Hating Men -- Supposedly For The Greater Good
Men alone are made out to be monsters on the Dallas buses carrying domestic violence ads for The Family Place, a domestic violence shelter whose executive director is uninformed that men are domestic violence victims...or knows and doesn't care...or knows and is purposely ginning up controversy to stretch her publicity dollar. Whatever her reason, the shelter's advertising is ugly, toxic, and wrong. Columnist/blogger Glenn Sacks explains the campaign:
Several hundred Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) buses feature misleading, father-bashing ads purporting to address the serious issue of domestic violence.One ad depicts a happy little girl with the message "One day my husband will kill me." Another shows a smiling boy with the message "When I grow up, I will beat my wife."
If they're going to run these ads, they should also run ones picturing a little girl that say, "When I grow up, I'm going to shoot my husband and get away with it, and then get custody of my kids!" But, they don't. As Glenn writes:
To depict only males as perpetrators of domestic violence, and only females as victims, is a severe distortion. DV research clearly establishes that men account for half of all DV victims and incur a third of DV-related injuries, as women often employ the element of surprise and weapons to compensate for men's strength.
A comment under Kim Horner's Dallas Morning News story on the ads shows their effect:
ellen34 | 18 hours agoWell Ms. Flink, you did shock and offend. I took my son aside after seeing it and explained to him how certain women in this society abuse their positions to promote hatred towards men and boys. He got a lesson about misandry, and learned how women sometimes behave badly. Not sure if that was your goal, but that is what it accomplished.
For a sense of the double standard, here's an excerpt from a column I wrote in response to a letter from a woman who threw an ashtray at her husband's head:
If your husband tossed an ashtray at your head, do you think he'd be describing himself as "Still So Angry Inside" or "Still In Court Trying To Get The Charges Reduced"?It doesn't take much for domestic violence against men to be taken seriously...usually, just a chalk outline where a man's body used to be. The rest of the time, people tend to shrug it off or even find it cute: "Well, well, well, she's quite the firecracker!" Granted, male abusers can do much more damage with their fists, but put a heavy object in a woman's hands, and good morning brain damage! (Just wondering...has your husband gotten the ashtray out of his skull, or does he have to hang around smoking areas with his head bent down so people have someplace to flick their ash?)
To protest the DART ads, click on the link to Glenn's site.
I am a woman, a survivor of domestic violence, and a child of an abuser. Having said that, it is my believe that the art of male bashing has reached an all time high. Especially in my age group. (25-30)
Not all men are abusers, but are treated as such. Not all men are sexual predators, but are treated as such. (You should see the looks from women that my husband gets whenever he takes our daughter to the store. One woman even went so far as to accuse him of abuse in the parking lot. No, he wasn't abusing our daughter- he was just putting her in her carseat. Thankfully, I was there and promptly told the woman to stfu.)
I know that for every male abuser, there is a male victim. And where are the resources for them? Where are the shelters? Where are the TPO's and the tax payer funded counseling centers?
It's time for everyone, male and female, to stand up and say enough of this bullshit! Domestic Violence is real and it hurts, but there will never be a solution until all perpetrators of DV are held equally accountable.
Thank you, Amy, for posting this blog. I'm sending the link out to every single DV activist I work with.
Truth at October 28, 2008 3:41 AM
Men are half the victims of domestic violence? I'd be interested in seeing where they got that data. I would imagine they used some form of measurement much like that woman Amy hates so much, who did the sex abuse of girls survey and came up with the 3/5 number. Any insult or touch not welcome from a woman was probably called domestic violence. I am not a man hater, nor do I advocate it, but let's be honest. Men are the usual perpetrators of both sex abuse and domestic violence, just like muslims are most terrorists.
I live in Austin, and our shelters here are most obviously for both genders. No whining about discrimination in this town! I was there donating one day and a gay man was there getting help.
momof3 at October 28, 2008 5:52 AM
Any insult or touch not welcome from a woman was probably called domestic violence. - momof3
Ever hear the saying whats good for the goose?
lujlp at October 28, 2008 6:15 AM
Alright, Loojy, that was out of line. It's good for neither goose nor gander, and it needs to stop. Those ads are vile. They send the wrong damn message.
Flynne at October 28, 2008 6:22 AM
Unintended consequences!
No kid just learning to read will get the point of the whole text of those ads, delivered in the fine print. The headlines teach little girls to become victims and boys to become abusers.
Instead of mitigating abuse, the ads will perpetuate it.
Axman at October 28, 2008 6:34 AM
Well, I never considered myself a victim of domestic violence at the time it was happening. I could have defended myself from the plates that were hurled at me, which subsequently busted several holes in the wall of my ranch house. But I am a free man, and the ex is doing serious prison time, so I win. Maybe Ms.Flink needs some prison time too, since she certainly sounds like a tight ass. A little time in the yard might do her some good.
Within this shit DART ad lies the crux of the problem. An over emphasis that men are abusive assholes, and have to prove their innocence, which I have spent years doing, and continue to do so daily in an environment where everyone is skeptical of, if not suspicious of a single dad/custodial parent.
That doesn't give a free ride to the men that are abusive assholes. I'm all for justice for the victims. Just don't pre-identify the victims and perpetrators. Ms. Flink you are trying to play God, yet you seem to be a godless whore.
Dear Ms. Flink, where were you when my ex wife was raping the family court system in Texas while bending me over every day for several years? Let's see, she hasn't paid child support since she was ordered to in March 2002. At $150/month it is not much, but that is over $10k that my son would have, and after the 7 figure legal fees to fight your feminist bullshit ilk, it might actually help. I bet if I owed child support and was one day late with a payment, you would hunt me down as the scum of the earth and throw me in the hoosegow. But according to you, this is all my fault. Because I am a man. Which provides me with another important option in dealing with you and your type, thanks to my imaginary friend Cartmen in South Park. Ms Flink, I encourage you to jump up and SUCK MY BALLS!
The Glenn Sacks column has some really good info; think I'll spend the rest of the morning sending real letters to the Flinks and DART.
Have a nice day all!
Sterling at October 28, 2008 6:56 AM
>>Which provides me with another important option in dealing with you and your type, thanks to my imaginary friend Cartmen in South Park. Ms Flink, I encourage you to jump up and SUCK MY BALLS!
I can't express how much I loathe your juvenile, tosspot final line, Sterling.
Other than that, you make a lot of sense (as does Flynne). And the ads make me want to puke too.
Jody Tresidder at October 28, 2008 7:26 AM
I am confused Flynne according to the DV advocates; insults, any unwelcome touch, and even raising your voice is considered abuse to a woman when it is done by a man
Why shouldnt it apply with the genders reversed?
lujlp at October 28, 2008 7:42 AM
I didn't say it didn't Loojy, I just said it's not good for EITHER gender. There are assholes of both genders, but that does NOT justify those ads. In fact, I agree with Axman that they just perpetuate the abuse. And the abuse needs to STOP. ALL of it.
Sterling, you have my utmost sympathy, and my utmost support.
(BTW, repsect mah authoritah! o.O)
Flynne at October 28, 2008 7:54 AM
I think, much like Amy said when she didn't consider the boob-grab by the kid in jr high while playing spin the bottle as sex abuse, although it qualified in the study as such, that we all need to grow the hell up. Someone yelling at you is not abuse. Someone punching the crap out of you, or killing you, is. Abuse is something you can not handle on your own. If you can't handle an insult on your own, and leave accordingly, that's your problem. If someone is threatening to kill you if you leave, then you need help.
Being married to a harpy you can't make yourself leave is not abuse. Being married to an asshole who is rude to you that you won't leave is not abuse.
I"m not sure someone throwing a plate at a wall is abuse, although it's certainly behavior I wouldn't stay married to. I think abuse is yelled way too frequently, from both sides, and it distracts from the real cases where a person can't defend themselves physically, and can't leave without a very real threat of death.
I don't need the police or a shelter to get me away from an asshole. I would need them to get me away from a homicidal retributive asshole. See the difference?
momof3 at October 28, 2008 8:01 AM
Actually the plates were coming at me, and I ducked behind a wall that extended into the dining room. And they were really heavy china, some stuff from the Crate and Barrel Redneck Collection if memory serves me correctly. Somewhere I have pictures of the holes that were taken for the insurance company. But I digress.
As an aside, the little Mrs actually left my ranch that evening, went to the Sheriff's office, and tried to have a deputy come arrest ME (unsuccessfully, I might add). But to stay on point,there are many women (and men, and people of all racial backgrounds and genders) that will take advantage of a situation, and skew it for the benefit of themselves or their cause of action. Like Ms. Flink for example.
Sorry if I offended with my childish South Park plagierism. But to fight terrorism, think like a terrorist. To fight juevenile publicity campaigns, think like the juevenile who is sponsoring the campaign. I stand by my statement, whether mah authoritah deserves respect or not is up to the individual.
Sterling at October 28, 2008 8:23 AM
" Ms Flink, I encourage you to jump up and SUCK MY BALLS!'
Sterling, you should have more respect for your balls.
Jim at October 28, 2008 9:04 AM
And some people wonder why I am not nearly as wistful as they expect me to be about the fact that I've never been married or even shacked up with someone.
I'm against abuse. End of sentence. Full stop. And I don't consider being yelled at abuse, no matter how many women have learned to go into floods of tears at the sound of a raised voice.
Technomad at October 28, 2008 10:26 AM
As a counterpoint to these DART ads, there's a series on the Oxygen channel called "Snapped." Every episode documents the case of a woman who killed her husband. These aren't "Burning Bed", abused-woman-strikes-back murders, either; most of the women are gold-diggers who weren't satisfied with half their husbands' money.
(Why am I familiar with this series? My wife watches it regularly. Presumeably not to get ideas, or I wouldn't still be here.)
Rex Little at October 28, 2008 10:57 AM
momof3: Three times in my life, I've had women throw objects at me with the intent of harming me. One of the women was a relative; one was a friend of my ex, and one was a date. The three objects thrown were: (1) a heavy ceramic table lamp; (2) an ashtray, and (3) a steak knife. The ashtray I deflected with my forearm; it hit the floor and shattered into a million pieces. I caught the ashtry (I had pretty good reflexes when I was young). The knife thrower fortunately didn't know how to do it properly; she didn't get any spin on it, and the handle end hit me in the chest.
Cousin Dave at October 28, 2008 11:04 AM
Nice article. Thanks.
john at October 28, 2008 11:42 AM
the plate not being abuse. I don't think you have hard a place hurled at you in anger before.
I plate striking you in the head can cause some damage. My mother hurled a plate at me once when i was a kid and it missed but broke on the floor besdie my leg and cut me pretty good.
john at October 28, 2008 11:53 AM
To the person above who wants to see the 50/50 data, it's all over the place.
CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY
www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm.
AMIERCAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION
http://www.patienteducationcenter.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n
UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
http://news.ufl.edu/2006/07/13/women-attackers/
GOVERNMENT OF CANADA
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/pdfs/Intimate_Partner.pdf
Marc at October 28, 2008 11:56 AM
If conventional wisdom is correct, most abusers were abused themselves, as children. Which makes sense, because where else would they learn it? I wonder who is more likely to abuse a child, the mother or father? (Or stepfather?) My mom and aunt were both abused by their mother, but not by their father. (Granted, he did nothing to stop it.) Neither my mother nor my aunt ever abused their kids or spouses, however.
I don't know how often women are the perpetrators of domestic abuse as it relates to spouse-against-spouse, but they can be downright vicious to their own kids.
Pirate Jo at October 28, 2008 12:02 PM
> I loathe your juvenile, tosspot
> final line, Sterling.
"Tosspot".
Remember, Sterling, it's important to be all growed up, so the Jody can have a suitably dignified experience on the internet.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 28, 2008 12:03 PM
Men are the usual perpetrators of both sex abuse and domestic violence, just like muslims are most terrorists.
Do me a favor and go post the following sentences on almost any human rights blog on the planet:
"Men are abusers." "Muslims are terrorists."
And see which one draws the most negative attention. Fact of the matter is it is these days it is just as okay to assume that men are abusers as it was 45 years ago to say that a woman could not be in politics (unless you're gonna somehow prove that the women of today that wanted to get into politics have it harder than the women of 45 years ago...)
Someone punching the crap out of you, or killing you, is.
The killing is most certainly abuse but I would have to know the circumstances of getting the crap punched out of you. There are situations in which one person starts the violence but as soon as they are attacked they cry foul (and for the cops). If you think you're bad enough to beat someone then you're bad enough to get beat by them if you start the fight with them.
Danny at October 28, 2008 12:23 PM
I have an early childhood memory of my grandmother brandishing a knife against my grandfather. I realize many would say to protect herself, but my grandfather was a rather gentle man who yelled and my grandmother was a rather violent woman who yelled then grabbed a weapon. She started most of the violence, and lost most of the fights.
They always made up and were married for 25 years until she died (of natural causes). I never doubted they loved each other, they were devoted to each other and worked side by side nearly all those years.
Yelling is not abuse but violence is.
By the way, it took me running away two times to get them to calm it down to just yelling. The third time I ran away they toned down the yelling too.
Ariel at October 28, 2008 12:41 PM
Tosspot, from the Urban Dictionary.
Wow, I never knew I was such a wanker...
Sterling at October 28, 2008 12:43 PM
Nothing surprises me anymore in the area of "domestic violence" propaganda. As you said Amy, where is the ad about the Mary Winkler case or the Clara Harris case. Harris ran over her cheating husband with her step daughter in the car, was alleged by her own PI that she was cheating too and the wench actually WON CUSTODY of her sons while she was in jail.
Oops, forgive me for speaking. I'm just a potential rapist, pig dog man.
Sio at October 28, 2008 12:47 PM
The Clara Harris fiasco was playing out while I was in the family court system in Houston. Not so tragic as the Andrea Yates fiasco (drowning her five children because God told her too), but tragic, nonetheless. However (and not to make light of the domestic violence issue), her now dead husband was or should have been a candidate for the Darwin award. Clara Harris, his Columbian (legal immigrant) wife, caught him in the affair. He proceeded to tell her she was unattractive and no longer desirable sexually. She reduced her own dental practice to half time, hired a personal trainer, and a plastic surgeon to fix the problem (as the husband defined it). With this, he promised to end the affair, but alas met his lover at the Kemah Hilton that fateful night anyway. The private investigator called Clara to confirm the affair was still on, but did not disclose the location. But Clara was not an idiot, and knew exactly where to go and find him. We've all seen the video. Doesn't excuse her behavior, but again, the guy was an ass.
The Mary Winkler case: I didn't follow it so closely. But apparantly she didn't like wearing heels and stockings and bending over for her preacher husband, so she shot him point blank with a shotgun, then ran off with her kids. Then got off with a slap on the wrist. They should have put her away and thrown away the key, but there you have it- she's free. Might I suggest that anyone asking her out for a date, go easy on the suggestions about lingerie or doing it doggie-style; it could save your life.
Sterling at October 28, 2008 1:22 PM
The disbelief in violent women is rooted in unwarranted ideas about female superiority. It is in everyone's common experience to witness female on male violence. Slapping men is a commonplace, for example. I don't get the skepticism, ttytt. But, even researchers are "surprised" to find that women perpetrate as much or more domestic violence as men.
It's no surprise to any objective observer. Women aren't prosecuted for domestic violence and women know men cannot credibly report female on male violence. As in so many areas of modern life, women get a free pass to kill, maim, assault, and abuse. The legal environment actually encourages females to be violent.
American Psychiatric Foundation reports on a study from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health. Be sure to check out the graph.
Harvard Medical School reports on a study in the American Journal of Public Health.
Jeff at October 28, 2008 1:36 PM
(cont'd to avoid link filter)
ABC News documentary on public reactions to a woman abusing a man in public.
Watch passers-by as a women assaults a man. One actually cheers her on. Most ignore it. In fact, several blamed the female initiated violence on the man!
People just assumed he "deserved it." Our society assumes that women are always right, and men are always wrong. When people do intervene, they offer the woman help! Wow, just wow.
The cops admit that they wouldn't do anything much less arrest the woman. Everywhere and at all times, the law treats woman like children in adult bodies.
This is so common, I can't believe people like momof3 would dispute it. Men get screwed by the law, by feminist social structures that blame men for everything.
Momof3 would have just walked on by, I guess. After all, the man probably "deserved" it.
Jeff at October 28, 2008 1:54 PM
Thank you for standing up!
My family has been through three rounds of false claims of abuse. My husband's ex-wife works for the county. She makes exaggerated claims (once calling the police while she was in another town. She told them that I was being abused by my husband. NOT TRUE!! The police didn't listen to me. They took him to jail. The court tried to put a "protection order" in place to keep my husband away from me and the kids!) Needless to say, we are broke from fighting the claims. The last claim resulted in my husband accepting a felony charge on his record in order to keep his 14-year-old from having to be dragged into the court circus.We were told again and again, "if you were the mother there would be millions of resources for you. Too bad you are the father". FIX VAWA NOW!! STOP LETTING THESE PEOPLE BRAINWASH AMERICA!! FATHERS DESERVE RESPECT!
Kerry Parham at October 28, 2008 2:13 PM
Reminds me of an experiment that Tyra Banks did on her show a while back. She had a cast of actors act out situations in public between couples and see how passersby would react. Things would start off with an exchange of words and escalate from there. The scenarios were:
A lesbian couple in which one woman was the aggressor.
A gay couple in which one man was the aggressor.
A male-female couple in which the male was the aggressor.
In the lesbian example people mostly watched and or ignored them.
In the gay example people mostly ignored them.
In one of the male on female examples (she did this several times in different neighboorhoods) an NY firefighter broke it up. The male against female examples were the ONLY one that were broken up by a passerby. In another the real NYPD was called to the scene. One of the responding cops was told that the man was attacking the woman with a knife (which is odd because none of the actors had weapons).
Fact of the matter is the only time violence is a concern to most people is when it male against female. And as proof of how one sided the assumptions are would anyone care to mention which combination was left out of the experiment altogether?
Danny at October 28, 2008 2:15 PM
Ya can't argue with facts.
The fact is more men than women, kill men, women and children.
See www.FamilyLawcourts.com/domestic.html
and
and www.FamilyLawCourts.com/badcop.html
That's not male bashing. Men just can't admit misogyny works well in the U.S.
Bonnie Russell at October 28, 2008 2:20 PM
I had been in a relationship where my wife abused me for years. When it got dangerous and I called the police, they arrested me and put me in jail. I then went through the court-mandated counseling sessions.
Thanks to those sessions, I found enough self-worth to leave and later find a healthy relationship (she found someone else to beat a few years later).
Shortly after I had left, I dialed 911 when she showed up to try to kill me. The operator laughed at me. I called the police and the detective said, "Well, you were the one who picked her."
Immediately -- and I mean NOW -- we need to get rid of the notion that men are perpetrators who can do no good, as well as the idea that women are innocent flowers; helpless victims who cannot take care of themselves.
Women who want gender equality need to stand up with us men and demand that VAWA (and similar programs) and the laws be changed.
Until all of this changes, gender equity cannot be realized.
D at October 28, 2008 2:21 PM
Ya can't argue with facts.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm06/figure3_5.htm
You most certainly can't...except for when they aren't in your favor right? Based on that when a child is abused the first suspect should be mom right? Then why is it ususally dad?
Danny at October 28, 2008 2:28 PM
Amy,
Can I post some data?
Huh???
Can I can I can I???
Pleeeeeeeeeeease???
Gunner Retired
PS: I wonder if, in light of the recent Woods v Shewry ruling in the Calif Appellate Court, anyone stopped to consider that the men they bash today... they may be offering services to tomorrow?
Gunner Retired at October 28, 2008 2:30 PM
Well, no. Women commit more child murders and more child abuse. Overall, yes, men are charged with and convicted of more violent crimes than women.
Now we know why: female violence isn't seen as a crime.
It's easy to show that more men commit violent crimes. But this is a non sequitur. The issue isn't who is charged or convicted of the most crimes, but who engages in more violent conduct regardless of charges or convictions. women hit more often than men. This, too, is a fact. Women are prosecuted at far lower rates than men. This, too, is a fact.
I admit, women are not charged and convicted at the rates that men are. But every objective study shows that women commit at least as many violent acts. Women just aren't held accountable for violent acts. Men are.
Which isn't to argue for making men less accountable. It's an argument for making women just as accountable as men.
And no matter what the rates of violent offense or prosecution or conviction, men and women should be treated equally under the law. It's required by the Constitution, should be required by any respectable morality, and surely it is warranted by simple common sense.
We can't have women killing, maiming, and assaulting without equal legal sanction. Come on. Even the most die-hard female supremacist has to conceed that one.
Jeff at October 28, 2008 2:37 PM
What we have is a backwater Dallas gender feminist domestic violence shelter, poorly managed by an unqualified supervisor, spending $25,000 in DART bus advertising to “create awareness” for an 8-in-1,000,000 issue because it gives her an opportunity for hate mongering against all boys, men, husbands, and fathers on somebody else’s dime.
Dallas’s DART, which has a whole layer of bureaucracy specifically for back-slapping and covering each other’s backside (see the list of names and titles posted on the Glenn Sacks site) took the $25,000 and decided they will simply blow off the protests.
When DART decides to show all these people the door and focus on spending the money on safe, clean, efficient buses that run on time, maybe they’ll stop reaching so low for the last buck they can snatch.
DanH
DanH at October 28, 2008 2:39 PM
Truth said:
"Men are half the victims of domestic violence? I'd be interested in seeing where they got that data."
The real facts are not hard to find but I did check out "The Family Place" website and did some exploring. As a result, I sent the following e-mail to "The Family Place" and to DART
Several hundred DART buses feature misleading, father-bashing ads purporting to address the serious issue of domestic violence. One ad depicts a happy little girl with the message "One day my husband will kill me." Another shows a smiling boy with the message "When I grow up, I will beat my wife." This ad campaign is in conjunction with The Family Place however, much of what is being presented to the public in these ads is very misleading to say the least. Much of the statistics on the The Family Place website are distorted. These are but two of them that I will address: The Surgeon General’s Workshop on Violence and Public Health reports that domestic violence is the number one cause of injury to women in the United States —more than rapes, muggings and auto accidents combined. One often-cited study is a Journal of the American Medical Association study in a large urban hospital (Detroit). But a more recent JAMA-cited study found a virtually equal prevalence of domestic violence for male and female ED patients. Only 1.85% of women's emergency room visits are due to domestic violence (37% of 5% - all forms of violence account for only 5% of ER visits.) http://menweb.org/battered/batemerg.htm http://shatterdmen.com/Guestbook.htm
According to the FBI, a woman is beaten in this country every 15 seconds.There is absolutely no basis in fact for this statement. While it has become an often-used factoid (sometimes the number is 9 seconds, or six) it is not accurate. It is also variously reported as coming from the FBI, Department of Justice data, the UN, the Commonwealth Fund, or simply, "studies." The organizations referenced have never compiled data in this fashion or issued such a statement. The original factoid (then 17 seconds) was extrapolated from information in this report by Murray Straus, which was compiled nearly twenty years ago and cannot have any relevance in a discussion of today's incidence of domestic violence.If you choose to do your own extrapolation of this data, you will discover an incidence of 13 seconds also applies to males, a point which is conveniently left out of the factoid circulating today. Again, this study is so old, and society itself has changed so much it cannot be considered relevant in 2004. Furthermore, the FBI does not calculate, tabulate, or track data on domestic violence. A study conducted by scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The lead investigator was Daniel Whitaker, Ph.D., a behavioral scientist and team leader at the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (which is part of the CDC). Results were published in the May Journal of Public Health.
Whitaker discovered, of the 24 percent of relationships that had been violent, half had been reciprocal and half had not. Although more men than women (53 percent versus 49 percent) had experienced nonreciprocal violent relationships, more women than men (52 percent versus 47 percent) had taken part in ones involving reciprocal violence.
Regarding perpetration of violence, more women than men (25 percent versus 11 percent) were responsible. In fact, 71 percent of the instigators in nonreciprocal partner violence were women. This finding surprised Whitaker and his colleagues, they admitted in their study report. As for physical injury due to intimate partner violence, it was more likely to occur when the violence was reciprocal than nonreciprocal. And while injury was more likely when violence was perpetrated by men, in relationships with reciprocal violence it was the men who were injured more often (25 percent of the time) than were women (20 percent of the time). "This is important as violence perpetrated by women is often seen as not serious," Whitaker and his group stressed.
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/15/31-a
All these ads will do is to instill fear into our children. Girls will be needlessly afraid of boys and boys will develop a low self esteem and have all hope stolen from them. This does not help stop the violence, it will increase it because it only looks at ONE SIDE! When society depicts that only men are the abuser, we enable women to be abusive as they will not seek help for abusing their spouse or their children as they will not see it as abuse. If they do, they may not seek help since they may fear they are the only woman who is abusive and will thus feel like a freak.
If we do not look at both sides of this issue, we will only make the problem worse. More women are being harmed by the VAWA and its one sided approach then are being helped. Why is it so hard to realize that girls can learn how to abuse from their mothers just as well as boys can from their fathers? Even worse, they also learn they can get away with it.
We need to encourage each person who realizes they may have violent tendencies to seek help before it becomes a crime. We can only do this by honestly presenting the real information on domestic abuse and encouraging personal and accountability from both men and women, not just from the men.
VAWA: Harmful To Women?
Has VAWA Delivered on its Promises to Women?
There are some resources you can check:
http://www.mediaradar.org/
RADAR Special Reports
Effects of VAWA
· Threat to Families
· VAWA Discriminates Against Male Victims
· Abuse of Domestic Restraining Orders
· Justice Denied: Arrest Policies for DV
· Bias in the Judiciary
· A Culture of False Allegations
· Has VAWA Delivered on its Promises to Women?
Has VAWA Delivered on its Promises to Women? http://shatterdmen.com/Childmurders.htm http://www.shatterdmen.com/Bitter.htm Pastor Kenneth Deemer Director Shattered MenP.O. BOX 166MARION INDIANA 46952-0166 shatteredmen@earthlink.net JUNE is Domestic Violence Against Men Awareness Month
shatteredmen at October 28, 2008 2:49 PM
Those aren't the facts.
More child-slayings and domestic violence against children are perpetrated by women then men.
Also, the rate of men murdering their partners and women murdering their partners was EQUAL in the 1970s. The only thing that changed is that women murder their partners less now then they did then.
Something happened to change it since then; either women murder men at the same rate but get away with now, or some other pressure was removed. If it's reason number two we should investigate why so we can figure out how to reduce the number of murdered women.
One change was the creation of DV services for women; maybe men need the same to get away from violent abusers before they're tempted to lash out lethally?
typhonblue at October 28, 2008 3:25 PM
Yunno. I really wish those buses would post this information on their side:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm06/figure4_2.htm
For those of you not inclined to check the link, it is from the US Government that shows that women are more that TWICE as likely to murder their children than any other perpetrator. THATS RIGHT. MOTHERS KILL MORE CHILDREN THAN FATHERS.
It is time to show that women are just as cupable, just as hideous, just as predatory (if not MORE) than men.
David at October 28, 2008 3:30 PM
It is time to show that women are just as cupable, just as hideous, just as predatory (if not MORE) than men.
I'm willing to go with just as much, but not more so. Women generally spend more time with their children than men do, which increases the pressures of parenthood and presents more opportunities for them to hurt their kids. Women who kill their kids are still awful, but not necessarily because they're MORE predatory. They're just more likely to reach their breaking point and snap.
MonicaP at October 28, 2008 4:25 PM
This is the second time today that I've been completely nauseated.
Here's what prompted the first time - a Clay Christian Ministry video of kids singing out their support of California Proposition 8. That'd be the one aimed at stripping same-sex couples of their right to marry.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/28/proposition_8/
catspajamas at October 28, 2008 5:00 PM
Maybe the kids just want a mom and a dad - yunno, the normal stuff human beings are entitled to.
David at October 28, 2008 5:22 PM
@MonicaP...
Disagree. One has the propensity to be violent - or does not. Your position requires that abuse is inevitable and is therefore only a matter of time.
gwallan at October 28, 2008 5:51 PM
I haven't had a chance to check out all the links, and will try. My question-one almost always asked by Amy-is what was the methodoligy in those studies? I hope I can find that out in the links.
Because you can make a study find pretty much any outcome you want. That's not hard. Conducting one that's unbiased and accurate is hard. And we all know most people's aversion to hard work.
Of course more women kill kids than men. More women are with them. I wonder what the stats would show if it was adjusted for primary-caregivers only? Would the same percentage of primary-care-giving men commit child murder as primary-care-giving women? You rarely go find a stange kid to kill. You off your own, after they just you through the freakin' wall 1 too many times, with no sleep for god knows how long. Not less horrible, but that's how it happens. Just like you don't kill some random guy, you kill the guy who's been driving you batty by loading the dishwasher wrong and farting on your couch. Proximity is everything.
I still say people whine about "abuse" way too often. Crying wolf is never smart.
momof3 at October 28, 2008 5:54 PM
Jeff writes:
"The disbelief in violent women is rooted in unwarranted ideas about female superiority."
On the contrary, it is rooted in unwarranted ideas about female inferiority... the idea that women are such weak little things that they can do no harm.
Like children. Who among us would hit back if a child attacked us? Yet children, too, can seriously injure someone, but if you hit back you are fucked.
NicoleK at October 28, 2008 5:58 PM
The fact is more men than women, kill men, women and children.
Well, since it is a fact that blacks murder something like seven times as many people as whites do, then these are also, by DART standards, at least as justified:
One day, a black man will kill me.
(Black child pictured) When I grow up, I will kill someone.
Statistically speaking, both those statements are more justified than what DART displayed.
And are completely horrible.
For DART, there is no atonement, other than immediate disbandment, that is sufficient.
Hey Skipper at October 28, 2008 6:20 PM
"I turned around and there was this little kid ... and the little bastard shot me in the ass" - The Waco Kid.
brian at October 28, 2008 7:14 PM
The knee-jerk feminist lobby used phony claims of abuse to justify IMBRA, a new federal law that criminalizes communication between American men and foreign women via internet. It is now a federal crime to send an email to a Canadian woman unless you are first subjected to a criminal background check, etc., etc.
NGOs representing women who get literally millions of dollars of taxpayer money annually told Congress that American men who meet foreign women via internet subject those women to high rates of abuse. Only problem is that the sole study of this subject, done by the INS in 1999, showed that such international relationships have an abuse rate 1/7th that of domestic relationships. But statistics mean nothing to advocates who are promoting and protecting their jobs and careers.
For more information about IMBRA see www.onlinedatingrights.com
Tristan Laurent at October 28, 2008 8:01 PM
MonicaP, I agree with you over all but do find the "women spend more time" as begging, given the number of children in daycare, the number of women working, as well as the part of the statistics that show men as more likely to protect children against the mother abuser than the opposite.
The real issue is the portrayal of men in our current cultural myths. If women are no less likely to abuse their children, why is the portrayal of the abuser as overwhelmingly male?
The problems of DV and child abuse will not be reduced so long as half the picture is ignored.
Ariel at October 28, 2008 8:44 PM
I would like to remind everyone who is really paying for these ads....WE are.
It comes from Joe Biden's Violence Against Women Act
Please note that although the feminist claim the VAWA is gender neutral, I urge you to read for yourself and decide for yourself if it is indeed gender neutral
Also please note who had a major part in writing this act:
Senator Joseph Biden, the Delaware Democrat who once chaired the Senate Judiciary Committee, first proposed the VAWA in 1990. The bill was a collaborative effort, with key roles played by Victoria Nourse, then Senate Judiciary Committee counsel, and Sally Goldfarb, then NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund (NOW LDEF) staff attorney. A broad range of feminist groups offered input and support, and NOW LDEF's Pat Reuss lent lobbying expertise.
Radical feminist wrote this act. Would not this be like asking the klu klux klan to write laws concerning racial relations?
I ask you to substitute the word "women" in any of this with Black, Asians, or any other group. Would it be fair? Would it be Just? Would it stand the test of the Equal protection clause of the
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
This is the same Joe Biden that made this statement:
"In my house, being raised with a sister and three brothers, there
was an absolute – it was a nuclear sanction, if under any
circumstances, for any reason, no matter how justified, even self-
defense – if you ever touched your sister, not figuratively,
literally. My sister, who is my best friend, my campaign manager, my
confidante, grew up with absolute impunity in our household. And I
have the bruises to prove it. I mean that sincerely. I am not
exaggerating when I say that."
"And I have the bruises to prove it."
Check out Joe Biden Issue Position: Women:
http://www.shatterdmen.com/Bidden.htm
shatteredmen at October 28, 2008 11:18 PM
Well, the only DV incident in my life involved my ex-wife punching me on the forehead. Why did she do it, and why just once?
Because she wanted me to hit her back so that she could use the DV laws to end visitation with my children.
Did I hit her back? No. But the cops arrested me anyhow, and surprise, I could not see my children again for months until the charges were mitigated.
Think that was the end of it, well guess again. When one of the children described her sexual abuse, which I knew to match her unusual sexual interests, I did what I was required by law to do. I reported it.
Unfortunately the people who investigate child sexual abuse are the same ilk as the DART advertisers. "Women don't do that sort of thing."
They were more interested in that one DV charge from the past that was dropped than any reports by the child of sexual abuse by the mother, even when her brother was sent to prison for molesting two little neighbor girls and she admitted being molested herself when she was a child.
So now I haven't seen my children in over seven years, have no idea how much abuse they experience, and there is nothing I can do about it because I'm the wrong gender, thanks to people like the DART advertisers, Joe Biden, and thanks to your tax dollars.
Pre-judging guilt or innocence on gender is just as wrong as basing it on race. I have a dream that some day a man will be judged based on the content of his character instead of his type of genitalia. Meanwhile, our tax dollars continue to go to hate groups to fund hate campaigns like at DART.
DcFather at October 29, 2008 2:04 AM
"Ya can't argue with facts."
Except, of course, with other, superior facts.
"The fact is more men than women, kill men, women and children."
Noooo; actually, the fact is more men kill themselves than both genders combined kill men, women, and children.
"See www.FamilyLawcourts.com/domestic.html
and
and www.FamilyLawCourts.com/badcop.html"
Noooo; you see CDC-NCIPC WISQARS Fatal Injuries: Leading Causes of Death Reports, source of the folowing --
Total MALE suicides versus ALL homicides in the usa, 1999-2005:
173,833 to 124,813, or approximately 1.4 to 1.0 -- i.e., 7 male suicides for every 5 homicides by both genders, in round numbers.
So the majority of deliberate, intentional murders of both genders in this country are in fact actually SUICIDES by ONE GENDER EXCLUSIVELY.
"That's not male bashing. Men just can't admit misogyny works well in the U.S."
Noooo; leaving that particular fact out is, in fact, male bashing.
But people like you just can't admit that misandry works far "better", and more broadly, deeply, and thoroughly, in the usa.
And yet, you have the astoundingly ignorant conceit to try to castigate men for that?
For killing ourselves in significantly greater numbers than both genders, put together, kill other people?
You have the nigh-insanely stupid femelitist idiocy to accuse men who kill themselves significantly more often than either gender is killed by either gender. . .of misogyny?
NO.
WRONG.
You FAIL.
Acksiom at October 29, 2008 2:36 AM
What would be the reaction if the little boy who DART endorses as somebody who will grow up to beat his wife was black, especially if the victim/female was white?
Guaranteed, that would be national headline news claiming racism, but somehow it's ok as long as the prejudged perpetrator-to-be is white (and of course male).
What I think needs more attention, more than domestic violence against male or female, is that the man-hating feminists are mostly just useful idiots for those who promote prejudice and divisiveness.
The same groups behind promoting hatred towards men, especially fathers because that destroys families, were once behind promoting hatred towards blacks. It's the only hate and divisiveness based on prejudice that still works, so that's what they do now.
The sooner we all recognize it and demand it be stopped, the sooner we'll have real decreases in violence between us, and the better off our children are going to be.
DcFather at October 29, 2008 3:01 AM
Acksiom, I like your post and you'll be fun when you're older, but I can't wait for teenagers to stop using the world 'fail'. Presumably this will happen after they get jobs and try to pull that shit on a boss or some other superior.
(Note concurrent boldface and italics. This effect is identical to when a teen boy deploys the word verbally. It asks the whole world to stop and take notice. Well, not really to take notice, just to stop and deeply breathe in the moment of a youngster's perfect, unassailable correct-itude.)
I hate "fail."
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at October 29, 2008 3:02 AM
Crid --
Noooo; I do not like your behavior, so you should change to suit my personal preferences.
Acksiom at October 29, 2008 3:41 AM
Thank you for posting this. And let me add also that domestic violence also includes children and either partner can be the batterer.
Patrick at October 29, 2008 5:46 AM
As we cite the varieties of DV/IPV that abound in our arguably dysfunctional society, let's not forget this one: elderly abuse.
Wherein the heirs to an estate or surviving children abuse the elderly in their care.
But yes, DV/IPV knows no bounds... despite the incessant rhetoric that it is somehow thew sole and exclusive domain of the Ultimate Victim- women and their progeny.
Gunner Retired
Gunner Retired at October 29, 2008 5:54 AM
I thought a "tosspot" was a drunk.
Sterling, juvenile conclusions aside, I thank you for sharing your story. And Amy, thank you for taking a stand against this socially-sanctioned sexism. I'm seeing those kinds of ads here, too. The billboard here says something like "Real men don't beat their wives." How about something like, "Real adults don't hit each other?"
Patrick at October 29, 2008 6:07 AM
If the parents of the young boy featured in the second ad knew that he was going to be used in this way, then they are unfit, and ought to be relieved of his care.
If they did NOT know (and I suspect they did not, for who would subject their child to such ignominy in the Internet era), then they need to sue the living fuck out of DART and The Family Place such that they are no longer going concerns.
brian at October 29, 2008 7:09 AM
I grew up with absolute immunity too. And my brothers caught hell if they hit me, although they learned young that's not what a man does. Maybe it's just southern men who are raised this way, to never hit a woman, and to know that a woman is just not the physical threat men are. I'm sorry, but I don't call a 110 pound woman slapping a 180 pound guy abuse. That's just a wimpy man, in my book. And no, I don't go around hitting people.
SHould guys get equal protectin under the law? Sure. Would I ever respect or associate with a man who called the cops on a girl for smacking them? Personally, no.
momof3 at October 29, 2008 8:01 AM
MonicaP writes:
What you're "willing to go with" is irrelevant, as if you get to decide what statistics say or don't say. The facts do not bear out what you're "willing to go with" so deal with it.
Patrick at October 29, 2008 8:26 AM
Are you KIDDING me? After all the writing you did (and it's a lot!) about African Americans being statistically more likely to raisd kids without fathers, etc. etc., you are now defending men? Men are statistically WAY more likely to beat and kill a woman than the other way around. Yes, sometimes women get away with shit, but, hey!, sometimes African Americans are married! Hellllo!
Monica at October 29, 2008 8:37 AM
Amy please check these links and I think you will be well surprised to see what this womans true motivations are.
http://www.guidestar.org/pqShowGsReport.do?partner=grantexplorer&npoId=237424
http://www.dmagazine.com/ME2/Audiences/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=test&type=MultiPublishing&mod=PublishingTitles&mid=7155F7796F354F21B1183937D847D6DF&AudId=29CB3DCAC7E94A08B642EC371FE6E70B&tier=4&id=71321C9B4EDC4902A7A01E2F15BCE4CF
This place recieves almost 3 Mil a year in Government grants yet they offer no services to men in the same situations.
Didnt we just see in California where Marc Angelucci just won case that started with similar issues. You cannot recieve govt money and not offer your services equally without regards to gender or racial background.
The first link shows thier financial statement from 2006 the other is a report done in 2000 which profiles a former employee dropping some really serious accusations.
Make for a good read.
TOMD
The Other Mike D at October 29, 2008 8:45 AM
Monica - you really don't want to have this argument. The statistics are NOT on your side here.
Women don't "sometimes" get away with shit. They do so with alarming regularity. Try north of 90%.
There are organizations dedicated to "helping" women get sole custody of their children by coaching them (the woman and her children) to allege physical and/or sexual abuse where none happened. To stage an abuse event. To file false claims. To incite a physical reaction from the man.
Each and every one of those things would be illegal in any other context. But women not only get away with them, but are routinely awarded for doing them.
Women differ from blacks in that regard. Black men are held to account for their behavior, and if some are to be believed, they do so out of proportion to their white peers. Black women? Not so much.
How many women got away with criminal activity towards men in the past two years? Who knows? At least two of them made national news though. Crystal Mangum and Mary Winkler. In the first case, the DA who pushed the case after he knew it was bullshit lost his job, and may go to prison. In the second case, nobody got punished for anything. Well, except for the dead guy.
brian at October 29, 2008 8:57 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/10/28/hating_men_for.html#comment-1601012">comment from Monica68 percent of all births to African-American women are out-of-wedlock births. That's an enormous problem. Most men are not domestic abusers -- but some men are. Most women are not domestic abusers, but some women are. And see the Mary Winkler link above. And my column below in the post. Women tend to get away with it -- sometimes with murder -- or have their abuse laughed off. And I think it's horrible that all men are demonized as abusers by this campaign. Also, men who are domestically abused often have nowhere to turn, thanks to women-only shelters.
Stat on African-American single mothers:
http://www.tgsrm.org/African%20American%20Families.html
Amy Alkon at October 29, 2008 9:03 AM
Amy second link.Thanks for the resuce.Sorry for tripping the spam filter.
http://www.dmagazine.com/ME2/Audiences/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=test&type=MultiPublishing&mod=PublishingTitles&mid=7155F7796F354F21B1183937D847D6DF&AudId=29CB3DCAC7E94A08B642EC371FE6E70B&tier=4&id=71321C9B4EDC4902A7A01E2F15BCE4CF
The Other Mike D at October 29, 2008 9:11 AM
It is useless to argue with ideologues. Ideologues believe what they want to believe, period. It doesn't matter how solid the facts are against their case. They are brainwashed.
Only an ideologue can believe that women do not commit DV and only men do. Only an ideologue could have conceived the Duluth Model.
If and when I see ads like this in public where I live, I take them down or deface them. I am more than happy to risk getting arrested for the truth. Action counts. Words are just words.
nemesis at October 29, 2008 9:14 AM
momof3 says:
I'm sorry, but I don't call a 110 pound woman slapping a 180 pound guy abuse. That's just a wimpy man, in my book.
So would it be okay in your book for a 110 male to slap around his 180 pound girlfriend? Or would that be abuse because it's the guy doing the hitting? How about in a lesbian relationship where one partner is 110 pounds and the other is 180 pounds? Is it okay for the smaller one to slap the bigger one around, but not vice versa?
Regardless of size or gender, neither men nor women should have to put up with any physical abuse, no matter how insignificant it may be. And FYI, the size difference isn't really much of an advantage unless the physically bigger person is fighting back. I had nearly 100 pounds on my psycho ex-gf, but she was still able to give me a black eye, and the punches to the groin still hurt like hell.
No matter what a woman says or does, and how mad I may get at her as a result, our laws say that I must control my anger and restrain myself from hitting her. Please explain why women shouldn't be held to the same standard.
Spork at October 29, 2008 9:22 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/10/28/hating_men_for.html#comment-1601026">comment from SporkExactly right, Spork. And many times, women assault with objects. Including guns. I don't care how many pounds you have on you, your flesh will not stop a speeding bullet. (Think of the Indiana Jones bit where the guy's waving the scimitars and Harrison Ford just pulls his gun and shoots him.)
Amy Alkon at October 29, 2008 9:40 AM
momof3 -
I'm sorry, but I don't call a 110 pound woman slapping a 180 pound guy abuse. That's just a wimpy man, in my book. And no, I don't go around hitting people.
Which is why most women attackers use a fucking weapon, or were you missing something here?
And just because abuse might happen to be verbal, doesn't mean it isn't abuse. If I started reaming my partner in ways that I know (because of our intimacy) will hurt her and hurt her a lot - it's fucking abuse. No different than if I were to ream my six year old, calling him stupid and doing my best to make him believe he is worthless. Sorry, but abuse is abuse and that certainly qualifies.
The fact that one might stay with their abuser, doesn't make the abuse any less real, it just indicates a deeper pathology to the behavior. Usually comes from people who were abused by their parents or primary care-givers as a child.
News flash - people who were abused by a parent, no matter how bad the abuse, often still love that parent. It's hardwired into us to love the people who provide for us, when we are kids. When they get older, they often look for someone like their parents - most people do. Those who were abused, find themselves an abuser - and they will genuinely love them and stick with them.
DuWayne at October 29, 2008 10:00 AM
I would also note that men are pretty well discriminated against when trying to receive help in times of need.
I had the misfortune of not knowing for sure, if I could keep a roof over my children's heads, until we went back to MI. Then my partner left (temporarily, because she thought she was too much a burden) and suddenly we were in real trouble.
There are better than two dozen shelters in the Portland metro area, that take in women and children. There are four that take in men only. There are only two that will take men with kids or families.
Throughout the process, I was repeatedly told that the shelters were full. In desperation I called Catholic Family Services and explained how desperate we actually were and asked if they had any suggestions. The lady I was talking to said that if we were really desperate, my partner should call the police and report me for domestic abuse. I would only be in jail for a couple days, but they would get her and the kids into shelter.
I explained about my partner leaving and asked if the same would work if I called and reported her for abuse. She said it would probably get momma thrown in jail and get the boys into a shelter, but they (the state) wouldn't be able to shelter me with them. I asked who the hell would take care of my kids and she explained they would be temporarily placed with a foster family.
Right after that conversation, I sank to the lowest depths of despair, in this, the worse experience of my life. I literally vomited blood when I got off the phone.
Plenty of help for women and women with kids.
Men - virtually nothing.
DuWayne at October 29, 2008 10:13 AM
Monica Says:
"Are you KIDDING me? After all the writing you did (and it's a lot!) about African Americans being statistically more likely to raisd kids without fathers, etc. etc., you are now defending men? Men are statistically WAY more likely to beat and kill a woman than the other way around. Yes, sometimes women get away with shit, but, hey!, sometimes African Americans are married! Hellllo!"
Monica that is a ludicrious statement and has NO factual evidence behind it other then myth fostered by those organizations trying to create hysteria. A study published in 2007 reads as such:
"Apparently at the time of this writing the most recent large scale study (11,000 men and women) is one conducted primarily by Harvard researchers and published in the American Journal of Public Health in 2007:
Almost 25% of the people surveyed — 28% of women and 19% of men — said there was some violence in their relationship. Women admitted perpetrating more violence (25% versus 11%) as well as being victimized more by violence (19% versus 16%) than men did. According to both men and women, 50% of this violence was reciprocal, that is, involved both parties, and in those cases the woman was more likely to have been the first to strike.
Violence was more frequent when both partners were involved, and so was injury — to either partner. In these relationships, men were more likely than women to inflict injury (29% versus 19%). When the violence was one-sided, both women and men said that women were the perpetrators about 70% of the time. Men were more likely to be injured in reciprocally violent relationships (25%) than were women when the violence was one-sided (20%)."
So I have my facts and others that support it but where is yours. show me a study done with the credentials of this one (Not some NOW funded man battering) and I will believe you. Even domestic violence experts are starting to agree more and more that women are as likely if not more likely to commit DV. Men are just less likely to report it because of the way that police handle these calls. A man can be bleeding from wounds inflicted and will still be arrested as the agressor thanks to VAWA.
But thats ok with you right because after all he had it coming. hes just a man after all he needs to "man up". But if he doesnt take the abuse hes a "deadbeat" and he "ran out on his responsibilites". If a woman does the same shes a "victim" or a hero for standing up.
Funny how that works.
now come back with some real data or let the grown up finish our conversations.
TOMD
The Other Mike D at October 29, 2008 10:14 AM
If someone slaps you and you stick around, I don't think you get to whine about abuse. If someone yells at you constantly and you stick around, I don't think you get to whine about abuse. Where is the personal responsibility? You respect yourself enough to leave, or you don't. The laws should be to help those who CAN'T leave. Not someone (of either gender) who is nightly told their dinner fucking sucked but chooses to stay. As I said, YMMV.
Duwayne, there are 2 people I feel sorry for in your story, but you are neither of them. I am helping a dirt-poor Ike evacuee couple with a 1 year old, here in Austin. They lost everything they owned in their rented apartment when the storm came, had a 1 year old, and mom gave birth 5 days after Ike hit. I just witnessed for them giving the baby up for adoption. Did they not love it? Hardly. They took a long, rational look at their situation and what they could offer or provide, and did the most loving thing a parent can do. The new parents were infertile, and ecstatic. I find it hard to conceieve of the level of love and unselfishness those parents who gave their precious baby a better life. They who were just kicked out of their fema hotel and have nothing, nothing at all, mom and other kid are in a shelter while dad tries to find work elsewhere. ( NOT saying the government should have done more for them. They should have valued their things enough to insure them. I'm saying they got a shit hand dealt, and didn't want to make the baby suffer it)
I'm just sayin'.
momof3 at October 29, 2008 12:27 PM
momof3 -
Wow, you actually do have some fucking sympathy. Makes you slightly less of a fucked up bitch than I first supposed.
Had we the foreknowledge that this was going to happen, we would have done the same for our baby.
And I haven't complained a bit about the government not doing enough for us. Part of the reason we're in as much of a mess as we are, was because I didn't want services that we qualified for. Possibly the biggest fucking screw-up of my life.
That was a nice way to completely avoid the fucking point though. While there are a great many charitable supports for women and women with kids, there are a very few for men and even fewer for men with kids. I could get into a shelter alone, today, if I were a drug addict. But they don't allow kids.
If someone slaps you and you stick around, I don't think you get to whine about abuse.
That's because you're too fucking dense to grasp fairly basic human psychology. The same psychological concept that leads a great many folks into relationships with people who share a great many characteristics with their parents, lead a great many of the abused, to live with and love their abuser.
But then, I have found you to be an incredibly spiteful, hateful excuse for a human being, so I really don't expect you to get it.
DuWayne - water birthing fan at October 29, 2008 12:50 PM
mom3 - Duwayne, there are 2 people I feel sorry for in your story, but you are neither of them.
I'm sorry, but I don't call a 110 pound woman slapping a 180 pound guy abuse. That's just a wimpy man, in my book.
Would I ever respect or associate with a man who called the cops on a girl for smacking them?
This comes right out of the Feminist playbook. When facts and logic won't work, go for the shaming tactics.
Welcome to the land of equality, that Feminism so loudly demanded. If women can't accept the responsibility and consequnces for thier actions, then equality doesn't mean a thing. You hit me, I hit back. If it's called self-defense for a woman, then it is the same thing for a man. Period.
Maybe it's just southern men who are raised this way
You're right, because southern women certainly aren't raised with the same restraints. They can hit, verbally abuse, cry rape at the drop of a hat with no reprecussions if it is false (Duke rape case), shoot thier husbands in the back when they are sleeping and get off scott free (Mary Winkler).... you get the point.
Women are just as violent, more verbally abusive, and are likelier to be abusive of thier children.
The funniest(or saddest, depending on your point of view), is that these ads state that ONLY men are the abusers. And that is the injustice and inequality that is at the forefront of the problem.
If someone slaps you and you stick around, I don't think you get to whine about abuse. If someone yells at you constantly and you stick around, I don't think you get to whine about abuse. Where is the personal responsibility?
If you are a father, and you walk out of that situation and take the kids, you get charged with kidnapping and the kids go right back to the abuser. You call the police and report a DV incident, they show up and arrest the man. It's called the Primay Agressor. And the man can be bleeding from knife wounds, bullet holes, whatever, and he gets arrested.
If I was faced with leaving and having to let my kids stay in that situation, I'd stay and do my damndest to protect them. No matter what happens to me. So saying that you stick around and don't get to whine about abuse? I have to say BS. And since women file for 70% of divorces and get custody over 90% of the time..... what would you do in a father's shoes?
wolfboy69 at October 29, 2008 1:41 PM
"I grew up with absolute immunity too. And my brothers caught hell if they hit me, although they learned young that's not what a man does. Maybe it's just southern men who are raised this way, to never hit a woman, and to know that a woman is just not the physical threat men are. I'm sorry, but I don't call a 110 pound woman slapping a 180 pound guy abuse. That's just a wimpy man, in my book. And no, I don't go around hitting people. '
Momof3, do you even listen to yourself? You say if a 120 ln. woman slaps a 180 lb. man, he's just a wiomp? so what is he supposed to do, in your book? Stand there and take it, and be a wimp by your lights, or slap the hoe (pardon the Southernism) back, and be a wimp, by your lights?
Momof3, do you believe there is such a thing as emotional abuse? If a husband looks at his preganant wife and calls her a fat sow, is that abuse? If he tels her that sex with her is boring, so he's going to find a girlfriend and brag to her friends about it, is that abuse? If he tells her he only married her hairy white ass because he wanted white kids, is that abuse? I'm just dying to hear your thoughts on these examples of non-abuse.
Jim at October 29, 2008 1:51 PM
Sorry,
It's called the Primay Agressor.
should be:
It's called the Primary Agressor.
wolfboy69 at October 29, 2008 2:28 PM
To all,
It comes down to the fact that, if you have gone through domestic violence at the hand of your wife, girlfriend, etc.. or know someone who has, then you KNOW the truth. And the truth is that woman-on-man violence does happen with extreme regularity and the legal/social aftermath of it is VERY one-sided and unfair to the male "victim". I am Speaking as an ex-husband of a physically & emotionally abusive wife. I was put through the anti-male biased ringer...otherwise known as the Delaware family court system(thanks Joe Biden!!!). I can attest to the way today's society & legal system treats this type of abuse as a non-issue that is often laughed at. I can also echo the few stories above of those men who were abused by their female partner only to be taken away themselves by the authorities and successfully prosecuted as the "real" domestic abuser....leading to the loss of thousands of the man's dollars, self respect, and the opportunity to see his children. Off the record, of course, even police officers themselves will tell you how biased the system is and that you don't really have much of a chance succeeding in the legal system as a man(that's what at least one officer told me!).
The bottom line about these DART ads is that they are rediculous, taxpayer-funded, hate-filled "teachers" of our children and they are teaching them that boys/men are evil pre-destined abusers/killers & girls/women are to avoid any & all contact with any men at all cost lest they end up dead! I thank God that I know longer live in DE and, especially, that I don't live in Dallas & have to be confronted with this rubbish!
phearly at October 29, 2008 5:17 PM
Well, your book is a woman's book. The last thing men should do is take advice form women on how to be a man.
Feminazis like to define masculinity as the ability to bend over and take the most from a bitch. It's a typical feminist inversion of meaning.
In the real world, where men define masculinity, bending over and taking it is wimpy. Refusing to take crap from a bitch, or anyone else, is typically masculine.
Yeah. That's a ringing endorsement of equality under the law. You're really standing up for principles there, lady.
Eh, I guess I agree. It's not a bad thing for a man to be deprived of association with a man-hater. Personally speaking, of course.
Jeff at October 29, 2008 8:44 PM
Oh good cow, this back and forth is making me dizzy. Not all men are abusers, not all women are victims. to say so is infantile and ridiculous.
I grew up in an abusive household, know what it looks, smells, and sounds like. I raised my boys to never hit a girl, but if a girl was hitting them, by all means hold them off and get someone to call the cops. Goes the same for my daughter. No starting the hitting, but by all means protect yourself and get someone to call the cops.
Come on folks, stand up for yourselves, and stop being victims on either side. Male or female, you have a right to stop someone from hurting you. Male or female, if you hurt someone, you should go to jail.
I am so tired of people expecting my son to be an abuser of women or girls. I am equally tired of people expecting my daughter to allow herself to be a victim of violence.
Those stupid ads on the DART system just perpetuate the myths. Sickening.
k at October 29, 2008 9:24 PM
I urge each of you to file a complaint with DART and to call the Dallas Mayor's office, Child Protective services and who ever else you can think of such as the chamber of commerce and report this as child abuse. DART is making light of the protests they have received and acting like it is no big deal. Let us let them know it is a big deal! This is a copy of my on line report on the DART form:
I want to let you know that I plan to file child abuse charges for DART and The Family Place. I sent you information on this but since I did not use this form, I guess you trashed it.
You can find that letter here:
http://www.shatterdmen.com/DART.htm
What does this ad tell our girls? Our Boys?
I have counseled far too many who were told they would never amount to anything when they were children and now you are telling boys and girls all over Dallas that they too will not find their dreams come true, that boys will become monsters and girls will be murdered if they get married.
This is...CHILD ABUSE and as a pastor and a RN I do have an obligation to report it to the authorities.
Pastor Kenneth Deemer
Director Shattered Men
P.O. BOX 166
MARION INDIANA 46952-0166
shatteredmen at October 29, 2008 9:43 PM
No one has brought up any of the male "reactions" to women's anger and violence we all see all over the tv, movies, etc.. Woman, screaming and throwing shit; man, ducking and grinning. There's an idea that women losing their cool is cute, which needs to be quashed. There's a definite segment of the male population that profess to liking a little crazy in their women.
Now, I personally think those men are morons. But I thought I might bring up.
Christina at October 29, 2008 10:14 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/10/28/hating_men_for.html#comment-1601228">comment from ChristinaNo one has brought up any of the male "reactions" to women's anger and violence we all see all over the tv, movies, etc.. Woman, screaming and throwing shit; man, ducking and grinning. There's an idea that women losing their cool is cute, which needs to be quashed.
I brought it up, right in the blog item. It's in my column about the woman throwing an ashtray at her husband's head. See above.
Amy Alkon at October 30, 2008 3:58 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2008/10/28/hating_men_for.html#comment-1601229">comment from kCome on folks, stand up for yourselves, and stop being victims on either side.
Actually, a friend of mine is a cop who works with domestic abuse victims, and she says what it takes for many to get out is going to a group where others talk about their experiences as abuse victims. Otherwise, there's often a good deal of denial.
Amy Alkon at October 30, 2008 4:01 AM
"There's a definite segment of the male population that profess to liking a little crazy in their women. "
It can lead to some good sex, for sure :)
momof3 at October 30, 2008 7:10 AM
"Momof3, do you believe there is such a thing as emotional abuse? If a husband looks at his preganant wife and calls her a fat sow, is that abuse? If he tels her that sex with her is boring, so he's going to find a girlfriend and brag to her friends about it, is that abuse? If he tells her he only married her hairy white ass because he wanted white kids, is that abuse? I'm just dying to hear your thoughts on these examples of non-abuse."
I'd say he's an asshole, and she should leave. Why would anyone stay with that? Whether it came from a man or woman? I would not call it abuse. I would not say he needs to go to jail. And I would not say my tax dollars need to be spent "helping her" not be with an asshole. If we start filing the jails with assholes, there'll be very few people left outside. Certainly NOT something to call the cops about-good lord! Again, man (or woman) up, ackowledge you choose shittily, and stike off to start anew.
I really don't know where you men live, that think the law always sides with women like that. My college roommate got to spend a night in jail cause she yelled at her live-in and he called the cops. She didn't touch him, and he welcomed her back the next day. Wanted to "teach her a lesson". Big man!! I've had a cop ask a boyfriend if he wanted me arrested, for pitching his backpack out the front door (he wanted to leave, I was helping him pack). Again, didn't touch the man. Soooo, men are discriminated against where?
I've never known an abused woman, so I can't say as to whether they would have an equal time getting a man arrested. Check that, at my last apaperment, I heard yelling and banging coming from the downstairs apartment at 3 am. Went down, listened at the door, she was screaming "get away from me!!" so I called the cops. There was a broken-down door in their apartment (doubt she did that, she was little) and she was bloody. Guy told the cops she had mental issues and had hurt herself. They left. Yeah, men sure get the shit-end of the stick, don't they?
momof3 at October 30, 2008 7:22 AM
Where the fuck do you live?
Here in CT they passed one of those "primary aggressor" laws that the VAWA-types so love. They had so many problems with trying to decide who to arrest that now they just arrest everyone and let the lawyers sort it out (or so I've heard - I've not been on the receiving end of such things).
But I do know that 2 or 3 cars typically respond to a DV call in these parts. And nobody leaves happy.
brian at October 30, 2008 8:00 AM
k wrote: "I raised my boys to never hit a girl, but if a girl was hitting them, by all means hold them off and get someone to call the cops."
I can tell you how that will come out. Your son will be tried and convicted of assault, for restraining her. The girl will walk free, and will brag to all of her friends about how she pwned your son.
This goes back to momof3's point about slapping. Yes, there was a time when the code of chivalry allowed women to slap men -- but it was an allowance to be used judiciously, against men who got fresh or otherwise treated their women crudely. It was not an unconstrained right. Women who went around gratitutiously slapping men quickly found themselves socially ostracized, and a men was completely within her rights to physically restrain a women who tried to slap without good reason.
There are two big differences today. A women that I've never met has a near-absolute legal right to walk up to me and slap me, for no reason at all, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it. If I try to stop her, I have committed assault. But it doesn't really matter because women don't do open-handed slaps anymore. That's so 1950s. Today's modern grrl reaches for a weapon. A beer bottle to the side of the man's head is so much more satisfying. Or, if she doesn't like the sight of blood, the false-rape charge is pretty effective too. But nothing equalizes that 180-vs-110 lb. difference like a gun; after all, that's why guns were invented. Either way, she has near-total legal immunity, and I pretty much have no rights at all. Yeah, maybe I should walk away, but that's kind of hard to do if I'm dead.
Cousin Dave at October 30, 2008 8:40 AM
Speaking of DV, it appears a writer for the huffington post has committed a murder-suicide. She reportedly stabbed her lesbian lover 220 times in their home. They were going through a divorce.
Sio at October 30, 2008 10:17 AM
Reading this thread all the way through, particularly Duwayne's comments, has opened my eyes to some of the gender imbalance in our laws. It is absolutely absurd that a man would need to have himself reported for abuse to find shelter for his kids!
As I've mentioned before during previous abuse discussions, I own a small trailer park and see a fair amount of DV calls. In my experience, it is usually male on male, then male to female or reciprocal. I haven't witnessed any incident, at least in my park, of a female being the primary aggressor.
But that is just my experience, and we all process things through that filter. And, as a formerly abused spouse myself, I would tend to believe men are more often abusers because that is how I personally experienced abuse. So, I caution you men who have experienced female DV not to let it cloud your judgment either. Not all women are abusers, even though some are.
Yet, it seems clear from your stories - as well as those atrocious bus ads - that there is indeed a gender bias regarding DV in our country, and it shouldn't be there.
I am also friends with the guy from that ABC "Bachelor" show a few years back - Byron Velvick - and his fiance, Mary, punched him in the face during a drunken argument a couple of years ago and was arrested, even though he didn't want to press charges once the cops arrived. That was in the Tampa area, so maybe our state is just better at treating it more equally, but I would hope that those incidences of female DV would be handled the same way across the country. Men should not be hit - or degraded and threatened verbally -any more than women should be.
lovelysoul at October 30, 2008 1:40 PM
Momof3,
You still don't get it. Your answer for everything is just to leave. Why should a man or a woman have to leave his or her home to get some peace and have their dignity respected? Generally, as all the personal testimony above shows, a owman generally doesn't have to leave. So far so good. She may stillbe under threat form a stalking artner, os far not good enough. For men the situation is even worse, much worse.
Jim at October 30, 2008 3:35 PM
Why should the government have to forcibly remove the asshole you married? Poor judgement in mate selection is NOT abuse, and none of the government's damn business. Personal responsibility, people! You made the decision, you handle it! Like an ADULT, not like some schoolyard pansy running to tell the monitor "Jennie called me a poo-poohead!"
As I've stated many times, someone beating you is different, and is assault. I just think people yell "abuse" at any old thing nowadays. It's absurd. I also think, men, that if a woman is going to pick up a gun and kill you in your sleep, there are signs, and you would do well to heed them rather than stick around watching football. It doesn't come out of the blue, after all. Does it mean she's right? No. It's just common sense to leave someone with issues like that. If keeping the house is more inmportant to you than your safety, you own the blame for what happens equally, at least. Male or female.
Ditto women. If he's telling you what to wear and who to talk to, that doesn't bode well for your future. Again, common sense in keeping yourselves from these situations in the first place.
I live in Austin. My stepdad retired a Sheriff's Dept lieutenant north of houston, and has always warned me not to touch a man, or even stay in a place where a man might claim I did. Because there are a lot of officers out there who (he's quoting coworkers of his here) "would arrest that uppity bitch and show her a thing or two". And that's Texas, people. Not liberal Austin Texas, but real redneck texas. So where do you all live that men aren't believed offhand??
momof3 at October 30, 2008 5:10 PM
I work in a family shelter once a week, and no men over the age of 16 are allowed to live there. So if your whole family becomes homeless, Dad has to live somewhere else. If Mom is psycho, I'm not sure what happens... Dad can't live in the family shelter with the kids, though. Also, if you're a 17 year old boy, you're fucked, because you can't live in the family shelter, but you can't live in the adult male shelters. There are only a couple that take 16-18 year old boys.
NicoleK at October 30, 2008 6:55 PM
Dear Truth,
Here are the facts. Men ARE NOT the usual perpetrators of domestic violence. The Centers for Disease Control (hint: really reliable research) has shown that in non-reciprocal cases of domestic violence where only one partner is abusive, women are far more likely to be the initiator of violence. Yes, you read that right. Campaigns like the DART campaign only reinforce the myth as truth. See link:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/42/15/31-a
John at October 30, 2008 8:34 PM
I know this is a little late in the thread but it IS apropo....
http://www.kitchencontraptions.com/archives/005428.php
juliana at October 31, 2008 4:22 AM
Well, having been in one of those relationships, let me just add that this how it often happens: My ex knew, as a man, that it wasn't cool to get physical with me, but if he could push me to be the first one to strike, then he was justified.
He had an awful temper, so he'd yell - he'd get right up in my face, inches from me, so I could feel his hot angry breath. And when I'd try to retreat, he would block me...over and over. There was no escape. I couldn't leave the room, I couldn't find any space. He would back me up against a wall or corner, so I just had to take it - listen to every angry word - which could go on for a long time.
I'll admit, in a few of those moments, I gave him a slap across the face or a shove to get him to move out of the way. Bad idea! That only escalates things. I'm 110 and he's 195, so, then, he'd put his hands around my throat or push me down on the floor with a lot greater force.
Part of the psychology of a very manipulative abuser is to convince the victim that they "started it", that they "deserved it". He'd say, "I won't hit you, but if you strike me, I'll fight back!"
So, it was my fault, you see? Only I've been in healthy relationships since then - and am in one now - where that whole scenario would NEVER occur!
I'm not an abuser. I was in a dysfunctional relationship. And, if you find yourself having plates thrown at you, or being hit or screamed at, you are too.
In my experience, both people usually contribute to that dynamic somehow. I suspect that some of you guys knew how to push your wife's buttons to the point that they'd throw things at you.
It doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't necessary mean that she would do that with someone else. There may be something in the way that you interact in your relationships that provokes that sort of response. Especially if you find that this seems to occur in every relationship you have, then the problem likely lies with you. Either you're drawn to abusive women or your behavior contributes to creating a highly volatile environment.
At any rate, those statistics don't tell the whole story.
lovelysoul at October 31, 2008 6:13 AM
"I know that for every male abuser, there is a male victim. And where are the resources for them? Where are the shelters? Where are the TPO's and the tax payer funded counseling centers?"
By our calculations there are less than a handful of tax payer funded domestic violence centers that offer heterosexual men safe shelter, court advocacy, counseling, support groups, etc in the country i.e. services equal to what they have available for women. Those who work with LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bi and Transgender) victims/survivors have built programs throughout the country, however, there are still way too few of those to assist GBT victims.
As the founder of a national non profit agency that specializes in offering supportive services (sans the tax payer funding)to men in relationships with abusive women, I have been researching and calling these agencies for over eight years and it has been my experience that what most of these battered women's centers offer is "lip service" not real service to abused men (both gay and straight) and their children.
Will that change now that the Violence Against Women's Act (reauthorized and in place for over 2 years now)clearly states that the money in the Act can be used to help male victims also? IMHO, first it needs to be established that both abused men and abusive women exist in numbers greater than -0. For instance, this being Nat'l Domestic Violence Awareness Month, there have been all kinds of stories and articles on violence against women in the media across the country. In one story I read the battered women's advocate stated that 95% of all domestic violence is men abusing women and the other 5% is men abusing men. If only domestic violence was that uncomplicated. It's totally ludicrous and why the journalist didn't question that statistic is beyond me but here it is...people continue to promote the myth that abused men and abusive women do not exist.
As far as we are concerned here at the Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women if one child and father are in a violent home and need assistance to escape why should the victims gender prevent him from receiving support and state and federally funded services if he needs them?
Please keep on talking about this subject every chance you get! They can't ignore the truth forever!
Thanks,
Jan Elizabeth Brown, Founder & Director
Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women
Harmony, Maine
www.dahmw.org
Participants Needed for Study on Abused Men!
Are you between 18 and 59 years old and has your current or former female partner
assaulted you one time in the past 12 mos?
Please participate in our survery: www.clarku.edu/faculty/dhines
Male Victims of Domestic Violence- an interview with Jan Brown, Founder of the Domestic Abuse Helpline for Men and Women (16.2 Mb) (link below)
http://www.brookhavenhospital.com/Jan%20Brown%20podcast.mp3
Jan at October 31, 2008 10:09 AM
Men of all ages need to learn that domestic violence (DV) allegations are a potent weapons wielded overwhelmingly by women against men. A man with children who's been convicted of DV won't be able to get custody or shared parenting of children, or be shackled by supervised visitation when he seeks to see his children.
Aside from their use in preventing men from access to their kids, bogus DV accusations have become a popular form of harassment. The threshhold regarding what constitutes probable cause that DV occurred is very low. Oh what fun it is for an angry spouse to accuse a partner of DV based on flimsy evidence, have him jailed at least temporarily & forced to go to court, and have the court do nothing when the court fails to find that there was insufficient evidence for a conviction (or do nothing when the accuser commits perjury.)
Men be alert. You don't have to do anything to a partner to end up in jail, get thrown out of your home, and be unable to live a normal life due to the mistake of trusting someone who's untrustworthy. Lowlives are not uncommon among the female of the human species.
Iconoclast at October 31, 2008 5:14 PM
I'm writing this to set the record straight. I've been addressed twice in this comment section. Both times, the authors have mistakenly believed I've written something I did not. I happen to AGREE with Amy's blog and am quite CLEAR about agreeing. I believe your comments need to be directed to lady who wrote the second post. Thank you. (I've re-posted my comment below so you can re-read what I originally wrote.)
--->I am a woman, a survivor of domestic violence, and a child of an abuser. Having said that, it is my believe that the art of male bashing has reached an all time high. Especially in my age group. (25-30)
Not all men are abusers, but are treated as such. Not all men are sexual predators, but are treated as such. (You should see the looks from women that my husband gets whenever he takes our daughter to the store. One woman even went so far as to accuse him of abuse in the parking lot. No, he wasn't abusing our daughter- he was just putting her in her carseat. Thankfully, I was there and promptly told the woman to stfu.)
I know that for every male abuser, there is a male victim. And where are the resources for them? Where are the shelters? Where are the TPO's and the tax payer funded counseling centers?
It's time for everyone, male and female, to stand up and say enough of this bullshit! Domestic Violence is real and it hurts, but there will never be a solution until all perpetrators of DV are held equally accountable.
Thank you, Amy, for posting this blog. I'm sending the link out to every single DV activist I work with.
Truth at November 1, 2008 10:09 PM
Iconoclast - Lowlives are not uncommon among the female of the human species.
Neither are they uncommon among the male of the human species. And that is the whole point to what those of us at Glenn's site are upset about. The ads only show the men as perpetrators and women as victims of DV. Studies show that it is about 50/50. Men do have a higher likelihood to kill their partner, but women have a higher likelihood to kill their children.
Why not show a balanced advertising campaign that educates about all DV and supports the good men as well as women. There are crappy people. Just as there are good people. But vilifying one gender doesn't bring any kind of balance, or allow for any meaningful discussion of the subject.
It's no different than saying that someone who hates illegal immigration hates all immigrants and are racist. It's only being used to make the issue emotional and to keep intelligent discussion from happening.
Part of the problem with this particular group, is that they receive government funding. My understanding was, that if the government gave funding, it was illegal to discriminate based on race, GENDER, Sexual orientation, etc. And yet that is expressly what has occurred, with the full support of the Dallas City Council.
Equality - either everyone is equal, or the majority of people need to sit down and STFU (if you need an explanation on what this means, Amy will have to approve that). :)
wolfboy69 at November 2, 2008 8:16 PM
Well since some studies suggest that mothers are more likely to kill their children I wonder how an ad campign with a child saying, "My mommy will kill be before I become a grownup." or "When I become a mommy I'm going to kill my kids." would be recieved.
And I've also noticed that the only people attacking the people complaining about these two ads are feminists. Some people can't stand the fact that they have to be specific and generic scare tatctics aren't allowed...
Danny at November 3, 2008 12:21 PM
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