Boyfriend gettin' carried away. He's not really from this country, you know....

McCain seems pretty damn sharp to me. That last debate, he was the one who didn't put me to sleep. But I'm sure your friend can make a better neurological diagnosis.

The reason Hitchens and Frum and Brooks and Buckley and the rest don't like Palin is simple: she's not one of them. Problem is, neither are most of America.

Amy,

McCain has released his medical records. All of them. They contain no signs or mention of any form of dementia. McCain's mother is in her late 90's and sharp as a tack.

On the other hand, Obama has refused to release his medical records. His mother died in her 40's and his father in his early 50's. Obama is obviously hiding something or he'd release the records. He also has never released his grades from Columbia. Gee, I wonder why? My guess is that they don't warrant admission to the Harvard Law School. How else could he have gotten in then? What a mystery.... The hyper-partisan and hyper-liberal MSM will not pressure Obama for either. Just like John Kerry refusing to release his military records. If a Repulican candidate tried to pull this he/she would be crucified.

Hitchens is an atheist. He hates Palin because she is a woman of faith. Just like you hate her because she doesn't think murdering children is good for the children, women or society.

This is just more intellectual dishonesty from the left. Much like the bleatings that Palin is too inexperienced to be a VP candidate when she, by any objective standard, is more experienced than Obama. She is also more qualified than John Edwards was in 2004. I'm sure you were wringing your hands about that, Amy. No, wait, he's good on abortion! Nothing to see here...move along people....

I would also note that people like Hitchens steadfastly believe that any God fearing person is a moron.

I'm already getting the "Palin is stupid" comments from my lefty friends. I find it amusing that they would think a woman who won the highest elective office in her state on her own merit, is a dummy. However, the same people think Hillary, Pelosi, Feinstein, Boxer, etc., women who got where they are because of their rich, powerful husbands, possess brillant minds. What a joke.

Liberals should just admit that they think anyone who isn't a liberal is a de facto moron/racist/homophobe, etc.

Well Tom anyone who belives in an all powerful being that sits by and does nothing is a moron.

And anyone who thinks abortion is murder on religious grouds is a moron given that biblical edicts state a child is not alive until it breaths

Anyone who belives a perfect god who created us in his image, yet demands we disfigure our genitlas is a moron

Shall I keep going? Moron.

Loojy, you losin' it or somethin'? You're not sounding as coherent as you usually are.

Gotta split in about 10 minutes. Two funerals, one right after the other, today, same cemetery, so I don't have to go far. One guy, best friend's ex husband, father of their 16-year-old boy. Other guy, heart attack at age 54. I should be so lucky. Not. Sadness abounds. I'm outta here. See yas tomorrow. Everyone take care, 'kay? Love to all,
Flynne

No just tired, had 6 hours sleep in the last few days, insomnia is acting up.

A few more days and my parinoa will kick in - but you alreay knew that didnt you??

What I find amazing about all of this Palin hysteria is this: When confronted with an actual moron running at the head of one ticket, and an intelligent but not fancy talker running as the second on the other ticket, Hitchens seems to decide that the actual moron is the preferred alternative.

Which can mean only one thing. Hitchens is basing his decision on his hatred of religion. He hates God and religion with such intensity that he is unable to think clearly about the choices before him.

Amy, how can one be smart and incurious? Intellect begets curiosity.

You want incurious? Obama. Never once did he think to question why all his friends were agitating for a social and political organization that failed so spectacularly everywhere else in the world during his formative years.

Voting, as always, involves a choice between two less-than-ideal candidates. I look for the candidate who will do the least damage.

I'll vote McCain here, simply because a divided government is a less powerful and less active government. Most of what they do turns out badly. The naivete of the voters who think they can or will actually fix problems astounds me.

One easy example is the competitiveness of our education system since the Department of Education was instituted. The lack of improvement is never their fault, and the answer is always more money.

I don't think he is senile, but I think he is getting desperate and it is making him flounder a bit. I'm not sure he needs to feel desperate, the polls are pretty close, but I think since he lost his momentum he doesn't quite know what to do.

Personally I always thought the purpose of the department of education and no child left behind was to reduce americans back to the intellectual level of serfs

Obama is an idiot, in a scarily smart way. I think he has no real intelligence, but a lot of get-ahead-however-I-can streetsmarts. A bad combination, in that he can't see that his plans have done nothing but fail the world over. Which then makes one think, since he is so good at being for himself, that he does know this, and cares not as long as he gets power.

The incurious catchphrase is tired at best. And pretty hollow. She's not dumb. And she's been too busy doing actual work to be curious in the way I think libs mean, in the introspective, experimental philosophy, write multiple books about myself way.

We've never had a president not believe in God. That's pretty telling, as far as what the majority of the country believes. I think one reason so many fems hate Palin is that she is prolife and didn't kill her kids like they all did, and yet she still has the amazing career too. They were told they could not have it all, and killed the kids to have the career, and are a bit bitter about it. That's the only way to explain the rabid hate. Because when you hate someone that much, it's because you really hate yourself and they remind you of that.

This wroter is an idiot as well, putting someone down one week and endorsing the next. Of course, all writers pretty much seem to be out mroe for themselves than the truth anymore, so that explains that.

And while I'm very impressed at your friend's ability to diagnose dementia via the TV, when no dr has been able to in person, I'd have to disagree with her armchair MDing. He has no signs. Obama might, if you watch his unscripted talking moments. I would like to see hos medical records. I'm more worried abotu someone who had both parents die from disease young, than someone who's mom is still sharp in her 90's. And I'd love to see the man's grades, as well. At least McCain is open about being a lackluster student.

lujlp -

Gee, you called me a "moron". Good one. What are you twelve?

To believe in a Creator doesn't mean one subscribes to any of the big five religions, you know. Just because they are laughably and obviously creations of man doesn't mean that a real higher power doesn't exist.

You can dress up abortion anyway you like, pal. It's murder. Calling the baby a glob of cells is a lie. Most abortions are peformed at about 12 weeks. Why? Because by that time the baby has fingers and toes and a face. Do you know that after abortions they piece the baby back together to make sure they got it all? That's why they usually won't perform abortions earlier than the end of the first trimester. How do you piece together a blob of cells? You can't. But you CAN piece together a murdered baby.

Calling it a "blob of cells" is no different than calling Jews "mud people" to justify the holocaust, or calling Native Americans "Savages" because we wanted their land. Smart people like you can't go around killing other people right, lujlp? So what do you do? You dehumanize them. "Why they aren't really human at all! We can do what we want to them!" How "progressive" of you.

By the way, doesn't Obama believe in God? I guess that makes him a "moron" in your book.

Also, don't mistake the voters for geniuses, or popularity for a sign that popularity is merited. (Amy)

Too true. In a commercial culture it's all too easy to impute genius to the merely popular.

"You can dress up abortion anyway you like, pal. It's murder."

Thanks, I always like to start my day reading an amusing bit of hyperbole that flies in the face of science, logic, and the law of the land.

Much appreciated!

Well Tom anyone who belives in an all powerful being that sits by and does nothing is a moron.

But enough about Obama voters.

I think she's street smart but incurious and uneducated.

Why, because she can't name the Deputy Press Secretary of Bazekistan's third cousins at the drop of the hat? Do you really think a few ambush interviews tell you anything about who she really is?

Besides, I want a leader, not a Jeopardy winner. The only thing Obama's ever led is a horse to water. And it ain't thirsty.

Well tom you ARE a moron, you say - or at least hint that while you belive in a god it is not one of the "laughably and obviously creations of man" and yet you defend the faith of a woman who does.

So you are basically saying that while her faith is a farcifal lie she is entitled to make decsions for me based upon it - and that is moronic

And Obama is a moron for beliving in god.

But back to you if you belive in a higher power but not the one described in any of the religions on earth to day why do you defend the insane policys put forth based of an ideology you think is false?

And if you belive in a higher power,
with no evidence of its existance
and as you say religions are creations of man
Then who do you know how it wants you to live your life? And lets assume that you do know, how do you know thats how it wants anyone else to live their life?

Do you see why I find your reasoning moronic?

Also I see nothing inherently wrong in killing someone else should the situation call for it, I dont see any point to needless cruely but I have no fear of death as it is inevitable and whould feel no qualms about killing someone else if I had to.

As for abortion I see nothing wrong with that either - would you rather they be abandoned? What about the millions of embros that are flushed down the toilet after inviro fertilization?

And what about all the fundie christians who aborh abortion but then turn around and deny people lifesaving medical care beacuse people cant afford it, but oddly enough FORCE life saving medical care on those who can afford it but dont want it?

Gog -

By all means edify me: what is the "science" and "logic" that magicallly turns a child, with a heartbeat, fingers, toes, face, etc. into a blob of cells? Especially for third trimester abortions....Do tell, Gog.

As to the "law of the land" being a justification for mass murder - I would point you to the Dred Scott decision. You know the one where the Supreme Court ("the law of the land") said escaped slaves captured in the north were property to be returned to their rightful owners in the south.... Or how about Plessy v Ferguson, Gog? Separate, but equal? I'm sure the vast majority of Americans thought these to be very sensible opinions when they were released. Do you think they were good decisions? That's what I thought.

The Supreme Court was wrong on these two cases - why can't they be wrong on Roe?

I'm waiting for the "science" and "logic" that dehumanize babies, Gog.....Gog???

"By all means edify me: what is the "science" and "logic" that magicallly turns a child, with a heartbeat, fingers, toes, face, etc. into a blob of cells? Especially for third trimester abortions....Do tell, Gog."

We are not the droids you seek.
Move along.

And take your basket of red herrings and unwillingness to do your own research with you.

lujlp

I don't need to believe in God to know that abortion is wrong. Its common sense. Just like I don't need a God to tell me that its raining...I just have to look out the window.

When have I defended Palin's faith? I defend Palin's right to believe what she wants. Its called religious tolerance. As to her somehow imposing her morality onto you, how is that any different than Obama imposing his value system on me? By supporting the most extreme forms of abortion, (partial birth and voting against legislation to give care to aborted babies that survive the procedure) isn't Obama imposing his value system, his morality, on me?

Seems to me you have no problem with liberals imposing their value system on society because you happen to agree with that value system.

Thanks, Gog. That's what I thought you'd say.

Gog -

So you admit, then, that the entirety of the left's objection to Palin is that she is a woman who is anti-abortion?

That's what I thought. Because Geraldine Ferraro was no genius, and I don't recall anyone tearing her up on those grounds.

"By all means edify me: what is the "science" and "logic" that magicallly turns a child, with a heartbeat, fingers, toes, face, etc. into a blob of cells? "

It is not a magic show. It is Mother Nature doing Her job. The Mother Nature is nothing but biology, chemistry and physics, which is all science. Once you understand it, it all makes sense.

What you just wrote to above happens to cockroaches as well. Why does it become suddenly magic, holy, miracles when it happens to human?

Tom Ive already said Obama is a moron.

But can you seriously not see the difference between denying everyone a choice and letting people make their own choice?

Also have you ever considered that if the religious right wasnt so intent on misleading children about the consequences of sex, and did not consider children some kind of devine punishment for "immoral" behavior there would be fewer abortions?

Tell me who is more evil - the desperate person who was lied to, or the SOBs who lied and prevent people getting access to reliable birth control?

> You can dress up abortion
> anyway you like, pal.
> It's murder.

Presumably then, any woman who's willingly submitted to an abortion belongs in prison... And for a good long stretch, given the forethought required.

No?

> Once you understand it, it
> all makes sense.

You're claiming to "understand it"? That seems immodest.

Sociobiology fanatics do that too.... One Introduction to Biology lecture and they think all the world's mysteries have been answered.

Crid said-

"Presumably then, any woman who's willingly submitted to an abortion belongs in prison... And for a good long stretch, given the forethought required."

How can women be put in prison for something that is legal?

lujlp said-

"Tell me who is more evil - the desperate person who was lied to, or the SOBs who lied and prevent people getting access to reliable birth control?"

They give out free condoms at the free clinic...that's why its called a free clinic. If a woman wants birth control she can go find it in lots of places...for free.

I'm all for using all means at our disposal to prevent unwanted pregnancy. However, we have been talking about abortion. Abortion doesn't prevent pregnancy. It ends pregnancies. Big difference.

"You're claiming to "understand it"? That seems immodest. "

I did not say that. I am too young and immature to say something like that. I still live in my mom's basement.

What I said was once we understood what caused the lightening in the sky, we realized that the God is not angry with us and that made sense.

As the science progress, I think it will eventually answer the question we all are dying to know. "Why am I here?"

Chang -

Abortion is a surgical procedure not "Mother Nature doing her job"

> What I said was

No, actually, I quoted you in context.

> I think it will eventually answer
> the question we all are dying to
> know.

Little fella, be sure and let us know when that happens. In the meantime many of us will find central wisdom through the sources available to us.

> "Why am I here?"

Know also that many of us aren't waiting for someone else's answer to that question. In your own way, you're as presumptively inclusive as Scott is in the nearby thread, and as Obama is in the current campaign, and as Islam is through the proscriptions of the Koran: You think you know what everybody's looking for, and gosh darn it, you have the mechanism to deliver the goods.

some of us know why we're here.

> How can women be put in prison
> for something that is legal?

Good work, Wet Willie! You've signed on to the conventional morality of your age, and we're all glad to have you aboard. You're going to have to take control of that mouth of yours, though, because you obviously don't believe abortion is murder, or it would deserve punishment. As Richard Pryor famously put it, "I don't mess with the big M!"

We'd just hate for you to get involved in cocktail party fisticuffs because of your confusion on this point. Anyway, glad to have you. Comb your hair and carry on.

Tom how in the hell are a couple of underparented underinformed underaged teenagers supposed to get to a free clinic?

Especially in more rural areas?

And what good are condoms to people who have been told that condoms dont work?

And where is a girl supposed to secretly stash a her birth control?

A majority of all abortions would disappear if people stopped lying to children about the responibilites of sex.

But one thing I find particularly interesting, you suggested that teens were responsible for being lied to.

Odd that you werent outraged at the lies which lead to abortion, but at those young people who didnt see thru the lies.

Why is that?

"Thanks, Gog. That's what I thought you'd say. "

No problem. Always ready to help out the lonely trolls.

PS Tom I'm still waiting on how you know gods will when you said no church on earth really represents him.

Amy -

Your argument that those who believe life has intrinsic value should pay for unwanted pregnancies is flawed.

I don't think people should drive drunk, either. Does that mean, because drunk driving is illegal, I have to hang out at the local bar every night at closing and give all the drunks a ride home? Does it mean that I have to foot the bill for a taxi cab to take all the drunks home?

Also, since not everyone goes to college, your assertion that I need to support them through same is hyperbole and frankly, indicative of the weakness of your argument.

You can refuse to accept the moral responsibility that comes with being a proponent of abortion. However, this does not relieve you of that responsibility.

Please explain, Amy, why abortionists generally wait until the child looks like a child before performing an abortion. Its the little fingers, toes, heads, etc. that can be reassembled after the fact to establish that nothing was left inside the mother to cause infection or continue developing.

Have the intellectual honesty to say you support abortion even though it results in a dead child.

Tom -

Do you really want people to take you seriously? Because (remarkably, as your first comment was pretty fucking stupid) you are looking more and more like a fucking moron with every comment.

Have the intellectual honesty to say you support abortion even though it results in a dead child.

No. Why don't you have the intellectual honesty to admit that not everyone (and in this case a very few people) share your frame of abortion. Because guess what moron, I don't.

It's a fucking fetus, not a child.

As one who recently had to deal with the trauma (we really wanted our baby) of considering what to do if some additional testing came back positive for down syndrome, I don't appreciate fucktards who would love to force us to carry such a fetus to term. We were lucky to find out that our discussion was unecessary, that the nurse who initialized the discussion really overstated the risk, that our fetus would not turn out to be a ds baby.

But with one child already, a child with severe ADHD and thus special needs, we could not raise a DS child. If the tests had come out differently, we would have had no choice but to terminate the pregnancy. But fucktards like you want to take that choice away from us. I have one last thing to say to you - and folks who think like you;

Go fuck yourself with a long, sharp knife. Preferably one that is rusty and was just fished out of a dirty toilet. Seriously.

> Have the intellectual honesty
> to say you support abortion
> even though it results in
> a dead child.

I actually agree with Tom about the abortion thing. But reject the phrase "intellectual honesty". There's nothing especially 'intellectual' about it. Plain old-fashioned honesty is good enough for all contexts.

You shouldn't pretend the best truth-telling is only available to people who bring polished apples to the teacher's desk.

> As one who recently had to
> deal with the trauma

Again with the special insights...

> Go fuck yourself with
> a long, sharp...

Guys, bluster is not an argument. see also:

>> "Outrage is not a policy," said Strobe Talbott, who was deputy secretary of state under President Clinton and is now the president of the Brookings Institution. "Worry is not a policy. Indignation is not a policy. Even though outrage, worry and indignation are all appropriate in this situation, they shouldn't be mistaken for policy and they shouldn't be mistaken for strategy."

The reason why people like Hitch and amy have no problem supporting a "Christian" like Obama, versus Palin, is that they do not believe Obama.

The do not believe he joined that big black church because of faith, but to advance his political career.

OTOH they know Palin means what she says, and is authentic. That scares the hell out of them.

What bothers me is that Hitch has drawn big lines between Christianity and Islam, and he has rejected comparisons to violence 500 years ago by Christians does not excuse Islams today.

Yet people like he and Amy do these somesaults to disquise their raw fear of anyone they think is a real believer. Pretend to be a believer and mouth some platitudes and they have no problem. wink wink.

Be honest about your own personal faith or beliefs when asked, and they pull the daggers.

Incurious indeed.

Whatever Amy, by going to that BDS adjective, you show yourself desperate.

I am done at this site, you used to be worth a read. Now you are just predictable.

DuWayne ranted:

"But with one child already, a child with severe ADHD and thus special needs, we could not raise a DS child. If the tests had come out differently, we would have had no choice but to terminate the pregnancy. But fucktards like you want to take that choice away from us. I have one last thing to say to you - and folks who think like you;"

-when have I advocated outlawing abortion? I'm advocating calling it what it is. The reason you can't is because your support for abortion is based upon the myth that you're not killing a baby. Because killing a baby would be murder, right, DuWayne? Just as the Nazi's dehumanized Jews you dehumanize the defenseless unborn to rationalize barbarity.

"Go fuck yourself with a long, sharp knife. Preferably one that is rusty and was just fished out of a dirty toilet. Seriously."

-Ah, the tolerance of the left. How very, very "Progressive" of you, DuWayne.

Amy said:

"It's the job of the police to stop drunk drivers."

And I'm supposed to pay to keep drunk drivers off the streets, right, Amy? It is also society's obligation to take care of those who are incapable of taking care of themselves, isn't it?

If I have to pay to keep drunk drivers off the streets, why shouldn't you pay to care for those who are incapable of caring for themselves?

This isn't Sparta where those believed to be imperfect are left on the mountainside to die from exposure to the elements, Amy. I don't want to live in a "society" that doesn't value human life. Why do you?

What about third trimester abortions, Amy? Particularily, partial birth abortions. Most babies after 7 months can survive on their own. Certainly, a child suffering a partial birth abortion is viable, right?

So, if viability outside the womb is your barometer for what constitutes human life, Amy, you would agree that most if not all late term abortions end a human life? That they are murder?

Ya know tom your refusal to answer question put to you does not endear anyone to answering your questions

lujlp -

"Hello kettle...this is pot"

You are incoherent. Answering your convoluted rants is counterproductive and serves no real purpose.

Enjoy your evening.

Tell me something, kids.
Let's say I get my period really late this month, and it's unusually heavy and painful and gross. In all likelihood, I've just had a miscarriage. (Depending on your source, 20-50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage.)
Should I mourn? Was it a baby? Should I have my blood blobs baptized so they don't languish in purgatory?

> I don't consider a person a person
> until they are living and breathing
> on their own.

How con-vEEEEn-yent. I wonder if this principle came to you before or after you considered the importance of abortion.

I'm staunchly pro-abortion, myself, but I think it's cowardly and evasive to pretend we're not killing people, often recklessly. Lefties shouldn't think of it as a righteous harvest. ("Embryos".)

No pussyfooting!

I think it's pretty telling (and somewhat encouraging) that a number of highly visible conservatives/GWOT supporters are bailling on McSame/Bible Spice.

Either they see the writing on the wall, or they actually have enough integrity to speak out truthfully regardless of the consequences.

Well AHW, you would mourn if you wanted a kid. And really, how exactly do they come up with the stat that ___ many pregnancies end in miscarriage, often before the mom knows? Do they ask people about heavy, slightly late periods? Sometimes periods are heavy, and they don't always come when the calendar says they should, doesn't mean its a miscarriage. Do they stick a camera up a focus group of women's vaginas to see what's really going on in there? Or do they extrapolate from how many are known, from established pregnancies? I'm guessing they sort of make it up. But that's just me. I mean, a 30% point spread? That's reaching.

I say, if you don't want a baby, use BC. Easy. If you really don't want one, use the pill and a condom. Much better, and easier on you, than an abortion.

Calling hitchens an idiot for switching is warranted, I'd say. It's not like he just found out some new and shocking info making Obama great. He just decided to switch. Probably to up his stock in the Obama presidency world we may all have to suffer through. I am all for re-examining opinions, when it's warranted. Or, maybe he'd given no consideration whatsoever to his first opinion. Either way, not smart.

"I mean, a 30% point spread? That's reaching." All of the websites containing information on miscarriage had different numbers. I suppose I could have picked just one, instead of mentioning the range.

"It's not like he just found out some new and shocking info making Obama great. He just decided to switch." Or he has actually really started observing McCain, and has re-thought his position. Personally, I still haven't made up my mind about which candidate is the lesser of two evils.

"I am all for re-examining opinions, when it's warranted." Wait, doen't that make you an idiot? How do you decide whether or not it's warranted?

correction: "...doesn't that make you..."

The offensive thing to me about anti-abortionists is their interest in controlling the bodies of women. Education and birth control are of course the best solutions, but impractical for 100% success. I am with Amy in her example of the Downs syndrome palin kid - Downs is much more prevalent in older mothers and therefore preventable but probably Palin does not use birth control. You wack jobs who are against abortion -- do you ever care for unwanted handicapped children? Some of us prefer an enlightened society with proper use of medicine and technology to enable healthier lives.

do you ever care for unwanted handicapped children?

Yep...my tax dollars are taken for it every payday.

While I don't personally agree with abortion, this is an individuals decision. I have no more right to tell you what to do, than you do me.

However, I would rather see abortion occur than see articles like the one amy posted (and the SadlyNo idiots wet themselves over) about the black lady with 5 kids by 5 different drug dealers who was living with the 6th drug dealer. She was a walking advertisement in favor of abortion.

You can dress up abortion anyway you like, pal. It's murder. Calling the baby a glob of cells is a lie. Most abortions are peformed at about 12 weeks. Why? Because by that time the baby has fingers and toes and a face. Do you know that after abortions they piece the baby back together to make sure they got it all? That's why they usually won't perform abortions earlier than the end of the first trimester. How do you piece together a blob of cells? You can't. But you CAN piece together a murdered baby.

Tom, you ignorant moron. "They" do not and cannot "piece together a[n] aborted ("murdered") baby - who the hell are you trying to bullshit? Have you ever had an abortion? NO. I have. At 8 weeks. Nunya business why. The fetus did NOT have a "face", or "identifiable" fingers and toes. Abortions are recommended to be performed before the END of the FIRST trimester because development of the fetus is more rapid PAST that point. In the first trimester the cells are still dividing at a rapid rate, but the main characteristics of the baby are NOT YET IDENTIFIABLE. And trying to "piece together" an aborted fetus is like trying to piece together potatoes after they've been mashed. After an abortion is performed, the UTERUS is checked to make sure all of the tissue and the placenta from the fetus has been extracted. "Piece togther" a fetus to "make sure they got it all". You, sir, are beyond blathering idiocy. I hereby dub thee a member of the Church of the Perpetually Offended for No Good Reasons, and a gullible moron of the highest order.

A decent sonographer can tell gender at 12 weeks. It does look like a baby; hands arms legs face, and penis or vulva, all right there to see. Do what you're gonna do, it's your legal right and I'm sure always will be, but at least admit it's not a ball of cells. I saw current baby's heartbeat (I'm 8 weeks now) 2 weeks ago. So at 6 weeks. That's standard for a heartbeat. I"ll know if its a boy or girl in 4 more weeks. Still in the first trimester. I fail to see how something with a penis sticking out between it's legs can be a ball of cells, in anyone's eyes.

I think a lot of people just don't grasp embryology well, or how quickly things develop. After week 12, the baby does nothing but gain size and neural connections and lung function, and some sensory development. All the parts are already there and connected and humming away.

How did this go off on abortion, anyway? I mean, my thoughts on this are well known here, but it seems a long stretch from the original topic.

I have some respect for people that can admit they are doing away with a baby, but think that until it's breathing on it's own it's a woman's right with her body. I disagree strongly with them, but at least they are honest with themselves. I have no respect for the "ball of cells, fetus" crowd. Particularly since it's not a ball of cells by the time a woman realizes she's pregnant. At least have the courage to be honest about putting your convenience above a life.

Most of the wars fought in the middle east have been about putting our collective convenience above other peoples lives,

Why is it christians are so concerned about abortion but war which kills far more people is just fine?

do you ever care for unwanted handicapped children? Some of us prefer an enlightened society with proper use of medicine and technology to enable healthier lives.

Yes, so much better to cull the weak and unworthy. It strengthens the race, don't ya know.

I think it's pretty telling (and somewhat encouraging) that a number of highly visible conservatives/GWOT supporters are bailling on McSame/Bible Spice.

Which shows how little you know of conservatives.

Most of those conservatives were long gone once McCain secured the nomination. Were it not for Obama, I'd be with them, sitting on my fat ass on Election day.

Tapping into Palin-Rage allows them to break with the Republican party without blaming McCain for their decision.

Cowards, the lot.

The paleo-cons have simply said to the Republican Party "Screw you guys, I'm going home".

And then when Obama wins, they'll blame the Republican party for not pushing one of their own, even though they can't win elections either.

We needed Fred. Fred didn't want to have his life torn asunder by the wolverines in the media.

We get the government the media deserves.

Flynne -

Obvioulsy, I touched a nerve. My wife is about 14 weeks now. At 12 weeks we had the ultrasound to test for DS and other chromosomal problems.

I saw my child's fingers open and close, I saw it try to move away, kicking, from the ultrasound that was obviously irritating it, I saw its nose, its feet, its spinal column, its femur, its fibula and tibula, its beating heart, its developing brain....

Flynne, you can keep lying to yourself about what abortion really is. It doesn't change the reality.

I'm sorry about your abortion. It obviously burdens you.

lujlp

By liberal standards there have been less than 100k deaths as a result of the Iraq War.

In contrast, 42 million children worldwide are aborted in any given year.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

If you want to just outright lie about pro-life people and war, go to Think Progress or Daily Kos where they'll just nod in glassy eyed agreement.

Brian said:

"We needed Fred. Fred didn't want to have his life torn asunder by the wolverines in the media.

We get the government the media deserves."

As a Thompson supporter, I could not agree more, Brian. Unfortunately, his heart wasn't in it. I can't say I blame him, though. If he was the Republican nominee the media would have given him the Palin treatment times 100.

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

So, actually, LuLu, about just as many kids are aborted every day in the US as US soldiers that have been killed in the now almost 6 year old war in Iraq.

I'm sorry about your abortion. It obviously burdens you.

Don't be, it doesn't. I did what was best for all concerned at the time.

Well Tom lets think a moment shall we?

Average of 1.4 million abortions? 12 yrs comes to about 15 million children right?

So whats worse - aborting children who otherwise would have been born to people who didnt want them or 15 million extra children clogging up the already overburden social services of this country?

Imagine instead of lying to teenagers we actually educated them in how to use birth control - the number of abortions would plummet.

But then where would the kind forgiving christians go to scream at people if the abortion clinics had no business?

Okay, maybe in the 90s (when I gave birth to my 2 daughters) all things neo-natal were a bit less advanced than they are today? (I had the abortion in the early 80s). HOWEVER, I was told that DS could not be detected by a sonogram; I had to have an amniocentisis (the drawing of amnio fluids out of the womb) at 16 weeks (which was also, I was told, the earliest that gender could be detected), at which time it was discovered that my daughter has an extra 7-12% piece of a chromosome. At one week past 5 months, after the amnio, I had an echofetalcardiogram (a mega-enhanced ultrasound, administered by the Chief of Obstetrics at Yale New Haven Hopsital), and he told me he would pull no punches, tell me exactly what was wrong with the baby, and would respect whatever my deicsion was. As he moved the dopler over my pregnant belly, he told me he saw no holes in any organs, nor webbing of the fingers or clubbing of the feet. Not at 8 or 12 or even 16 weeks, but at 21 weeks. (Daughter #2 is now 12 years old, fully functioning, a royal pain in the ass, and a fantastic artist. I love her madly.) I'm guessing obstetrics has made great strides since I was pregnant in the 90s. Either that, or someone's bullshitting me.

So I'm a "religious nutter" am I, Amy? That's an interesting label for a lapsed Catholic who doesn't accept the divinity of Christ.

Now I know why DuWayne, Lujlp and Flynne feel so comfortable making vulgar personal attacks instead of substantive arguments on your site. My, my, aren't we a "tiny little thug" in our own way, Amy?

Seems to me the most vociferous defenders of abortion as not ending with a dead baby are women who have had them. They lied to you, Amy. You believed them and continue to believe them because its convenient...and you want to..you HAVE to.

Can't admit we advocate killing babies now can we? Can't be good "progressives" if we support that.....

You assert, essentially, that life begins when the mother believes it to be conveinient. Your intellectual dishonesty as to when human life begins is laughable...and sad...as its the only thing you have to protect you from the truth staring you in the face.

You want to have an abortion, Amy? Fine. Have one. Just do me the favor of not insulting my intelligence by telling me its not a life.

Lujlp -

The war in Iraq has been going on for almost six years. Accordingly, since the beginning of the war 252,000,000 children have been aborted world wide.

You claim that more people are killed in wars in the Middle East than are aborted.

The instead of admitting you were wrong you go on yet another screed against Christians.

Why are you such a religious bigot?

But then where would the kind forgiving christians go to scream at people if the abortion clinics had no business?

Looj! You're back! Love ya for this one, babe!

Now I know why DuWayne, Lujlp and Flynne feel so comfortable making vulgar personal attacks instead of substantive arguments on your site.

Vulgar, personal attack? What, 'cause I called you a moron of the highest order? That's not vulgar. Now, if I had called you a fucking moron of the highest order, well, then, maybe you've got a point.
o_O

By the way, I still think your abortion figures are highly inflated. But that's what people do when they want to be right, regardless. They make shit up.

You think someone's bullshitting you because we have better diagnostic instruments now than almost 30 years ago?? What do you do for a living, to expect no advances in medicine? Read any pregnancy book that was published in the last 15 years, it will say gender is evident at 12 weeks. Better yet read up on embryology. Or, I guess the sonographer at my peri's office was a really good guesser when he told me, accurately 3 times, that I was having a girl at 12 weeks.

Would you people please do the most basic level of research before offering opinions based on science? Please?

And my SIL will be 12 weeks next week, and will get her standard DS ULTRASOUND test. It measures neck folds. Not particularly reliable and a high false positive like all prenatal testing but yes, you've been lied to and are uninformed.

I find it interesting that many ardent supporters of abortion are also big on saving the rainforests on the grounds that "the cure for cancer might be waiting to be discovered in there".

You can usually cause them to seize up by saying "yes, but someone just aborted the person who would have made that discovery."

Always good for a laugh.

Amy how did you manage to get a 2 week bundle of cells scraped out? Seeing as you would be due for day 1 of your period at 4 weeks. Very in tune with your body, are you?

Crid -

Again with the special insights...

Nothing remotely "special" about it. My partner and I are far from the only couple to have to struggle with this exact issue. Indeed, we didn't end up having to abort the pregnancy, unlike the thousands each year who do. Nor was that the first time I ever had to get into the abortion discussion - it just happens that on this occasion, we actually wanted to have a baby (timing wasn't good, but we definitely wanted another child)

Guys, bluster is not an argument.

I never said it was. Rather, I was entirely sincere in my desire for him to do as I suggested. I am not all that keen on fucktards who believe that abortion should be illegal. I am even less keen on Tom, since he explained that while he believes abortion is murder, he doesn't advocate for it's criminalization.

Tom -

-when have I advocated outlawing abortion? I'm advocating calling it what it is.

I see. So basically you don't believe that murder (your words, not mine) should not be illegal - gotcha.

The reason you can't is because your support for abortion is based upon the myth that you're not killing a baby.

No fucktard, the reason I can't is because it's not. A fetus is a fetus - period. A child is what that fetus becomes if it makes it through the pregnancy.

Because killing a baby would be murder, right, DuWayne?

Indeed it would, which is why I assume you believe murder should be legal - seeing as you don't advocate making this sort of "murder" illegal.

Ah, the tolerance of the left. How very, very "Progressive" of you, DuWayne.

I'm not a lefty moron. Nor am I very tolerant of ignorant fucking morons like you.

See Tom this is why no one takes you seriously, I never said more people have died from this one war currently being fought in Iraq, I said war as in all the wars currently being fought, all the little genocidal purges and armed conflicts round the world.

And just because a fetus looks like a child during its development does not make it one.

Sure it may have the fingers and toes and a heart beat, but it has no mind - sure it has a brain but it is not self aware and has no more value then a 40yr old vegetable chained to life by machines

Flynne -

I'm pretty sure he was just lumping you in, more evidence of the moron - as far as I can figure, I'm the only one who was vulgar. I do believe my suggestion about the long rusty knife would probably qualify.

Tom -

Just do me the favor of not insulting my intelligence by telling me its not a life.

I don't think that anyone is denying a fetus is actually alive dipshit. Cancer is alive too, doesn't mean we should feel any compunction about killing it and removing it from the body.

But it is not yet a fucking child. You can repeat it all you want, won't make it any more true.

The funny thing is, I can understand and respect that you believe a fetus is a baby. I believe you are wrong, but I don't really have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I have a lot of dear friends who disagree with me on some pretty fundamental issues, who are nonetheless very dear to me. I really like Crid, in spite of his irrational distaste for the idea of gay marriage - an extremely hotbutton topic for me. I get very nasty with him about it sometimes, but that doesn't stop me from really enjoying some of the things he has to say, even things I don't agree with.

The thing that really bothers me about you, is the notion that you think abortion is murder, but don't advocate criminalizing it. Fuck that. If it's murder, then you should want women who have them and doctors who perform the procedures to go to prison. Because that is where murderers belong - locked away from the rest of us.

You rant and rant on, about intellectual honesty, yet here is a gaping hole in your own. Or maybe you don't actually believe that murderers belong in jail. Either way, your a fucking moron.

> Rather, I was entirely sincere

Do you sincerely use the word "rather" at the top of a sentence a lot? Just checking... Because the pattern is usually something earthier... "[I]ignorant fucking morons" who're "[fishing] things out of a rusty toilet."

> A fetus is a fetus - period. A
> child is what that fetus becomes

> It's a fucking fetus, not a
> child.

No, Tom is correct. This isn't about whether or not it's a child, it's about whether or not a human being is killed. And a "fetus" or "embryo" is human, especially if it's in a woman's womb... That's really a decisive factor. No other critter in there is at risk during these abortifacient procedures.

> If it's murder, then you should
> want women who have them and
> doctors who perform the
> procedures to go to prison.

Suddenly, you're right again. But don't worry about the doctors too much. They're servicing a market. It's like the drug war. The demon isn't in the pusher's knapsack, it's in the cowardly heart of his desperate client.

> your a fucking moron.

You forgot the apostrophe. Just sayin'.

Crid -

Do you sincerely use the word "rather" at the top of a sentence a lot?

Yes.

No, Tom is correct. This isn't about whether or not it's a child, it's about whether or not a human being is killed.

Actually, he's not. He is calling them babies, something that a fetus assuredly is not.

And a "fetus" or "embryo" is human, especially if it's in a woman's womb...

What about the zygote stage? Not that it's relevant, just curious.

The problem with that response is that this isn't Tom's argument. He isn't claiming that the fetus is human, he's claiming they are babies. Sorry, but that is a load of complete an utter bullshit. The boy that just spent the last hour squalling at me and cooing at me in turn, is a baby. He was even a baby when he was cut out of momma's tummy. But moments before he was cut out of there he was still a fetus (not that I am an advocate for late term abortions, unless the mother's life is in danger), not a baby.

You forgot the apostrophe. Just sayin'.

Crid, I am in the process of losing my home and having to drag my family back to MI. I have seen nearly every job I had lined up evaporate, because of the market crash. I lost time from work due to an injury and had turned to prostitution to make ends meet. Until the market started getting jiggly that was getting us caught up. But even that evaporated on us. Getting a little time here and there to peruse the blogs is one of the ways that I decompress.

I couldn't possibly care any less about my punctuation occasionally being off at the moment. Just sayin'.

So a fetus looks like a baby but isn't one, Looj? What if an OB cut open the mom's stomach and pulled it out? When's that magic point it's a baby? I'm curious. At 21 weeks when it can survive? At 40 weeks, when nature says it's done cooking? When it can think and talk, at whatever age you think that occurs? If we can kill things that don't think, the US population's about to go waaaaaay down.

See, I have no real sympathies for adults who can and should take care of themselves, and who have had a chance to make something of their life. I have no issue with the death penalty, I think we need it more. Because not all life is sacred. Innocent life is. I don't give a rat's ass about people with no healthcare, or job or who are losing their house or are homeless. They made choices that put themselves there. I think euthanasia for adults is A-ok, and should be used more. But a baby, who had no say in it's making should be protected and I have no doubt at some point in the future that will be recognized. I just think it will be any time soon.

My definition on when a fetus becomes a child?

When it can survive out side the womb without the care of trained medical personel in a lab

momof3 -

Innocent life is. I don't give a rat's ass about people with no healthcare, or job or who are losing their house or are homeless. They made choices that put themselves there.

What about people who are in those positions, who also get knocked up? Should that fetus really be brought to term, when we know it's parents can't take care of it?

Or people like my partner and I, who decided without question that if our now ten month old turned out to be a down syndrome baby, we would have no choice but to abort? No question that we are not remotely equipped to deal with that, especially on top of a six year old with special needs (extreme ADHD and possible bipolar or something else). So what? Folks should decide to carry DS fetuses to term? Understanding of course, that you and the rest of us are going to pay for a significant portion of that child's care.

Or how about fetuses that test positive for tays sachs? Should we force parents to be to carry them to term? Understanding of course that while there is treatment available, it is upwards of several hundred grand a year - for the rest of that persons life.

What about women who make a stupid choice and get knocked up? Women who are smart enough to recognize that if they have a baby (at least right now) they aren't capable of raising it. Which do you consider worse for that fetus - abortion or being raised by an incompetent, infantile girl? There are a lot of such mothers in the ghetto I live in. Many of them had mothers who were very much the same. (not only black either - there are plenty of white women around these parts that fit the bill)

Also, your a fucking bitch. Yeah, I've made some bad choices, but ultimately, had the economy not collapsed, I would still be in a tough spot, but would have no problem pulling through. As it sits now though, my family is on the verge of homelessness and moving back to MI so we can survive. I don't want your sympathy, but my kids and my partner bare no blame for where we are. So fuck you.

My definition on when a fetus becomes a child?

When it can survive out side the womb without the care of trained medical personel in a lab.

Mine, too, Loojy. And it's still nodamnbody else's business but mine and my doctor's. And that goes for every woman on the planet, regardless.

You guys are bullshitting.

Oh, but Duwayne, you do bear the blame of where you are. You put yourself there. We don't live in a communist state where you are told what job you'll do (yet). Nor are you told how to spend your money. So yes, fuck me for not giving a rats ass about you. And hearing that from you really reinforces my opinion on being in the right here. Being on the opposite side of you tends to be a good marker.

Having 2 daughter's who lived in a medical facility thanks to trained medical personel for their first month, I'd have to say you don't know shit about when a person's a person. If you get in a car wreck and require all sorts of treatment to stabilize you, and then rehab, all the while knowing you will get better eventually but aren't capable of sustaining life on your own right now, are you alive? Same scenario, different age of the patient, as saying preemies aren't people. If you aren't alive if you need lifesaving treatment, why do we provide it? Why not just let you go? Do you have a living will stating are not to be given life-saving treatment? Why not, if needing it makes you not a person.

I've no doubt people who have had abortions will have to answer for it. And I wouldn't want to be in their shoes when it happens.

As far as the "what would we do with ___ million more babies every year", my answer would be don't concieve them. Poor people are a drain on society too, can we kill them?

momof3 -

I'm not talking about me you bitch, I'm talking about my family who bare no blame for our present predicament. I fully accept responsibility for the mistakes I have made in life. Fuck you for not caring about those who those mistakes affected.

I would also note that it isn't hard to end up where I am right now. The more one has, the longer it may take to fall - but shit happens. And as much of a fucking bitch I think that you are, I would in fact have sympathy for you if you landed here. But then I also have some sympathy for the drunk bums on the street

Being on the opposite side of you tends to be a good marker.

Which only shows what a small minded little twit you are. I doubt your the only commenter here with whom I disagree on absolutely everything - my guess would be we would probably agree on more than we would disagree on. But being small, you probably don't get that.

I've no doubt people who have had abortions will have to answer for it. And I wouldn't want to be in their shoes when it happens.

And I've no doubt that your flat out wrong about that. But I wouldn't want to be in your shoes regardless.

As far as the "what would we do with ___ million more babies every year", my answer would be don't concieve them.

How do you feel about birth control? Preferably condoms. Because guess what? I am all about reducing the incidence of abortion and conception. See, we agree on something already. Both of us would love to see less babies conceived.

Meanwhile, keep your fucking laws out of my uterus. (momma and I have a what's mine is yours kind of relationship)

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