The Binge-Drinking Age
College presidents are coming out and campaigning against the 21-year-old drinking age, writes John Hechinger in the WSJ:
More than 100 college presidents, including leaders at Dartmouth, Duke and Middlebury, have joined the month-old Amethyst Initiative, which argues that "the 21-year-old drinking age is not working" and "has created a culture of dangerous binge drinking."John McCardell, a history professor and former president of Middlebury College in Vermont, is leading the effort. His group, Choose Responsibility, a nonprofit unaffiliated with the college, has received financial backing from money manger Julian Robertson. Mr. McCardell says he receives no money from the alcohol industry.
He argues current laws drive drinking underground, causing more problems than they solve. "The law is out of step with reality," he says. "The law is so obviously unjust and discriminatory. It ought to at least be the subject of debate."
But he and the college presidents are taking on powerful constituencies, including some of their colleagues, the top government traffic-safety agency, the insurance industry and public-health authorities, all of which say the higher drinking age saves lives. Even representatives of the alcohol industry say they support current laws.
Laura Dean-Mooney, president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, says she is alarmed by the initiative. The mother of a 17-year-old high-school senior, she says she wouldn't want her child to go to a school whose presidents had signed the statement, saying it sent the message, "It's OK to drink underage."
This is because she is a fundamentalist, not a thinker.
"There is a better way," John Cloud writes in Time:
At first it sounds a little nutty, but you might consider drinking with your kids. Incongruously, the way to produce fewer problem drinkers is to create more drinkers overall--that is, to begin to create a culture in which alcohol is not an alluring risk but part of quotidian family life. Of course, that's a mostly European approach to alcohol, but there's reason to think it could work here. And it may be the best way to solve the binge-drinking problem....But as psychologist Stanton Peele writes in his 2007 book Addiction-Proof Your Child (one of his 10 books on addiction), "When alcohol is presented as impossibly dangerous, it becomes alluring as a 'forbidden fruit' ... The choice between abstinence and excess is not a good one to force on children."
By the early part of the current decade, alcohol officials had noticed the numbers on binge-drinking, and they embarked on a new kind of prohibitionist strategy to discourage it: the "social host" law, the most sweeping change in American alcohol-enforcement since Prohibition. Social-host laws make residents over 21 responsible for any underage drinking that occurs at their home. The laws vary, but those who break them can be fined, forced to pay for police costs that result from underage drinking or even jailed. Twenty-four states and more than 100 local jurisdictions have passed such laws, the majority of them in the past five years. Many of the laws make no allowance even for parents to drink with their own kids; of the 55 social-host laws passed by California jurisdictions, for instance, only 25 make exceptions for parents.
That matters because there's evidence that drinking with your kids--not buying them alcohol for a party but actually drinking with them at home--is a good way to teach responsible drinking behavior.
Interestingly, check out the deal on those studies on alcohol's effect on developing brains. Also from the Time story:
It is accepted as an article of faith in the prevention community that "the teen brain" should not be exposed to any alcohol. But the research on alcohol and the young brain is actually quite murky. It has mainly shown that very high doses of alcohol given to adolescent rats (those roughly 40 days old) affect those animals differently from the way alcohol affects adult rats. In typical studies, the rats are injected with 5 g of alcohol per 1,000 g of their body weight, often after the rodents have been deprived of food for 12 hours. Rats metabolize alcohol about 10 times as fast as humans, but in a typical rat, this 5 g/kg dose on an empty stomach still results in a monumentally high blood-alcohol concentration. "It's difficult to compare to humans, but it's about a case of beer," says Aaron White, an alcohol researcher at the Duke University Medical Center--that's a case of beer ingested all at once.What these rat studies tell us is that exposure to very large amounts of alcohol (particularly repeated exposure) probably inhibits normal brain development. And yet there are signs that in certain ways the adolescent brain is better equipped to handle alcohol than the adult brain. Adolescent rats show less vulnerability than adult rats to alcohol's sedating effects (which is one reason kids can party so much longer than adults). Other studies have found that, as White writes, "adolescents may be less sensitive than adults to the effects of alcohol on motor coordination." None of this means you should let your kids get drunk with their friends. But there's little reason to think small amounts of alcohol consumed at family meals will be as harmful.
Because alcohol is harder to obtain now than in the '70s and '80s, more kids are delaying their first drink. But most people will drink before 21, and it's a reasonable goal for parents to be there when it happens. "What if a kid has never had alcohol and drinks for the first time at 21?" asks Peele, the author of Addiction-Proof Your Child. "If they haven't developed a capacity to regulate themselves with alcohol at all, you can be headed for trouble."
Stanton's book is here: Addiction Proof Your Child: A Realistic Approach to Preventing Drug, Alcohol, and Other Dependencies
I grew up mormon, no booze, no coffe, no soda, no magazines, if my father thought he could have gotten away with I'm sure there would have been no books either.
This is a guy who freaked out over me watching "pop up" videos on VH1 - never mind the fact that he was watching it when I came in the room and I was 17.
Luckily my mother wasnt such a fucking tool, and her brother used to be an alchoholic and had lots of photos from his motercycle accident. That coupled with my famillys history of alchol abuse(on distplay at EVERY familly reunion) ensured I had no impulse what so ever to try alcohol.
In fact given how little most pain meds effect me until you get into the heavy stuff I try to avoid taking those as well.
But I suppose it helps when your smart enough to realize the best revenge you can get on fucked up parents isnt to piss them off in some vain attempt to get their attention, but to come out happy, ignore them and then watch at how they are suddenly scramling for your attention
lujlp at August 22, 2008 3:13 AM
"Social-host laws make residents over 21 responsible for any underage drinking that occurs at their home. ... Many of the laws make no allowance even for parents to drink with their own kids."
That's horrendous! I had no idea such laws were on the books in the USA. This is back to the good old days where sodomy was illegal - the government thought it could tell you what kinds of sex were ok.
Our kids have been allowed to try alcohol from the first time they were curious. Its all about removing the mystery and raising them to be responsible drinkers. At the moment, they still find alcohol beverages unpleasant. When that changes, I want them to get acquainted with it at home, not under peer pressure.
The government should have zero interest in what people do in the privacy of their own homes.
bradley13 at August 22, 2008 3:44 AM
As a 23 year old with teenage sibs, I'm asked for a lot of favors. I don't like seeming like an old hag but the risk of name calling is more appealing than jail time - so I just never supply them.
They get it from somewhere anyway, though. And if they can't find a 21+ year old weed is easy to come by. Someone always has that. Not that I think it's good logic for legalizing booze but it's just a fact that booze is harder to find and it drives lots of kids to find other ways to entertain themselves. Getting a little (or a lot) effed up isn't negotiable but the substance of choice is.
Also: this whole argument about getting really drunk one time and puking/having a bad experience leading kids to never drink again is bullshit. I base this on the fact that I am around teen agers frequently (against my will!) and was in college not too long ago.
Everyone get obliterated. Everyone pukes sometimes. It'll prevent them from drinking THE NEXT NIGHT. As in, you go get trashed on Thirsty Thursday. Go nuts. Get sick. Wake up hung over. Possibly miss class. Drink lots of water and then say to your friends "let's take it easy tonight" which means maybe a joint, more water, pizza delivery and Halo or a new movie from Netflix. Saturday it's back to business.
The only way the "get sick once" to deter kids from drinking would work is if we did it to ten year olds multiple times in an attempt to brainwash them. Condition them. A Clockwork Orange style. See the six pack in the fridge and instantly start puking. But when the situation is 15, 16, 17 year olds in a social gathering having fun that fun bonding experience far outweighs the puking part. Cause most likely you won't remember it anyway. You just feel gross the next day. But you forget that, too, after a little while.
Gretchen at August 22, 2008 4:38 AM
"Social-host laws make residents over 21 responsible for any underage drinking that occurs at their home. ... Many of the laws make no allowance even for parents to drink with their own kids."
Sheesh, considering the hell I've been getting for allowing my daughters cafe au lait, I can't imagine the shitfire that would rain down with a glass of wine or some beer. Honestly, considering the parents populating the spectrum of "underparenting" to "helicopter parents", you're never going to make everyone happy. Someone's going to call DCFS and you're going to have frequent visitors to your house with uncomfortable interviews (I used to be one of those interviewers, stupidest #$%& I ever did)
Consider this: look at the idea that sending kids off to university at the age of 18 without having parented them at all as a huge mistake. Going from zero responsibility to 100% freedom is begging for that late-night/early morning call from the dean of students. People are figuring out that maybe having their kids do their general education credits for two years at the local community college (!!!while still living at home!!!) before heading off to that state university is a wiser choice. Ease them into the transition if they're not mature enough to handle the freedom. Take a good look at your kid and be honest. Screw your misplaced pride and do what's best for your kid, not what looks best under the scrutiny of other parents who are crowing about sending Sookie and Biff to a top ten or Ivy League school. Then read the results; the kids that go to CC for their general ed credits and stay at home....DO BETTER ACADEMICALLY. Here's just one article-
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4062/is_200706/ai_n19434746
Why? Who knows. Perhaps the thought of crawling out of the puke-sodden bathtub on a Sunday morning while your parents stand over you is enough of a deterrent. (Then again, there are some high schoolers down the block that don't let that stop them now....)
juliana at August 22, 2008 5:44 AM
Back in the olden days (the 70s), when I was in high school, the drinking age was lowered from 21 to 18. All 18 year olds were required to obtain and carry a majority card (I still have mine, somewhere). This was right after the big hooha about kids being old enough to be drafted and killed, but not old enough to drink or vote, etc. and so on. So our legislature in CT lowered the drinking age. Of course, with that came the inevitable under-under-age drinking, which we were all doing anyway, because we had kids who would go into their parents liquor cabinets, stealing the vodka, or whatever, putting it in Skippy Peanut Butter jars for easier transport, and sharing it with their friends. We used to hang at the pond up the street from our house, there was a bunch of us, all 7th and 8th graders, and pass around the jar. We'd be ice skating too, I remember once my brother fell into the fire we had going and burned his eyebrows, but the point is we were drinking anyway, didn't matter what the age limit was. Of course, once they lowered the age to 18, there were myriad car accidents and such that were blamed on alcohol, and so in about 2 years, after much clamoring by many parents, the legislature changed the legal drinking age back to 21. Those of us who were in between 18 and 21 at that point got grandfathered in, but still. There are still kids drinking, and still getting in accidents, and then there are kids that aren't drinking and still getting in accidents, prompting the CT legislature, in all its infinite (*cough*) wisdom, to make it tougher for 16 year olds now to get their driver's licenses, and passing all these laws about how they can't drive with anyone else but family in the car until they've had their license for 6 months, they can't drive after 11 p.m., unless they're coming home from work, thye have to have so many hours behind the wheel with their learner's permit before they can take the test, etc. and so on. It's freakin ridiculous, and it all comes down to parents abdicating their responsibility to teach their children to be responsible! It makes me sick to my stomach.
Flynne at August 22, 2008 5:51 AM
When I was finishing high school, they changed the drinking age from 19 to 18 (in Canada), just in time for my 18th birthday. I had already be drinking occasionally since I was 16, and was allowed to try alcohol at home when I was a kid (German parents, so of course it was bier). They bumped the drinking age up again 6 months later but I was still able to drink while 18 which amused me at the time.
When we would go on road trips from Toronto to Buffalo, NY for the cheap booze, it was a drag because NYs drinking age was 21, so that only happened in university.
The drinking age in Canada is still 19. There are a lot of restrictive laws now governing driving just like in CT, apparently, that apply to young drivers. Because there are so many people with international backgrounds in Toronto, it's hard to say there's a common attitude towards booze. The European ones are pretty comfortable with it, and a lot of other people don't seem all that interested in drinking at all, I guess due to their culture. There are a lot of Jamaicans here, so guess what they are into!
Chrissy at August 22, 2008 6:33 AM
Flynne - while the GA over-reacted on the whole 16 year old driving thing, it could have been worse.
Frankly, I was expecting them to try to ban the high-horsepower cars like the WRX (2 fatal accidents, 7 dead from driving in excess of 100 mph).
I'm not sure I approve of the whole forcing parents to go to driver's ed with the kids - that strikes me as a business deal with the driving schools.
What I would have gone for, however, is a horsepower limit for the under 18 crowd. 16? You get 100 bhp, no more. And if you're over 70, if you don't intend to drive it the way it was intended, no ZR-1 for you. You do not get a ZR-1 and go 50 in the fast lane.
brian at August 22, 2008 6:52 AM
As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm cheering this effort. It's about time this freaking age discrimination was fought. Because that's all it is plain and simple.
I hit the discos big time when I left home back in the '70's but I chose not to drink (and alas I also chose not to drive, pity because I would have the been the perfect designated driver). I'd amuse my friends sitting there drinking watered down cokes but the bars were happy because the mark-up was ridiculous.
I don't remember exactly what year it was that NY went from 18 to 21 but I was over 21 (so sometime after 1979) and didn't drink but I would rant how unfair it was and people would say why do you care? I care because if it's discrimination. If you are going to make 18-year-olds register for the draft (don't get me started on that one, even without the blatant sexual discrimination), charge them as an adult if accused of a crime, can enter into and be held to the terms of a contract, allow them to vote and to marry without parental permission, it is utterly absurd to tell them they can't have a drink. If they have all the responsibilities of an adult, then they should, likewise, have all the privileges that go along.
I have never stopped saying that it's age discrimination, plain and simple, and unjust. So I'm loving seeing this battle taken up.
I do wonder if it's as altruistic as they claim. I know here in Albany the MADD freaks and law enforcement were coming down on the colleges and faulting them for not preventing students under 21 for going into local bars with fake ID's. (If I recall right, I believe SUNY Albany was named one of the top ten party schools and I believe it having lived for a short space by the school between two frat houses, never again, I'm too old for that shit.) I don't see how that's their responsibility; their job is to educate, not police, so even if that's their true motive, to get MADD assholes and the cops off their case (and trust me, Albany cops do not do their job in this regard, they drive right by and ignore the open the container law as kids party on the street), I'm still cheering them and their motives.
As for kids drinking in the home, I'm not sure. It seems ridiculous to bust some one for giving a 12 year old a sip of beer or letting a kid have a glass of wine with dinner but, man, something should prevent these parents who want to be the "cool" parent (newsflash: being a parent means being very uncool; if your kid, never hates you for a moment, you just aren't doing your job) and will help their 16 year old throw that kegger. I've no sympathy for that kind of asshole when they're jailed. There should be exceptions with your kid (you can't give to anyone else's visiting kid) but I can also see laws limiting just how much and maybe some age. (No giving a baby alcohol to make them sleep.)
As for not drinking at home, making them drink. If that's so, my daughter and I are exceptions to the rule. My mother was a holy roller who considered alcohol sinful. When I asked about Jesus' always drinking wine, she claimed that they called grape juice wine in the Buybull. So no alcohol in home growing up at all. I grew up to leave the religion behind but I've always been a tea-totaller. My daughter grew up without alchohol and has only drank a few times and then only a couple of drinks at most. She's never been drunk. Like me, she doesn't get the attraction of being drunk. It just doesn't look like fun to either of us.
T's Grammy at August 22, 2008 7:03 AM
>>this whole argument about getting really drunk one time and puking/having a bad experience leading kids to never drink again is bullshit. I base this on the fact that I am around teen agers frequently (against my will!) and was in college not too long ago.
Totally agree with every molecule in my being, Gretchen!
I know the "one time was enough" is Amy's experience, but it seems to be an alien concept to many male teenagers.
Unusually, our eldest son (20) doesn't drink at all - though his college friends are often plastered. Because our eldest is vastly in the minority, I don't extrapolate from his behavior.
Our youngest (17), on the other hand, is sometimes a face-down-in-flowerbeds idiot - as are his lovely, beer-lovin' friends.
They all fall down - get up again - recover - and repeat.
As parents, we are honestly deeply baffled by the difference between our two sons.
Any pats on the back we might have given ourselves about being "European" about drinking alcohol - i.e - relaxed but discerning -have been demolished by our youngest!
Jody Tresidder at August 22, 2008 7:06 AM
"You do not get a ZR-1 and go 50 in the fast lane." Oh come on I can't wait till I'm old and loaded so I can get in 6 figure sports car and go tooling down the highway at just below the speed limit. Obviously in the right lane only.
vlad at August 22, 2008 7:08 AM
Flynne, I missed that bit until I read brian's then reread yours. You mean, if a kid doesn't have a family member that drives, they can't get a permit? My daughter would have been screwed in CT because I didn't drive and we have no other family (haven't had anything to do with family I've mentioned for at least 15 years). (She went to a commercial driving place because driver's ed was full when she was 17 and I've always thought that was a good thing because I think they taught better.)
T's Grammy at August 22, 2008 7:08 AM
Jody - My sister and I were raised the same way but totally differ like your kids (won't include my brother b/c he was heavily favored by our dad so his jerkish behavior is no surprise). I don't know what to say. I oft question my sister's behavior (she just left for her freshman year at NC State!)
Getting obliterated teaches kids many things including:
1. How to pace yourself
2. How drinking on an empty stomach affects you
3. Taking shots will eff you up way faster than beer
4. How to sink a ping pong ball into a molding Solo cup which contains 1/4 of a beer with your eyes closed. This is called Beirut.
My main concern is drinking and driving. The law makes this stuff go underground and causes sneaky behavior. Unless we're seriously willing to perform sketchy behavior modifications on kids we have to deal with the reality that they will drink and education doesn't help. Seeing an alcoholics liver will only make some kid say "I BET MATT'S LOOKS LIKE THAT ALREADY!" followed by hilarious laughter. Repetition doesn't work either.
Gretchen at August 22, 2008 7:26 AM
Yep, that's the way it's written, T'S Grammy. I couldn't believe it either, but it seems that the GA is bound and determined to save us from ourselves. They don't even have driver's ed in our schools anymore, it was a victim of the budget cuts. I took driver's ed in the summer between my junior and senior years, because my birthday is late in the year (Nov.), as is Daughter #1's. Now, I have to go online to download her permit application and get that going so that maybe she'll have her driver's license in time for her senior year. Sheesh. o_o
Flynne at August 22, 2008 7:27 AM
Hey, T's Grammy--didn't realize you were a fellow Albanian! Howdy, neighbor!
That said, I heartily second your comment re: the MADD fascists. Thanks for reppin' 'da 518!
Kim at August 22, 2008 7:32 AM
My parents let me drink wine at dinner when I was thirteen, and I survived. In fact, I basically quit drinking in 1990 - I don't care for the taste.
I never felt like it was 'forbidden fruit' and it's hard to think of drinking as particularly cool when you're sipping wine while sitting at the dinner table in a suburban Michigan tract house with your parents.
JoJo at August 22, 2008 7:54 AM
>>>Seeing an alcoholics liver will only make some kid say "I BET MATT'S LOOKS LIKE THAT ALREADY!" followed by hilarious laughter. Repetition doesn't work either.
My god, you do know teenagers Gretchen!
I lost my own father in a car accident (I was 11 & I still miss him - the accident was drink-related), so I've always had the impeccable moral authority to lecture about road sense.
With the younger "hot head" boy, we absolutely forbade him from driving after dusk for his first year.
Around Christmas, he borrowed the new family car at 11 am one morning - to pick up the DVD of "Jackass" from a friend. It was snowing, the 17-year-old hothead didn't have the brains to slow because of the snow - he totaled the car & almost took out our neighbor's (empty) front room.
(He was uninjured, and the Jackass DVD was fine too...)
Jody Tresidder at August 22, 2008 8:14 AM
Hey Chrissy,
Canada doesn't have a drinking age, it is set at the provincial level, the age of majority for the province. In BC it is 19, in Quebec 18 as examples. The age of majority at the federal level is 18, not that is matters as far as drinking goes.
Darryl at August 22, 2008 8:25 AM
I came to these same conclusions when I went to Germany at 16, and saw my new friends get pleasantly buzzed on beer, because they could buy that but not hard liquor. Then I came back to America, and saw my old friends get completely f-ing hammered on hard liquor, because it was easier to get a bottle of Jack than a case of Bud.
It's quite clear that the drinking age laws _made_ the binge drinking problem, and it's nice to seem College presidents realize that.
Josh M. at August 22, 2008 8:28 AM
I don't really give a crap WHAT people do with their drinking habits. At 18 you are an adult (or should be) and if you want to pollute your liver that's your problem. I fully support the right of any individual to screw up his or her own life as he or she sees fit.
What irritates me about this whole argument is the never-ending litany of "Will lowering the drinking age make young people drink more?" "Will it make them drink less?" Who CARES what adults decide do do with it? It has never been a legitimate function of government to babysit people's health anyway. (Ask me how I feel about trans fat bans, but at least that's at the state level.)
Speaking of which, the whole method of getting to a national drinking age is enough to make me against it. People pay state taxes and elect leaders to make these decisions at the state level, but then the federal government takes some of their federal tax money and uses it to bribe the states to override their decisions. So we get stuck paying twice to get what we didn't want in the first place. Total abuse of federal power.
Rant off.
Pirate Jo at August 22, 2008 8:44 AM
Okay Jojo, fellow (onceuponatime) Michigander, what part of the Mitten were you in? We know Amy used to live there, and I've had the run of the lower half of the state...just curious. As to the context of this thread, I remember how we had to run for Indiana if we wanted Everclear and Purple Passion. Coors was out for awhile as well. As if legislating will make a difference. Lord knows, we had plenty of pot in Ann Arbor (Hash Bash, anyone?)
Bugger, who ate all the Doritos?
juliana at August 22, 2008 8:49 AM
"With the younger "hot head" boy, we absolutely forbade him from driving after dusk for his first year." Yet he still wrecked the car and almost did the same to the neighbors house.
Personally DUI is just about the stupidest thing that one can get caught for and the penalties are too freaking loose. I'm not sure what the correlation between underage drinking (which I did plenty of) and drinking and driving which I have never done and will never do. It has nothing to do with alcohol but common sense.
If I drink my reaction time is impaired the extent to which it is impaired varies with dose plus the state of my body (hydration, food, etc). I know what a 12 pack will do to me if a kill it in one night, same as a six pack over the course of 3 hours. Now what will one or two beers do to me at this current point? I don't have a blood analyzer so I can only guess. Easiest thing is don't drink if you have to drive, it's not really that complicated. Rotate with your friends and family as to who is the DD. Better still make friends with someone who has an alcohol allergy.
vlad at August 22, 2008 8:52 AM
Vlad,
Should have made clear, the hothead was cold sober when he did his idiot 11 am snow spin. We reckon he's one of those teenagers who has a secret check list of 'Dumb Things I ABSOLUTELY Must Do Before I'm 20' under his bed.
Jody Tresidder at August 22, 2008 9:03 AM
I'm not sure that drinking age laws "made" the binge drinking problem. I think being young, inexperienced and invincible leads to binge drinking. With my crew, back in the days of big hair (we were all binge drinkers when we could get it), our parents ranged from anti-drinking to non-activist tea totallers to social drinkers to heavy drinkers. Of those that got the occassional sip at home, it was always delivered "on the sly". I can see how the taboo makes it intriguing to taste, but I think its the recklessness of youth that leads to taking it to an extreme.
I don't recall heavy drinking as ever being a direct result of alcohol being forbidden. It was just fun. And maybe symbolic (although I never thought that way) of other things forbidden? With your inhibitions lowered, you say and do things that are considered non-PC and everyone else, being in the same state, is OK with it. If your non-PC streak comes from hate, that could make for some dangerous shit. But if it comes from repressing thoughts it's fairly innocuous. When we consistently bombard kids with directives about what is and isn't OK to even think the need for some venue to vet those taboo thoughts seems inevitable. I dunno...just pondering aloud.
moreta at August 22, 2008 9:12 AM
bradley13 - "Our kids have been allowed to try alcohol from the first time they were curious. Its all about removing the mystery and raising them to be responsible drinkers. At the moment, they still find alcohol beverages unpleasant. When that changes, I want them to get acquainted with it at home, not under peer pressure."
I could not agree more. I would not have chosen to de so myself, but my wife is of Italian decent and spent a number of her teen years living in Italy, and, as such, she insisted that the way to keep kids from abusing alcohol was to allow them to try it (in very small amounts).
Time has proven her correct about this. Our daughters are both adults, and never had any drinking issues as teenagers (one now enjoys alcohol in moderation, one doe not drink at all). Same pattern has thus far held true for our teenaged son.
Having been allowed to try it themselves, they have had little desire to experiment on their own, nor have they felt a desire to go over-board with something that they had been denied.
The approach worked out well in our case, an I suspect it would in most others as well.
slwerner at August 22, 2008 9:20 AM
Jody,
I'll take that as a compliment - so thanks :-)
I am at a unique age. I remember very well the way my mind worked when I was 16, 17, etc. I remember feeling a certain way towards things. Using my current mindset to analyze my past mindset allows me to see both sides of the coin.
In order to truly get through to teenagers we have to remember how they think. "No" and "b/c i said so" isn't a good enough answer even though parents feel it should be. They aren't wired the same way (hormones!) and don't have the life experience (defaulting on a mortgage isn't really a concern to teenagers - whereas for MOST responsible adults it's a pretty good motivator to go to work and not be a booze hound).
Teenagers, both boys and girls, have insecurities even if they seem like they have a good head on their shoulders. They also don't think they can die driving fast in the snow. I know this b/c I remember feeling that way! Even now I'll do something totally asinine every now and then - fueled by immature road rage, some how I need to prove to the other driver they suck - while driving and it scares me. I think, wow, where did that come from? It's like residual asshole-teenagerness. I tell it politely to fuck off and then I slow down. It's a miserable, negative way to be in addition to being dangerous.
Teenagers - their reaction is "haha dude that was effin' CLOSE, yo!" I don't know if all teenagers talk like that but my sibs and their friends do, and I'll admit I do around peers.
We have to think like they think in order to have any effect whatsoever no matter what the message we're trying to send out.
Now, as far as the drinking age I fail to see how the argument "if you can go to war you should be allowed to drink" doesn't hold up. It makes all the sense in the world and is entirely accurate. It seems lawmakers and uppity anti-alcohol people feel it's okay to ignore the obvious unfairness of their selectiveness. If you don't want to give someone a right to drink don't let them go off with a gun to die or lose limbs. They are quite comfortable in their hypocrisy. After all it's about saving lives! It's about THE CHILDRENNNN!
Gretchen at August 22, 2008 9:40 AM
I wish them luck but MADD is the new temperence movement and are damn near the level of terrorists in their fundamentalist mindset. Emotional terrorists.
Not really ever been a serious drinker myself. Mom let me have a beer from time to time in high school that somehow morphed into both my parents thinking I really really liked beer. Its ok, but most times I can't stand the taste after 1-3 beers. Thankfully I didn't inherit either of my parent's penchants for drinking or smoking (I did get the one for liking not so healthy foods). An aunt once told me when I was 23 or so that she never saw me drinking.. "you can drink now you know!". Yeah, so? Perhaps it doesnt do much for me? Beer after a long day can taste really good or a nice glass of wine with dinner but thats about it.
Though watching your father make an ass of himself being drunk on an airplane when I was 12 might explain one reason booze doesn't do much for me. Getting blamed earlier for losing the bag during the security screening that had his duty free vodka in it didnt help either. Yeah, Dad its your son's fault you didnt watch your bag with your cheap booze in it.
Sio at August 22, 2008 9:48 AM
I grew up around the military in the 70's and 80's, and while my parents were very conservative, I can remember doing a puzzle with my mom and her letting me take sips from her wine glass. I am completely in agreement that if you expose teenagers to alcohol in a responsible way, you are much less likely to encounter problems down the road, as it isn't an unknown issue.
It also comes down to those who want to be thier kids friend, instead of thier parent. These are, most likely, going to be the same person who goes out on the weekend, gets drunk, and then says, you can't drink (do as I say, not as I do mentality).
To this day, my older brother and I both enjoy an occasional drink, but the desire to get falling down drunk has no appeal. I enjoy watching the idiots, not being one. :)
wolfboy69 at August 22, 2008 10:12 AM
I think everyone here is on the same, correct, page. Taken to a logical extreme, the FedNannies would repeal bans on ALL controlled substances.
A colleague once said he was sending his daughter to college and she asked "What will you think if one night I get drunk and puke?" and he said to her "I'll chalk it up to bad parenting."
What a flaming asshole to put that pressure on his kid.
DaveG at August 22, 2008 10:15 AM
My own take is that we insist on conflating eighteen- and nineteen-year-olds with "children," and treating them that way to the extent that we dare.
That, and we still have a hangover from the temperance movement---it did a jim-dandy job of painting alcohol as The Unclean Thing; even after Prohibition was repealed, there was still that frisson of naughtiness about drinking. So we see it as naughty and something that kiddie-winks should be kept well away from..and then wonder why they see it as irresistible forbidden fruit.
Of course, Mencken's quote about schools comes to mind. I don't have it in front of me, but he commented, anent the schools of his day, that it would be hard enough for an adult, with alcohol and cynicism aiding him, to endure them, and that it was torture for kids. Colleges, and schools, haven't changed from that day to this.
Technomad at August 22, 2008 10:25 AM
And then there's me. I got drunk WITH my parents, when I was at a wedding with them, and when I got sick on the way home, my dad stopped the car so I could throw up on the side of the road, and then he laughed at me for overdoing it. I don't think I had a single drink during college, both because I'm not that alcohol driven (although I have wine all the time now...a glass a few times a week, I mean). And then, getting sick drinking combined with it not being some big forbidden deal made it not a big draw for me.
Amy Alkon at August 22, 2008 10:26 AM
> Going from zero responsibility
> to 100% freedom is begging
> for that
I'm reminded of an article (Rolling Stone?) about Harris & Kleybold. In their neighborhood, families lived too far apart for kids to see friends or do social things without being driven to them; there was no public transportation. But Mom had nothing better to do, so she'd taxi the kids around until mid-adolescence. (And presumably smother them in Mom-like conversation at every stoplight.) Then, suddenly, they'd be given a new BMW on their 16th birthday under the assumption that they were finally old enough.... What could go wrong?
I see what Amy's getting at here, and the ninnies are on a rampage, but try to look at the bright side: The reason the drinking age is so high (and enforcement historically so weak) in the US is that we know people are plenty attracted to alcohol on their own. Back in the day, the government wasn't interested in micromanagement. This was admirable. In the same way, a parent can scream "Don't fuck!" at their children without worrying that they'll never get laid. They know the water's on the other side of the dam.
The point is to slow down the onrushing forces until maturity can rise up to manage them. I think this is much more ethically prudent, and certainly more effective, then composing our policies around soap-opera scenarios of emotional manipulation.
The problem is that the ninnies think there's supposed to be some alignment and integration of public policy with the deepest interiors of everyday life. This is not so.
Besides, it's a crapshoot (see Gretch and Tressider, above). Some of its genetics and some of its environment, but that doesn't mean you can take control and deliver a good outcome.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 10:27 AM
Oh, and when I say I got drunk WITH them, they didn't know I was getting drunk, but they were present, and that's why I figured it would be a good time to experiment -- because my dad, who'd always offered us "a taste" of what he was drinking, would be there to take me home if something happened.
Amy Alkon at August 22, 2008 10:27 AM
Amy, I've always thought that Jewish culture was fairly BS-free, particularly compared to Christianality and Islam. Jews love and support their kids and want them to be happy, productive people; not so much mind-fucking. Having been on the inside, do you agree?
DaveG at August 22, 2008 10:51 AM
P.S. I gave my 10-year-old about 8 ounces of beer. I seem to recall he liked it, liked having "Daddy's drink", but that was it, he never asked for any more and I didn't have to lock the fridge. FWIW, the wife and I go through a case of beer per year.
DaveG at August 22, 2008 10:54 AM
> Seeing an alcoholics liver will
> only make some kid say "I BET
> MATT'S LOOKS LIKE THAT
> ALREADY!" followed by
> hilarious laughter.
Gretch, teens are little pricks. It doesn't mean they're not paying attention.
When I was in fifth grade, we did World War Two. It was a grade school operated by a Big Ten university's Education department; They were not fucking around. It was one of the most grueling academic efforts of my life. For about 8 months out of the 9-month-year we studied all the national histories, economic contexts, battles etc... With appropriate emphasis on the bomb and the holocaust. More books than would fit on a shelf, and several weeks worth of films.
So then thirty years later (and forgive me, I told this part here last month) this lady friend and I are going through the Museum of Tolerance down on Pico blvd., and there are these teenagers in our group. And the teens are smirking and making brutally hurtful and insensitive remarks during the presentations about the camps. And I started to get steamed about it, but on the way home my date said something like "Relax, they're teenagers."
The fact that teenagers don't always learn the things you want them to learn as you say them, and then turn to you with eye contact and say "I deeply comprehend , Dear Senior" doesn't mean you haven't done your job or done what's necessary.
Remember Alex in Clockwork Orange? It's not ethical to slam people through a perfectly managed course of education and then be sure they learned just the right lessons... Not even in medicine. Teachers tend to be assholes, and when someone says "My teacher was an asshole", most of us can relate. Society does that for a reason. Human brains are solitary things, and in the end they have to make their own peace with what they find.
(And for the record, I think the impulse to power-slam education is essentially feminine. In dialogs ranging from books, to talk radio, through countless cocktail parties, I've noticed that it's a disproportionate number of women who'll say --eyes drifting away in fantasy-- "Well, I wish we could teach (him/her/them) how it feels ..."
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 10:55 AM
Amy, stop being anecdotal. Maybe --by genetics or by acculturation, who cares which-- you were never going to be an alcoholic anyway.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 11:00 AM
I don't know, we offer sips of whatever we're having if the little 'uns ask. But the thought of drunk (or buzzed) 18, 19, and 20 year olds driving terrifies me. As does the thought of 16 year olds doing it, and 25 year olds. I just think teens tend to be stupid. especially about alcohol.
I have no stats here, and no time to go find them at the moment, but alcohol is involved in a startling # of crashes. And teen drivers are involved in a higher per-teen-capita-rate than older drivers. That's why they have higher insurance. It's common sense, you're new at something, so you're probably not real good at it yet.
I sort of agree with the whole "you can vote, you can go to war, you should be able to drink" thing, but then I think of some freakin' idiotic 18 year olds I know, and the argument looses it's effect. And few teens vote. Maybe say military personnel can drink at 18? Use your military ID? That'd be good motivation for a certain segment of the population to join the military-the segment that probably needs it's discipline the most. Might be a great idea.
momof3 at August 22, 2008 11:00 AM
Amy, stop being anecdotal. Maybe --by genetics or by acculturation, who cares which-- you were never going to be an alcoholic anyway.
Crid, man, stop being a sanctimonious prick. It's Amy's blag, she can be anecdotal if she wants. What are you, drunk? >_O
Flynne at August 22, 2008 11:03 AM
Oooooops! BlOg, not blag - maybe I'm the one who's drunk! +_+
Flynne at August 22, 2008 11:05 AM
> What are you, drunk? >_O
Never, ever, tempt me.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 11:06 AM
Never, ever, tempt me.
I just got out of the shower and I'm wrapped in a towel.
Psych!
Flynne at August 22, 2008 11:11 AM
I know a good number of Europeans, mostly women, from Switzerland (the Italian part), Italy, France, and Spain, and I've talked to many of them about this: they were, the ones I spoke to, raised with a similar approach to alcohol, and did not binge drink either.
Amy Alkon at August 22, 2008 11:12 AM
"newsflash: being a parent means being very uncool; if your kid, never hates you for a moment, you just aren't doing your job" ~T's Grammy
I guess that means I'm doing my job, mine hate me on a regular basis. I tell them M.O.M. stands for "Mean Ole Mom." :D
On topic, I'm glad I have a few years before my kids become teens (my oldest is 9). I don't drink much myself, but I would be willing to let them try it at home if they become curious. At least that way I can moniter their reactions and control their intake.
Sandy at August 22, 2008 11:22 AM
> a good number of Europeans
OK, so it's a really BIG anecdote featuring people with quaint accents.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 11:28 AM
>>Crid, man, stop being a sanctimonious prick.
I'm with the sanctimonious pri- er, the house polecat here.
(Plus, his "tickling the dragon's tail" phrase - of a while back on this very subject - has also stayed with me. Parents should be alert to whiffs of smoke from that cave...)
Jody Tresidder at August 22, 2008 11:32 AM
"Jews love and support their kids and want them to be happy, productive people; not so much mind-fucking." Depends on the sect and cultural origins. I tend to see a very heavy pressure to get married young mainly for the girls. From my experience that tends to screw people up. Parents are more interested on how their child's behavior reflects on them. I see exactly the same thing from ethnics from all over the world. So I'm not sure if it's a jewish thing or not. Hasidim have some very strict beliefs that work very poorly in the US.
vlad at August 22, 2008 11:35 AM
Tressider: Here's the source of the expression. In some tellings of the tale, the ones I prefer, Slotin immediately fell upon the apparatus to protect the others in the room. They really shouldn't have been playing with matches, anyway.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 11:43 AM
> Depends on the sect and
> cultural origins.
Like, yeah. I've had a number of Jewish people tell me that Jewish family life was a multi-millennial starcasting mindfuck of trans-continental grandeur, an organelle-warping transit to adulthood from which no relief could ever be imagined.
Some of 'em were kinda upset about it.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 11:50 AM
>>Jews love and support their kids and want them to be happy, productive people
I'm not sure I've ever known a single Jew with a drinking problem. (I used to ache to be Jewish. So I only went out with Jewish guys for years. Then I finally noticed the stricter sort never took you home to meet their mums after..y'know. Which eventually pissed me off.)
Jody Tresidder at August 22, 2008 12:19 PM
"Okay Jojo, fellow (onceuponatime) Michigander, what part of the Mitten were you in? We know Amy used to live there, and I've had the run of the lower half of the state...just curious. As to the context of this thread, I remember how we had to run for Indiana if we wanted Everclear and Purple Passion. Coors was out for awhile as well. As if legislating will make a difference. Lord knows, we had plenty of pot in Ann Arbor (Hash Bash, anyone?)"
Juliana, I come from a formerly small town about 40 miles from Detroit, (now swallowed up by sprawl). Booze and weed were the drugs of choice.
The problem with an 18 year old drinking age isn't so much the college students, it's the 18 year old high schoolers who buy it for their younger friends. I remember a lot of seniors going out to the liquor store and partying hearty every lunchtime.
In those days you could go to school drunk and/or stoned, drink in the parking lot and smoke weed in the smoking area and no one gave a damn. Not like now when honor students get expelled for taking an Advil. On the other hand, we didn't have school shootings - everyone was too mellowed out by the weed.
JoJo at August 22, 2008 1:09 PM
I had sips of beer and wine and the hard stuff all the time as a kid and have no problems with booze. If course, I got those sips from my older sister, who was a hardcore alcoholic who even slipped me a 'lude when I was 2. So maybe this isn't the best example.
MonicaP at August 22, 2008 1:19 PM
The drinking age at all U.S. military bases was 18, until Congress & the DOD caved in to the relentless lobbying of the MADD Nazis. Strangely enough, the drinking age at overseas bases is still 18. So if you're a soldier stationed overseas, you're mature enough to die for your country AND have a beer, but if you're in the U.S.A., you'll have to die sober. Yes, it's utterly ludicrous, but it's also a reminder that drinking age laws (just about all laws, come to think of it) are not made by rational, reasonable people, but by politicians.
Martin at August 22, 2008 1:34 PM
> even slipped me a 'lude
> when I was 2.
Jesus Fuck.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 1:38 PM
I have always operated on the premise that nearly all education for kids comes in the home from the parents. That includes drivers education.
The two kids under my influence both drove over 1,000 miles before driver's education. On rural roads; city streets; Interstates; daytime; night; rain; ice and snow.
I did a very gradual program. First day consisted of going to my employer's large parking lot; learning how to adjust everything. Then, move from one parking slot to another, going forward, then backing up. Then, in a big circle, and end up in a parking stall again. And, each time, get out and look at car alignment. That gave them confidence without stress.
Eventually, quiet streets for a few blocks.
They were never 'tested' during the early stages.
They are both extremely competent drivers, and either can get in a car and go on a 1500 mile trip with no worries.
I always told them driving is a person's second biggest responsibility, right after their fertility.
I remember when my daughter was 24, she was moving across the US to teach, and I was accompanying her to get her settled in. When we got to Dallas, I admitted the traffic was too much for me, and asked her to drive. It was a big day for both of us.
Strangely, now, 16 years later, I have driven so much across the country in retirement that same trip through Dallas would not especially bother me.
irlandes at August 22, 2008 2:55 PM
I don't remember ever being "not" allowed to have wine. As soon as I asked for a sip, at dinner parties or whatever, I was allowed to have one. Personally, I think the flavor of alcohol is absolutely foul. So I never got into it.It never was forbidden fruit, and I never felt like I had to drink it to be rebellious, so I'm not much of a drinker. I've been drunk once or twice, and I like the buzz, but hate having to drink the stuff to get there.
I think it's because I was allowed a sip when I was very young, at the age where bitter things are totally unpalatable, and it left me with a very negative impression.
NicoleK at August 22, 2008 6:02 PM
I don't understand why you guys are pretending these early experiences are so important. There are a lot of things that people don't get a taste for until they've been at it for awhile. Hell, many people don't much like sex in the early times. We shouldn't pretend a second-grader's appreciation of behavioral science can lead the way here.
The auto thing is a nice example. If you have an accident in your mid fifties, does that mean your driver's ed teacher fucked up thirty years earlier? Do you really think being precious about early exposures to inebrients can inoculate someone for a lifetime?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 22, 2008 7:54 PM
Hey, Kim! I hope to hell you don't rely on public transportation. The new gov turning out to be a freaking nightmare or what? He hasn't a clue in his freaking head. Though, his being a politian and Spitzer's second in command, I don't know why this should surprise me...
momof3, you freaking kidding me, what kind of sick discriminatory practice is that? You're an adult, we can charge you for a crime, obligate you to a contract, let you marry and vote but if you want to freaking have a beer, you'd damned well better sign away your life and your rights to the military and agree to be one of their thugs marching around the world telling everyone by force they'd better be just like the good ole US of A? Don't think beer's something worth risking life/limb for? Guess you didn't want it bad enough? Absurd.
Crid, what the hell's wrong with anedotes? No, they do not alone an argument make. But they support or disclaim an argument and they certainly make the conversation more interesting. I am so sick of "hearing" people say on the internet, don't use anedoctal evidence when someone has had or knows someone who has had a personal experience that relates. Yes, it is the internet but we all know it is and can certainly factor in that the poster might just be making it up out of whole cloth. Um, kind of the same way, we can when discussing shit in the real world.
T's Grammy at August 23, 2008 10:30 AM
My girls learned to drink with Mom and Dad while at home or frequenting clubs in Europe, Asia and Latin America. Always were they supervised by the people who know and care for them best. Little Bit just moved on campus today (she's been in college a year but just turned 17 and we were ready for a quiet house) and even though there's "zero tolerance" for on campus drinking, we don't anticipate a problem for her. There is simply no mystery and appeal in boozing for people who hit their first discotheque in Prague at 14.
miche at August 24, 2008 5:20 PM
> simply no mystery and appeal
"simply"?
> their first discotheque in
> Prague at 14
Everyone adores the Czech Republic, but I'd bet there's more aggressive temptation in the lobby bar of the Tulsa Sheraton at 10pm on a random Saturday than you'll find in Prague all year long. They used to be vaguely commie. Now they're a proud member of the EU, i.e., Technocracy Central. Where are their dangerous impulses?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 24, 2008 10:09 PM
Hey Daryl, I just generalize here a little bit, for the sake of those who aren't all that interested in Canada. Since I live in ONTARIO, it is to that province's laws I am referring.
Chrissy at August 29, 2008 8:19 AM
I was raised by German immigrants. Starting at age 8 or so, at ALL holidays, I was given a small glass of white wine (Riesling of course and I'm sure it was good wine) to drink with the meal. It was disgusting. I was allowed to only take one sip. I still dislike wine. I didn't drink at all until in my late 30s and only rarely have a nice glass of beer, or a bloody mary like once a year.
MonicaM at August 29, 2008 10:31 AM
When I was young, I believed that our cultures were a rather close, but as I have explained on my blog, there is a huge difference when it comes to alcohol.
Here in Denmark youth can purchase alcohol on their own once they turn 16. The state gives them a ID-card so they can prove their age in shops. Also parents introduce their child to alcohol during the confirmation as it has been a tradition for more than 200 years.
We can see that this approach save lives. The youth are very aware of the dangers once they can drive a car and as result of this we have very few cases of DUI if you compare it to the US.
Our biggest problem right now are youth who choose not to drink for religious reasons. Due to their decision they are kept out of our social circles because they are a potential threat. If you ask your service men in Iraq if they ever have seen a drunk suicide bomber their answer would be no. We don't like to be blown to pieces either so we stay away from sober youth and right now it is also the same circle who are conducting drive-by shootings in Copenhagen.
Some of this fraction who don't to be violent choose to enter our continuation schools called "efterskole" in Denmark - schools we use instead of juvenile detention centers voluntary. They cannot cope with freedom and the right to choose their path in life.
I simply don't understand why a state can have a social host law and such a high agelimit for alcohol consumption when we knows what makes our country safe.
JanK
at February 5, 2009 12:29 AM
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