"Can't people change the way they spend? Make a plate of cookies instead of going further into debt?"

It certainly seems like it would make a lot of people happier. I imagine there is a small handful of people with plenty of money, who love shopping, and who truly enjoy going on all-out buying binges at Christmas. However that doesn't seem true of most people. Most people seem to stress about it too much - what to get, how to pay for it, and then we are stuck reading letters to advice columnists for months afterwards, by people who are pissed that they didn't get thank-you cards or whose relatives favored this grandchild over that - who needs it?

So why DON'T more people switch to cookies over waiting in line for hours? Are they trying to keep up with someone? Are they trying to give others the appearance that they are more well-off fiancially than they really are? Are they afraid to be the first one in the family to speak up?

I do the same thing you do, Amy - I get little presents for people when I *want* to, and when I see something I know someone would really enjoy. A lot of the time it's really simple, like a bag of whole bean coffee I think my mom would like, or something chocolate for my sweety. The time of year has nothing to do with it.

Maybe it makes sense that people go on these spending sprees to celebrate the *birth* of Christ, since that was the last chance they would have to act like materialistic assholes before he grew up and told them to behave like civilized human beings.

As a kid, my Dad was in the union and every 3 years they went on strike. So we had two good Xmas's, 1 lean. That taught us lessons about saving and not overspending, and about the truer meaning of Christmas. The neighborhood I live in now has lots of kids around 12-15, and damned if they didn't drop off a list last year of things they wanted. My wife ended up getting them things, and their parents bought my little boy things, and it was vulgar how extravegant it all became.

I prefer Thanksgiving.

"Can't people change the way they spend? Make a plate of cookies instead of going further into debt?"

No, not soon, and I know why. It's psychological. And there are two major parts to this.

First:
When you walk into any big store - Fry's, WalMart, Target - you are surrounded by "plenty". This feels good. You can have these things in your house. Possess them. It's so easy. Just swipe this bit of plastic and you can take that home, sir. You can pay for it later.

But debt doesn't equal ownership. It's a false trade. The credit company is dealing in "consumer futures" - the speculation that you'll pay the purchase price of any item plus the compunded interest on whatever you took home.

People who couldn't understand they can't really afford a house more than 10X their annual salary are losing their houses. People who possess something do not care that the bank owns everything in their house until payment is rendered, and they do not realize that if their household pays for debt services, that money is forever lost to the family.

Second:
The public has never bothered - can't be bothered - to define "own" and "possess", even though you can find entries for each in the dictionary. A distance is steadfastly maintained between definition and practice. They seem so fundamental, don't they? The reality is unpleasant, which is one of the reasons these things are avoided.

Examples:

1) You own your home - until you don't pay taxes. Then it is seized. Hmm.
2) A criminal may not possess a firearm. Gun laws and arguments about possession routinely cover purchases, but not possession, which can be attained through inheritance, gift, lending or windfall. Hmm, again.

I suggest that the average person does not think about why they do things, how they form opinions, etc., and so they are not going to change this behavior until they are forced.

Immediate gratification is even why car companies are in the toilet now. Gee, I can have this Escalade! I don't have to ride a 10-year-old Suburban. (Later: Hey! How come I can't afford to send my kid to college?)

"I suggest that the average person does not think about why they do things, how they form opinions, etc."

If you are right about this, then the majority of people are simply stupid. If you are wrong, then you have a condescending view of other people. I have no idea which is true.

As for me, "Black Friday" was sunny and 50 degrees here, so I went for a bike ride all afternoon.

What did the rest of you folks do? How did you spend the day after Thanksgiving? I hope it didn't involve trampling anyone.

If you are right about this, then the majority of people are simply stupid.

I wouldn't say that. I think it's only recently that humans have had access to enough security of food, shelter and lifespan to have the time and energy to consider *why* they do things. And I'm constantly amazed at the number of bright people I meet who are fiercely resistant to figuring out why they do things and why they view the world in a certain way. They tend to get very angry when you bring up the idea, either. Apologies if this sounds condescending - God knows I don't have all of the answers in life. But I do try to figure out *why* I'm doing things.

I spent the day after Thanksgiving with family members, old friends (one past 90 and as sharp as a tack), and the boyfriend. I think I bought a couple of things for my home off of Amazon (yay, online sales!), but they were things that I needed. (Okay, I wouldn't starve without them, but they weren't fun items.) I did think briefly about hitting up a local used bookstore that was having an early-morning sale (not at 5 am, though!), but decided against it. Wonderful day. No trampling involved. I would sooner have my fingernails pulled out one by one than hit up major malls or stores on Black Friday. This isn't some sign of virtue - I just don't like enormous crowds.

If you are right about this, then the majority of people are simply stupid. If you are wrong, then you have a condescending view of other people. I have no idea which is true.

Both statements are true. Sturgeon's Law implies the first (90% of everything is crud). Understanding that, and knowing that you aren't part of that 90% causes the other.

My friends and I hit a few stores after 11 AM, got in, got what we came for, got out. Why fight the seething throngs of sheep bleating out "MUST SHOP!" whilst flattening some poor dude that's just trying to earn a living.

With this latest incident illustrating the mob mentality, retailers should be on notice as to how to handle crowds on Black Friday. 15 minutes before a store opens, the store manager should go out the back entrance, walk around to the front entrance with a bullhorn, and announce the following:

1. Everyone line up single file. The store will not open until everyone is lined up single file.

2. Anyone who can't peaceably agree on his place in the line can go to the back of the line. Security, or in extreme cases, police can help with this if needed.

3. One party (people in the same family or group) will be admitted in a controlled fashion every ten seconds (or longer if that's what it takes to keep order).

4. Absolutely no running in the store. Anyone caught running will be escorted out of the store by security, and will go to the back of the line.

5. Whatever other rules are needed to keep order.

The idea is, if these "adults" can't do better than act like children, then they can be subject to the kinds of rules we impose on children to socialize them. If on the other hand, if they can act no better than animals, they should be caged up like animals. Their choice.

> it was vulgar how extravegant
> it all became.
>
> I prefer Thanksgiving.

Another grownup blogger was making the point this week, though I've forgotten who. After growing up and seeing what material wealth can and cannot do for a person's soul, many of us come to prefer Thanksgiving to Christmas, flipping the preferences of youth. (Being religious has nothing to do with it.)

The baby boomers still deserves some heat for Halloween, though. In a single generation, they changed it from something for kids to something for adults, and they do anything for other holidays to compensate.

"If you are right about this, then the majority of people are simply stupid. If you are wrong, then you have a condescending view of other people. I have no idea which is true."

The majority of people just don't think about what they mean when they say some things, and I can prove this to anyone.

You can, too. Just ask, "Why is a STOP sign so much brighter than everything else when your headlights hit it?" You'll get an answer - maybe - that says, "It's painted with a reflective material." Well, duh. So is everything else. They'll think the question has been answered. If you get an especially bright person, they can probably talk about spherical glass and the behavior of light - but that person will have blind spots about other things if they don't understand how to learn.

I can explain why this is, also. Who but a madman would care about the thirty different issues appearing every day on popular news programs, let alone ask for even more abuse by trying to find out why the newspeople presented things that way?

It doesn't mean they're stupid. It just means they haven't applied themselves to most problems, other than superficially. It takes great care to introduce new things to a person without offending them, because people generally don't like to admit they don't know something.

In my case, I can immediately displace my chagrin at not knowing with the glee of knowing something new. That's one of the reasons I appreciate Amy's scouring textbooks and seminars for useful information. That's a detective, not a gossip, and more people should be like that.

I was up and at Toys R Us before 5am, stood in line almost 2 hours to check out. Everyone was nice and polite. Some people taked about people being rude in the parking lot, and how if you don't know christmas better than that, you have no business buying presents.

I had no basket, and was pushing my pile along the floor. The woman in front of me shared her cart. I bought her a bottled water. I am not a huge consumerist, but my kids are no longer toddlers, and their toys need to reflect that. So i wanted to get them some things. Usually I get one gift form us and one from santa, per kid.

I spend as little as I can get away with, typically. I have 12 neices and nephews, so not buying for lots of people is not an option. We do things like movie gift certs, then DH takes them to the movie all together.

I am deeply saddened by the death of Jdimytai Damour. My most sincere condolences goes to the family.

I just can't find a viable explanation for this mess. We are living in a society of overabundance where every single object is cheaply produced by lots of tens (or hundred) of thousands. If we add the on-line capability to buy literally anything, this single death is unexplainable excepted for human stupidity.

Are we human or cattle?

Toubrouk -

Figuratively speaking, we're both. And in a rather silly, but immensely satisfying scifi short story, out of The Golden Age of Science Fiction volume II we're literally both in an alternate universe....