"Marriage Is Not A Smart Idea For The Alpha Male"
Joseph Dunn writes for the Times of London that more and more men are realizing that they don't need to be married to be happy:
I've lost count of the number of times a friend's girlfriend has taken me aside and asked me when I am going to "come in from the cold". Usually I yawn and say, "When I meet the right person", but even I don't believe it any more. Truth is, I probably have met the right person, probably more than one. But I've been in a couple of long-termers and I've seen what marriage can do to my friends, and I've decided I am happy in Guyland and I want to hang out here longer.This should be a bit of a worry. Under Deeson's rubric, if I continue walking single file, I will -- in a few years -- be suicidally unhappy and statistically more likely to be heading for an early grave. I will drink more, smoke more and slowly go to seed. Women will stop regarding me as an "eligible bachelor" and begin seeing me as, well, a sad spinster.
Problem is, I just don't buy it. For a start, bachelors are different now. Traditionally they can be one of two things: a toxic bachelor who spends his evenings with a bucket of KFC and a can of lager, or a career bachelor who is too busy to socialise because he is working until 3am.
Over the past five years, however, a third type has emerged. Dubbed "city adventurers" (which, I grant you, sounds a bit naff -- Bear Grylls in pinstripes?), these are single men aged 25-39 with an average wage of more than £40,000. They spend their spare time eating out, going to the pub and the cinema and taking weekend breaks. They will probably ski or snowboard and, when asked, they will say they are knowledgeable about wine (though they probably aren't).
In short, they lead interesting and fulfilling lives. "We have the time to pursue things that we really want to," says Duncan, a 33-year-old art director who has found a new lease of life since breaking up with his girlfriend. "My friends who are settled have almost every minute of every day accounted for. Because all of my time is not taken up by a relationship, I can write that script, play some squash, chase dreams and enjoy the finer things in life."
Too many feeble men give in to the supposed security of marriage. They see it as panacea to their problems (including, but by no means limited to, alienation, indecision, and lack of direction and motivation). "I don't want to be the oldest father at the school gates," lamented one friend recently, explaining why he was getting engaged to his girlfriend, who we all know will make his life a misery.
Marriage like this is for wimps. "I genuinely pity most of my married friends, who feel trapped, bored and frustrated," wrote Mike from Hong Kong. "The only men I know who are happily married are the laid-back guys who need a woman for direction. Marriage is not a smart idea for the alpha male."
Or for me -- which isn't to say I'm unpartnered, just that I'm not partnered in the traditional, suffocating (to me, at least) way.
A few months ago, somebody wrote in the comments here about how someday I'd "take (my) relationship to the next level," meaning get married. And, a couple years ago, a woman at a Christmas party pulled me aside to remark on how happy my "husband" and I looked together, and went on a bit about how wonderful it was to see a couple so in love. She asked if we were newlyweds. "Actually, he and I aren't married..." I started to say. Her face fell. "Don't worry," she said. "Someday you'll meet 'The One'!"
Grrr. I was used to this sort of thing. "Um, actually, we're very happy together," I told her, "And I can't imagine being without him." I explained that I have no interest in getting married or even living with anyone. My boyfriend, who I've been captivated by since the moment in 2002 that he turned and locked eyes with me at the Apple computer store at The Grove, lives 13.2 miles from my house. Why? Well, as I once explained here in blogland, "I'm annoying as fuck, yet I can be quite charming on a part-time basis. I would venture that this describes many people; they just aren't willing or able to admit it. If they would, they might live more reasonably -- and more happily and peaceably -- with their partners, by living apart."
In todays male biased legal climate marrige is a bad idea for every guy
lujlp at October 21, 2008 3:45 AM
Amy, now why would a naive idea about someday meeting "The One" make you upset? To me, it's just idealistic idiocy. That somehow, there's "The One" for all of us. That there's a right person for us, and that we'll eventually meet, fall in love and get married. And of course, "The Almighty Matchmaker" has taken all things into account, so we'll always be compatible and as we grow and change, of course our changes will compliment "The One's."
Sheesh, if that's what God is doing, he can stay out of my love life, thanks. Of course, the divorce rate, including that among His followers, suggest that He's no Yente.
God, GIVE IT UP! THIS IS NOT YOUR FIELD!
As for me, I'm blissfully single, although in an LTR with a guy who is (apart from the basic biology) everything I'm not, and I love him to death for it!
Patrick at October 21, 2008 5:02 AM
The sagacious "lujlp" writes:
How true. And it's been that way for a long time. Marriage typically profits the female half of the relationship and divorce even more so.
Patrick at October 21, 2008 5:04 AM
"Can't imagine being without him" is just the whole thing right there.
Married couples who can honestly say that are going to be happily married forever. Those who choose not to marry and can say that will be every bit as happy forever as well.
I have this absurd smile on my face for you two but I can detect a little jealousy inside me too. Also, looks like the Apple store is a great place many reasons. Ha! I can't wait for that ad.
BlogDog at October 21, 2008 5:49 AM
That's me. Ask anyone who's shared a roof with me for more than 24 hours.
brian at October 21, 2008 5:58 AM
You know - each side has it's ups and downs. Married couples may sometimes yearn for the freshness of the single life and singles may wish they had the comfort of a relationship.
I hate when people use the misery of others as a reason that they won't be "insert status here". There are many happy married couples. There are many happy single people. And there are many miserable people in both situations. Chances are they are miserable because of themselves, not their marital status!!!
You have to do what works for you...don't look at how other peoples lives are or aren't working for them. That's no rational way to make a decision!
JustMyThoughts at October 21, 2008 7:19 AM
JustMyThoughts: here here.
I appreciate Amy's presentations of articles and opinions showing different lifestyles. And I understand her reasons for not wanting to get married. But I have to say that marriage isn't a one way ticket to misery. I don't know this from first hand experience but I've observed people intently enough to have developed some ideas on it.
It's our traditional expectations that marriage is a cure for a stale relationship. For one's insecurity. For one's fear that it's their only chance to secure a bed mate for the time their asses start sagging to the floor. I've found that many people are not introspective and play up the fairy tale and have unrealistic expectations of their relationship. This is a guarantee of FAILURE.
Enter: The Bridezilla. I'd like to start a reality t.v. show where I take a shot gun into the Wild Wedding Planning Wilderness and shoot 'em up. These chicks are the epitome of all that I hate about weddings. And make being a woman embarassing. The total focus on this one day: flowers, food, table cloth colors, The Dress. Who gives A FUCK?! Picking the correct color bouquet to optimize the "glow" of your face on Your Big Day isn't going to guarantee you and hubby will be able to work through a major financial crisis without killing each other. Or pull the other out of a gambling addiction. Or be able to deal with a fussy MIL. Or that you're both dedicated enough to keep things steamy 15 years into it when sex with the same person just isn't that appealing. But hey, the pool guy...? Hotttttt.
So no, marriage isn't for everyone but come on - this dude is dumping on it. The point is that many people get married for the wrong reasons b/c there is this "expectation" that it's what you do and people are lame and give in to these bullshit expectations. Even when they, deep down inside, know they shouldn't that that walk.
People need to just do what is right for them. People need to be able to identify these "alpha males" and realize that marrying them is bad, or if you are one not to marry.
And dudes: if your girl turns into a Bridezilla it's a pretty good indication that she's getting into marriage for the wrong reasons, that she's self centered (what? You forgot that YOU are getting married, too? Yes, it's not just HER day.), and more likely than not - spends money on really pointless shit.
$20k is an excellent net egg - or a kick ass vaca around the entire world for 6 months. And she wants to blow that on a 3 hour reception - rubbery chicken and awkward, forced social interactions b/w people who don't know each other? There has to be something in the DSM-IV-TR outlining those symptoms as being some sort of psychological illness.
Gretchen at October 21, 2008 7:44 AM
Marriage was never about 'the couple'.
People pair off and define their own relationship as they are able. Some people are more annoying than others and some browbeat their mates with power games in a master-slave relationship. If you want to cut down on exposure to disease then being choosy and 'faithful' is a better bet for one's health : not to mention not needing to look for amiable 'trained help' ( that's not perjorative : it works both ways).
These are drives, needs...everybody does it. The state and social institutions ( churches are those too ) try to contribute to stability by laws and mind fuck games : control. That's because kids do better when they can have support from both parents and play games to keep them together - while trying to control the action themselves.
Not everybody wants to contend with the elephant in the room : families and relatives. We've got room in society for that too. It's not like we've got a population shortage - or one of people who think their lives should be under their control and don't want to let go of that situation.
The 'alpha male' set up as an inappropriate mate wasn't just any guy, you note : he has disposable discretionary income over expenses ( just the kind gold-diggers want to control ).
opit at October 21, 2008 8:11 AM
I remember last year, many here scoffed at the idea of a marriage strike. Some came down on me pretty hard for suggesting exactly what Mr. Dunn has written.
No doubt. For lots of men, modern marriage can't overcome the opportunity costs from single life.
I would extend Dunn's take, however. Not all men can be alpha males, for to be dominant, one dominate over someone. As a man, there are only a few ways to deal with this.
The rake replaces dominance with dalliance.
It's an alternative way of dealing with women that I rarely see discussed. Evolutionary psychology has lots to say about male and female mate choices and the roles played by alphas and rakes. The rakes can make out pretty good.
Another controversial point is that dating/mating strategies for rakes are quite different from, even competitive with, female dating/mating strategies. Rakes have to "play games." And that's a good thing.
The rake replaces dominance with dalliance. It works for a man who will never truly be dominant. For this man, dating advice must be very, very different. I rarely see this addressed in a comprehensive and evidence-based way.
Jeff at October 21, 2008 8:51 AM
**Her face fell. "Don't worry," she said. "Someday you'll meet 'The One'!"**
This annoys me too. I have officially entered my mid 20s, and my mother and grandmother (who, don't get me wrong, are the kindest, smartest, strongest women I know) honestly thought they'd have me married off by now. I've been with my boyfriend since 2004, and, fortunately, we're on the same page when it comes to marriage (ie, we're tabling it indefinitely and acknowledging the fact that we'll probably have to break up and screw other people when we go to grad school far far away from each other).
Anyway, after "happy birthday," they both said a variation on, "so, have you and [boyfriend] decided to get serious yet?" I replied with, "We are not planning on getting married."
Which is true. I'm PLANNING on going to Germany in April. I'm PLANNING to be in grad school by this time next year. I'm PLANNING to get to a point where I don't have to work 2 jobs. I am not planning on getting married.
But it's frustrating because we ARE serious about each other (serious about supporting each other, loving each other, and helping each other get what's best out of life). Each of us would take a bullet for the other. And we've been serious about enjoying each other every day for 4 years.
I think my ideal world would be one in which marriage was not automatically factored into success in life. Where marriage still exists, but where people who really truly do not want to get married just...don't. And feel comfortable with it.
sofar at October 21, 2008 9:45 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/10/21/marriage_is_not.html#comment-1599094">comment from sofarIn Singled Out: How Singles Are Stereotyped, Stigmatized, and Ignored, and Still Live Happily Ever After, Bella DePaulo quotes a letter from Richard Roeper asking his meddling friends how they'd feel if he wrote to them, "I know you've been married for the last 12 years and you CLAIM to be happy, but for 2004, my greatest wish for you is that you open your eyes to the possibility of a commitment-free existence! Dump your husband and get back in the game! I don't want you to wake up at 60 one day and wonder why you didn't live the single life!"
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2008 10:16 AM
I liked Bella's book. I haven't been to her blog lately, but she has a pretty good feel for the single, happy life.
Of course, having been divorced for five years now, and suddenly frugalling around with a long absent lady friend, with whom I had always had a platonic friendship in the past, I'm not sure which direction this will take this time around. But that's what is so fun about life. When you don't know which way you are going, that is the best way to get somewhere you've never been. That's why I read, nay, ABSORB Amy's column religiously (ok, scientifically). And other blogs on the subject as well. For those of you with the time, there is a great article, Sustainable Love, on RealitySandwich dot com. Regulars here at Amy's might find this interesting, I certainly did.
Sterling at October 21, 2008 10:37 AM
Well sofar if you do grad school in AZ feel free to look me up
lujlp at October 21, 2008 11:14 AM
This movement shouldn't be new, it's been happening for some years now. I could spout of dozens of Men's Rights associations that have been saying the same for almost a decade, sometimes longer.
Marriage is a raw deal for most men because most women aren't like Amy. And, while I do not intend that as a compliment (though I don't mind if you take it as such), my point is that most women (avoiding the always/never traps) are not so introspective, self-conscious, and principle-oriented as she.
Lifelong bachelorhood is something I've found myself looking into (see: Mirrorofthesoul.blogspot.com), and I think that it equally applies to women as well. I totally praise Amy for making such a decision, and think more women should consider the same.
One caveat: commitment-free existence does not always mean lifelong...but I do find that it allows for one to get to know the other person in a deeper, more personal way that will 'likely' result in a more competent, rational, and romantic marriage than without having such a mindset.
I'll have to explain this in detail a bit later on, as I'm sure this is confusing, but yeah..hmmm
farker at October 21, 2008 11:18 AM
"I think my ideal world would be one in which marriage was not automatically factored into success in life. Where marriage still exists, but where people who really truly do not want to get married just...don't. And feel comfortable with it."
Word, sofar. If only we could take out having children from that equation as well. I am in my late 20s and my mother has been hinting around about grandchildren for about 5 years now. It is really getting old. She won't say anything directly because she wants to still be in my life if I should ever have those grandchildren. Which at this point? Not so likely.
My favorite episode from "Sex and the City" involves Carrie going to Tatum O'Neal's house for a baby shower, for her 3rd kid, and Carrie's shoes are stolen. Carrie rationalizes that she has spent thousands validating Tatum's life choices, wedding gift, baby gifts, shower gifts, and there is no ritual that validates the single lifestyle. So Carrie sends Tatum a notice that she is marrying herself, and she has registered for the shoes that were stolen. I thought it was brilliant.
Amy K. at October 21, 2008 11:29 AM
To avoid comments about being married or not married, I know several people who introduce their significant other as their "partner". The implication is that it is a committed relationship, and that's the end of it.
bradley13 at October 21, 2008 12:08 PM
Marriage is a GOOD thing...between ADULTs...who happen to be both compatible & mature. (if not always in that order)
I wouldn't mind being married again. But I don't really "need" to be, in order to be happy. Hell its FUN to be a good looking rake.
I wouldn't mind in the least taking trips, taking up new hobbies, going to school just for classes that interest me, and holding down a job that pays well enough for me to live the way I wish to.
And as has been pointed out already, the marital deck is stacked rather high against male interests these days.
Its ironic in a way. The press of feminism may well end up liberating MEN more than women. I have to laugh at that.
Robert H. Butler at October 21, 2008 12:41 PM
I would say it's more true that marriage is bad for alpha females. Or heck, all females. I mean, I chose to get married, have kids, and stay home. I adore my kids. I just didn't realize my husband would be one. I mean, when I got my degree I was not picturing scraping some dudes pee off the toilet and washing his skivvies all day.
He goes to work, talks to people and exercises his mind. Then has hobbies. Not exactly life in a straighjacket. I would never advocate someone getting married that didn't want to make that lifelong commitment to someone. Life's easier without, in a lot of ways, especially for women. In fact, while marriage typically increases a man's life expectancy, doesn't it shorten a womans? I can tell you why!
momof3 at October 21, 2008 1:05 PM
I hate this blog post. It's time to got to work and there's no chance to read it closely and say which is the worst part: The post, the source materials, or the comments, but I'm pretty sure it's all a bunch of smug hokum.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 21, 2008 1:12 PM
if I continue walking single file, I will -- in a few years -- be suicidally unhappy and statistically more likely to be heading for an early grave.
This obviously refers to all the studies which which show that married people are, on average, healthier and happier than singles. I have no doubt the studies are true, but the conclusion most people draw from them has cause and effect backwards. It's not that marriage makes you happier or healthier--rather, someone who is happy and healthy is a more desireable partner, and therefore more likely to be married, than someone who is neither.
Rex Little at October 21, 2008 2:52 PM
Actually, the study states that married men live longer than single men, and single women live longer than married women-or something like that. I think that men get emotional nurturing out of marriage, which is healthy for them. Women give emotional support but don't get equal amounts in return, which probably wears them out.
Chrissy at October 21, 2008 3:42 PM
I think the reason that married men tend to live longer than single men is that married men have wives nagging/encouraging/whatever them to go to the doctor regularly or semi-regularly, and single men don't. Last I checked, the stats showed that men are less inclined to go to the doctor to check out issues than are women; while this is admirable when one has a cold, it's less intelligent when one has shortness of breath and chest pain, say.
And, while I do not intend that as a compliment (though I don't mind if you take it as such), my point is that most women (avoiding the always/never traps) are not so introspective, self-conscious, and principle-oriented as she.
I'd say most people aren't as introspective (etc. etc.) as Amy is. While I certainly don't disagree that the cultural viewpoint about marriage is skewing toward the female rather than the male side at this moment, it's not as though there are hordes of introspective, self-conscious, principle-oriented men out there, either. Most people don't spend a lot of time thinking about why they do things, or about why other people do things. This doesn't make them evil, but it doesn't make them wonderful, either.
As for the alpha guys who don't want to get married, I have absolutely no interest in whether other people (who I'm not dating, anyway!) want to get married, as a rule...until kids come into the equation. If the alpha males in question wish to remain childless, then good on 'em (though I would suggest backing that up with surgery that prevents the possibility of accidents). If they want kids, however, my live and let live attitude disappears.
I must say, though, that whenever I read these articles, I mull over the fact that I know a lot of happily married couples, quite a few of whom include males who aren't looking to a woman for direction. I don't disagree with the idea that some people are happiest alone, and I'm thankful we live in an era in which people who don't want to marry don't have to do so - but when I read the supposedly proud unmarried folks basically saying that "marriage is for wimps," I detect some hidden insecurity. It's one thing to be like Amy, and to say that marriage isn't for you in a way that admits that perhaps you might have flaws. It's another thing to say that only by being single can one lead a fulfilling life. I know plenty of married guys leading fulfilling lives, and plenty of single ones doing the exact opposite. For some of us, having a partner in crime around permanently inspires more activity and adventure rather than less.
marion at October 21, 2008 5:53 PM
Yeah. It couldn't be the higher rates of childbearing among married women. No way. It's gotta' be those mean men, for sure.
Jeff at October 21, 2008 6:32 PM
Then why did you do it? Why do you do it? Time is a scarce resource. If you choose the benefits of full-time family life with kids, you can't get the benefits of full-time work. Duh.
Isn't this just another a case of a woman refusing to accept that life has opportunity costs? You're a grown-up. You can make different choices. So, make them.
Jeff at October 21, 2008 6:41 PM
It couldn't be the higher rates of childbearing among married women.
Given that there are fewer than 600 deaths from childbirth per year in the U.S....from a statistical view, no, it really couldn't. Especially if you assume that death from childbirth is more likely if one hasn't had good prenatal care, and that one is less likely to get good prenatal care if one is poor or of uncertain finances/life situation, and that one is more likely to be poor/of uncertain finances/etc. if one is pregnant and unmarried than if one is pregnant and married. Or, to put it another way: You're still more likely to be pregnant at some point if you're married than you are if you're unmarried (in the U.S.), but if you're unmarried you're probably more likely to behave in a way that increases your risk of death in childbirth. Short version: While death in childbirth would have been a good answer to the "why are married women more likely to die early?" question 100 years ago, I don't think it is now. YMMV.
That having been said, I think it's the rate of visits to doctors, rather than emotional factors, that explain why single women live longer. Married women tend to have more things taking up their time - some of which, admittedly, are pretty cool. When you're single, you can arrange your life to suit yourself - eat two meals a day, live a nocturnal life, make doctor's appointments at weird times, etc. etc. When you're married, you're balancing scheduling needs for two people (at least - throw in kids and you're balancing even more). If you're helping your husband throw a dinner party for his new boss and he's really nervous about it, you're probably going to wait until after that's over to see what's up with the occasional arm pain you've been having. This isn't because you've been subjugated or anything silly like that - it's because you're juggling more elements.
marion at October 21, 2008 6:53 PM
Jeffy dear, I said right in my post that you obviously felt a need to reply to without fully reading, that I CHOSE to get married, and stay home. And that's it's not always, or even often, a feild of roses. Neither is any job I ever heard of.
That I chose to do it doesn't mean I can't comment on the less savory aspects for women. That's my viewpoint.
And really, I can't make other choices even if I did want to, which I don't. I bought my ticket when I had kids with this guy. No changing trains now. But I'm sure you weren't suggesting I leave the father of my kids so I can feel more fulfilled, were you?
Given that there are lots of days when I don't even take a drink of water till the kids are in bed, I can fully see how married women, especially mothers, put off that trip to see about that lump, or whatever. There's just so many urgent needs you have to attend to, that you tend to come last.
momof3 at October 21, 2008 7:22 PM
I dunno. Death isn't the only way higher rates of childbirth, especially at younger ages, can reduce aggregate female longevity.
Good point. I hadn't thought of that.
Jeff at October 21, 2008 7:23 PM
The problem with marriage is that its almost universally accepted as being the thing to do. Its assumed that to be happy and fulfilled and a contributing member of society you have to be legally yoked to another person living in the same house. It doesn't make sense. People are different - marriage is good for some people some of the time, and not necessarily the two people involved at the same time. To assume that this particular convention will work for everyone is just silly.
Any relationship involves compromise and because alpha folks are less able/willing to compromise its not a big leap to assume they're less suited to marriage. As to whether marriage is "worse" for alpha males or alpha females - that's an unanswerable question and thus a pointless argument.
The other problem of course is that most people go into marriage believing the hype - assuming it will be the thing that makes them happy, and assuming that the marriage will be perfect, or worse assuming that if the "big day" is perfect (women) the rest will take care of itself. Several really common human failings come into play: the assumption that everything will work out (because if we didn't believe that we'd never do anything), an inability to look at the long term picture, the constant cultural brainwashing that love will conquer all, and of course the bridal-industry-driven pressure to be princess-for-a-day. Taking all this into consideration is it any wonder most marriages fail? All those square, oval, zig-zaggy, lumpy, diamond-shaped pegs being banged into round holes. How could THAT not work??
Strangely, I've broken up with several perfectly acceptable guys because they wanted to get married. One said, "Well, that's what people do, right?" (Such a romantic - it took every ounce of my will to resist.) I'm always surprised that despite the number of men I know who complain about marriage - they all keep doing it. Sometimes more than once.
And in defence of momof3 - not many women look at an attractive guy and think, "Mmmm, bet he pees all over the toilet seat." If we did the human race would rapidly die out.
catspajamas at October 21, 2008 7:32 PM
True. I prolly took an uncharitable reading of your post. That wasn't right. I hate it when people do that to me, and here I am whipping out a hasty reply. Sorry.
I hear that. I get your intended meaning now.
While I fear marriage is in decline, responsible, committed motherhood and fatherhood are supremely honorable acts of love. All respect for what you do.
Jeff at October 21, 2008 7:33 PM
catspajamas, I'm cheering your third paragraph!
Jeff at October 21, 2008 7:38 PM
I thought I could hear something : ) Merci
catspajamas at October 21, 2008 7:40 PM
No matter what choices you make, there will always be someone there to criticize them. People who enjoy the single life get the advantages of being unattached, but they have the one big disadvantage: Getting unwanted advice. It's what happens when you buck one of society's biggest traditions. People feel the need to reel you back in, and a lot of people cave to the pressure. If you do happen to get married, the pressure to have kids is enormous. It never really stops.
MonicaP at October 21, 2008 8:04 PM
> more and more men are realizing
> that they don't need to be
> married to be happy
This is wickedly naïve... It's amazing to read an advice columnist cite it without irony, especially one who's friends with Dr. Laura....
...Even though it's absolutely true! It ignores the first, middle and last appraisals of masculine nature from every truly sensitive woman who lived before about 1968: That men are essentially shits, and that our lesser nature needs to be attentively tamed by social pressures small and large (within the household and without). Men have always, always, always known that life's more fun (Happier! Happier!) when spent chasing a variety of tail than when given to building an intimate, routine, dependable life with a person you've known for a long time... To say nothing of what it means for kids, parents, or the rest of society.
That passage above imagines that happiness comes through flighty impulse, and that while marriage might have originally assisted in the pursuit, newer, clumsy implementations have limited it's effectiveness... And that's lunacy.
> I've decided I am happy
> in Guyland
Rhetoric like this excuses the stupid things they used to print in Cosmopolitan about undercooked, “Peter Pan” personalities.
> Over the past five years, however,
> a third type has emerged.
People who sell articles to popular media love to pretend that human nature has just undergone a subtle transition that needs to be described.
It ain't likely.
> with their partners, by living apart
In context, a contradiction in terms.
> In todays male biased legal climate
> marrige is a bad idea for every guy
See the link above regarding mouthing off about 'today'.
> Ask anyone who's shared
> a roof with me for more than
> 24 hours.
There's more to flipping debits into assets than being glib.
> I hate when people use the misery
> of others as a reason that they won't
> be "insert status here".
Kinda right....
> You have to do what works
> for you... don't look at how other
> peoples lives are or aren't working
> for them. That's no rational way to
> make a decision!
... Entirely wrong.
> People need to just do what
> is right for them.
Where does this bullshit come from?
> DePaulo quotes a letter from Richard
> Roeper asking his meddling friends how
> they'd feel if
Maybe Roeper's an asshole, like his friends. Amy, I hate it when you use locutions like “how they'd feel if...” For all your pop psychology fascinations, you're usually very good about avoiding that rhetoric.
> I am in my late 20s and my mother
> has been hinting around about
> grandchildren
Grownups are responsible for their own conversational boundaries, especially with family.
> So Carrie sends Tatum a notice that
> she is marrying herself
TV is all about Onanism.
> Marriage is a GOOD thing...between
> ADULTs...who happen to be both
> compatible & mature.
We can demand maturity out of people. It's not something that just “happens.”
> Its ironic in a way. The press of
> feminism may well end up
> liberating MEN more than women.
Entirely correct, but liberating them to no one's great benefit.
> I think that men get emotional
> nurturing out of marriage, which is
> healthy for them. Women give
> emotional support but don't get
> equal amounts in return, which
> probably wears them out.
Well golly! Here's a woman who thinks that female nature is just too darned helpful for it's own good! What a shame!
> married men have wives nagging/
> encouraging/whatever them to go
> to the doctor regularly
Exactly, Marion. And I think it's more likely that these old widows who die sooner are simply getting the message from their biology that the work of their lives is done.
> If they want kids, however, my
> live and let live attitude
> disappears.
Word.
> but when I read the supposedly
> proud unmarried folks
> basically saying that "marriage
> is for wimps," I detect some hidden
> insecurity.
Word! Word!
> Isn't this just another a case of a
> woman refusing to accept that
> life has opportunity costs?
Yes.
> Given that there are fewer than
> 600 deaths from childbirth per year
It ain't just about childbirth. A lifetime of worry for one's children has got to age a person.
> Death isn't the only way higher
> rates of childbirth, especially at
> younger ages, can reduce
> aggregate female longevity.
Ahh.... Jeff's on the case.
> Its assumed that to be happy and
> fulfilled and a contributing member
> of society you have to be legally yoked
See the passage about getting married to be happy referenced at the top of this comment. I'll never understand how people grow to adulthood and believe that the first purpose in all of civilization's strictures is about making people “happy and fulfilled”, or as Pajamas puts it, “go into marriage believing the hype - assuming it will be the thing that makes them happy”.
> they have the one big disadvantage:
> Getting unwanted advice.
I'm never, ever bothered by that. When people violate boundaries when talking about my private life, I call them on it. This is recommended procedure for everyone, married or not.
Listen, after one bad marriage (no children) I'm content in middle-aged singlehood. But let's not try to kid anybody, OK? People who marry long and well demonstrate greater human competence than those of us who don't. They have better babies, and keep their eye on life's Big Themes much more attentively than us boogie-time singles do.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 22, 2008 2:31 AM
BTW/offtopic... WAY offtopic.... Does anyone recognize this skyline?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 22, 2008 2:32 AM
It's Frankfurt am Main in Germany. Cool photo.
lin at October 22, 2008 4:05 AM
huh?
Oh, and Crid? I'm actually happy to live in a civilization that no longer requires me to be married with children to consider me respectable.
brian at October 22, 2008 4:26 AM
I'm married, but I feel like there is all this social pressure to NOT get married and have children. I wish I had gotten married sooner (I was 30, I'm 31 now), perhaps around 26 or 27, but all the social factors push away from that. About half of my friends are married. Of the single ones, most want to be married and have kids. There is a biological reality that it is difficult or impossible to have children later.
There are all these social factors pushing women to wait, to "find themselves" first (whatever the hell that means), to explore life, live wild, etc. But that means that they waste time and get to the point where they are frantically scrambling to find a mate.
Maybe it's just the social scene I'm in... but the standard formula is go to college, bum around and find yourself, go to grad school, get a "real" job, then find someone and get married... but by then the women are in their late 20s and 30s and it isn't so easy anymore.
I feel strange sometimes because I got married and followed my husband to another state, where I had trouble finding work (I have an awesome job that I love now but it is only part-time), and when people find out I do all the housework they act like there is something wrong with me. But I'm the one who has time, so of course I do it! I wish I'd learned some of this household stuff over the years though, because I am figuring it out on my own. (For example, I didn't know about changing dryer filters until the dryer stopped drying... I figured it out and had a year's worth of lint on the screen!!!)
It feels like there is all this social pressure to be this power career single chick. Honestly, that doesn't sound like much fun to me, though.
So I think the social pressure goes both ways. There is a lot of pressure to NOT be domestic.
NicoleK at October 22, 2008 8:25 AM
I'd agree with you on the domestic issue NicoleK. I'm the "enlightened, new age sensitve male" because I've learned how to cook somewhat, clean and take care of myself. Then I meet women who think being "domesticated" is horrible for them but ok for a guy. Uh, sweetie, if all you're offering me is the sex part, why would I marry you?
Marriage for men these days is stupid unless you want children and even then you have to be prepared to get raked over the coals if/when things go bad.
As I tell folks all the time, gay marriage killing the "institution" of marriage is a red herring and total bullshit. I can understand why some folks don't like gay marriage but its not harming straight marriage (well unless its a McGreavey type situation). If you want more stable/happy marriages, reform marriage and divorce laws, reign in the out of control family courts.
Sio at October 22, 2008 8:37 AM
If you want more stable/happy marriages, reform marriage and divorce laws, reign in the out of control family courts.
Either that, or demand that EVERYONE (male and female) take some personal responsibility, and show tangible proof of that, before handing out marriage licenses willy-nilly. o_O
Flynne at October 22, 2008 9:06 AM
People who sell articles to popular media love to pretend that human nature has just undergone a subtle transition that needs to be described.
*Front-runner for quote of the week.
snakeman99 at October 22, 2008 10:09 AM
What kind of proof, Flynne?
NicoleK at October 22, 2008 10:36 AM
As an aside... yesterday I sat down in my lecture hall and scrawled across the desk was this: "I can't get married, I'm a 30-year-old boy." I just love the graffiti at this school.
Christina at October 22, 2008 10:50 AM
"But let's not try to kid anybody, OK? People who marry long and well demonstrate greater human competence than those of us who don't."
That's like saying "people who excel in and complete an advanced degree have [greater intelligence/more motivation/more book smarts/more appreaciation of knowledge/insert favorable attribute here] than those who don't." It's not true in all cases. And there are many cases in which it is not true. There are those who have all these attributes in spades and demonstrate them in other contexts. Just as there are single people with great human competence who demonstrate it in other ways and other relationships. Or who don't want to get married. Or who just are never lucky enough find someone they want to marry/have children with and who are emotionally mature enough to recognize that others they have dated do not fit the role of a compatible life partner.
I'm not in the "marriage is for wimps" camp, by any means, btw. But it is my naive wish to live in utopia where singles are not pitied by the majority. And where they don't pity themselves.
sofar at October 22, 2008 11:28 AM
> I'm actually happy to live in a
> civilization that no longer
> requires me to be married with
> children to consider me
> respectable.
First of all, you sound like a pretentiously 'feminist' sophomore coed buzzed on wine cooler on a Tuesday night at the dorm when she ought to be studying in the library. What do you mean, "no longer"? Do you really think that bachelorhood was, until some recent dawn, a condition of oppression?
Secondly, what do you mean, "actually"?
Thirdly, but perhaps most importantly, what makes you think you're "respectable"?
> It's not true in all cases.
By all means, go ahead: Quibble.
Wow, I just read your next sentence. When reading that whole passage all at once...
> It's not true in all cases.
> And there are many cases in
> which it is not true.
...one gets the sense that a naked emperor has just recognized his error.
> it is my naive wish...
When you start it like that, it takes a lot of the sport out of this.
> to live in utopia where
> singles are not pitied
> by the majority
I think lots of people in this stack have weird, childish ideas about self-respect and community standing. You want no limits to the choices you can make for your own happiness and fulfilment, you want no enforcement of your agreements after the handshake, and you want nothing but loving support from everyone who ever lived, whether you succeed or fail, no matter how much your choices burden them, either in intimacy or distant community.
Good luck.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 22, 2008 12:46 PM
Crid, you and I both know that as recently as fifty years ago the single male was considered "not completely a man".
Being unmarried at 35 was the mark of a man who was less than reliable. And it did put an upper limit on the level of career success one could hope to achieve.
brian at October 22, 2008 2:10 PM
Quotation marks! Who are you quoting? I don't recognize it.
Crid at October 22, 2008 3:12 PM
Crid -
Some form of this statement would make a very good "inspirational" poster. Seriously, that just made my day - and given that I am going through what is literally the very worse experience of my life, I really appreciate it.
I've been thinking a lot about my standing in my community lately. Having always been a "I could give a fuck what others think of me" kind of guy, it has been irksome accepting that my standing in my community is important enough that it warrants some consideration in the decisions I make. The funny thing is, I have found that I can pretty much be the guy I want to be and that works just fine.
Having failed more completely than I ever thought possible, has put it to the test. I am leaving my adopted home city, the greatest place I have ever had the pleasure of living. I am returning to the state from whence I came, the state with what is probably the most depressed economy in the country. I have had to call my regular customers and explain what is happening and why I am leaving, the same with my friends and the people in the various community organizations I have been involved with here. I have also had to call and talk with people back in Lansing MI, to ensure that I have work and a roof over our heads when we get there (done) and explain to them why we are returning. Excruciating and humiliating.
Yet having failed so utterly, the reaction of everyone has been sorrow that we are leaving and joy that we are coming. Instead of scorn, I have been inundated with suggestions of ways we could stay and offers of help in making everything work, whatever it ends up being. Because I simply considered how my actions affect my community and their opinion of me, I have maintained my dignity and the respect of my community, even as I came to the point where I could no longer effectively provide for my family (though I have managed to maintain our housing until we leave).
Thanks for that Crid. I hope you don't mind if I work that into something to go on my desk. I'll send you a copy when get a chance to play with it.
DuWayne - water birthing fan at October 22, 2008 3:38 PM
sofar -
The wish for utopia is in itself naive. Everyone who could be content in any utopia is nothing but automaton. That which renders utopia utopian, is absolute conformity and a surrender of will. Paradise inevitably has a devil lurking in the bushes (metaphorically speaking, I don't actually buy the notion of a supernatural evil).
But what you are seeking is happening - albeit very slowly. I have two kids and will never marry my partner, though we are committed to our family and will probably keep it up after the kids are grown. I also refuse to let it lay when people assume we are married - we're not and there are good reasons for that. Even twenty years ago we would have been considered somewhat crazy and completely socially unacceptable. These days hardly anyone bats an eye to it.
And it is also becoming far more acceptable to be and plan on staying single. Some of your married friends might act like they feel sorry for you, but I would bet that in a lot of cases, there is more than a little envy involved.
DuWayne at October 22, 2008 3:49 PM
I just get horny married guys hitting on me (or at least staring at me like starving dogs), so I guess that's what marriage does to them. I can't imagine how dull it must get, being forced by law to have sex with the same person, year in, year out. Ever notice how something you liked doing isn't fun anymore when you HAVE to do it?
All flippancy aside, I was married and I like being single. At least that way you can miss each other and still have your privacy.
Chrissy at October 22, 2008 4:23 PM
I don't know Chrissy, while I imagine some of them are like that, others could be more like me. When I hit on women, it is usually to probe whether they might like to play with both my partner and I. The same is true of when she (and occasionally me) flirts with boys. Of course we aren't married and thus lack the wedding bands, but our relationship is very much like that of many married couples (albeit married couples who like to play with others) and it shows in our mannerisms.
Other times I flirt with ladies just to see if I still "have it." Attraction, but no real interest, it's just fun to know that I could if I really wanted to. Gets me in trouble though. I was talking up a rather pretty, way too young thing (maybe twenty), when I got to the stop where my family was waiting to catch the same train. She bugged out when momma handed me the baby and kissed me - telling momma that I was a cheating tramp. Momma feigned rage, slapped me and said "goddamit, shes way too young for us, you perv!" Little girls reaction, priceless.
DuWayne - water birthing fan at October 22, 2008 5:18 PM
Is anyone else worried about the kids duwayne is raising in that atmosphere? They ALWAYS know, you know that, right, DuWayne? Or are you so liberal you think that won't harm them a bit, to know mommy and daddy sleep around with men and women? Do what you want in your bedroom, until you're dragging the kids into weirdoland with you.
Don't you say your first kid has lots of problems? I wonder why?
momof3 at October 22, 2008 7:01 PM
No, momof3, I worry about the children you're raising in your environment. You know nothing about duwayne's relationship other than that they play with others. Yet, you still make big giant leaping conclusions about the effect on the children, obvious condescension and moralizing included. Judgmental, conservative twits - right this way.
Christina at October 22, 2008 7:36 PM
Strike out judgmental in that statement. I hate that word. Replace with nosy.
Christina at October 22, 2008 7:37 PM
Also strike out conservative. Replace with ignorant.
Christina at October 22, 2008 7:51 PM
NicoleK: I'm married, but I feel like there is all this social pressure to NOT get married and have children.
There's always going to be pressure from some segment of society to do one thing or another - be single, be married, be like us, be thin, be tanned, be pale, go to university, learn a trade, drive a nicer car ... You just have to learn to resist, otherwise life will get very tiring very quickly. Really, why would you do something you don't feel is right for you because of pressure from anyone? What gives other people the right to determine what you "should" be doing?
I've had the odd comment over the years, mostly from female relatives, i.e. "when are you going to settle down?" Because apparently a condo, a car and a great job aren't "settled" enough. But you shrug it off. You say, "Thanks, I'm as settled as I want to be", or "I would but I can't decide between the three guys I'm seeing", and then you change the subject, 'cause you really can't do much about family. My mother has been mercifully silent on the subject, and my father's only contribution, bless his heart, has been, "If you feel like getting married stay overnight a few times first. That way you find out early if he picks his nose at breakfast."
As for other people I tend not to spend much time with people who try to pressure me into fitting into their view of things. The important people in my life take me as I am. The rest - who cares?
catspajamas at October 22, 2008 7:58 PM
In my view, men are just making good economic choices. Since the 1970's, women have been liberated, freed to compete with men at every level and everywhere. Women are treated at law as modern citizens.
Yet, the laws are still essentially feudal for men. Men lose reproductive rights in marriage. Once betrothed, a man is the fiduciary father of his wife's children, no matter who the biological father is. Depending on who you ask, paternity fraud rates reach 30%.
Also many men think, rightly in my view, that women in general don't like men. For example, lots of wives seem to take a kind of pride in humiliating their husbands in public. I'm not sure if that's new, but it's surely a common thing to witness: that uncomfortable chuckle as the husband pretends an insult is a joke. I see it all the time.
As evolutionary psychology tells us, men have a dominance instinct. Very powerful males will be able to satisfy that deep, biological need in a modern marriage. Most men won't.
Over time I expect marriage rates to decline precipitously. Marriage will become the province of the very, very powerful male or the very, very submissive male. Average males will content themselves with serial monogamy at best, and lots of freely available sex.
Ironically, feminism brings men the social arrangement most fit for their base nature. The whole of society becomes a kind of civilized brothel. Is it Valhalla leading to Ragnarok or Egalitarianism leading to a Marxist utopia? You decide.
Crid is right to worry about man's base nature. I think we must now worry about woman's, too.
Jeff at October 22, 2008 10:27 PM
> to worry about man's base
> nature. I think we must now
> worry about woman's, too.
Well, we always should have been. But I'd bet Chrissy (above) doesn't even think she has a feminine nature, let alone one that could be a burden to anyone in a righteous world.... See more discussion here.
The thing I hate most about "alpha male" chatter, and other products from the Psychology Today cover stories, is the lack of humility. People think that somehow when they're talking about 'scientific' principles or findings, that somehow their own biases and needs and weaknesses are no longer a problem... Even for topics as dynamic and unpredictable as the human heart. That makes me crazy.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 23, 2008 2:38 AM
What kind of proof, Flynne?
Ya got me there, NicoleK, I haven't a clue. Tangible proof that you've never been arrested; tangible proof that you're responsible enough to have held a job for x number of years; tangible proof that you're not a burden on society physically, financially or mentally, or a child molester or other social demon? Tangible proof that you do not suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder? Who the hell knows? Take a shrink test before you get the marriage license? Answer a series of questions designed to show how much you really know about your potential partner? Be forced to care for them for a week when they're sick with a cold or other ailment? All of the above? Or maybe, just maybe, setting aside all preconceived ideas of what marriage should be and discovering who you are first, before adding another person (or persons) to the mix that is your life? If only I knew, Nicole, if only I knew. Like the song says:
I wish
that
I knew what I know now
when I was younger...
(apologies for the earworm!) o_O
Flynne at October 23, 2008 9:54 AM
Why do people that don't want kids get married? Just curious. If I hadn't wanted kids, I doubt that it's something I would've done.
momof3 at October 23, 2008 10:04 AM
Because they want their parents to shut the fuck up.
brian at October 23, 2008 11:06 AM
Jeff says: Also many men think, rightly in my view, that women in general don't like men. For example, lots of wives seem to take a kind of pride in humiliating their husbands in public. I'm not sure if that's new, but it's surely a common thing to witness: that uncomfortable chuckle as the husband pretends an insult is a joke. I see it all the time.
Geez, who are these people?? First of all anyone who insults their spouse in front of other people is an asshole. Any spouse who doesn't stand up to the insulter and call out that behaviour is a doormat. Some people will treat you the way you allow them to. I certainly don't believe this is indicative of the state of all marriages, 'cause I can name a bunch where both partners respect each other. I do agree you see this kind of thing a lot on TV ads, which makes me wonder - who the heck is making them?
As for men thinking women don't like them: that's just weird. I suspect those men should be pickier about the women they hang around with. Me and a bunch of my friends are perfect examples - we like men, we date 'em and hang around with them and enjoy their company and conversation recommend some to other friends. What we don't do is marry them or treat them badly.
Jeff, honeybun, I worry about you, seriously, and sometimes reading your stuff makes me sad. I have a feeling I've tried to make this point with you before on another thread - be choosier about who you hang with. Not all women, or all men are good people. Learn to figure out which ones are. Learn to recognize the signs. Learn to stay away from people who treat you with disrespect. Some of those guys you mention got married for the wrong reasons (I know a guy who's reason was, "She had a great figure, and she'd loaned me money." Um, WTF?? He was of course stunned when it didn't work out.)
catspajamas at October 23, 2008 11:53 AM
momof3 -
They ALWAYS know, you know that, right, DuWayne?
Of course they do. They can tell from the house they are having a sleepover in, that momma and papa brought home a playmate.
What little the six year old knows about sex and our sex life, he has heard directly from us (excepting the fateful night when he woke up and wandered into the living room while we were having Teh Sex). We actually went into a little more detail after he caught us, because he had a lot of questions beyond the simple "where do babies come from?", that we had answered long before.
Or are you so liberal you think that won't harm them a bit, to know mommy and daddy sleep around with men and women?
First, I'm not all that liberal - it's your own fringe extremism that makes me appear to be.
But when the boys are much older, we will talk about all of that, just like we will discuss our past drug use and field questions on that front. To not allow our kids to learn from our experiences would be nigh on criminal. At six adn ten months, we are a long ways from that point, but we certainly will get there.
And there is nothing liberal or conservative about it.
Do what you want in your bedroom, until you're dragging the kids into weirdoland with you.
What weirdoland? There are a great many people who like to play the way that we do - many more than you would ever imagine. We just don't happen to be embarrassed by it, nor do we feel the need to hide it all that well. I have little doubt that there is at the least, one couple in your own neighborhood that swings, if not more.
Don't you say your first kid has lots of problems? I wonder why?
Genetics you dumb bitch. I have severe ADHD and bipolar disorder. Momma has an acute anxiety disorder (psycho-speak for we're not sure) that is likely bipolar. Our six year old has what may be worse ADHD than my own and either is also bipolar or we're looking at the possibility of Lien's syndrome (which may explain my bipolar issues as well).
Funny thing is, that we are working with it all. We homeschooled the second semester of kindergarten and spent weeks before this school year with the school and his therapist trying to get him prepared - and it worked out great. Our biggest focus on the move has been doing what we can to make it the easiest transition possible. We are about as devoted to our children's well being as is humanly possible. But live in your fucked up fantasy that I'm an evile librul.
Why do people that don't want kids get married?
Because they want the legal security that marriage provides.
DuWayne at October 23, 2008 12:03 PM
As usual DW, everything about you icks me out. And if you think I'm fringe, then 95% of America are outright fucking radicals. The fact that I just voted republican for the first time ever really makes me whacko. Yeah.
I'd ask if you're using not only condoms but also dental dams for every single touch, but I really don't want to know. It's a roulette game, that's all I'm gonna say, and you're only lucky so long. You might as well share a needle with a street junkie.
I have a minor in genetics, you dumb whore. If you think that's the only thing gonna mess your kid up, you're going to be in for a sad awakening come the teen years.
momof3 at October 23, 2008 5:53 PM
> Why do people that don't want
> kids...
Guilty!
> get married?
Guilty again!
I was young and stupid and the memory has been fogged by bitterness and Cabernet, but I think it was to effect a countenance of humanoid normalcy. Yes, this was foolish, given how uninteresting that is to me now (and how unhelpful it was then), but you're supposed to do stupid things when you're young. Some guys drink & drive. Others obsess over televised sports. Others marry innocent girls from the hometown.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 24, 2008 1:20 AM
momof3 -
As usual DW, everything about you icks me out.
Right back at you, you fucking bitch. And the name is DuWayne, no relation to DarkWing duck.
And if you think I'm fringe, then 95% of America are outright fucking radicals.
Anyone who will rant against the evile libruls the way that you do is fucking fringe - especially when accusing someone like me of being one. I am staunchly centrist on the American spectrum. I'm pretty much a conservative here in the people's republic of Portland and I'm pretty much a radical conservative by European standards.
It's a roulette game, that's all I'm gonna say, and you're only lucky so long.
Having lost an uncle to AIDS when I was rather young, I am confident that I am far more aware of how to be safe than you are. Been at it for a very long time now, happily lecture any younguns' who will listen and give them condoms and oral dams (I get quantities from the health department, because I have helped coordinate talks by people with HIV/AIDS at several of our community centers)
I have a minor in genetics, you dumb whore.
Won't argue I'm not crazy and I have certainly been a whore and may be again. I am even prone to the occasional bad decisions. But dumb I am most certainly not, not by any rational measure.
I can't tell you how impressed I am that you have such a depth of knowledge about genetics though - a minor even. And so relevant to the discussion at hand.
If you think that's the only thing gonna mess your kid up, you're going to be in for a sad awakening come the teen years.
I never even implied that I believe that - I most certainly don't. All I did was answer your question - the problems that we have been facing with the oldest are related to the "gifts" he got from his momma and I. His neurochemistry has lined him up for a lot of problems that we are working hard to compensate for. Of course that same neurochemistry has also provided him with some wonderful attributes already with many more just waiting to be discovered. Having made a lot of mistakes and recognizing many of the mistakes made by my parents, I am confident that he will have the tools to avoid the same problems.
DuWayne at October 24, 2008 11:20 AM
"But I'd bet Chrissy (above) doesn't even think she has a feminine nature..." Hey Crid, please explain. I think I'm feminine, but I'm curious to understand your definition of feminine nature. I'm from Canada, so maybe I'm not enough of an insecure doormat maybe? Do tell.
And just in case there was any confusion, I like men and men like me-I'm happy, confident, flirtatious, and in my dealings with men, I'm kind and treat them with respect (if they treat me with respect).
As far as DuWayne and his open relationship, that's fine, but he should probably be upfront with any woman he's interested in having a threeway with, and let the woman know that his partner is OK with this, otherwise he'll keep getting those angry reactions. A lot of my single female friends don't like to take sloppy seconds from married guys, so it's just common courtesy.
It actually doesn't bother me as much as it used to, and if it happens again, where a guy hits on me while his wife/date is in the washroom, I'll just tell him that I'll ask his wife/date what she thinks when she get back, just for a laugh.
Chrissy at October 26, 2008 8:44 AM
> maybe I'm not enough of an
> insecure doormat maybe?
Indeed, maybe you aren't!:
> A lot of my single female friends
> don't like to take sloppy seconds
> from married guys, so it's just
> common courtesy.
If there's a finer passage in Amy's comments this year, I haven't read it. I love that.
> I'll just tell him that I'll
> ask his wife/date what she
> thinks when she get back, just
> for a laugh.
I love that, too.
> I'm curious to understand your
> definition of feminine nature.
I hate to get all Potter Stewart on your ass, (i.e, "I know it when I see it"), but feminine nature doesn't collapse into a single-sentence description like masculine nature does. The best wording I've ever heard to describe it came years ago from a conservative (and occasionally unbalanced) radio guy named Dennis Prager: "The demon that a woman faces from her feminine nature is the presumption that her feelings, and the feelings of her loved ones, are of paramount importance." (He used to use the principle all the time when talking to people, but he only said it once, because he knew he was playing with dynamite.)
Sometimes that phrase doesn't describe the problem precisely... But it works in this case...
> Women give emotional support
> but don't get equal amounts
> in return, which probably
> wears them out.
... Don't you think?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 26, 2008 10:46 PM
Chrissy -
I only let women know that I am interested in a three way, if that is what I am interested in. At thirty three I have an ego to support and occasionally do so by flirting with girls I shouldn't and don't really have an interest in, to see if I still have it, as it were.
When I am trying to pick up playmates for momma and I, I start out gauging how they might react to the notion of playing with a couple. Hint around a bit to get a feel and if it looks good, I move forward. If it doesn't look so good, I flirt a little more and go on my way.
I should also note that ours isn't a totally open relationship. We have our rules and stick to them like a religious nutter to their dogma (better even). We never play with others unless we are both involved (or getting paid to). We rarely play with others anyways, because we rarely have a kid free night, but the whole fun of it is our involvement as a couple.
...I'll just tell him that I'll ask his wife/date what she thinks when she get back, just for a laugh.
Momma has used that one herself. I think it's a very good one and if your into swinging, also a good way to gauge potential play couples.
A lot of my single female friends don't like to take sloppy seconds from married guys, so it's just common courtesy.
Crid's right, that is a great line.
To be even clearer, before we get past the flirting phase and into the "lets make plans" phase, I make crystal clear that this isn't a lets you and I play, sort of deal. I should also note that having an extreme distaste for condoms (I am a condom nazi, don't get me wrong, I just don't like having to use them), I rarely fuck the folks we play with.
DuWayne at October 27, 2008 10:39 AM
I'm very much for both men and women being happy, and however you want to make it work for your relationship is something that you have to discuss openly agree to. It's great that you have rules that you stick to, DuWayne, because emotions are easily hurt and should be protected.
Back to the original questions, I'm glad men are finally figuring out how to be happy.
Chrissy at October 28, 2008 8:59 AM
Very Imformative article, thanks for the educational read.
Johnathan Kallas at August 8, 2010 12:46 PM
yesssss, band of brothers....lookin fwd to it!!!!!!! My summer entertainment :). Can't wait!!!
Nell Haber at April 13, 2011 8:02 AM
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