religion - Although I've come to realise that most children dont grow up with meglomaniacal fantasies

What we do know of how militant far too many Muslims in the west are is only through the work of people like Debbie Schlussel and those in England who, at their own peril, sneak into mosques and Muslim gatherings. That's where you get the tapes of the British Muslim Imams calling for a quite different sort of approach than they do publicly.

I would recommend you read the book The Islamist by Ed Husein--an autobiographical account of a British guy of Pakistani descent who becomes a radical Islamist as a teen, then regrets it in his 20s and talks about what goes on in these groups.

"People will tell a pollster whatever they want to hear just to get them off the phone, or to move out of the their path with that goddamn clipboard." Crid, you mean to tell me that that many people have trouble handling it the way I do -- "fuck off" -- or even just taking a wide arc around them. I don't believe it. If these are skewed, it's because the fanatics are the ones who want to be counted and actually stop and get up on their soap box.

As for the rest, you've got to be kidding me. Not a threat? (Though I agree with lujlp that Christian nutters also are.) Umm, from the North, not so far (and notice I qualify that not so far) but does 9/11 ring a bell?

Norman, congratulations! Pictures, please. I wanna see some baby kittens. I need a peaceful counter balance to the religion of "peace". I need me a baby kitten fix. (And, yes, I have been known to google and search you tube when necessary for same. You got them on you tube?)

Sigh. Haven't had a cat in 10 years. Will I ever stop going through cat withdrawal? (Reminder to self: T's allergic, T's allergic, T's allergic.) Also, I'm rather like Mr. Bojangles. The critter I had for 18 and a half years died 13 years ago and I'm still grieving. She was so uinique. I will never find another one like her. Such a New York bitch!

"Moderate" islam is a largely western phenomenon; and almost all of it in the west is in the far west, i.e., North America.

Being a militant anything requires a lot of energy and outrage, and time to practice devoting that outrage at the convenient target, etc. Most people simply don't have it, particularly when they are living in a place that affords them other [and more self-indulgent] luxuries to spend their time and energy upon. Which is a large part of the reason that islam-as-she-is-practiced in the Middle East and other predominantly muslim countries constantly rails against the sins of the west, which includes our materialism [read: self-indulgent luxuries] and our sexual gratification [read: ditto] and our yadda yadda [read: you guessed it]. And it's why they prohibit it. The dumber and more hand-to-mouth you keep your people the easier it is to mold them into a pliable army of jihadists.

Those muslims who immigrate here? Many start out as frothing, foaming extremists, but most become innoculated against it fairly quickly. Those who don't are most likely the ones who love our self-indulgences, but simply view us as placid and docile and easily conquerable.

They're going to be the Ottoman Sultans who conquered Byzantium simply because it was easy and became the exact same type of bloated, self-satisfied charlatans as the ones they deposed. [For the record, the competing factions of Byzantine power-politics were more interested in who led the army against the Turks than in whether the Turks were defeated. As a result, when the "wrong" group was in charge of the army, the "right" faction worked against it the same as the Turkish raiders and Turk General Alp Arslan did. Byzantium lost a huge battle and the "right" political faction happily submitted to Turkish rule almost immediately. I see uncanny parallels to today with the "wrong" people now in charge and the "right" people prefering to see us lose than in having any credit for anything go to the "wrong" people.]