This is some of the scariest shit I've read in a long time. If Obama gets elected, we're fucked. o_O

And then there's these guys (via A&LD).

"What value is there in attacking people's faith... other than to stir up hatred?" This is what a friend of mine told me recently. Unfortunately, too many people subscribe to this kind of thinking and that is why our society is willfully ignorant of the true nature of Islam.

I think the difference between those right wing nutjobs in Austria and Islamic nutjobs is that the Austrians will be condemned by the rest of the world ... will the Islamists be condemned?

Crid, American conservatives are informed by a Whig sensibility. That's why American conservative Presidents get along so well with Labor in the UK, but have a bumpy ride with Tories. The Whigs filled the void between far-right supporters of the Monarchy, the Tories, and the leftists.

In continental Europe, the void between far-right nationalism and far-left Bolshevism was filled by National Socialism, the Nazis. Hitler called his movement the "third way" between Nationalism and Communism.

This lack of a Whig sensibility on the continent has been a long-standing problem for European politics. A classically liberal approach to governance, neither nationalist nor communist nor national socialist, has never emerged there.

Europeans talk of Social Democracy as against Democratic Socialism. No one talks of the classical liberal state. That has been confined to the Anglopsphere, and the continent has rejected it.

Amy, I urge you to read about the Frankfurt School and its immense influence. In particular, it's successful assault on the American family and man-woman relationships. Crid, I urge you to consider the Frankfurt School's interpretive philosophy, called Critical Theory, which is used by Obama and other left-wing zealots. It is the basis for the many leftist misreadings of the Constitution.

One could think of Europe as a culture dominated by the ideas of the Frankfurt School. It's interpretive theory has left the European mind incapable of defending Liberal culture and tolerance.

In Europe there were only two choices, Bolshevism or Fascism. Since, American capitalism is clearly not Bolshevism, it must be Fascist. This is a crude form of an argument made by Heidegger, and I've had it replayed to me a number of times in Europe. When you point out that it's the fallacy of the false dichotomy, that Europe has historically failed to develop a viable alternative to Fascism and Communism --- you get these wide-eyed stares of bewilderment. They've never considered that. When you point out the many Liberal freedoms in the US, refuting charges of Fascism, you get the hand wave or the chin scratch depending on what country you're in.

I think the difference between those right wing nutjobs in Austria and Islamic nutjobs is that the Austrians will be condemned by the rest of the world ... will the Islamists be condemned? (Charles)

Great point. Most European countries restrict speech that criticizes Islam and Muslims. Consider the recent, successful prosecution of Bridgette Bardot.

No such prosecution has ever been conducted against critics of Jorge Haider's party, or critics of Jean-Marie Le Pen.

All of which is not to say that I think critics of Jorge Haider should be prosecuted. I don't think anyone should be prosecuted for non-violent speech. I object to the way Europe picks and chooses these prosecutions, effectively stripping people of equal protection of the laws.

Unsurprisingly, the prosecutions favor the leftists, the multiculturalists, the New Vandals or anarchists, and of course the Islamists. In short, any anti-Western group get succor. Conservatives, those who want to conserve Western culture, get the gaol.

Jeff,

I had always wondered why Europeans regarded liberal (or libertarian) values as fascist. It never made sense to me. Perhaps I will read up on the subject ...

WWI Europe at war. Germany begins sinking US flagships, America begrudgingly enters the war. The manpower surge and the lessons learned from the previous years' bloodbaths are applied and the Americans fight through the Meuse-Argonne--Germany capitulates 6 weeks later. Europe is freed.

WWII Europe plunges into another war. The western allies and the USSR are propped up by US industries, Hitler foolishly declares war on the U.S. The Germans are ground up in Russia, they try and breakout in the Ardennes...Churchill calls it "the greatest American battle". Germany is torn to pieces ending the war. The USSR gains whole countries for "the blood price".

Cold War Europe is split in two...European nations alone can't hold off the Soviets, NATO is formed with an American as its Commander. The Soviets never smash through on a drive to claim Western Europe.

Why does Europe always need rescuing?

As a side note on Islamic terrorists...
They like blowing themselves up, and we like blowing them up...you'd think we'd get along better.

This is the main reason I'm worried about moving to Europe, which is a possibility if my husband gets an offer there.

I'm less concerned that Muslims are going to blow me up, I'm more concerned about the subtle cultural shift as Europe becomes more and more Islamic. It's not that I don't respect their culture, it's just that I don't want to be living in it.

Of course, a cultural conflict and clash is a huge possibility... I think we are going to see more and more racial riots in Europe.

I wish there was a magical wand I could wave that would disentangle us... that would take the occidentals out of the Middle East and put them back in the occident where they belong, and vice versa. These are two cultures that are never going to assimilate into each other... the desire just isn't there.

Well, Nicole, the only realistic solution is "don't move to Europe".

As far as disengagement - the time for that was about 3,000 years ago.

We most likely won't move to Europe, for other reasons. We still might, though this is something that does worry me.

But you're right... this goes way beyond Palestinians and Israelies and Crusaders and Saladin... this goes back to the wars against Persia and Carthage.

The huge influx of people moving into Europe, however, is new. I think it's a result of Holocaust guilt... Europeans feeling so guilty about the Holocaust that they are paranoid of doing anything that might be construed as being racist.

Seems to me there ought to be a happy medium between slaughtering the ethnic minorities, and letting in the whole world to your socialized system...

Eric, you still think the Armeggedon scenarios are overblown? Please say yes. And check in every day

Crid, your link reminds me of Bill Bryson, and his observation that Austrians are the hillbillies of western Europe.

Well, anyone thinking of future savagery has a handy picture in mind.

If you'd been sitting in a sidewalk café in Frankfurt in 1936, and claimed seriously that Europe would be rubble, literally, in ten years, with tens of millions dead, you'd have been carried off and forcibly medicated.

Every generation fails to see that they, too, can die fighting.

Some don't. But is that skill or luck?

"It's not that I don't respect their culture, it's just that I don't want to be living in it."

This type of apologist thinking is the whole problem, NicoleK. You saying that you respect their culture show that you buy into the mistaken idea that Islamist terrorists don't really represent Islam.

Beth, I totally heart you. Good callout.

I respect their culture exactly as much as they respect mine. They can live exactly as they like, but not in my country.

Beth, I frankly do not give a shit what they do in their own countries, as long as they keep it there. My personal observation when travelling in the West Bank, Gaza, Kuwait, and Dubai has been that most of the people are perfectly sane. I was not secluded in touristland the whole time, at least not in the West Bank and Gaza... I wandered about, hitch-hiked, etc. I didn't get raped, bombed, kidnapped, or anything else. Flirted with, yes. Of course, this was pre-Bush. Granted, the Palestinians are very Mediterranean-influenced... I'm sure hitch-hiking would have been different in a Gulf state.

But even assuming they aren't sane, all the more reason to stay apart. Not apologizing for anything. Just not giving a shit what they do to each other on their turf. I mean, its unfortunate when they kill each other and all, but really not my business. And maybe it's because I'm binational with Switzerland (our motto is stay out of the mess and hold everyone's cash while they kill each other off), but I really do not see the point of going to other countries and forcing democracy/other ideals on them at gunpoint. Change has to come from them.

What they do on their turf is their business, but what they do on -our- turf is our business. So I am very much against any sort of Sharia law in England, or in anywhere Europe or in North America. The occident is our turf. At the very least, Switzerland and the US are my turf. And I am concerned about the changes I am seeing in Switzerland.

As for the women getting accused of being whores in Europe, that is true. My last trip to Paris was spent chaperoning young girls... Mon Dieu! Not only were THEY getting groped, yelled at, etc, but -I- was too, even in my frumpy, matronly chaperone clothes (it would take a very big leap of the imagination to suggest I was "asking for it"). That DOES affect me.

The problem is, Europe has mistaken "respect other cultures" with "implement every culture, superimposed upon our own" which doesn't work. I maintain you can respect a culture without adopting it.

As I said, Europe needs to find a happy medium. You can be respectful of other people without letting them cross certain lines. I think too many lines are being crossed in Europe. I think they really ought to consider putting a stop to immigration, and not giving social services to children who were not born in their nation, of parents who are citizens of the nation. Unfortunately, there is a large chunk of the population that is awash with White Guilt, which they really need to move beyond. The fact is, most people alive today were not in any way involved with the decisions that led to Colonies, the Holocaust, Imperialism, etc.

What's ironic, is I'm not quite sure who those people are. Most of the Europeans I know are very "La France pour les Francais" "La Suisse pour les Suisses", etc. But I guess my circles are more conservative than most.

But one doesn't need to despise all Arabs or Muslims or anyone else to want one's country to belong to one's people. I think that is a major fallacy. Pride in one's people and culture doesn't mean a hatred of all others. And yes, I am aware that a lot of fucked up shit goes down in a lot of Muslim countries. Frankly, though, we lost the moral high ground with Guantanamo and the Iraqi Prison Scandals. When we're pure, which we never will be, because we are human, we can accuse other cultures. I don't love my country and people because I think we are these pure, perfect people, and everyone else is an agent of Satan. I love my country and culture because they are a part of me, and of who I am. My ideals stand for themselves, I don't need to point out how evil Muslims are in order to love my own heritage and beliefs.

> I maintain you can respect
> a culture without adopting it.

Why bother? Let's call a spade a spade, ok? That will help us maintain our personal and national boundaries.

As a side note on Islamic terrorists... They like blowing themselves up, and we like blowing them up...you'd think we'd get along better.

Posted by: Blackjack at September 29, 2008 11:17 AM

That's not even remotely funny Blackjack. It's downright hysterical. Thanks for the laugh..

"Beth, I frankly do not give a shit what they do in their own countries, as long as they keep it there. My personal observation when travelling in the West Bank, Gaza, Kuwait, and Dubai has been that most of the people are perfectly sane. I was not secluded in touristland the whole time, at least not in the West Bank and Gaza... I wandered about, hitch-hiked, etc. I didn't get raped, bombed, kidnapped, or anything else. Flirted with, yes. Of course, this was pre-Bush. Granted, the Palestinians are very Mediterranean-influenced... I'm sure hitch-hiking would have been different in a Gulf state[..."
"...]But one doesn't need to despise all Arabs or Muslims or anyone else to want one's country to belong to one's people. I think that is a major fallacy. Pride in one's people and culture doesn't mean a hatred of all others. And yes, I am aware that a lot of fucked up shit goes down in a lot of Muslim countries. Frankly, though, we lost the moral high ground with Guantanamo and the Iraqi Prison Scandals. When we're pure, which we never will be, because we are human, we can accuse other cultures. I don't love my country and people because I think we are these pure, perfect people, and everyone else is an agent of Satan. I love my country and culture because they are a part of me, and of who I am. My ideals stand for themselves, I don't need to point out how evil Muslims are in order to love my own heritage and beliefs. Posted by: NicoleK at September 29, 2008 6:25 PM

Very nice piece Nicole. Extremely well-written and nicely articulated.

things are not much better here in australia either.last australia day the manly council would not even fly the australian flag for fear of offending the moslems.two of my nephews friends in brisbane were attacked and savagly beaten by a mob of lebanese moslems for no reason at all just walking down the street.we allow moslems to build their mosques here but you try and build a church in iran and see how far you get.

That was a very sobering post. Yet, technology is making it harder and harder for even the most conservative Muslims to remain unexposed to the ideals of personal freedom that animate the world's most developed countries. Over time, this could undermine the idiocy that so prevalent in much of the Muslim world. If women's liberation were ever to really take off in the Muslim world, that would surely erode the hold Islam's hold. Iran has had religious authorities at the top of its government for 29 years and that has made many Iranians, especially the young, very cynical about Islam. (Or maybe there's something uniquely progressive about Iranian culture vis-a-vis other Islamic countries.)

Along this line, some readers might want to check out the article that ran on the N.Y. Times Web Site on 9/26 or 9/27/08, titled "Arab TV Tests Societies’ Limits With Depictions of Sex and Equality". I don't have the URL available but I'm sure it can be chased down.

Let's not forget that here in the West (U.S., in my case), we have plenty of religious flakes and would-be tyrants, too. Fortunately their sway has abated considerably in the last 60 years.

Frankly, though, we lost the moral high ground with Guantanamo and the Iraqi Prison Scandals. When we're pure, which we never will be, because we are human, we can accuse other cultures. (NicoleK)

Nope. This kind of hogwash results from an inability to reason about matters of degree. Guantanamo is a consequence of the application of POW status to illegal combatants who in previous wars would have been stood in front of a wall and shot --- perfectly legally under the Geneva Conventions. The Iraqi prison scandal was a matter of illegal activity. There are around 141,000 troops in Iraq. Consider the crime rate in a typical US city with a population of 141,000. Now take away the normal constraints of civilized society. American troops are easily, easily the most disciplined in the world if not in history. Get a grip on historical and demographic norms before you start writing stuff like this.

Muslim societies hang gay people, execute women who've been raped, etc. --- as a matter of law.

The problem is, Europe has mistaken "respect other cultures" with "implement every culture, superimposed upon our own" which doesn't work. I maintain you can respect a culture without adopting it. (NicoleK)

Europe embraces the idiotic concept of multi-culturalism which means allowing immigrant to keep their culture in European lands and forcing Europeans to subsidize the legal and social artifacts of the foreign culture.

So, while you are correct, one can respect a culture without adopting it, this is not the relevant question. There are better ones. To what degree should immigrants adapt to our cultural norms? What if they don't?

If you think Guantanamo and the Iraqi prison crime creates a moral equivalence between the nearly totalitarian Saudi Arabia and the very Liberal America, then I suspect you can't even defend the notion of Western cultural norms.

My ideals stand for themselves, I don't need to point out how evil Muslims are in order to love my own heritage and beliefs. (NicoleK)

Strictly speaking this is absurd, a logical impossibility. If you stand for individual liberty, for example, then you necessarily stand against totalitarianism. If you stand for freedom of conscience, then you necessarily stand against violent coercion by religious groups. If you stand for separation of church and state, then you necessarily stand against some of the main tenets of Islam, and by most accounts against Islam itself.

Every stand is both for and against some proposition, or more precisely a set of propositions. I'm afraid your idea of self-standing cultural norms just won't do.

> Pride in one's people and
> culture doesn't mean a
> hatred of all others.

We needn't bother to hate them. But we shouldn't be bashful or reticent about the ways our culture is superior to theirs... And it really is superior. To fail to acknowledge this isn't the expression of some vaguely-spiritual connectedness towardall of humankind; it's a willful, solipsistic, childish disavowel of our responsibility to share human progress with anyone born to the form.

I don't "respect" primitive Islamic culture. It's difficult enough making peace with the most enlightened and modern expressions of it.

Call things by their names, OK? Failing to do so doesn't make you a nicer person.

Crid, is 100% right. And crid is 100% right about 90% of the time. Which is cool.

So, I'm wondering, to whom does the future belong?

I'm thinking the endgame will be the Chinese kicking the Moslem ass. And I don't mean the donkey kind.

Jef at September 29, 2008 8:03 PM

Excellent.

But you're right... this goes way beyond Palestinians and Israelies and Crusaders and Saladin... this goes back to the wars against Persia and Carthage.

Posted by: Nicolek

"... this goes back to the wars against Persia and Carthage."

Um, no, this goes back 1400 years to the inception of Islam. The following argument is made here:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={BD353E11-0000-4BBB-9617-603119B0BFE6}

that 1400 years of the "Religion of Peace" has resulted in the deaths of 270 million people by jihad.

Here is the arithmetic ...

Warner: The figure of 270 million is a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad. It is calculated as such:

Africans

Thomas Sowell estimates that eleven million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and fourteen million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. [1] David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached the plantation, five others died by being killed in the raid or died on the forced march from illness and privation. [2] So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have the collateral death of about 120 million people. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa. Death toll: 120 million Africans

Christians

The number of Christians martyred by Islam is nine million.[3] A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad. So to account for the one million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have: 60 million Christians

Hindus

Koenard Elst in Negationism in India [4] gives an estimate of eighty million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. Death toll: 80 million Hindus

Buddhists

Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly ten million. [5] Death toll: 10 million Buddhists

Jews

The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.

This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.

We needn't bother to hate them. But we shouldn't be bashful or reticent about the ways our culture is superior to theirs... And it really is superior. Posted by: Crid at September 29, 2008 8:03 PM

So superior that we're the world's most hated country. So superior that other countries refuse to bail out our economy. One that's built on a house of cards, and where our "friends" our salivating at the thought of our economic demise. So superior that in a country whose primary language is English, one must "press one for English" and learn Spanish to communicate with employees in many restaurants.

Sorry, I generally agree with most of the LW's on this board, however I'm of the humble opinion that after Nicole slapped-down "one of the group", the name "NicoleK" was painted inside a big red bulls eye.

I suspect that after she posted the "knockout punch" aka rebuttal, some of the group's collective feathers may have been ruffled.

My experiences are that those who believe that they are intellectually superior, tend to become edgy after a bigger giant walks through the door.

But what the hell do I know, I generally profess to be the resident idiot where ever I'm at. Kool aid anyone?

One should point out that it's not as bad in Europe as the article makes it sound. Take the bit about "UK accepts Sharia law". This is not great, since it has been made to appear that the UK has accepted Sharia courts, but it is actually nothing new.

I expect it is true in any Western country: two parties have the right, for civil cases, to agree to an arbiter who will decide the case for them. In this case, the arbiter is a Sharia court. What is unfortunate, is that we know all too well that some people (especially women) will be intimidated into agreeing to this arbitration.

There are problems of assimilation. In Europe, it's Muslims. In the US, it's 20 million illegal immigrants.

> So superior that we're the
> world's most hated country.

Our enterprise is civilization, not high school popularity.

As the global leader in so many respects, our challenge isn't mere teenage envy. The flavor of our food, the beauty of our women, the depth of our education, and the distortion of our electric guitars are often the way that other nations first learn that these are fields deserving their best effort for contention. Of course we're the most famous... Of course we are.

We're the global standard, a standard other nations can't hope of meeting. Hell, hearing about how good life can be in the United States is how many people on this planet learn that there even are other countries. How many school children in the Comoros have heard of Abkhazia, let alone found pen pals there?

> So superior that other countries
> refuse to bail out our economy.

First of all, to my knowledge, we've not asked them to.

Second, to the considerable extent that they've done so anyway (as I read from events in the financial capitals of Europe and Asia on Monday), regulators in the developed world struggle their God Damnedest to keep our markets greased... They know that if we go down, the party's over.

Third, I've never heard of any nation "bailing out the economy" of another, with one compelling exception: The Marshall plan, by which the United States "bailed out" (stabilized and rehabilitated) the continent of Europe, theretofore the seat of the western world. OK, two compelling exceptions... We put Japan back together, too. At the same time.

> One that's built on
> a house of cards

I don't think you're enough of an economist to reflect on non-zero-sum game theory, but you oughta read up on it. (And for the record, it works in marriages, too.)

> and where our "friends" our
> salivating at the thought
> of our economic demise.

You can't have it both ways; if you truly admire their righteousness, you've got no business mocking their insincere friendship.

> So superior that in a country
> whose primary language is
> English, one must "press one for
> English"

Absolutely. People want in... They want in bad. They figure out how shitty the prospects are in their home nations and then risk their lives to flip our burgers.

> the name "NicoleK" was painted
> inside a big red bulls eye.

The adornment is her own. It wouldn't be my fashion choice....

> But what the hell
> do I know

On at least two occasions on this blog, I've quoted Golda Meir (always with attribution!): "Don't be so humble. You're not that great."

The variant for you ùand for Nicole as expressed in the earlier commentù is "Don't be so meek. You've lived too large." You've rolled through life in the States in a condition of wealth, safety, opportunity, wisdom, respect and reflection that the wealthiest empowers of past centuries would never have imagined.... Especially if you're a late-twentieth or early twenty-first century American woman. If you're as bitter as you appear to be, then you've probably bungled your own opportunities.

But you have no business pretending that this is how we happen to do things over here, while other cultures just happen to do clitoridectomies, sharia and abject illiteracy. You have no business. It's indecent. It's transparent. It's the emotional manipulation of a child, and it's deeply wrong.

Reagan put it like this: "Dance with the one who brung ya."

Empowers was supposed to be emperors.

Also, this: ù is supposed to be this: --

Fuckin' spellcheck, man. Fuckin' spellcheck.

PS- Anybody notice how oil was down ten or fifteen dollars a barrel today? Do you suppose the oil producing nations of the world are "salivating"? Or are they pissing with fear?

Crid - that was as good a smack-down as I have read. Thanks. It was needed.

I just heard on CNBC -- on talk of oil going to $65 -- "They [OPEC] won't let it go to 65".

There are always going to be those who MUST tear down America. I suspect that this is out of the profound sense of guilt that they feel for being in the most prosperous society humanity has ever known, simply by accident of birth.

Crid,
Please understand that I intend to reply in full, and when I have the time. That said, it may be a few days and even up to a week.

Nonetheless, and for now, good writing coupled with a deep vocabulary may give the impression one is intelligent, but it "ain't" so.

I can assure you that I know a hell of a lot more about this house of cards called our "economy" than you could even fathom.

Based on a quick review of responses, it appears that I may have previously mistaken others ignorance for their intelligence. Precisely why I claim to be the resident idiot wherever I go.

Come down off the horse, you're running it hard, it's tired, and it needs a drink...

I said:
"... this goes back to the wars against Persia and Carthage."

Ken said:
"Um, no, this goes back 1400 years to the inception of Islam. The following argument is made here: "

And I reply... no, this conflict really DOES predate Islam. Europe has been fighting the Middle East and North Africa since way before Islam was invented.

Jef wrote:
"So, while you are correct, one can respect a culture without adopting it, this is not the relevant question. There are better ones. To what degree should immigrants adapt to our cultural norms? What if they don't?"

... and that's the main problem. I'm of the opinion that when one is accepting immigrants into the country, one should accept more immigrants from countries with similar values, and less from countries with different ones. The problem Europe is facing is they have accepted too many people from countries with drastically different values.

The problem cuts two ways... first, many of the immigrants do not want to assimilate to begin with, second, in some countries, those who do want to assimilate face difficulties. Obviously, my experience is mostly with the Swiss (and to some extent the Italians, Germans, and French). I can tell you that Switzerland is a very closed society. People usually live near where they grew up, and are friends with the same people they've lived near all their lives, and aren't looking for new friends. Someone moving in isn't going to interest the local Swiss much, even if they are excited to learn all about Fondue and banking.

It's a bit of a paradox, because on the one hand the Swiss despise their own traditions, preferring the music, film, and art of other countries, and they have the self-loathing of a lot of white people, and they have a lot of guilt and tend to adopt pro-multiculturalist stances. On the other hand, it is still a very closed society. Although, I think the generation shift will change that. I know of more Swiss girls having children with non-European immigrants than with fellow Swiss or Europeans.

An interesting thing I noticed in Toulouse (France)this summer was the large number of interracial couples. At first glance, it looks like the peace and love dream of multiculturalism. But if you look closely, you will see that it almost always consists of
a French girl with a foreign man. I almost never saw it the other way around. If it was purely random, and people were truly colorblind, it would go both ways. But it doesn't. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but it seemed significant to me. Perhaps some of the readers have some thoughts on the issue. This seems like it could cause problems and conflict. I know of many Swiss and French men who bristle at this. Racists? Perhaps. Or perhaps bristling at sexual competition from someone "outside of the tribe" so to speak is a natural human response, which may have consequences later. I don't think it is wise to ignore it and brush off the bristling men as "just plain racists".

I am worried that there will be a great deal more tension, it feels a lot like a pressure cooker in Europe right now. It could be that I am paranoid and have an overactive imagination.

It just seems to me that Europe in general (with some exceptions) has accepted far too many immigrants from countries that are far too different. I think it could accept a small number of people from those communities without too much of a problem, but there are far too many. "Ils nous envahissent" is something I hear a lot from many different people. "C'est comme les Ottomans" is another. In theory, it is nice for people to all get along, but in practice forcing people to accept large numbers of another culture onto their turf seldom works well.

And now I've pissed everyone off... half the board because I refuse to hate Arabs, and the other half because I refuse to sing the praises of multiculturalism.

I said:
"... this goes back to the wars against Persia and Carthage."

Ken said:
"Um, no, this goes back 1400 years to the inception of Islam. The following argument is made here: "

And I reply... no, this conflict really DOES predate Islam. Europe has been fighting the Middle East and North Africa since way before Islam was invented.

Posted by: NicoleK

Nicolek,

You are missing the whole point of Amy's post, and you are obfuscating the threat, ... spelled
... I S L A M.

Nicolek said:

"The problem Europe is facing is they have accepted too many people from countries with drastically different values."

That is a generic condemnation that lets Islam off the hook.

I have two questions for you, Nicolek,

1) What values, other than Islamic values, are presenting the "problem Europe is facing" on a scale commensurate with those that so concern Geert Wilders?

2) While you are at it, please enlighten me as to what values, other than Islamic values, are causing worldwide terrorist attacks on a scale commensurate with the following?

[Mind you, this is JUST for the past week (!)]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past Week

Date Country City Killed Injured Description

9/29/2008 India Gujarat The Religion of Peace is behind two bomb blasts in commercial districts that leave seven dead, including women shoppers.

9/29/2008 Thailand Narathiwat Islamists shoot a 47-year-old man to death while he is shopping for groceries.

9/29/2008 Algeria Bomerdas Suicide car bombers take down three innocent people.

9/29/2008 Lebanon Tripoli Six people are burned to a crisp, and thirty others injured by Islamic bombers targeting local soldiers.

9/28/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar A top policewoman is gunned down by the Taliban, who also put her young son in a coma during the attack.

9/28/2008 Algeria Tizi Wazu Two security guards are brutally slain by Muslim fundamentalists at a fake checkpoint.

9/28/2008 Iraq Baghdad Three separate Jihad car bombings leave nearly three dozen Iraqi civilians dead.

9/28/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar Taliban assassins take down four Afghan bodyguards.

9/28/2008 Thailand Narathiwat A 33-year-old man is shot to death by Muslim extremists.

9/28/2008 Somalia Mogadishu Two civilians are killed during a Mujahideen attack in a residential area.

9/28/2008 Pakistan Attock Suspected Taliban abduct an engineer after murdering his three companions.

9/27/2008 Syria Damascus A suicidal Sunni bombs a Shia shrine, slaughtering seventeen innocents.

9/27/2008 Pakistan Matta Sunni extremists kill three house servants when they blow up several homes.

9/27/2008 India Delhi A young boy and an old man die following a bombing by Muslim radicals at an outdoor market.

9/27/2008 Somalia Mogadishu Islamic militia fire mortars into an airport, killing at least nine.

9/27/2008 Iraq Mosul Fundamentalists gun down a table tennis coach.

9/26/2008 Afghanistan Khost A Fedayeen suicide bomber murders five Afghans at a marketplace.

9/26/2008 Pakistan Punjab A woman and three children are among nine killed when suspected Islamists derail a train with an explosive device.

9/26/2008 Pakistan Karachi Religious extremists murder a man after handcuffing him.

9/26/2008 Pakistan Karachi The body of a kidnapped truck driver is found tortured and murdered by Islamists.

9/26/2008 Iraq Baghdad Jihadis use an IED to kill three children.

9/26/2008 Pakistan South Waziristan A local tribesman is killed by the Taliban.

9/26/2008 Thailand Narathiwat Islamists shoot a 27-year-old plantation worker to death.

9/26/2008 Philippines Maguindanao A civilian is killed when Moro Islamists attack an army patrol.

9/25/2008 Afghanistan Kandahar Talibanis take down four locals with two bombs.

9/25/2008 Afghanistan Herat Eleven guards at a construction site are murdered by religious radicals.

9/25/2008 India Baramulla A pro-India politician is gunned down by Mujahdeen.

9/25/2008 Iraq Baghdad Fundamentalists gun down a local homosexual rights leader inside a barber shop.

9/25/2008 Somalia Wardegley Ten civilians, including a woman and several children are killed following attacks by Islamic militia.

9/25/2008 Pakistan Charbagh A flour dealer is murdered near his shop by Muslim militants.

9/25/2008 Pakistan Khyber The Taliban shoot a man to death outside a mosque.

9/25/2008 Thailand Pattani Three civilians in their early 30's are murdered by Islamic gunmen in separate attacks.

9/25/2008 Pakistan Swat Religious extremists gun down two local cops.

9/24/2008 Pakistan Quetta A young girl is among four people killed by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.

9/24/2008 Afghanistan Kabul Six Afghan policemen are murdered in two attacks by religious extremists.

9/24/2008 Somalia Mogadishu Eleven civilians are killed during an attack by Islamic militia.

9/24/2008 Somalia Baidoa Mujahideen kill four people at a market with a bomb hidden in a donkey cart.

9/24/2008 Thailand Yala A 30-year-old hospital gardener is murdered in cold blood by Islamic gunmen.

9/24/2008 Iraq Diyala al-Qaeda gunmen ambush an Iraqi security patrol, wiping out thirty-five souls.

9/24/2008 Pakistan Kot Islamic militants blow up a girls school and kill two local soldiers in a separate incident.

9/24/2008 Thailand Pattani A local soldier is killed by Muslim radicals while resting under a tree.

9/23/2008 Afghanistan Uruzgan A woman and a 12-year-old are among six civilians blown to bits by Taliban bombers.

9/23/2008 Iraq Baquba Sectarian rivals blow up the home of a recently returned family, killing one of the women.

********************************

I refuse to hate Arabs too.

I don't hate muslims, either.

But I do hate Islam, because Islam is a miserable worldwide cancer of an ideology, masquerading as a religion.

>>>>Crid,
Please understand that I intend to reply in full, and when I have the time. That said, it may be a few days and even up to a week.

Yeah, Crid. Just wait. When I get this book on Wittgenstein finished, I'm turning to you, with both barrels. Just wait. Wait. Here it comes...

First of all, the Muslims are not the only problem immigrants. Western Europe is having to deal with a large influx of eastern Europeans, some of whom are Muslims, some of whom are Christians, and these are also causing a problem, mostly with petty thefts, assaults, and domestic violence. Actually, I hear more complaints about them than about Arabs.

Now the problem is that Europe has a LOT of Muslim immigrants, more than say, Hindu immigrants. So they are a large bloc. If there was a large bloc of Hindus, Europe would be having a Hindu problem. Historically, Hindus haven't been a problem, but I bet if they historically had lived in say, Egypt, they would produce a much larger threat. We simply don't have the back-history and resentment dating over 1000s of years with them.

The fact is, it doesn't matter what nationality/ethnicity you're dealing with. Multiculturalism always is going to have conflicts and problems. We need to think about the consequences of letting in so many foreigners BEFORE we let them in. The United States can learn from Europe. Not that it will.

I think it was Brian who brought up the fact that if I believe my ideals then I should be outraged when other people don't implement them... I think this is a perfect example of the conflicts of multiculturalism. I'm American, so I believe in democracy, but I'm also Swiss, so I believe in not going out and meddling in other people's business. This can create a conflict.

Look, my mom is a white, Protestant, educated woman from Switzerland. My dad is a white, Protestant, educated man from America. You'd think the cultural differences would be minimal, no? No. I'm telling you that even these cultures that are incredibly similar have a great deal of differences. Now, they can be worked out fairly easily. My loyalties are, however, split. But take two greatly different cultures and mix them together and the results can be explosive.

Now, you're trying to convince me that Islam is inherently psycho in and of itself, and have come up with a list of psychos. Islam is not the only psycho religion in the world. All the Abrahamic religions are a bit psycho. Read Leviticus! Europe had the Enlightment, which the Middle East and North Africa have not had. But we've had our own history of violence and destruction. No, I am not saying the govt. of Saudi Arabia is a good one. Wahabi Islam is strict and dour and unforgiving. Sufism less so.

The problem isn't that Islam exists, the problem is that we've been meddling with it too much. We really have no business being there. Sending troops there has not made the world a safer place. Previously calm people have been radicalized. Lebanon was once the gateway to the west! Not so much, anymore...

Our involvement in the Muslim world, our aggressive stance of colonization and interference is not benefitting us. It's just pissing them off, and frankly, rightly so. If the Muslims dealt with us the way we deal with them, we'd be pissed too. And I hope we would fight back.

But here I am talking, and I have no real solution. Ideally, I'd like to see the Muslims out of the occident, and the occidentals out of the Muslim world.

But Czechs and Bulgarians don't insist that schools cater to their prejudices and superstitions. Petty crime isn't the biggest worry in the outer rings of Paris.

Our involvement in the Muslim world isn't as worrisome as their insistence on remaking the rest of the world to their liking. The Netherlands' days of colonialism are long gone, but Muslims came in droves, due to very liberal social welfare policies. Now, the Dutch are stuck with people who won't assimilate, won't participate and demand that the rest of the country bow to their wishes, whims, and values--all of which were formed in a agrarian tribal world that's hopelessly at odds with a modern urban society.

Can it happen here? I doubt that any country with the 2nd amendment is likely to see women whipped in the streets for baring their forearms. But Dearbornistan is pretty close.

Now, you're trying to convince me that Islam is inherently psycho in and of itself, and have come up with a list of psychos. Islam is not the only psycho religion in the world. All the Abrahamic religions are a bit psycho.

Posted by: NicoleK

NicoleK,

So all the Abrahamic religions are a "bit" psycho? ... You paint them all with a convenient and unsubstantiated broad brush, and yet you cannot answer my two questions, which I will repeat here:

1) What values, other than Islamic values, are presenting the "problem Europe is facing" on a scale commensurate with those that so concern Geert Wilders?

2) While you are at it, please enlighten me as to what values, other than Islamic values, are causing worldwide terrorist attacks on a scale commensurate with the following? (see my prior post)

... and I invite you to you ignore a new and third question:

3) Which of these other "a bit psycho" Abrahamic religions has caused anywhere near 270 million deaths?

Maybe I spoke too soon:

Honor killing in Georgia. No, our Georgia.

http://jihadwatch.org/archives/021703.php

So, I think that the NRA should be allowed to consult with all Muslim women as to their 2nd amendment rights.

This is so frightening. It's terrifying that so many people are willfully blind to the threat Islam poses to everything good in our world. And what can normal people like us do against this besides talk?? How can spreading awareness halt the poison?

I respect all people. I don't respect all choices. You can make harmful choices in the name of any religion, but Islam appears to be champion in the sheer amount and depth of harm inflicted in its name. Simple facts. Ken's numbers are convincing, though I have no authority to verify them. The teachings and writings of Islam repeatedly quoted here (especially regarding treatment of women and non-believers) are also convincing, to the extent that they are routinely followed by an astonishing number of modern Muslims. You can't say the same thing about the Bible. Anything wacky in its pages is not followed to nearly as harmful an extent in today's world. Just think about it (NicoleK).

Don't have anything intelligent to add, I'm afraid. This shit is too scary.

And what can normal people like us do against this besides talk??

Posted by: Debra

Debra and Amy,

I have often asked myself that question too. There are resistance groups out there. I haven't actively participated yet, but I plan to.

Here are a few of them:

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/

http://www.bnaielim.org/

http://www.actforamericala.com/index.html