Ever Heard Of Community College?
A kid named Zoe Mendelson writes in the LA Times that she's going to Barnard on a full scholarship -- because her parents, most puzzlingly, have "virtually no income":
I live with my mom, who is a full-time student; my dad teaches part time. Although I'd like to think my scholarship is merit-based, were my parents more comfortably middle class, I would not have been so fortunate. And without a scholarship, there's no way I could afford a school such as Barnard.The situation is more complicated for my friend E.G., who will be a freshman at his first-choice school this fall, Johns Hopkins University. He was at my house when his dad text-messaged me, asking that I pass along that his ACT score had come -- 34 out of a perfect 36. Last year, he competed in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a project in which he figured out how to extract a chemical from sassafras root that treats parasites in beehives and could prevent colony collapse disorder.
His parents met in South Korea, where his father was based during his U.S. military service. E.G.'s mom is an overnight supervisor for Kmart, and his dad is a civil engineer working with flood relief/recovery operations in the Air National Guard. This is information that he has volunteered to me proudly.
E.G. got some scholarship money, but he is having trouble coming up with his share of the costs for one year -- $30,875 -- because, as his dad put it, his family is "in the nether region." Their household income is too much to qualify for substantial financial aid but not enough to pay that amount. In other words, being middle class makes it nearly impossible to afford the college of your choice, even if you get in.
Oh, boohoo, he might have to go to UCLA and live at home to save money. The horror! The horror! Mendelson continues:
Sure, E.G. could accept one of his more lucrative scholarship offers at another school. But E.G. wants the best, and suggesting that all brilliant middle-class kids should just go to the schools they can afford undermines the meritocracy that we claim as a nation. Those worthy of the best are not the richest or the poorest but the brightest.
There are loads and loads of kids who are "the best." Some of them even go to Santa Monica college the first two years to save money. Here's the fee list at SMC:
Fall 2008 Semester: $20.00 per unit enrollment fee (Subject to Change); plus $32.00 Student Services (includes, $14.00 Health fee; $13.00 I.D. card; $19.00 Associated Student fee). Non Resident tuition is $195.00 for F1 students, and $164.00 for domestic non-residents. A parking decal for the main campus costs $85.
Perhaps Zoe's family would've had more money to send her to school if they hadn't sent her to China -- or did somebody else fund that, too?
Meanwhile, what about the hardworking middle-class parents who don't have tales of woe? Oh...I guess they send their kids to college the old-fashioned way: they pay for it.
What kind of ideas are we putting into kids' heads these days? You have to go to Barnard? You should be welcomed into Johns Hopkins? Even with 1600 SAT and 36 ACT, I'm not sure where the entitlement comes from.
Now, by way of background, I got lucky. Twenty-five years ago, the military offered to pay for my school (I'm a midwesterner, and went to a Big 10 school). Had they not done, I would have wound up at Ohio State or commuted to the local university, which is inexpensive and perfectly good. Lots of my classmates went there, and while they might have wished for a fancier school, they left the local campus with very serviceable educations and got good jobs.
And anyway, I'm not sure what you really get for your money by going to Barnard or Johns Hopkins. I suspect going to a fancy school is a little like owning a Mercedes: pull the hood ornament off, and it's not all that different from my Hyundai.
Enough of my bloviating now. Please feel free to rip me six ways from Sunday...
old rpm daddy at August 25, 2008 4:52 AM
No ripping from this quarter, old rpm daddy, my girls are going to have to go locally for the first two years or get scholarships of their own. Ex's family will be of no help either. He just moved back home (at the age of 39) because "it's cheaper", and his father is back in the hospital for "testing". Something to do with his heart. Daughter #1 may be able to get some kind of musical scholarship; #2 might not. We'll see.
Flynne at August 25, 2008 5:33 AM
They should be grateful that they get to go to college at all! Can't go to Johns Hopkins, go to a "lesser" college? That's his hardship? Instead of just plain not even getting the opportunity at all?
I hope to hell he doesn't get in. Here's a thought, let mom and dad tighten their belts if they think it worth it to see their son graduate with the designer name and get a job yourself to supplement what they can't/won't.
Has the concept of working your way through college totally disappeared? I know it hasn't because I've known several kids who are doing just that. Granted the State U. If they think SUNYA's worth it, why does this privileged asshole not find a college with the prestige of Johns Hopkins?
Frankly, if he's not willing to work his way through, he doesn't deserve the diploma. I've no sympathy.
T's Grammy at August 25, 2008 5:34 AM
Get your BA or BS anywhere. What matters is where you attend graduate school.
Roger at August 25, 2008 5:47 AM
I went to a state university auxiliary campus for the first two years because I didn't qualify for any financial aid, even loans.
Took a year off, then I finally qualified for loans, and went to a private university to finish off my degree. Took me 10 years to pay it off.
Graduate school is overrated. Unless you're going into medicine or the hard sciences, it's useless.
The only reason these kids "need" to get into Barnard or Johns-Hopkins is because they want the fancy name on the skin. Networking.
In other words, you're paying 30 grand a year not for an education, but for a contact list.
brian at August 25, 2008 5:55 AM
"Get your BA or BS anywhere. What matters is where you attend graduate school." I agree with that. My first sheep skin was little more than spare ass wipes at about 120k and 4 years wasted.
Grad school was different ,however I snuck into grad through a back door. Having a prestigious name on you transcript does help getting in normally.
As far as E.G. if his parents are that concerned with helping him they can cosign a federal secured loan and have him pay it off when he graduates. Your income will actually help you get one of these, as long as the parents credit isn't shot.
vlad at August 25, 2008 6:55 AM
Here's another thing: Regarding undergrad degrees, is there a definite, direct correlation between school cost and post-graduation earning power? If somebody doesn't shell out for your school for you, then you or your family are stuck borrowing money. I don't know, but it would seem to me that increased earning power probably doesn't track linearly with the cost or prestige of the school attended. Eventually, the added cost won't generate earnings necessary to pay off the loan. If that's true, then borrowing to attend a very expensive school may actually be counterproductive! As I said, I don't really know. Any thoughts?
old rpm daddy at August 25, 2008 7:12 AM
ORD -
It's a game of numbers. Not everyone who graduates from Yale Law or Harvard Med is going to end up in the 7 figure club. In fact, most of them are going to end up in whatever their profession's equivalent of a cube farm is.
How much would it suck to graduate Yale Law in the bottom third of the class and end up a corporate attorney in some $15 million company making under 6 figures?
Because whether you graduate at the top or bottom of the class, you still pay the same tuition.
Although there is something to be said for the political aspirations of the bottom third of the Yale Law class. :)
brian at August 25, 2008 7:21 AM
"Regarding undergrad degrees, is there a definite, direct correlation between school cost and post-graduation earning power?" Depends on the school and the degree. There are also schools that are far removed from the top 10 even that are the best in their respective fields. Webb Institute of Naval Architecture is the best in it's field but that's all it does so it ranks relatively low on the scale. One of the colleges in Hawaii has the best volcanology degree in the US (probably the world) but other wise is rated as a party school.
The degree makes a huge difference to. An art history degree is not going to pay for itself at a high cost prestigious school, if you actually go into art history. An MBA from Harvard Business or MIT Sloan will pay for itself very quickly. An MA in history from MIT or Harvard will not pay for itself in any thing approaching a reasonable time, again if you pursue history as your career.
vlad at August 25, 2008 7:26 AM
The other thing about degree prestige is that it's only going to help you as far as getting that first job. After that it's still up to you to kick ass or get yours kicked. Your ability and drive will determine your rise to the top far better than your degree, unless your in one of those firms that requires a top 10% from Harvard law to become partner. In that case why are you at that firm if you know you'll never make partner? The 7 figure club is mainly for firm senior partners or top lever surgeons both of which you can become even if you graduate dead last from Shoody legal U or Spit in cup medical schools. Also entrepreneurs and business builder (Bill Gates springs to mind) who may have no degree.
vlad at August 25, 2008 7:37 AM
Hilariously, some vindictive woman who wrote me about her novelist ex-husband said she wanted to expose that he really didn't graduate from college, but said he did on his bio and C.V.
She took great pleasure in how devastated she thought his mother would be.
Nasty witch. I apparently convinced her not to spill, and wrote back something along the lines of: If he's a surgeon, I care a great deal that he's lying about graduating from med school. But a novelist? Why should we care?
Amy Alkon at August 25, 2008 8:13 AM
God, she's definitely a wingnut in training. From her profile: "the only thing I'm interested in is being a good American". I think she's interested in her entitlement to a free premium education. At least a private institution is paying for it and not our taxes. Based on her school funding, she probably is bright and a hard worker. But she should be very thankful for an opportunity that obviously not everyone is afforded (the subject of the article). How exclusive would that contact list be if everbody got to Barnard?
Still, she is entitled to speak her mind, just as I am entled to offer my opinion on the situation. She ought to be blogging more about how grateful she is to be in America, as an American, and for the opportunities she is being afforded here. Thanks to America, she is attending an expensive private university, all bills paid, and not walking the streets of China/Southeast Asia wearing a t-shirt that says 'me fukki sukki, me luv u long time'.
(that'll get the hate mail rolling, but somewhere Stanley Kubrick is laughing his ass off.)
Meritocracy? I had to google that shit. I just love those young idealists. But the quicker they get out of the classroom and into society to work for a living, the better off we are as a country. A Federal Republic, if memory serves.
Sterling at August 25, 2008 8:13 AM
"Here's another thing: Regarding undergrad degrees, is there a definite, direct correlation between school cost and post-graduation earning power?"
An article in "The Chronicle of Higher Education" reported a study that found income correlated with the most prestigious school where a student was *accepted*, whether or not the student actually attended that school. Apparently the qualifications required for getting accepted--intelligence, family connections, ambition, drive, determination--are responsible for any income disparities.
There is another reason for wanting to attend a top-rated university that I am surprised no one has mentioned yet: pure intellectual stimulation. One of my college classmates from Arkansas Tech went to Harvard for grad school. Later he told me what a pleasure it was to be able to stop anyone he saw on a stroll across campus and expect to enjoy the kind of conversation he could have with only a dozen or so at our little cow college.
I'm nowhere near in his league intellectually, but still, I went on to grad school (U of Florida) for the same reason he dit: to be able to hang around a college for my working life. The conversations in both grad school and in the school where I taught were fun, too, just as I hoped.
Just like high income, though, it is not necessary to attend college to enjoy an intellectual life. Two of the best conversationalists I have ever known were a cabinet maker and a welder.
Axman at August 25, 2008 8:42 AM
The writer's whole family is supported by a part-time job because the mom chooses to be a full-time student and the dad chooses to only work part-time. And because of these rather unlucrative decisions, their kid gets a free ride to college? Yet because his friend E.C.'s parents both choose to work (although not at particularly great-paying jobs) their brilliant kid doesn't get squat?
When my parents chose to have children, they decided they wanted my mom to be able to stay home with the kids full-time. They realized they couldn't afford to do this with a mortgage payment, so before having kids, they both worked two jobs until they had their house paid off. Then my mom quit working and stayed home with the kids, and my dad supported us on a single paycheck, although it was an extremely tight squeeze.
When the time came for me to start looking at colleges, I didn't even qualify for a loan. (Forget grants altogether - I couldn't even get a student loan, since guaranteed student loans were no longer guaranteed by then.) My parents simply "made too much money," and the vast majority of financial aid was "need"-based. (The rest of it was race-based.) It did seem as though my parents were being punished for making prudent decisions. If I'd been a welfare ho popping out a litter of kids, you can bet I would have had no trouble paying for college with all the money the government would have been throwing at me.
I can see this guy's point. But I'm glad this discussion has moved past the idiocy of the current financial aid situation and gotten to the important stuff. With the K-12 education system sucking as much as it currently does, a high school diploma is pretty much worthless, so the college degree has become the new high school diploma. Yet the cost of these degrees is skyrocketing, and the value of them is plummeting. The whole system is screwed, never mind how you pay for it.
Pirate Jo at August 25, 2008 9:10 AM
Great points, Pirate Jo. I'm reminded of the woman in Dana Point who home-schooled her kids, but told them not to play roughly because the family couldn't afford health insurance. Of course, all she'd have to do to get them health insurance is send them to public school and work at Starbucks 20 hours a week.
I'm so sorry if mummy isn't fulfilled, but once you have kids, you don't get to be a full-time student and have your kid live on almost no income. It's just wrong.
I have a fun, cool job I love because I don't have kids. I'm basically middle-class in terms of my income. If I had kids, I'd have to get a real job, someplace not so much fun, like at a corporation, and do as I'm told. And that's why I don't have kids. Among other reasons.
By the way, I almost quit college. I learn on my own just fine, and read books people probably only read in their college courses. (Right now, I'm reading and loving Lisa Zunshine's very interesting new book, Strange Concepts and the Stories They Make Possible: Cognition, Culture, Narrative).
Oh yeah, and I ended up finishing my last year of college and graduating because I realize that people are prejudiced in thinking you're somehow more something-or-other if you have a college degree. Of course, more poor and more cirrhotic, in a lot of cases, is all it amounts to.
Amy Alkon at August 25, 2008 9:53 AM
Pirate Jo, too true. I also think the professionalization of "Human Resources" has done lots of damage. There's a tension between how hiring managers evaluate job-seekers and how HR evaluates them.
HR seems to be an absurd attempt to separate personnel selection from leadership. That's clearly a mistake.
The way companies select personnel is also flawed. Since HR are unable to evaluate the experience of most job-seekers, paper qualifications become very important. The hiring manager, who can evaluate experience, will never see a resume without a degree. An Ivy League degree will make it through HR more easily.
Ivy League degrees won't help with most hiring managers who will want to know what you can do. Ivy League degrees will help you with HR which only cares about where you've been.
I think we are degree crazy in this country. First, think about what an undergraduate major mean: nothing. A major means you have 30 hours of study in a subject. That works out to less than one semester of full time work. A degree was never intended to certify skill or competence in a specific major. It was intended to certify that the degree holder is an independent learner. Hence, the name 'Bachelors Degree.' If you have a bachelors degree, and you have to get a teacher to learn a general subject --- then your degree was a sham. You should have learned how to learn a subject independently.
Polytechnic certificates are what certify that you can do things in a certain field. We've made universities into polytechnics and polytechnics into universities. Dumb.
I can't understand why most jobs require a degree these days. I can't even understand why law school is much longer than one year or even one semester.
Jeff at August 25, 2008 9:55 AM
Roger is right, graduate school is where it's at. On a resume, it's the only one that matters. I've known several people who went to a cc for their associates, then went to a state school and then got into a really good graduate school. Hell, I had a teacher who took one class at Berkeley and did an internship there for one semester and never had problems finding a job because the only thing prospective employers looked at was the school name, not how long she attended.
vlad, the best school in the world for volcanology is University of Hawaii Hilo on the Big Island. That's because most of the world's best volcanologists(is that right?) live and teach there. Also, one of the best nursing programs in the nation is at Maui Community College. Yes, a community college. It always had a year or more waiting list just for people to be considered.
I think this girl sounds like an elitist in training, quite honestly.
maureen at August 25, 2008 10:04 AM
Jeff, you are singing my song when it comes to H.R. departments and the hiring process. Word!!
The way it was always explained to me, having a college degree "opens a lot of doors," which is the optimistic way of putting it. When you've had some experience in the world of corporate cube farms, you realize those doors aren't the ones you really want to open anyway. But then, when you're young and just starting out, with no experience under your belt, you have to GET that experience somewhere. Hence, your degree opens lots of doors. You have to start somewhere, yet there is such a big part of it that leaves a bad taste in my mouth, all that jumping through hoops.
You guys tell me: Does proving that you can jump through the necessary hoops say something good about a person, or something bad? If the hoops are an expensive waste of time, it almost says something bad, in my view. It says, "Will play by the rules, even if the rules are stupid." Then again, isn't that what makes a person "fit in" at most big companies? Ugh ... No answers here, just things that make me think.
Pirate Jo at August 25, 2008 10:20 AM
Quoth the Axman (25 Aug, 8:42 AM): "An article in "The Chronicle of Higher Education" reported a study that found income correlated with the most prestigious school where a student was *accepted*, whether or not the student actually attended that school."
Now that's interesting! I wonder what variables they used in their study? I wonder how they quantified school prestige, student ambition, etc. I'm not knocking the study, mind you, but I'm a bit of a closet regressions freak, and should probably seek professional help. Or maybe I ought to just read the study for myself.
old rpm daddy at August 25, 2008 10:30 AM
"Does proving that you can jump through the necessary hoops say something good about a person, or something bad?" Depending on your degree it shows a certain level of staying power. The ability to take the good with the bad and diversify your skill set. There will always be rules that one thinks is stupid in any field. For me it was always Biz speak. "Opertunities and endevoures(sp) of great potential" instead of "Hey dude if we work together we can both make shit loads of money, here's how..."
Some level of willingness to work with a given frame work makes you more suitable for corporate life. Even for entrepreneurs the right sheep skin (or pedigree) makes you more desirable on both an intellectual and gut instinct level. I don't agree with the system in this way but it's what I have seen.
vlad at August 25, 2008 11:31 AM
Nixon went to Whittier; worked out for him. (Not so well for the rest of us.)
Wanting to get into big colleges is more about rubbing elbows with rich or otherwise-connected students than anything else. It's certainly not about doing challenging work... You can find that anywhere. Raise a palm and count with your fingers: How many times have you heard a student say "That campus has wonderful faculty...."?
Favorite exchange from the movie Risky Business:
| HARDWORKING PROSTITUTE:
| So, how are we doing?
|
| TEENAGE PROTAGONIST:
| Looks like University of Illinois!
|
I loved that. The movie lifts its skirt over its head and shows us that the stakes in this drama were always incredibly low, and trusts that we're still going to care enough to wait and see how it ends.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 25, 2008 11:48 AM
They Let You Pay Them. It Doesn't Mean They Are Worth It.
See more Here
Andrew Garland at August 25, 2008 12:29 PM
"I realize that people are prejudiced in thinking you're somehow more something-or-other if you have a college degree. Of course, more poor and more cirrhotic, in a lot of cases, is all it amounts to."
Exactly! I think the "more something-or-other" means "having parents who can afford to send you to drinking camp for four years."
Pirate Jo at August 25, 2008 12:31 PM
College is an Expensive IQ Test
They Let You Pay Them.
It Doesn't Mean They Are Worth It.
See more at http://easyopinions.blogspot.com/2008/07/college-is-expensive-iq-test.html
Andrew Garland at August 25, 2008 12:32 PM
I think entitlement has a great deal to do with attitudes like this, and also with a whole host of problems my generation is encountering (and causing). From birth, our every smallest accomplishment has been exaggeratedly applauded and rewarded as if we were being housebroken. Now, when it comes to real life, my peers do anything remotely positive and then look wildly about, "Where's my cookie? My praise? Oh no! No validation! Waahhhhhh!"
We are all "special" and we need to be praised and petted and celebrated at every step. The concept of not getting everything we want is absolutely foreign. In a few of us, this has produced a tendency toward persistence and hard work, but in most it has produced an utter bafflement when met with less than ideal circumstances.
Out of my peers at school, I'm the only one I know paying my own way, and one of the few with a job. I've been asked if I got into Stanford, USC, etc., and was met with confusion when I said I didn't apply because I could never afford to go. Applying anyway would have been a vanity move, and an expensive one at that, since applications cost anywhere from $50 to $100.
All I can say is that I feel sorry for my generations new bosses and coworkers when they finish school. I have trouble even being friends with them because they require constant validation. I can only imagine the outrage when they discover sometimes they must work overtime!
Christina at August 25, 2008 2:17 PM
I almost didn't post a comment on this thread. I don't feel qualified to discuss the merits of different colleges, considering that I don't have any kind of college degree myself.
Then Amy posted this: "I'm so sorry if mummy isn't fulfilled, but once you have kids, you don't get to be a full-time student and have your kid live on almost no income. It's just wrong."
Now, don't get me wrong, I think that the girl who wrote the original piece sounds like she's in it for all she can get, but that doesn't necessarily mean that her mother is only a full-time student so she can feel "fulfilled."
Before I became a single mom, I was working part-time in a retail store. Retail is pretty much the only thing I have experience in, and so it was what I was most comfortable doing. Needless to say, when the smoke cleared upon the wreckage of my marriage, I knew that part-time wasn't going to put food on the table. I applied for assistance (THE single most humiliating thing I've ever had to do), and enrolled in college full time (I might add that the only college in my town is a community college). I didn't become a full-time college student to feel "fulfilled." I became one so I could learn the skills needed to make a better life for my kids. I later had to cut back on my college time because working, going to school, and doing homework was too stressful and taking too much time away from my kids.
I still intend to get my degree, but wasn't willing to wait until I had it before I got a better job. Retail wasn't working, so I did something else. The something else enabled me to get off of assistance, but the consequence is that my degree has been put on hold.
Before anybody screams at me, I'm not bucking for sympathy. I know that if I had gone to college right out of high school I wouldn't have been in that posistion in the first place. I'm merely attempting to show a different way to look at the spoiled little girl's mom.
Sandy at August 25, 2008 2:24 PM
Didn't read the responses, someone prolly already said this, but:
Where you went to school ceases to matter at about the moment the ink dries on your diploma. Yes, you should try to go somewhere you think you'll enjoy and benefit from, but this child should get a clue.
DaveG at August 25, 2008 3:31 PM
As someone who recently ('05) graduated from a relatively presitgious school and grew up in a nice middle to upper middle class suburb, I have to admit I have a little bit more sympathy for this girl. And here's why:
Nobody tells you that it rarely freaking matters.
It's become so competitive to get into and go to the "best" college you get into, nobody in these communities ever tell kids that maybe it's not the best idea to go into a huge amount of debt. I know plenty of kids who were pressured into going to schools they couldn't really afford to go to and would have been much better off going to the cheaper state school. Kids in my school were crushed not get into the tippy top schools, even though they were bright and had good futures ahead of them. It's like you were some kind of failure.
Only after graduating did I realize that where I went to school barely matters and that I'd pretty much been sold a bunch of bs, by a lot of my teachers and guidance counselors.
So as easy as it is to pick apart her arguments, it's a little different when you're 18 and you've been conditioned to believe that if you don't go the BEST school you're life is going to be a miserable failure.
flighty at August 25, 2008 5:27 PM
"all bills paid, and not walking the streets of China/Southeast Asia wearing a t-shirt that says 'me fukki sukki, me luv u long time'."
Do you know how to say this in Chinese? I would like to know as given the current fragile economy we are in, my ability to speak that in Chinese will help me to pay my sub prime mortgage in the next few years.
If you don't know how to say it, you might want to learn. It might become handy.
Chang at August 25, 2008 5:40 PM
Sandy,
Where were your parents while you were being misled?
DaveG at August 25, 2008 5:54 PM
Christina and flighty, I appreciate your comments - it is nice to hear input from younger people who are in the middle of this.
Christina's comment, "I've been asked if I got into Stanford, USC, etc., and was met with confusion when I said I didn't apply because I could never afford to go," made me stop and think two things. One, she has a great head on her shoulders. Two, does everyone in high school really think they have to be accepted at Stanford to ever amount to anything in life? Then flighty's comment came along and shed more light on that for me.
Pirate Jo at August 25, 2008 7:04 PM
Did any of you follow Andrew Garland's link, and pick up on this?
"The landmark case was Griggs v. Duke Power Co. (1971). A black coal miner claimed discrimination because his employer required a high-school diploma and an intelligence test as prerequisites for promotion to a more skilled position. The court ruled 8-0 in the miner's favor. "Good intent or absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures or testing mechanisms that operate as 'built-in headwinds' for minority groups," Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote."
Whoa, hang on a second. Did Chief Justice Warren Burger just say that IQ tests discriminate against minorities, in this case black people? In other words, that black people have low IQs? Ho.Lee.Shit. And this kind of crap is allowed to stand, shape future policies, and create ridiculous workarounds in our society like this one?
I know, I know, Tressider is just going to tell me I'm easily shocked. ;-)
Pirate Jo at August 25, 2008 7:08 PM
Funny. I never graduated from college, although I did spend an inordinate amount of time putting my first husband through undergrad and law school while raising three kids. I have two years of college and a continuing ed paralegal certificate from George Washington University which I finished when I was 31.
After my divorce and against my better judgment I got into legal work. At first the pay stunk, but once I started working as a secretary for the AM Law 100 firms in DC back in the late 80's my income shot way up because of OT. Then after about 15 years I started doing paralegal work because of the technological changes. Now I can write my own ticket even though I'm over 50. If I don't break into the 6 figure income range this year I'll come close, and most definitely will next year. I'm I have consistently made as much or more money than my ex, plus I have benefits, which he has to pay himself as a solo practitioner.
How come? Its not because of my collegiate pedigree, its because of my working one, with all those years in DC working in international law firms. Three years ago, when I looked for a new position here in LA I went on 4 interviews and had 4 offers - two from NYC based firms, one Chicago based firm and one CA firm. My income has doubled in the last six years when I started working in LA. I've had three promotions in under three years. Plus I don't have the pressure of the young lawyers who have to make the up or out decision in the first 10 years of their career (more often than not its made for them and its rare that they make partner) and I skipped the six-figure student loans.
As I once said in a meeting of social workers working with welfare clients, it wasn't so much the education as it was the experience that put me ahead.
Life is a journey, not a sprint that's won or lost by the time you hit 25.
calm water at August 25, 2008 8:27 PM
There is another reason for wanting to attend a top-rated university that I am surprised no one has mentioned yet: pure intellectual stimulation.
Yep. There is a difference - not in the sense that there are no intelligent, stimulating people at non-name schools, but in the sense that the proportion is much higher at name schools. To paraphrase a friend of mine who had attended both "name" schools and state-type schools: At "name" schools, you typically have to look hard to find someone who *isn't* interesting.
Going to a well-known school for your undergrad degree does pay off in recognition over the long term. Every single person who has ever interviewed me for any type of job has mentioned my undergrad school - which I attended no little time ago - within the first five minutes. That having been said, if you're fairly sure that you want to go to business, law or medical school, I'd also advise focusing on the quality of your grad school rather than your undergrad.
Also: While I am not overflowing with sympathy for this girl, I do think there is a valid point here - namely, that decades of federal largesse and the encouragement of the growth of the student loan industry has, in fact, created an untenable situation, in which colleges jack up tuition at a rate far faster than inflation often in order to fund things not substantially increasing the value of the education given. I'm not in favor of making college free, but I do see why some of the most expensive schools have started making attendance free for kids with parents under a certain income level (a level in the very low six figures, in some cases).
However, having said that, I feel that I should point out that most CEOs did NOT graduate from "name" schools. Not that being a CEO is the be-all and end-all of life, but people who feel sufficiently motivated can and often do eat the lunches of people who feel that their background makes them unstoppable. I can think of no story more quintessentially American than that of the CEO who went to state schools for his undergrad and grad degrees telling his Yale-educated flunkie that he wants a venti half-caf latte with two extra squirts of syrup.
marion at August 25, 2008 9:11 PM
> There is a difference - not in the
> sense that there are no intelligent,
> stimulating people at non-name
> schools, but in the sense that the
> proportion is much higher at name
> schools
Homey. Please.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 25, 2008 10:58 PM
Crid, you possess a wonderful economy of expression. I'm envious.
Jeff at August 25, 2008 11:11 PM
Flighty (25 Aug, 5:27 PM), that's exactly what I was talking about in my first post (25 Aug, 4:52 AM) when I wondered what kind of ideas we were putting in kids heads these days.
And I don't claim to be some kind of innocent. Back in 05, my eldest was thrilled to get into a fairly exclusive Lutheran school in the southwestern part of the state. I was thrilled, too. And even though the school came through with considerable financial aid, we still had to borrow a nice chunk o' dough to pay for the first year. My wife was leery. Our eldest, while intelligent, lasted exactly one semester at the school. Community college surely would have been the better bet, at least to start with, and a lot cheaper, too. I guess I bought into the idea that the expensive, exclusive school was somehow necessary. We've got two more kids to go, and I hope we've learned our lesson.
A side note: one of our kid's contemporaries finished his BA in political science at the very school our kid left, incurring considerable debt along the way. He's said to be doing very nicely working at the local Target.
old rpm daddy at August 26, 2008 5:00 AM
Sorry, Crid. Talk to someone who's attended one of the top 15 schools and has attended a perfectly decent school that wasn't in that category, and he or she will tell you the exact same thing.
That doesn't mean you can't get a great education at a state school, or at a community college, or at one of the other no-name schools. You might, in fact, get an even better one because you feel more motivated to succeed. People who've graduated from schools many of us have never heard of certainly end up running large chunks of the business world. But there is a difference in the default experience. It's not just the high cost and the high profile.
marion at August 26, 2008 5:01 AM
Sandy, this girls mother has been a full time student for her dughters whole life.
You went to school after your marrige ended to get a better job - she goes for fun
See the difference?
lujlp at August 26, 2008 5:05 AM
"Life is a journey, not a sprint that's won or lost by the time you hit 25."
"If I don't break into the 6 figure income range this year I'll come close, and most definitely will next year." Yes but making near six figures at less than 30 is a hell of a lot nicer than getting there at near 50. BTW my wife has her MS as well in psych and making about the same. So the right education mixed with the right person can vastly accelerate your career. It also really helps if you bumbed around a little bit and found what you like doing. We both lucked out in that what we like doing pays well and requires an MS/MA.
"I'm I have consistently made as much or more money than my ex, plus I have benefits, which he has to pay himself as a solo practitioner." If he's an attorney with 15 years plus experience and he's making less than six figs he's either inept or trying to duck support payments, possibly working in a very low profit portion of law for personal reasons.
"You went to school after your marrige ended to get a better job - she goes for fun" We don't know that, she said full time student not permanent student. The dad only teaching part time sounds kind of screwy though.
vlad at August 26, 2008 5:41 AM
The dad only teaching part time sounds kind of screwy though.
Sorry, but when you have a kid, you don't get to teach part-time. Or be a dilettante if that's what the mother is up to.
Amy Alkon at August 26, 2008 5:56 AM
Amy: That's what I meant. She maybe a full time student trying to further her career quickly, she may also be a dilettante. Him working part time as a teacher is bad any way you look at it. Unless he's disabled and can't work more, might be why moms going to school.
vlad at August 26, 2008 6:00 AM
This is my morning to agree with Crid, apparently.
I'll second that homey, please. What kind of blatant snobbery is that? I've worked at one State University in high school and living in Albany means living around a lot of SUNY students. I was also involved in the Green Party here for a while as were many of them (it was mostly them and us aging baby boomers, all of us pretty much hippy dippy, weirdly a gap of no one in their 30's) so I've had a lot of convo with State University students and either I'm dumb (shut up) or they're every bit as smart because I've had some pretty damned intelligent conversation with them.
Of course, the students at SUNY, and certainly Green Party types, are the ones I mentioned before willing to work their way through school and really earn that diploma instead of having it handed to them on a silver platter. In other words, maybe they weren't at an Ivy League school because of situations like EG's.
T's Grammy at August 26, 2008 6:56 AM
Yep, my middle class parents paid for me to go to U of M (Go Blue) and I picked up law school myself, and remain in private practice (though I do not love it and someday probably will follow through on my threat of throwing my desk out of my window) for the money, which pays back my modest law school debt and keeps me 100% self sufficient (and able to help my parents some day, as I've helped my in laws straighten out a tax matter this year too). I have nothing against people who occasionally need and get parental help, but a 30ish employed person who looks to mommie and daddy to fund toys and credit card debt is a cretin. Whoops, my true feelings are showing this morning...
MJ at August 26, 2008 7:11 AM
Pirate Jo?
Boy, are you easily shocked:)
(I also have a sneaking respect for marion's comment. With the caveat that if you go to a Big Name School and fail to extract the last drop of juice from your privileged experience every single expensive minute you are there, then you're a total moron & deserve a deeply miserable life.)
Jody Tresidder at August 26, 2008 9:08 AM
MJ, it always flabbergasted me how much adult children rely on their parents for money. I won a full scholarship my first year of college, and a lesser one the next three years, and worked two jobs. I *still* didn't make enough money for tuition and to live somewhere, so my parents helped. (If you ask my mom she says she paid for my entire education, however.) The thing is, I wanted to declare myself independent (a roommate had done this), so I qualified for aid, but my dad wouldn't let me do this as he needed the dependent claim on his taxes. To this day, I wish I'd done it anyway, because as much as I contributed to my education, my mom still thinks I "owe" her. My compnay paid for my grad degree.
MonciaM at August 26, 2008 9:35 AM
Monica stop treating your mother with kid gloves, tell her she owes you for allowing them to use you in fraudulent tax fillings
lujlp at August 26, 2008 10:18 AM
"I also have a sneaking respect for marion's comment."
I have no idea whether it is snobbery or not. I've never met (to my knowledge) anyone who has ever attended a top 15 school. The demographic at the college I attended was about the same as at the high school I attended - I can't say that the experience was much different, except that I lived in a dorm. It was two and a half hours away from my hometown, still in the middle of rural Iowa, and most of the students were from nearby towns. I regret that I didn't get farther away and experience something new, but could never have afforded the out of state tuition - and a private school was out of the question. I have no idea whether you really meet more interesting people at a top 15 school, or whether you just meet richer people.
MonicaP, my parents did the same thing! Claimed me as a dependent for the tax break, then charged me 8% for the money I had to borrow from them, which they never claimed as income on their taxes. Heh! I don't know that it would have made much difference, though. Even if I had been an "independent" taxpayer myself, I would not have qualified for financial aid until I was 25.
Pirate Jo at August 26, 2008 10:41 AM
I have to ask; do people really go to college for the "stimulating intellectual conversation"? I sure as hell didn't. I was on a mission to get my degree and get out of there. College is not like actual adulthood. It's not even a microcosm for actual adulthood. It's just a halfway house between childhood and adulthood. With all the dependency that entails.
My parents paid for my college degree, partly as an apology for making enough money to disqualify me for any sort of reasonable financial aid. For some reason right about the time I started applying, the financial aid industry all but abandoned "merit-based" scholarships in favor of "need-based" ones.
Personally, I really dislike that there's such a stigma attached to trade schools. I made my degree work for me by working in my industry (theater) all four years I went to school. I thought of it as four years of underpaid experience, so I could start life with an acceptable resume. But looking back on it, my time would have been better served at a trade school. Aside from not being able to speak Japanese or use my sign language on ASL-fluent chimpanzees- it wouldn't have been much different.
Homeless in Seattle at August 26, 2008 11:18 AM
And as an aside, when I was heavily in the fringe theater "scene" I worked with a director not much older than I, who happened to graduate from the Harvard school of drama. She got called ALL THE TIME for work...from people who wanted to know how to get into the Harvard school of drama. :)
So I guess it really depends on your industry.
Homeless in Seattle at August 26, 2008 11:25 AM
"Sandy,
Where were your parents while you were being misled?" ~DaveG
Do you mean where were they when I was misled into thinking that retail jobs were all I was qualified for, or where were they when I decided not to go to college? (I'm assuming you don't mean where were they when I was misled into believing that my ex, Voldemort, was a good person.)
I never really discussed college with my parents. It was my decision not to go when I got out of high school. Don't ask if I'd do things differently if I could go back in time knowing what I know now. I probably wouldn't, up to a certain point. (But I would've kicked Voldy to the curb MUCH sooner!)
Sandy at August 26, 2008 12:06 PM
I worked my way through an Ivy, back when student loans weren't as bad as they are now, and when tuition wasn't insane. My degree mattered a tiny bit when I was first working in DC, less so out here, and now--who cares?
My kids have no victim story (unless living with me counts as a hardship, which it might), but as one wants to go overseas and the other wants art school, our middle-class ways won't hurt them.
The op-ed writer ignores that part of the whole application process--if she was still living in the fancy house, not only would she not get any assistance, she wouldn't even get in.
Kate at August 26, 2008 12:07 PM
> Talk to someone who's attended
> one of the top 15 schools
I'll be making fun of you for that later
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at August 26, 2008 1:53 PM
"Personally, I really dislike that there's such a stigma attached to trade schools." I think that that stigma is just about the dumbest thing out there. First we all need electricians and plumber no matter where the economy is going the shit won't fix itself. Second if you do trade school the college it impresses the crap out of people once you get past HR (unfortunately a degree is still required for that stupid though). Also master plumber, carpenters and electricians make more than just about ANY BA you can get.
The one advantage I have seen from college you won't likely find in trade school or community college is the old MRS degree. Kind of sickens me that this is till quite common. Also 4 years and six figure cost for that always seemed a bit steep.
vlad at August 26, 2008 2:18 PM
Agreed, vlad.
If I ruled the world, I wouldn't just eliminate the trade-school stigma, I'd expand both it and the working-internship programs.
I never really understood how sitting in a class listening to someone talk, then taking a test about it is supposed to translate to working experience. When I decided on a university, I purposely chose one with the most "working" classes I could find.
Like I care that my stage crew (or mechanics, or lawyers, or paramedics) were good test takers.
Homeless in Seattle at August 26, 2008 3:14 PM
For men with ambition, trade is much better than college. The man who fixes my a/c bills me around $80 an hour, plus parts on which he makes a handsome profit as well. He is busy all the time.
Don't waste time on chastising me for gender non-neutral. If a woman can and will do it, fine, I just don't hold my breathe.
My eldest daughter was with her mom in Miami, I told her to go to the CC for her first two years, and work for the costs. Then, her mom might help for one year, and with one year to go, her mom might help the last year.
Instead she went to Miami U, very pricey, and at the end of the first year, her mom said it was too much. She ended up enlisting in the Air Force. She didn't get her degree until long after 8 years of service.
My step-daughter listened to me; went to CC for two years, paid all her own way but lived at home like a high school kid.
When she transferred to the State U, a 68 mile round trip, we bought a new 1988 Nova, which ran 14 years and 248,000 miles. She drove back and forth, again living at home like a high school kid, which meant mostly gas money. (We used the car when she didn't need it.)
She got her Science Education degree, and as an undergrad was invited to accompany the Astronomy team to the eclipse in Mexico. Her experience was excellent. She is a very extroverted person, and her friends were all professors and grad students, which for a female not sleeping around is an amazing feat.
She now has a Master's Degree and a new baby, the most adorable of my 5 grandkids.
In 1992, when she started teaching Science in Middle School, the other new teachers were comparing notes. One said her debt was $30,000;; another $40,000. When they asked her, she said, "Well, I owe for my new car."
They said, "How much for college loans?"
She told them, "Nothing."
They said, "How lucky that your parents paid it all."
She said, "They didn't. I paid it all."
Her income tax forms for those years showed what her college cost her. And, she worked mostly at near minimum wages, and mostly only in summer.
Sure, we gave her food, and her mom washed her clothes, which pretty much were what she started college with. Her recreation was her church youth group. As I said, her socialization was with the professors and grad students, as opposed to guzzling beer with other undergrads. (This is another example of college being what a person makes of it.)
I realize tuition has soared since then, but it can still be much cheaper if one takes CC,then state U, especially if U is within commuting distance. Beer; condom; new clothes, and pizza money really adds up.
irlandes at August 26, 2008 9:45 PM
"The man who fixes my a/c bills me around $80 an hour, plus parts on which he makes a handsome profit as well. He is busy all the time." Unless it's his own company which is different he's getting $40 of that. The profits for the parts mark up also goes to the company and not him.
"If a woman can and will do it, fine, I just don't hold my breathe." Hey master and commander we had two women in dive school both worked out fine and now work in industry. Making a shit load more then any teachers I know.
vlad at August 27, 2008 5:34 AM
Irlandes,
Your daughter does sound fantastic - and a great credit to you.
This, however..."She is a very extroverted person, and her friends were all professors and grad students, which for a female not sleeping around is an amazing feat..." is not nearly as amazing as you think.
Especially not among science majors. (The arts crowd, on the other hand:)
Jody Tresidder at August 27, 2008 6:47 AM
Vlad, $40 an hour -- I'm jealous. My sister's an electrician -- welfare put her through due to having babies at 16 and 18 -- but took the cowardly way out. Works for the power company and let's affirmative action work for her, meaning she pulls shit guys would get disciplined for then laughs about how they can't fire her because she's a woman. Like I said before, when we pay to rehab assholes with our tax dollars, it doesn't change their personality. They're still assholes.
I think blue collar workers do respect the trade schools. Those of us who come from poverty are well impressed with what these guys make. (And I don't mean guys literally, just generally.)
T's Grammy at August 27, 2008 7:32 AM
"Vlad, $40 an hour -- I'm jealous." Yeah it's good pay, in fact great pay. However you have to deal with some genuinely irate and stupid people. There is unfortunately a direct correlation between the stupid people and how irate they are. The dumber they are the more likely they are to try working on the unit themselves, more likely to do damage and more likely to blame the last tech who was here. Also the constant exposure to dust and hazardous material has it's cost. So there are some benifits and some down sides.
BTW there are no age limits for going into vocational/tech school. You could always take a crack at it, my dad got his degree at age 62.
"(And I don't mean guys literally, just generally.)" The only reason I reacted is that he made a point of it.
vlad at August 27, 2008 8:08 AM
Don't waste time on chastising me for gender non-neutral. If a woman can and will do it, fine, I just don't hold my breathe.
Not sure where you live, but don't bother holding your breath. The head of my fiance's carpentry shop is a woman. Our theater's Master Electrician for a while was also female. Careful, next we'll want to vote and own property.
...her friends were all professors and grad students, which for a female not sleeping around is an amazing feat.
To partially agree with Jody, no. That's not an amazing feat. Most of my friends in college were professors. Most of the rest were grad students. It doesn't have anything to do with sleeping around. It has everything to do with whom you have the most in common. I was even a "crazy arts person." God forbid I (as a professional Stage Manager-in-training) be respected as opposed to desired (although there was a fair amount of that. Some people are just dense when it comes to that stuff.)
Homeless in Seattle at August 27, 2008 10:37 AM
LOL, Vlad. Right, of course, and not to sound lazy -- though, of course, that's what I'm being -- no thanks. I'm just counting down to retirement these days. Maybe if I get desperate for money on that fixed income.
Yeah, I've dealt with customer service long enough to know what assholes people can be. I've been working in building management for a little over a year now so I also know how retarded they can be about fixing things and the extreme, silly demands they can make. I handle requests for repairs, custodial requests and am the one to call the exterminator if needed. So, yeah, I've some idea of the nonsense they put up with.
That said, I'm surprised at how much I like working in maintenance. I never would have thought I'd like it this well. Of course, I just field the requests and put them through to the people who do the work. I don't get down and dirty. I do have utmost respect for those who do.
T's Grammy at August 28, 2008 7:54 AM
I went to a state university for Animal Bioscience/Pre Vet because I couldn't afford the fancy school. It took a lot of scrimping, saving, working multiple jobs since I was twelve, and searching for scholarships, and to date I still owe over $20,000 in loans.
Unfortunately the state schools in Pennsylvania are some of the costliest in the country. I got my BS degree and then tried to get into vet school. Spent thousands more dollars in the attempts. Its been over 3 years since I graduated and I still can't get in. I did very well on my GRE's and had a good GPA but more importantly I had a decade of hands on experience working with vets. None of this matters. Vet schools won't even look at me for interviews and the one in my state hangs up on me, doesn't return calls, and deletes my emails without reading them. You apparently need contacts and lots of money to get access. Looking back, it seems the only way I could have hoped to get in was to bite the bullet, get a $300,000 student loan and done all 8 years at the fancy school. What was I thinking?!
Torque at August 29, 2008 10:42 AM
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