Thank you for a very good article pointing out the very heart of the matter. Also, The Muslim faith cuts out Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Agreed, one need only look at the end result of the societies that have had Islam as a major religion to see what it eventually brings.

Great. So if Islam is a totalitarian system, and not a religion, then what is Christianity? The same thing in a different package. You will not recognize this, as it uses the same cloak hide itself. Read the Old Testament for a change and you will see which religion really advocates genocide, slavery, and totalitarian rule.

Mike,

So to understand Christianity we have to read the Old Testament? Funny, I thought the teachings of Jesus were summarized in the New Testament. And I also thought Jesus taught to turn the other cheek. And please tell me where in the New Testament it tells followers how many rocks to use to wipe their asses with. And also let me know where in the New Testament specific groups of people are identified as outsiders and given a choice between death and subservience. Islam is the most totalitarian ideology I have ever had the displeasure to read about. I hope you're not one of those boneheads that believe that in order to eliminate oppression in the middle east we must let Muslims have control of Israel ...

Yes! lets judge the group by the actions of the minority if individuals. Whats that called again? Some Muslims are bad so they must all be bad right?

I live in a town ( Atlanta) that has been attacked three times by terroist bombings. All three of these where Christian, Right wing attacks made in the name of Jesus Christ in an effort to stop abortion and Gay freedoms. Should I then assume that Christians are a terrorist group too? Since the actions of a few representing the mass than we need to start tourturing and killing those evil christians too! Sounds just a little crazy doesn't it?

I've been wondering this for a while since reading the blog postings and responses on this topic...do you (or any posters, for that matter), have any close Muslim friends. If so, how does that work, given what you feel about the religion?
Curious.

First of all, does it matter if a muslim runs for president? Yes, it does and for the reason that Bush was doomed to fail in the middle east with his concept of spreading democracy and freedom to the "supressed" islamic nations: for muslims, their law is a religious book.

Everything that they do in the their lives is dictated by the Quran. Here, in america, we have a modest level of separation of church and state. Anyone who believes that there is complete separation has not been paying attention.

Mike, you have selective memory. Please, don't reference the new testament--Revelations is violent enough. Christians are responsible for holocausts. Spreading their religious beliefs on entire cultures of people and forcing them to convert or die.

Back to the issue for a moment. Muslim taxi drivers are refusing to accept passengers who are carrying alcohol in their baggage. This is the core reason why having a muslim president would not be good for the country.

Although america is a christian society--i am atheist--there is not a concerted effort to judeo-christians to enforce the religious laws above state and federal laws--we'll leave Bush out of this discussion.

Enough ranting on my part.

Good thing no Muslim is running for President.

If Campbell Brown were asked to spend a few years living in Saudi Arabia she may change her tune. I actually had some respect for this woman, but now it is out the door. Is she asking this for real? I can tell you right now, that if the day comes that we have a Muslim President, we will be in an all out war. She obviously does not understand the ramifications of being under muslim law and the effects it has on society. Go back to school Campbell.

It matters to me because Jesus said, "If you bring someone the Good News or Gospel, and they reject it, kick the dust off your feet and move on to the next house." In other words, if you are not a Christian you are wrong. These are not my words. They are in the Bible. So it does matter if you are a Christian or not. We as Christians cannot be tolerant of other religions. We are told in the Bible that if we even speak or say good day to someone who is not a Christian, we will pay for it. These are not my words. They are in the Bible. There are Christians who don't even know this. But those are the ones who haven't read the Bible from cover to cover as I have. And when the Bible says to love your neighbor, it means by bringing them the Gospel, not by saying it is okay for you to worship as you please. It is not okay to Jehovah.

Charles,

You are absolutely right, Jesus is definitely not the Old Testament type. Isn't it odd that the father would make the son so different, yet perfect, like him? Or, maybe, it is just a fabrication. If you consider the New and Old Testaments to be seperable entities, then you have a problem with conveniently deleting the inconvenient truth from your memory. Jesus was just a man who convinced others he was not just a teacher, but a prophet, who said he would return in the lifetimes of his immediate followers. Dozens of lifetimes later, we now have the distorted version of a already distorted veiw. Mohammed must have loved what people did with Christianity in the centuries following Jesus' death, however; it gave him the perfect model for theocratic rule.

Who is this Jesus?.....another right wing nut.

You guys with your bibles and qurans should go battle it out and let the normal people live their lives.

I just saw a great bumper sticker:

Jesus is Coming. Everybody Look Busy.

I hate to say this, but Campbell Brown is dumber than a bag of rocks.

Why do you people think that a Muslim President would automatically mean we would convert to Sharia law? See, when the founders created government they didn't want all of the power with one person, so they created three different branches of government. It would be virtually impossible for a Muslim to implement Sharia law without also gaining a significant presence in the House AND Senate, and that ain't gonna happen.

That being said, electing No-Bama to the White House accompanied by nut-jobs like Pelosi and Barney Frank will surely taking us about 5 steps closer to a socialist society. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of Americans are okay with this.

To Jack: Well said.

To David: I think you got our names mixed up.

If you think that there aren't muslims as Mickey Mouse about their religion as christians largely tend to be, then you definitely have not been to Turkey, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, or any of the many places I have had the pleasure to grace with my presence. They are all normal people who are just as suceptible to being duped into the religion con-game as anyone else.

Finally! thank you Campbell Brown for saying what has been missing from even the most eloquent and normally savvy "best political team on television". Being an Arab or a Muslim is not a crime! Nor it is a negative of any kind. To say John McCain did the right thing by "correcting" that woman at his town hall meeting when he said that Obama was a good man (i.e. NOT an Arab) was despicable. All this constant 'punditing' in the press about people still thinking Obama is a Muslim, and NO ONE that I have heard or read until you has even addressed this obvious and continuous unsaid slur on Arabs and Muslims. When did we all decide to paint the Arab and Muslim world with one broad "terrorist" stroke? We certainly wouldn't accept others lumping all Christians together -- I know I wouldn't.
Thank you for being the ONE voice to counter the unbelievable torrent of anti-Arab anti-Muslim sentiment among those who should know better.

Miss Brown, I am proud to be American and proud of your type of people who made this country great.
Hurray for you, is Christian to be blamed for Oklohoma bombing or should we condemm all german because their leaders during WWII killed millions of people.

There are 2 Billion Muslim in this world and perhaps only 100K are terrorist.

Black, Jews, Mulsim , Christian or whatever your background or religion we are all American first and united we stand

"Finally! thank you Campbell Brown...."

Thank you for what? The point here is muslims are a threat to world peace and prosperity. No one would ever want a muslim to run this country. Look at the middle east and how messed up it is. When they are not fighting the west, they are fighting with each other.

Prior to islam, the middle east prospered and many ideas and inventions came from that area. Relgion took over and thinking was no longer allowed. I think the US should isolate itself from the mideast, and let them kill each other. We need to stop being the police for the world.

There is clearly a separation of church and state in America, which means that no matter what the president believes that may affect his decisions, but by no means disqualifies him from taking office. Also, it's easy to turn any religion into a "global movement, the goal of which is to bring every living human being on the planet under its crushing totalitarian rule" Just by selecting certain statements made in the book, you can do the same thing with the bible, meaning Amy Alkon is full of shit.

Today, most people think they understand something if they can merely name it's parts. Naming is not understanding. Most subjects must be understood historically.

Once again, I submit one of the best books I've read for comprehending the Muslim world view: Winston Churchill's The River War.

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

Great idea, Jack. Only problem is that we still rely on their resources to feed our rather large energy consumption. When that is fixed we can become out-of-touch isolationists like the Soviet Union was.

"There is clearly a separation of church and state in America..."

The seperation of church and state is not as profound as you'd think. There is a lot of money thrown around to politicians from the right. Turkey is a "secular" nation which is dominated by muslims....and I'll bet that in my lifetime it get overrun by the nuts that think everybody needs live by the Quran. While Christians and Jews have their own issues...I don't see them bombing coffee shops in the name of their religion.....bottom line....Religion is the root of all evil.....it sickens the mind.

I really command you Campbell Brown for this brilliant commentary. I have been sickened by the idea that somehow calling someone a Muslim was a bad thing in itself. There is a huge difference between true Muslims who want to live in peace with the rest of the world and carry out peaceful and dignified lives, and the infinite small minority of radicals and even terrorists who do not shy away from using Islam as a cover for their political agendas. I am a Muslim American and proud to be both. I spend a lot of time teaching my kids that they must be proud Americans and reminding them how fortunate we are to live in this country, and I want to do everything that I can so young Muslims don't feel marginalized in this country or thought of as "second class citizens" or "not one of us". It's one thing that some right wing radical and ignorant groups make some outrageous and racist comments about Muslims - We have come to expect that unfortunately - However, the media is expected to be much more vigilant and not tolerate this kind of hate speech. I have served my country dearly and will continue to do so with pride for the rest of my days, and I know hundreds of Muslim Americans in my immediate surrounding who express the same feeling. There are 8 million other Muslim Americans around this country who feel the same way, so I cannot let anyone question my patriotism and devotion to my country simply on the basis of my religion.
To our beloved friend who said that Islam cuts out "Jesus as our savior", is that a reason to disqualify people? Just because they don't believe the same thing you do? What about Buddhists, Jews, agnostics, atheists... and all others who do not believe that Jesus is "our savior"? FYI, Islam recognizes the immaculate conception of Jesus. Quran Chapter 19 Maryam (Mary) http://www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=19. You can also view the video of this chapter illustrating Jesus’ birth on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8NbjNPMB9M . Islam recognizes Jesus as a Prophet and Messenger of God, that he has been elevated to the Heavens and that he will come at the end of the World to save mankind from eternal damnation. Sounds familiar? So Muslims do believe in Jesus as a savior in this sense. I spent a lot of time studying the fascinating subject of Religion Comparison and find that - propaganda set aside - if you study the real scriptures and the doctrines of several religions, ironically, Islam comes out as the closest of all to Christianity.

For the sake of our country, I beg all my fellow Americans not to make the same mistakes that have been made repeatedly throughout history against races and religions. That only leads to more hate, more violence and even wars. Let us sit down together, talk to each other, share ideas, share thoughts, let's continue to make this country the land of opportunity for all mankind, to build it together to make it stronger and stronger. As my father once said: "Mankind is like a flower basket, the more diverse, the more beautiful". Let continue to make America more beautiful.

Adnane - A Proud American and a Proud Muslim

There is clearly a separation of church and state in America, which means that no matter what the president believes that may affect his decisions, but by no means disqualifies him from taking office. (Phil)

But the President advocates the separation of Church and state, yet no Muslim can. When voting for a presidential candidate, surely we must consider beliefs that run counter to the Constitution.

Also, it's easy to turn any religion into a "global movement, the goal of which is to bring every living human being on the planet under its crushing totalitarian rule" (Phil)

True, but incomplete. Islam has actually conquered nation-states, conducted wars of extermination against other religions, and conducted massive terrorist campaigns against civilians --- just in the last five years! How blind can you be?

We don't have to reach for a conclusion here. We need only believe what the leaders of Islamic states actually say and do.

There is simply no equivalence between modern Christianity and modern Islam.

Just by selecting certain statements made in the book, you can do the same thing with the bible, meaning Amy Alkon is full of shit. (Phil)

If your point is that modern Islam is just as peaceful as ancient or Medieval Christianity, I agree. But that is to say the Islam is not peaceful at all.

Christianity had a Reformation. Islam didn't. There is simply no equivalence between modern Christianity and modern Islam.

We Americans are so ignorant of world history. especially the one's living in small towns (red-neck types.)

Why do Muslims hate us, because of our policies towards them. Our government has a blind faith policies towards Israel which to them is one sided. We have created a BIG MESS in the middle-east and now paying for it.

Just remember as human being no one wants to harm another human being, but if push come to push, then they will push.

So lets remember if you want respect from others you have to give respect first to them.

For the sake of our country, I beg all my fellow Americans not to make the same mistakes that have been made repeatedly throughout history against races and religions. (Adnane)

Where Muslims have been allowed to become a majority, they have oppressed every other religion and women. Every country.

Nation-states have a vital national interest in preserving their way of life, their culture. A Muslim majority, or even a large Muslim minority, will harken the end of liberal democratic rule in the US.

We've seen what's happening in Europe.

He's christian you idiotic bigots. Give it a break already.

Arg. I suppose no one here is really listening, but I've got to say this anyway. All this stuff about Islam above is misleading, and much is inaccurate. You're not talking about Islam the religion, you're talking about Islamism the political movement. Proponents of Islamism would like you to think that their interpretation of the Koran, etc. is the only TRUE interpretation. But it's not. And it bears no ressemblance to how Islam has been interpreted, and is being interpreted, by most Muslims. By saying the religion (Islam) and the politial movement (Islamism) are one and the same, all you're doing is furthering the agenda of the fascistic Islamists by taking them at their word--by accepting their interpretation as the only possible one. But it's not, any more than the behavior of Joshua at Jericho defines Judaism or the Crusaders define Christianity. If you read the works of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, you'll see that she describes how Saudi-funded fundamentalist Islamists came to Nairobi, where she was growing up, and they transformed her, and many Muslims living there, into fundamentalist Islamics, and it was only a small step from there to Islamism. Likewise, when she returned to Somalia after many years away, she was surprised to discover how much more covered up the women were--they'd been visited by the Saudi-backed fundamentalists, too, who successfully convinced them that the only way to be a Muslim was to do things the Wahhabi way. Of course, Hirsi Ali is still quite critical of Islam--understanding the distinction between Islam and Islamists doesn't mean that one is good and the other bad. You might argue against both. It just means that these are related but distinct and different ideologies, and should not be confused. If you want to condemn Islam, then condemn it for the right things--it's sexist, rigid, inegalitarian, intolerant, sexually oppressive, etc.--not for the things that are not true of Islam in general, but rather are true of Islamism. Also read The Islamist, by Ed Husein--he does a good job of distinguishing between Islam the religion and Islamism the political movement.

Why do Muslims hate us, because of our policies towards them. Our government has a blind faith policies towards Israel which to them is one sided. We have created a BIG MESS in the middle-east and now paying for it. (NewAmerican)

Dude. Mohamed commanded his Muslims to kill the Jews long before the establishment of Israel. It's you who lack historical understanding.

If Muslims can legitimately hate us for our policies "towards them" and towards Israel, then why can't we hate Muslims for their policies towards Israel and towards us?

NewAmerican, you've fallen for the Critical Theory lie. You've simply elevated the views of Muslims to unquestionable truth. Not buying it.

Maybe all the Muslim anger is a mistake. Maybe US policies are right and the Muslim desire to exterminate the Jews is wrong. Just maybe.

In any case, we won't settle it by pointing out who's angry, but by giving rational reasons. That's just what your Critical Theory masters have duped you out of.

Did you ever think that maybe George Mason is NOT the best authoritative source on Islam? (the guy died HUNDREDS of years ago!)

How about asking one of the OTHER 900+ million Muslims in the world today who live and behave peacefully + reasonably? Of course, you MIGHT be inconvenienced by the sharp contrast they exhibit to the marginalized depiction of "totalitarian Islam" that you all have seemingly generalized across a world population of 1 billion people.

And no, Saudi Arabia is NOT a beacon of Islam, nor do the vast majority of Muslims worldwide and/or in America adhere to their ultra-conservative brand of Islam.

He's christian you idiotic bigots. Give it a break already. (ed)

Obama is a hate-whitey, black seperatist, black supremacist kind of Christian.

I guess you win the argument, ed.

wow, I always new America wasn't ready for an African American President because although the lynching and segregation has been hidden, it's still very much alive in people's hearts. And now it encompasses african americans, muslim americans, arab americans and anything else that nazi white bigots such as you are no longer willing to "accept." Yes, you are all little hitlers in the making. Maybe you don't stick people in concentration camps, but you definitely have deemed yourselves as supremacists which is at the core of the KKK. Jesus was a man of peace. Muslims actually uphold his values and ideals a lot more than any of you do. They uphold the message he fought very hard to keep. Before quoting George Mason, why don't you do proper research and find someone who is truly knowledgeable about Islam. Americans aren't ready for change, for an african american in office, or to move beyond their backyards to view the world in a different light.

the OTHER 900+ million Muslims in the world today who live and behave peacefully + reasonably (H. Bomb)

Everywhere there are large numbers of Muslims there is disrespect for property rights, legal exceptionalism, oppression of women, a lack of liberal society, and usually wide-spread violence too.

Mike

"feed our rather large energy consumption.."

If we stopped sending billions of dollars to muslims countries to build bridges and mosques and rather encourage US based companies to build alternative energy sourced vehicles, and use our natural gas supplies we could tell the rest of the world to F-off. I still find it hard to believe that we buy oil from Saudi Arabia....here is a country that treats women worse than my dog. I may as well by my gasoline from a pimp down the street.....and hold hands with the pimp while walking thru a garden.

For all you muslim loving people....how do you feel about this story http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,437502,00.html

Also, where were you after 9/11? I did not see any outrage from the American Muslim community.

Maybe you don't stick people in concentration camps, but you definitely have deemed yourselves as supremacists which is at the core of the KKK...Americans aren't ready for change, for an african american in office, or to move beyond their backyards to view the world in a different light. (Jenny)

Jenny that's dumb. It's analogous to calling the powers that fought against the Nazis "intolerant of others."

I certainly do not argue that any race or religion is supreme. However, I do claim that the US way of life, it's culture, it's economic system, it's liberal society are superior to anything else in the world.

You call it bigotry when we advocate for liberal governance and society as against sharia. Do you see the insane inversion of meaning? Do you get that you are a victim of some semiotic madman?

For all you muslim loving people....how do you feel about this story http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,437502,00.html

Also, where were you after 9/11? I did not see any outrage from the American Muslim community.

That's pretty lame Jack. Yeah still upset that you didn't see outrage from teh American Muslim Community? Are you blinded to that as well? Muslims did speak out after 9/11, but guess what, they were as victimized as you and me. They lost loved ones in those towers and were terrorized as well as you because guess what jack, they're American. You're the victim because you are not open minded and unwilling to read anything beyond FoxNews Commentary which is clearly biased.

And to claim that everywhere there are Muslims there is disrespect to women and properties is another example of closed off white bigots that have NEVER traveled beyond the borders of their countries to experience other cultures and how they truly live.

Jenny....you got me...thanks for teaching me.

Please name a place where muslims do not consider women to be property....???...I'm waiting?

I rest my case.

Campbell Brown asks - Why should it matter if he is a Muslim? What a foolish question. Because if he is a GOOD Muslim, and if a movement of dedicated muslims ever took hold, women like her would never be on the air and in fact would stand a good chance of having their vaginas sewed shut at a young age. Think I'm being extreme? Read first hand account of Ayaan Hirsi Ali- her book Infidel. Ask why this woman is in the US right now. She is in hiding from Muslims in Europe and Africa who want to KILL HER for telling people what happened to her as a young girl. She is no fool- she ended up as a Dutch parliamentarian. I am not afraid of Muslims taking over the US- at all. But I would be completely opposed to Muslims being in leadership. READ THE QURAN!

Our government will sleep with anyone to further their cause to stay in the office. Look what they did with Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Iran , etc. Our own government was so friendly with them and now they call them terrorist.

And our own white government lying, cheating, eroding our freedom.

As for buying oil from middle east, we have no choice because we do not have oil. Only way we can not buy middle east oil is to let go of our big cars and SUVs. and reduce the number of these to one or two per family.

All this discussion about Obama being a Muslim is keeping people from actually learning about the issues. You are not serving any American voters by prolonging this red herring.

People keep trying to compare Christianity to Islam as a scary movement. Here's the difference: A Christian who goes to Christ's extremes in the Bible is the ultimate peace loving sacrificer (the abortion clinic people are wack jobs NOT following the bible)
A Muslim who goes to Mohammed's extremes is a killer of infidels and an abuser of women. Read the Bible and then the Koran. Or if you won't go to that effort, SHUT YOUR IDIOTIC mouth since you don't know what you're saying.

And to claim that everywhere there are Muslims there is disrespect to women and properties is another example of closed off white bigots that have NEVER traveled beyond the borders of their countries to experience other cultures and how they truly live. (Jenny)

Really? My work in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and UAE don't count? My time in Indonesia and Mindanao doesn't count? My trips to Muscat and Djibouty and to Nigeria don't count? My trips to Jordan and Egypt don't count?

I guess you'll only count my trips to Israel, huh?

My views derive from my reading of history, especially the history of Diplomacy, from recent events, and also from my own personal travels.

Jenny, you're a self-important little prig. When did your experiences become so authoritative. I'm not buying arguments from authority from you. I've got reasons and evidence. You don't.

Jack,

There's a place called the U.S. That should answer your question.

Please don't tell me you didn't know there were Muslims living here.

Ha! Ayaan Hirsi Ali? A crook and a liar? That's who you are basing this off of? She turned out to be the biggest hoax. And again, you are basing all of your information on fox news analysts, or anti Muslim writers like Daniel Pipes, move beyond that and pick up a book by Denise Speilberg or Karen Armstrong. Read a different perspective on things before making a judgment. You're so one sided and really uncultured that your views are so ugly and bias and can only cause more bigotry in the world.

oh so you've traveled yet you still view the world from a peep hole. Amazing. And you know Jack, I've never insulted you, the fact you have to insult me to get your point across is very telling.

You are really an ignorant cunt aren't you?

All religions are way to control your mind, society and people.

Boy, Christianity was really a open and free society during the middle ages, inquisition, 1600's, the time of Martin Luther etc...

What a moron.

One thing to remember is that Obama was a Muslim as a child, and says he converted. Whether this is true or not, this is how the Muslims see it. This results in a stronger hatred towards America, and Al Qaida recruitment will go up.

All of you people are nuts.

"All religions are way to control your mind, society and people."

Very few people can see this as brainwashing becomes apparent at an early age. The brain absorbs what it is given from what is percieved as a trusting source.

Religion is evil.

Abhishek....so you would be okay if your family decided not to be muslims anymore? Tell me you'd be okay with it.

I can not believe how many people on here are speaking out against this...I am just guessing that most of you are Republicans...which is supposed to be the party of limited government...but I am sure you all are also for the Federal government setting regulations on what a woman can do with her body, defining marriage, and now...telling you that you can not be a certain religion to be president...give me a break you are all statist...The CONSTITUTION states that someone has to be 35 and been born in the US to be president...Obama fits the qualifications, so like him or not if that is who our democratic society of free thinking human beings choses to be their leader, then his religion should not matter as we live in the land of religious freedom as outlined by OUR FOUNDING FATHERS over 200 years ago...you people sicken me.

Where Muslims have been allowed to become a majority, they have oppressed every other religion and women. Every country.

Nation-states have a vital national interest in preserving their way of life, their culture. A Muslim majority, or even a large Muslim minority, will harken the end of liberal democratic rule in the US.
(New American)

That is simply not true. If you look at most Islamic states today, to varying degrees, they run by fascist governments that are as far away from Islam as one could possibly imagine. And what is happening in Europe? People are having healthy debates about issues that concern them. Yes there are nutcases who opt for violence to resolve problems, but these are no different than other non-Muslim and mostly self proclaimed hard line right wing Christian groups who see no problem in killing innocent people to advance their own agendas. You don't see people calling all Christians "terrorists" because of the actions of a few, do you? My point is while some so called "Muslims" carried out horrible acts of violence, let us not forget that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are normal people like everyone else who deserve a an equal and fair shot at living, raising their families and even hold public office in this great country of ours.

"the land of religious freedom as outlined by OUR FOUNDING FATHERS over 200 years ago"

If we lived under those rules then all of the morons who will probably vote (republicans AND democrats) would not be voting. The FOUNDING FATHERS never intended for the general public to vote, and based on some of the comments here (again both sides share equally in stupidity) they were probably right.

Some of you people really need to stop watching fox news so much. That is one religion we would all be better off without.

If you quote Fox news as a source, do not expect intelligent people to take you very seriously.

Religion is the problem, the flavor does not matter. The Farther right any group gets the more dangerous and ovrebearing they become. The more you mix religion and politics, the more people get hurt. Always been that way, always will.

Jesus was a liberal that spoke out against the right wing establishement and against a church that had become entwined with thier government. If his words mean anything then todays Christian right would be a huge disapointment for Jesus as would the hate filled comments in most of these posts.

Dear Muslims and Christians...

...when you all are done fighting....can we have our planet back? The command to conform to your belief systems, whether through the use of physical force or legislative force (which is really just one step removed from physical force) has become tedious, overwhelming, and threatening to civilization. SO, when you're done trying to push your world-view on others using supernatural space-daddies as your argument, do give us a ring.

Question to the fundies; who would you choose: an atheist or a muslim for president?

Jenny, Jack may be an ass for insulting you, but he is right about Muslim countries and their policies. I know because I too have seen it all first hand. Just travel throughout Africa and observe. Your opinion will surely change!
If that is not good enough for you then just try walking down any street on the Arabian peninsula with a Christian bible in your hands. You will not likely make the first block before being attacked by the "Religion Police"!

Abhishek, you don't know of which you speak! You are simply quoting what your religion has taught you to say and therein lies the real liar!!!
Do you not read the news?
Many Muslims have been arrested in the USA for doing to their daughters exactly what she described and it is happening anywhere in the world that you find a Muslim community. I saw it happening in all parts of Africa and the middle east. If you deny it then you are the the criminal!

There is no place in a free society for Muslims or the teaching of Islam.
If you want to continue living in a free society, Muslims or anyone believing in the Koran should never be elected to political office! Wake up America, don't be so quick to forget 9/11.

"Jesus was a man of peace. Muslims actually uphold his values and ideals a lot more than any of you do."

Jenny, that's why Christians appear on tv holding severed heads and threatening the nonbelievers...

As to the racism of not voting for Obama, frankly I'm more concerned about his anti-gun position than the symbolism of a black President, because the Constitution has taken enough of a beating in the last eight years.

I really don't want to vote for somebody who wants to destroy any more of our rights, thanks. The Second Amendment is as sacrosanct to me as the First.

I guess this makes me a third party voter in November. I doubt if it makes me a racist.

“An amendment was proposed by inserting ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that [the preamble] should read ‘A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion’; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindu and Infidel of every denomination.”
Thomas Jefferson-1821

Real Americans would know it should not matter if you are Muslim Christian ot otherwise, as long as you uphold religious freedoms equally. But the government itself was meant to and should be free from any establishment of religion. And as our founding were neither Christian or Muslim, and knew the evil influences of religion upon a society, they separated religion from state.

As Americans it is your obligation to see that philosophy remains and in this way, you avoid ever being taken over by Islam with Sharia Law or Judeo-Christian Value, Hindu, or any other influences.

Uphold and defend the Constitution.
If it makes a difference for you, try reading before you call yourself a Real American

P Ray, I'm sorry you feel that way, but is simply not true. I believe that countries today in power are not "islamic" since most are miltary, fascist governments or monarchies. Just go back in history to the time of the Ottoman Empire where Christians, Muslims, Jews, and all religions lived in harmony. The time when the dark ages blinded europe and the americas and people would seek refuge in a society that was tolerant and accepting. Are we kidding ourselves to ignore that Christian Rule under Fernand and ISabel was worse (persecuting and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people because of their faith jews or Muslims) or that the dark ages were indeed dark because of radical christian rule?

And you don't see that he majority of pedophiles we are chasing are indeed white christian males. Just check out your local pedophile listings and you may just find out that John Smith your neighbor was one just a few years back.

I for one am not a right wing nut and I do not worship Sean Hannity or go to the left. I am a free thinker and I call it as I see it. Religion is dangerous because it controls the mind and no longer allows free reasoning. I for one would much rather have an atheist run my country. I want someone who cares more about the people and planet then some nut job praying to an imaginery genie.

What has caused the majority of wars in history? Religion, which is just a facade for greed and power mongers.

close Jack. It wasn't religion, but that's a major subset of what really has cause all the wars: Dogma.

Campbell Brown raised the question:

"When did that [being Muslim] become a disqualifier for higher office in our country?"

The real question at stake is...
why is being Christian a prerequisite to become President?

That's the real problem with this country... not only did we neglect to allow both women, and black people the ability to vote in the past, now the problem is that Chrisianity is somehow representative of this amalgam of diversity that we call "the melting pot" of the world. For some reason I think this is the next bubble to burst real, real soon.

Thank goodness for the Constitution and the wall of separation. You people scare the hell out of me... Muslim and Christian alike.

Although I recognize the dangers of militant islamism (frankly, militant anything is a concern for me), I don't at all get the idea that all muslims are fanatical islamists. Sure, some fanatics wish this were the case, wish there was one correct way of reading the Koran, even fundamentally believe this to be true, but wishing something doesn't make it so.

For instance, there are evangelical Christians who believe the Bible is meant to be read and interpreted literally. They believe that all Christians should share this interpretation. And yet, here I am, with completely different ideas of my own.

It would be awfully unfair of me to assume that I can exist as an individual with beliefs different from those of my co-religionists but not accept that adherents of other religions share this capacity for independent thought.

Scott...what you have to ask your self is; will the evangelical christian kill me for not believing in the bible? The answer is...probably not. Will a muslim kill you for not believing in the QRAN? In many place in the world the answer is yes. So why should I be tolerant of any ideology that is being forced upon me and threatens death to those who do not partake?

Wow, so many fanatics here hating muslims.
I wonder how christians would feel if society hated them just because some crazy terrorists did something in the name of christianity.
Wake Up! The tables can turn very easily, Society can turn on you too!!

Jack - actually, no, that's not what I have to ask myself. I have to ask: "how can I get through life retaining the ability to look at myself in the mirror?" For me, that requires giving people the benefit of the doubt. Even the people who don't extend the same benefit to me. Sometimes, if you want things to be better, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard first.

Plus your question is premised on an utterly false choice. I know this because I talk to Muslims every single day and not one of them has ever tried to kill me.

I don't have any muslim friends. If you did, and they were true muslims following the koran like they are supposed to, you would be friends with someone who wanted your death. I've read the koran. There's no shrinking violet there. All infidels (non-muslims) must be converted or die. That simple. So, unless you want to be muslim, you can't have muslim friends.

Christianity is not the same, and to compare them is ignorance. Christians, by definition, believe in the teachings of Christ. The new testament here, people. No violence. And christians agree to your right to live and not be christian. They may believe you're going to hell, but they won't send you there early.

Psychos grab onto all sorts of excuses for their behavior. Some use christianity. That's not the same as every muslim being told it's their job to kill the infidels.

There is no moderate islam, to quote Amy. There are muslims who follow it, and muslims who are lapsed. You can not be a muslim and be moderate.

"Wow, so many fanatics here hating muslims.

I don't hate muslims, I just hate their religion along with all religion. Religion is a parasite that eats awat at the brain.

Man looks into the Abyss, and there's nothin' staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character, and that's what keeps him out of the Abyss.

I know this because I talk to Muslims every single day and not one of them has ever tried to kill me.
Posted by: scott

Scott, ask your muslim freinds a question.

"Why do you consider the teachings of a pig fucking peice of dog shit pedophile like mohomad sacred?"
Also show them a picture of a man labeled mohomed fucking a pig - and then let us know how they react

I don't think anyone here hates Muslims. I myself feel pity for them in that they must submit to an incredibly vile, anti-liberal, ideology.

I find it depressing reading so many comments where people say "religion is the problem" and make no distinction between beliefs. Facile thinking. I suggest that they try to look at the situation from a practicing muslim's point of view instead of their ridiculous Western "people are people" approach, which, in my opinion, is incredibly cloistered. I'll just mention that under the Caliphate "people of the book", that is Jews and Christians, were allowed to live as "dhimmis", that is second class citizens according to the Sharia. So when an atheist blames strife with the Muslim world on Jews or Christians (as many of you have above), he may well do to remember that it will in fact be the atheists, Hindus, Buddhist, Wiccans, etc. that will be genocided first under a new Calif. But don't take my word for it; read the Koran and the Hadiths, listen to world leaders of Islamic jurisprudence, and read about the millions of Hindus killed under the conquest of Northern India. Look at what is happening in Southeast Asia today.

Mike,

A little late but I got caught up with things. First off, I am an atheist and do not believe in religion. The fact is, all religions are not the same. Islam is an evil doctrine. Hopefully, most Muslims do not follow their religion as Muhammed meant it to be followed. I hold hope for Muslims, not Islam.

Jenny,

What a load of crap. I have read Karen Armstrong's lies and distortion of history. She actually had the nerve to state that Muhammed never started offensive wars against the lands outside Arabia when he clearly did. She also had the nerve to state that there was no anti-semitism before Israel. You do know the Palestinian Mufti was in league with Hitler right? I would suggest you read biographies of people like Martin Lings or other Muslims to actually get the truth. Read four of five biographies from various sources. If Muslims practice Islam the way Muhammed meant it to be then they are a threat to our very existence ... but I hold out some hope that Muslims can attain enlightenment just as most Christians and Jews have today.

"Just go back in history to the time of the Ottoman Empire where Christians, Muslims, Jews, and all religions lived in harmony." This has to be the dumbest statement I have ever read. Jews and Christians lived in peace as long as they paid the Jizya and accepted inferior status. If they didn't, they were killed. They were dhimmis. Is this your best example for modern day existence? I used to be friends with a few Muslims in my university days until I realized that they actually agreed with and defended the "poll tax" and dhimmi status for non-muslims. You are a useful idiot ...

One last comment about Armstrong's stupidity. She goes on the entire book apologizing for and putting Muhammed actions into historical context and then finishes by informing the reader that he "is a prophet for our time". Make up your mind ... were his actions and words appropriate for 620AD or today??? Anyone not seeing this is either extremely biased or mentally deficient.

Are all these people real? Besides the ones who are here every day, I mean?

Luljp: Since I try to handle myself like an adult and a gentleman, I would never speak to anyone that way. It's not hard to imagine why people have problems with you if you insist on being as insulting and provactive as possible all the time. So thanks for that really helpful suggestion but I think I'll stick with my approach of treating people with respect.

Momof3: I'm not sure how considerable your background in theology and divinity studies may be, but it seems to me that your reading of the Koran conforms exactly to the interpretation peddled by the fanatics and extremists we all revile. There is, as you may have encountered by reading the various muslim moderates and academics who write on these subjects, other interpretations of the Koran that don't require the mindless slaughter of innocents (in the same way that, say, some modern-day Christian scholars don't consider the Old Testament laws of Leviticus to require the present-day stoning of adulterers).

Personally, I find it interesting that you would favour the interpretation pushed by the fanatics, in spite of the evidence of very mainstream muslim adherents all around you. Perhaps an indication that you embrace intolerance a little too enthusiastically.

Finally, an observation that, sadly, a lot of people on this thread seem to live by the philosophy: "Tolerance Starts With You (Not Me)".

crid - Are all these people real? Besides the ones who are here every day, I mean?

yes.

I'm real ... I think.

Scott, the old testament is refuted in the bible iteself. By Christ. Not by theologians thousands of years later. There is no such occurance in the koran. A religion that lived by the old testament would indeed be just as bad as Islam.

Name one country that is majority muslim, that does not treat women as second-class citizens at best. Preferably one you've actually been to. I have a palestinian sister in law, and an Iranian sister in law. One is in her 20's and was born here, her parents immigrated here, and are no longer muslim. One immigrated here herself as an adult, and is no longer muslim. Nor do they support tolerance of the religion. I find that telling, that women who have lived it reject it.

Lots of google alerts, I think, Crid, on muslim topics.

I personally don't think the only problem within Islam is found with those that slaughter innocent civilians. I think the biggest problem is that the so-called moderates seem very illiberal. Unfortunately, most intelligent Muslims that I read or speak to often would like to return to the time Islam was a dominant force in the world. When confronted with the fact that an Islamic regime cannot by nature respect human rights, the Muslims I have spoken to become very defensive. How many Muslims believe that blowing innocent civilians up is the right thing to do? Thankfully I believe those that do are in the minority. How many would vote for an Islamic theocracy that would destroy our liberties. Unfortunately, I believe that number is far greater ... perhaps even a majority. Will this number whither away as Muslims assimilate? They do not seem to assimilate in other countries ... hopefully the American experience is different.

Most of the worlds wars and conflicts are due to aggression caused by Islamists

MOST of the world's wars? If Mason were still alive, I'd want him to document that claim.

As far as I am concerned, Atheism is the perfect answer.

That was my 0.02$.

"Scott, the old testament is refuted in the bible iteself. By Christ."

I've always wondered about that.

Matthew 5:17-19
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Interesting article:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article2917627.ece

Where once Arabic scholars led the world in seeking out knowledge from other cultures, the paucity of leading works rendered into Arabic since the Middle Ages has left gaping holes on the region’s bookshelves.

The United Nations estimates that the entire number of books translated into Arabic in the past 1,000 years is the same as that translated into Spanish every year.

In 2002 a highly critical UN Development Programme report, compiled by Arabs, bracketed this cultural void alongside absent democracy and poor levels of female empowerment as a primary reason why the Arab world was developing slower than comparable regions.

momof3 wrote:

"Scott, the old testament is refuted in the bible iteself. By Christ. Not by theologians thousands of years later. There is no such occurance in the koran. A religion that lived by the old testament would indeed be just as bad as Islam. "

A religion that lives by the Old Testament is Judaism. How do you not know this? Why even come on and leave such a conclusive comment when you obvious know so little.

she probably doesn't recognize that jesus was a jew, either. which is funny, cause she's asserting that jesus was raised in a religion that was as bad as islam.

Were we talking about jews? And last I checked, jews weren't stoning adulterers or taking multiple wives or any number of other things in the old testament. If judaism actually followed all the tenents of the old testament, it would be the worst religion ever. If you've read the rape, and slaughter down to the last child, and slavery, etc in the old testament, you would know that. Past that, my knowledge of judaism is scant at best, I've never read the torah. Don't feel a need to educate myself, since they aren't threatening my country and are peaceful. None of which lessens the fact that islam is, by it's very definition, violent, and anti-woman.

Not that I really care about scott or farker's opinion on much, we are pretty much diametrically opposed on all issues. Thanksfully.

Go to the nearest Muslim living by you. Most likely they are cool and unviolent and have no intentions to "spread their ideology" or have it "rule the world."

As shocking as it may be to your preconceptions, that's how most Muslims in the world are.

The only reason that you don't see or read about them in your daily media diet is because they are not NEWSWORTHY. After all, what's so interesting about perfectly normal, law-abiding people? heh.

Oh, and God(dess) bless Keith Ellison! ;-)

Mashallah!

> Lots of google alerts

Aha! Thanks.

I wondered the same.

Rhetorical question: if, hypothetically, muslims were not violent people at all, but they passed laws that follow thier strict codes, and further, that such strict adherence is required, and, that deviation from these laws would result in harsh pursuit and punishment of such described perpetrators...

...would it still be muslims who are evil for passing such laws because they have the numbers and mindset to do so, or would this make the government evil as a tool used to effect such an end?

I don't much care about anyone's religion, having none myself, but Obama's so willing to be all things to all people. I don't fault his mother and stepfather for passing him off as Muslim in grade school, as it probably made life much easier, but I'll bet that he self-identified as Muslim in his "searching for self" years, which seem to have lasted until he met Michelle.

And boy, is Campbell Brown dumb or what?

Scott with all due respect fuck off, mohomad was a pedophile and there for was a piece of shit, deal with it.

Tell me if you had freinds who worshiped satan and preformed human sacrifice would you keep your opinions to yourself in that situation as well?

mohomad, pig fucking asshole that he was, raped children, and for anyone to consider that to be a good quality in a man obviously proves they are fucked in the head.

> I wondered the same.

We could tell it wasn't the vandal, because the comments were sane and believable, even the assholes.

The wiki page doesn't describe the system. What's to prevent a blogger from dropping names, so to speak, to drive traffic?

They were also clearly individual assholes, which are fine by me. I'm just against the mob of assholes sent over to quash speech.

I'm sure people do drop names to get in people's Google alerts. Earlier in the web days, people put tags into posts to increase page rank, etc. I was never interested in upping traffic by being crafty. I just blog.

Personally, I have one Google Alert: Bank of America Identity Theft. Frankly, I get an annoying amount of e-mail.

momof3: If the Old Testament was refuted, why do they still pass it out along with the New One? Why do christian conservatives point to it to justify anti-homosexual rhetoric? Just asking. Anyway, I'm not here to be the defender of all things muslim. I'm just saying, benefit of the doubt is sometimes warranted. Plus, I know that posters on message boards aren't supposed to have real life experiences, but I've worked in Jordan and Turkey, both were relatively secular places to my eye, many women wore the hijab yes, but many others wore designer jeans, and in both cases my professional counterpart was a woman. Neither seemed particulary terrified or marginalized. I realize that's an anectode and not evidence of a just society, but my point is that things are not as black and white as some here are suggesting.

lujlp: littering your comments with profanity is the sign of a small, frustrated mind screaming to be heard. good luck with that.

Well scott there os just something about a billion people worshiping a child rapist that brings out the profane in me - what can I say I have a conscience.

Its a pity you see nothing wrong with venerating a raper of children.

See, that was a much more appropriate comment and no cussing at all. Again, not my job to be defender of islam, just suggesting that deciding that all Muslims are evil incarnate is not likely the way to bridge the divide between us.

> appropriate comment and
> no cussing at all.

Loojy gets on my nerves, but you seem like a tremendous priss.

Also Tom, I worry that you suffer from shitty, cocksuckingly faulty thinking:

> deciding that all Muslims are
> evil incarnate is not likely
> the way to bridge the divide
> between us.

Presuming that a man so attentive to the power of language would never deploy a clumsy cliché, you should be told that many of us aren't interested in "bridging the divide" with the Muslim faithful. We will, at best, expect those believers to observe the boundaries of modern American Christians, who know they'll face a shitstorm of opposition if they get too mouthy.

You might be forgiven for your presumption... The Obamaniacs share it, prattling incessantly about "unity". (And "hope", which we'll cover on another day.)

Also. see this clip beginning at 3:50.

Whoops, Sorry, that was Scott, not Tom. I feel bad. So many new friends.

There' an entire Wikipedia page on "Christian terrorism" and the various violent acts they commit in the name of their ideology.

Now, I'm not saying that someone oughta go and whip up an identical condemnation piece of the Christian faith as the Goddess has done to Islam here, because that would be just as stupid as all the over-generalized anti-Islam sentiments here. Rather, I'm just using that to show how irrationally retarded it is to attribute the actions of a marginal few to an ENTIRE faith as broad and diverse as Islam and/or Christianity. (should we now condemn Christianity after Joseph E. Duncan III was just convicted of torturing and molesting a 9yo boy on video while reciting the Lord's Prayer and referring to God and the Devil via Christian connotations?)

Just because some dumb-ass Muslims commit crimes in the name of their religion does NOT mean that other adherents to the same faith are similarly flawed. Also, just because you're a bomb-chucking terrorist does not make you any MORE devout of a Muslim than a peaceful-yet-adherent one. But don't take my word for it... Again, I tell you to go to any local DEVOUT Muslim family or even an Imam around you and see that for yourself.

Being a journalist, Amy, it'll sure help you a lot more to actually have knowledge of what you're trying to talk about. Broaden your scope of Islam and you'll see it is no more/less messed up than any other major religion.

I've confused the two of them as well Crid.

But in this instance I agree with scott, I fell my comment about his pitiful lack of basic humman decency was indeed appropriate

HBomb crack open a bible and show me one passage that commands christians to kill those who sin or those who refuse to convert.

Because Amy has provided dozens of such quotes from the koran

> Just because some dumb-ass Muslims
> commit crimes in the name of their
> religion does NOT mean that other
> adherents to the same faith are
> similarly flawed.

Why chance it? They're reading from the same playbook, one much less amenable to interpretation and dilution than the Bible and Christian belief. And understand, by the reading of the books, they're not the "criminal"... You are. This seems difficult for people to understand.

Second Hitchens clip in one day! Start this one at about 2:50.

lujlp wrote:
HBomb crack open a bible and show me one passage that commands christians to kill those who sin or those who refuse to convert.

You're kidding, right? (close your eyes and drop your finger anywhere in the 20th chapter of Leviticus)

Still, pointing out absurdities in Christian scripture (or ANY religion's scripture) is beyond the point that I'm trying to make: Islam is no more/less messed up than any of the other major world religions.

Crid, thanks. It must be really irritating when someone refuses to engage with you on the third grade level to which you've become accustomed. I know that basic politeness isn't all that common on the web, but I'm not about to lower my standards to make you feel better about yourself.

"We will, at best, expect those believers to observe the boundaries of modern American Christians, who know they'll face a shitstorm of opposition if they get too mouthy." Great, lets talk boundaries. My whole point, back to the top, was that people shouldn't believe that there is only one type of Muslim. I don't think that point is incompatible with yours, and in fact, we should try to be supportive of people whose interpretations of islam align with our own views on how religion fits into a secular society. But feel free to persuade me. Maybe you can do it without resorting to personal insults?

luljp: I have a pitiful lack of human decency simply because I don't feel its right to dismiss a billion people out of hand because they pray to the wrong god? I try, but I just cant stop thinking that you're sitting alone in your basement shaking uncontrollably with rage and blogging about how much better things were when only white men in America had the vote. So go ahead and get one more shot in, because I am fully done engaging with you.

Anyway, this whole debate has descended into a really silly question of which two thousand year old laws are worse. And all this talk of child rape and nary a mention of our mormon friends in texas. Funny that.... Equally appalling behaviour, I would think?

HBomb: thanks for your balanced and reasonable comments.

Anyway, I'm not new. I've commented on Amy's blog and advice before.

Scott you have a pitiful lack of humanity because you see nothing wrong with people worshiping a god whos number one guy raped a child.

You say you respect others belifs? How can you respect someone belif in something they refuse to analyze?

And how is sex with a child an admirable quality?

Also leviticus applys to jews wandering the desert, not christians try again

> It must be really irritating when
> someone refuses to engage with
> you on the third grade level

You mean like offering sarcastic "thanks"?

lujlp wrote:
Also leviticus applys to jews wandering the desert, not christians try again

Precisely! Leviticus' violent language was validly applicable in the context of persecuted Jewish nomads at the time it was written... Just like how parts of the Quran were also applicable during the time it was written for Arabs who were being attacked by surrounding tribes!

Also, I find it funny that you say Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians, especially when it is the most-cited scripture by hard-right Christians when condemning homosexually.

How about you try again. ;-)

Also, the Mohammed/Aisha (9yo bride) thing obviously oughta be looked at in the context of 7th century Bedouin (Arabic nomads) life. Seriously, it's not like Muhammed did that last year or something. (what's the time-related equivalent of "ethnocentrism?")

Lastly, look at what's written in the 5th-to-last Surah (#109) of the Quran. Sure, it might sharply contrast with parts you've selectively cited, but it's not like the Bible is perfectly consistent either.

Bottom line:

Bottom line: Every major world religion has its beautiful aspects and its susceptible aspects that can be twisted by assholes to do evil. So, stop singling out Islam.

*homosexuality

HBomb, the bible is reputed to be written by man, the quran is the word of god copied down by mohomed as an angel spoke

the bible is considered dated and open to interpritation by christians, the quran is condidered timeless and not open to interpritation

Do you see the difference?

lujlp wrote:
the bible is considered dated and open to interpritation by christians, the quran is condidered timeless and not open to interpritation

Funny, because if that was the case, there would only be ONE SECT of Islam, rather than multiple varying ones — just like there are in Christianity! :-O

Amy Alkon wrote:
[a buncha dumb shit]

Funny how you think I know little about Islam yet you're the one writing a completely skewed "article" about it based on your exposure to a marginal, extreme portion of the faith.

Hell, even if I did need to learn about Islam, your article would be among the last places I would turn to.

As for my knowledge on the subject: my entire family has lived, worked, and even celebrated holidays side-by-side with Muslim folk (even strict ones, with the hijabs and beards and 5x daily prayers) and Imams for decades. What have you done to gain first-hand knowledge of the faith + culture? It sure sounds like nothing, since you've stated only "somewhat secular" Muslims who "have never read the Quran and don't really know what it says" are the only ones who aren't terrorists or aspiring ones.

I have no problem with you being an atheist (personally, I'd never follow any of the Abrahamic religions), but I do have one with you being a grossly misinformed and overgeneralizing impulse-blogger. You're the classic stereotypical journalist: you speak at length about something (in this case: the entire Islamic faith) which you know only minimally about. (the Stanford J-school is offering full tuition rides — go and get some help!)

This Friday, go to your local Mosque undercover (i.e. pretend you're a Muslim, not a Jihad-patrolling "journalist") and see what murder-inciting stuff is preached there. Then, you'll start having some credibility.

Also, it's hilarious to see you holding up figures from the 7th century (Mohammed + Aisha) to 2008 standards of living. I guess that explains why you can't think outside of your 'tard tunnel that maybe not ALL devout Muslims condone child-fucking and "disbeliever"-killing in this day and age.

In the meantime, I'll set up some hidden surveillance cameras in my devout Muslim friends' + acquaintances' places to see if they indeed are "playing me like a Wurtlizer" secretly are plotting an Islamist takeover of the West. ;-)

foolish brimstone-haired infideless! your puny advice column is no match for our allah-assisted invasion! no one will ever believe you or suspect that i and my fellow partners-in-kufi are actually plotting a jihadi hit job on your entire hemisphere!

soon your whole country will be ours and our world-wide islamist takeover will be nearly complete!

muahahahahahaaaa!

MUAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAAAHAHAAAAA!!!!!

MUUUUUAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

asif wrote:
MUUUUUAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn, Amy... I stand corrected.

You win. :-\

HBomb - there are nearly 4000 recognised individual sects of chritianity

Know how many divisions there are in islam? FOUR.

Nearly 85% Suni, nearly 15 Shia and less then 1% for the two other recognised sub sects.

And their bone of contention is not the doctrine of their precious book but of the sucsession of the faiths leaders after the death of mohomad.

Now in christianity the differences between the various sects is how the interpret the passages in the bible

Also take a look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_Muslim_Population_Map.png
Notice that all the areas with a large muslim population are global hotspots for all sorts of violence?

I find it funny that you say Leviticus doesn't apply to Christians, especially when it is the most-cited scripture by hard-right Christians when condemning homosexually.

That's not true, at least in my experience. Every time I've seen Leviticus cited, it was by anti-religionists who were pointing out that the same passages which forbid homosexuality also forbid things like beard-trimming, so why don't Christians care about that? The fundy Christians of my acquaintance have replied that the rules in Leviticus only apply to Jews, and that Christian antipathy toward homosexuality is based on writings in the New Testament. (I forget where exactly; one of the Epistles, I think.)

Amy although asif...err h.bomb was totally out of line, he did make a point that when you are accusing Mohammad of being that way you are forgetting the historical context of the time. It was not uncommon to marry at a young age, additionally Aisha actually had another suitor at the time. THe point is, you can't deny that a lot of Mohammad's actions, character, and influence were very positive in a region where burying young girls alive, and tribal warfare was very common. So, it seems that you have done research, which is great, but taking things out of context in that way you have is an unfair assessment. I really can't change your mind, especially via comments on your blog, but we can definitely agree that not all the information out there on Islamic history is objective.

Jenny no one is diputing political marriges went on all the time.

But Historians place the rape, excuse me, consummation(much nice word right?) around 622 after the move to Medina - but mohomed was born in 570 which made him FIFTY FUCKING TWO

For those who cant count that means he was FOURTY THREE years older than his NINE year old "bride"

Tell me Jen would you ever sell your 6 yr old to a 49yr old?

Of course not Amy, but again, it was very common that it would happen at that TIME. That's my point, NOWADAYS it's unheard of to marry someone 20, 30 or 40 years older than you, (although Hollywood has proven us all wrong on that:), but at that time, any distinguishable individual would be honored to marry their young daughters to an honorable and respected man. And he was honorable and respected, even his enemies at the time contended that.

IF we go back 1500 years ago we can see that women across the world were treated horribly. Greek, Roman, and Byzantine, the so called super powers at that time, oppressed women and treated them as 10th class citizens. In the arab regions, men would bury daughters alive because they were so ashamed of having girls. I'm painting a picture of women's place across the world back then. So was it unheard of that an older man marry a young girl? not at all, it was an acceptable practice throughout the world at that time.

But what i want you to really look at Amy is how did MOhammad treat is wives? There's no dispute that he treated them all with respect and love contrary to the way wives were treated throughout the region.

So when I say we can't take things out of context, I agree you might not agree with him and his teachings, but the historical significance of his marriages especially to Aisha are not disputed. The time, the era, the culture all accepted this. And I would really hope that you would look at how he dealt with his wives at that time rather than focusing on an event that was widely acceptable and encouraged during that era.

Finally, Americans have a lot of anger against Muslims, but many times it's displaced.

Let's go in our history just 50 years ago when African Americans were lynched and treated as 2nd class citizens. With our alienation of Muslims and such deep anger, aren't we repeating history? There have been violent acts against Muslims since 9/11, and we tend to paint all Muslims with the same brush. That's unfair. A lot of the arguments above are focused on historical events taken out of context or Qur'anic verses taken out of context.

I think 50 years ago, some white racists may have posed similar arguments about their African American neighbors.

You can read the Qur'an and extract whatever conclusions you want adn that applies to any text out there. So if we want to move beyond our own feelings of hatred and anger we have to attempt read history and teh qur'an with a grain of tolerance and the willingness to seek other opinions about certain events or verses.

I hope we can continue to have healthy discussions about issues without putting down cultures or demonizing over a billion people.

I think if today's Muslims are using the example of Mohammed to justify pedophilia, then that is one thing. But if you are going to judge the actual event from 1500 years ago, you should probably judge it against the cultural norms of the day.

Probably regrettable choice of analogy: My great-grandmother was married at 14. Would I want my daughter to marry at that age? No, of course not. But it was the Depression and there were fewer options available to people and the world was a different place. My great-grandmother raised a large family and lived happily into old age. And she would not have tolerated people who knew nothing of their circumstances retroactively deciding that her (somewhat older) husband a child molestor.

At no point in history since humans became humans has it ever been the norm or ok to have sex with a 9 year old. Even many monkeys don't reach sexual maturity that fast and we have slowed our development down considerably since we were monkeys.

If you want to compare muslims to another religion, compare what muslims do NOW to what jews or christians do NOW. Only one religion still stoning women.

Interestingly, there is wikipedia main page article today on King David II of Scotland, who was married at the age of 4 to Joan of England (aged 7).

Weird shit happened in the old days...

> Probably regrettable choice
> of analogy

Nope, it was right on target... Nicely done. Knowing now that you have considerable powers of reflection available to you, it's difficult to understand why you need to be such a dick.

Clearly some of you aren't really reasonable to discuss with since you have to answer all of my comments with vulgar language and horrible accusations. I think I've made my point about how I feel Islam is wrongly perceived, and I would wish that you would begin to expand your horizons in order to avoid vilifying over a billion people across our world. I guess once you pass the age of 50 you become so set in your ways that it is impossible to be tolerant.

In case you aren't sure, Wikipedia describes tolerance as a term "used in social, cultural and religious contexts to describe attitudes and practices that prohibit discrimination against those practices or group memberships that may be disapproved of by those in the majority.

Conversely, 'intolerance' may be used to refer to the discriminatory practices sought to be prohibited. Though developed to refer to the religious toleration of minority religious sects following the Protestant Reformation, these terms are increasingly used to refer to a wider range of tolerated practices and groups, such as the toleration of sexual practices and orientations, or of political parties or ideas widely considered objectionable."

I rest my case :)

lol, I guess "I rest my case" was a bit tweenish. But I still think my way of thinking, however multi culti or whatever you think it is, is a lot healthier in this world.

You have your grievances with Islam, and I have to wonder what on earth you've read all of these decades on the religion. Yes there is a bunch of negative propaganda out there against Islam, but there is a lot of positive text as well. And I've read the Qur'an, met with hundreds of Muslims, and their ideology is a continuation of the Judeo-Christian tradition carrying on many of the values of those faiths. If you hate Islam you can indeed demonize the people and the faith to no end, as you can demonize any religion or group of people, etc.

And that's my point. When does the demonization of over a billion people end? When does this persecution of faith end? And what's the point anyways? Each argument you've made goes back to the central issue that you are viewing this faith from a very narrow perspective. Dhimma is actually a term that is translated "those under the protection of the Prophet" and a tax was issued to them because they don't have to pay zakat like Muslims did at the time.

I mean we can go at this back and forth of how you perceive and read history, and the honest truth. You don't understand Islam, and I don't believe you ever will. But I do hope you will one day have a healthy discussion with a scholar on Islam that doesn't really share your views because you need enlightenment.

The problem with this post and blogs that share some of your views is that there is no room for tolerance or "hey maybe you have a point." it's more like: "I don't agree with you and I don't know what to say so I'll swear at you." Anyways, I'm sure you're sick of my relentless attempts to convince you, and I must be extremely naive to think you or any of the readers will be convinced, but I can only hope and try. I believe that the American people are a lot more open than most other countries across the globe.

are you that cynical Amy? I don't work for anyone. I'm just concerned by your comments.

And those 3 sites that you listed twist the truth and contort realities. Are you basing your information on some racist sites that have shown nothing but hate to Muslims? IF that's your reference to these outlandish claims on Islam, than you are truly an intolerant person; and it's hard for me to believe that because you work hard to build your community and reach out to at-risk children as I've noticed on your blog.

I can't really discuss anything with you if you truly think that those 3 sites speak the truth. THey produce lie after lie about Muslims continuing to spill fear and hatred in the heart of many. Muslims are very tolerant of all religions and you are claims are false. I'm baffled to see that someone who has supposedly read so much about Islam understands so little.

WHy don't you try some other websites or other books by people that are more objective? John L. Esposito or Karen Armstrong offer different perspectives and when you hold their book, just be objective because they reality is you've got it all wrong.

I will read the piece Amy if you promise to read objectively some of the material I suggested. Are there radicals in the Islamic faith who will call for the killing of non Muslims, yes, as there are radicals in any faith (vigilantes in Jerusalem who are beating people who don't dress and act according to the traditions). That shouldn't be a sentence on the faith itself. Good luck to you and the at-risk program you are developing.

Again Amy, you are condemning over a billion people based on the actions of a minority. I mean come on, we can't be that unfair and limited in focus. What we can't go back in history and see that there are nutcases that take things to an extreme in every religion, but why are we condemning Islam? It's convenient for us now isn't it? I mean that verse is taken out of context. Do you realize that one verse from the qu'ran is translated into pages upon pages of commentary and explanation? Can you truly just pick a verse and say this is what Islam means? can we do that to any religion or people or text? It's unfair and honestly it's a shameful act.

Honestly Amy, Jihadwatch is not a credible source. They purposely take anything done in the Islamic world and show you a limited view of why and how. Their intentions are purely evil on those sites with political and immoral motivations. Similar to those who send that horrible documentary titled Obsession in SWING states...now if that's not political motivation and we can't see right through it then what is. No, the best is there disclaimer "we aren't discredited the entire faith" well clearly they got to you and many of their viewers and readers.

I watched 15 minutes of that film and was ready to puke. Are you seriously going to paint an entire faith with that horrible brush. Historically, Islam has been very tolerant of all faiths. You can tell me dhimma till the day of judgment, but again, historically jews, christians and other faiths were happy living under Islamic rule. THey didn't pay zakat, so were asked to pay separate tax.

My problem is that you are looking at really really bias sites for information, and you are condemning over a billion individuals for the actions of a few. How many make up a al qeada, a hundred thousand (if even)? so for that number of people you are blaming a billion people that they are out to get you? That's simply not true.

True Muslims that understand the qur'an and that each ayah comes in a different context, etc. live their everyday lives respecting people, properties, the countries they live in, etc. I think Colin Powell said it best on Meet the Press recently. They live their lives making everyday sacrifices of their time and effort to prepare for the day they believe they will be judged by their lord. THey realize that every action they make they will be held accountable for. If they impact someones life negatively towards Islam, they will be held accountable for that too. They are a spiritual people that find solace in worship and praying and askign forgiveness for their everyday humanly blunders.

So again Amy, I'm sure you were once like me and sites like jihadwatch changed your perspective, but are you really going to believe a bunch of people whose agenda is hatred and politics. Similar people who condemned african americans in earlier in our history, or jews, or japanese. There are people who want to infuse hate because they feel they are better than the rest. Whereas Muslims believe that it's our duty to spread good, which doesn't mean convert everyone, but to do good deeds like you and your at-risk program.

The Qur'an is a comprehensive book but is supplemented by the sayings of the Prophet and of course the commentary and explanations of notable islamic scholars. jihadwatch is not a place to get commentary on the Qur'an. It's bias, skewed, an unfair representation, and ridiculous.

yikes! okay, I thought I could possibly convince you but clearly I can't. I don't have to read any of that to know what you think or what it says because it is like jihadwatch, daniel pipes and any other really anti-Islam text out there. I wish you luck in any of your charity efforts and I don't believe I will try to respond anymore. :) I might swing by and just read some of your any posts and may scream at my computer if there's anything anti-Islam, but most likely hold back on commenting...patience is a good virtue ;)

"Mohammed married his wife Aisha when she was 6, and had sex with her at 9."

Something only the Catholic church would condone. No religion in modern history has protected, promoted and defended pedaphiles more than the CHRISTIAN religion. Time and time Again the church put itself before protecting children. Christians are disgusting phoney people.

it is a fact that moslems ruled country is worst than a communist/fascist country. they used their wealth for evil purposes, ie, to intimidate, to bully people who hate their ideology, to create fear, to punish nonbelivers. to create slums tc..nothing good come out of their people/religion.

nothing good come out from their rule/ religion/people in the long term. the fact that many nonmoslems had contributed to the moslems coffer and to the rise and greed of evil islamism meant that many nonmoslems is as much to be blame for the poverty of many hardworking nonbelievers as well for the loss of many innocent life and the deteriotion of our freedom. their religion have constantly ignored the basic human rights of other poor nonbelievers.
they are only interested in other people wealth and other people labour to further their evil
religion agenda.
they are only interested in using their religion
to manipulate and put us down as unworthy.

the fact that obama is part black itself give me the jitters and the fact that mccain had an black(bangladeshi)adopted child also gave me the jitters. i am not racist and was never racist but the moslems very black evil religion just make the aggressive blacks image look worst than they already are. the blacks, moslems are forever fighting for equal human rights but at the same time denying other people equal human rights. therefore, there is nothing admirable about obama black heritage, even if he is not a moslem. the fact that most moslems have predominantly black bad behaviour. the world should not continue to tolerate this kind of black evil religion which suppress our rights.