Every time I hear one of these "you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover" stories the opposite occurs to me. "Look how important how you look is. It'll make people ignore every other wonderful thing about you."

I often talk about this with a good friend of mine in Seattle. He's a single guy, divorced after a 10-year marriage.

He often complains that "most every woman I meet looks like she's ready to go out on a hike".

Keeping in mind that he works for one of the largest software companies in the world (I'll leave it to you to guess which one!) this takes "business casual" to an entirely different level!

On a recent trip to NYC he was pleasantly relieved to see some very different looking women all around.

You know what's great about not owning a TV? Moments like this. Couldn't participate if I wanted to. We went through a round of this a couple years ago.

American Idol is a spectacularly poor starting point for these discussions. It's not about talent... The tunes are pop scruff, the least demanding melodies the human ear can devise. Instrumentalists are not invited to participate. The whole point of a show like that is to be young and cute.

Not a problem! I like youth and cuteness! But people who like that kind of TV probably aren't equipped to take a wider view of taste and attraction... They've had a dinner of highly processed sugar.

And btw Amy...

> a .7 waist-to-hip ratio (hourglass
> figure)

If you live to be ten thousand years old, will you ever surrender your obsession with magical factoid?

As soon as I saw the waist-to-hip ratio thing, I knew Crid would be in here.

And Robert, what your friend says about the Seattle "dress code" is largely true, especially during the rainy season, and it applies across the board, to men as well, particularly on the campus of that software company (husband works there, I've seen it firsthand). He might have better luck in the summertime, once the sun actually comes out. People tend to dress a bit nicer when they're not worried about getting drenched.

>>but probably feminism's insistence that looks "shouldn't" matter has meant little girls and women aren't told what Boyle should have been: that looks are important, and that it's very important you do the best you can with whatever you have. Boyle, by the way, now looks much better, thanks to a bit of hairstyling and a mowing of the brows that looked like two black overgrown front lawns.

Isn't the fact that Boyle is developmentally disabled - since severe oxygen deprivation at birth, as she's explained - more likely to explain the unkempt hair and eyebrows than feminism's scruffy message?

I don't dispute that we all respond warmly to gorgeous people. Just that Boyle's indifference to feminine grooming has likely more complex causes.

>>Girls aren't told that it's important that they look attractive;

Maybe it's different in LA?

Amy,

:-)

Robert

This reminds me of one time in high school when I interned at John Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab and attended a Lunar and Planetary Science Conference. I went to a breakfast for women in science where they were discussing ways to help women in science. Most of the suggestions were along the lines of more childcare facilities, etc. I really wanted to raise my hand and say, "Maybe you should teach these women how to dress." I mean, most of the women looked HORRIBLE-the overall fashion aesthetic was a cross between "hippie" and "plumber" with colors that didn't match, clothes that were way too casual for a professional setting, unkempt hair, no makeup etc. In my opinion, that's just as inappropriate as wearing a belly shirt and hooker boots to work. If you want to be taken seriously in the workforce, you need to dress the part.

Feminists are certainly doing a women a discredit in the professional sense when they insist that appearance doesn't matter. Of course, the people that truly benefit from this philosophy are the women who see right through it and will thus be given raises, promotions, and credibility over the ones who dress like hobos. (This of course applies to dating as well!)

"Men evolved to seek the female face and body that indicate fertility, and yes, what we consider beautiful -- youth, clear skin, symmetrical features, a .7 waist-to-hip ratio (hourglass figure) -- are indicators a woman is fertile."

Youth yes, all else no. How does symmetry even add up to beauty much less to fertility? Who gets more flack for their looks - symmetrical Tori Spelling or skewy-eyed Shannon Doherty? Obviously its the former, Spelling's is as symmetrical as faces get but unfortunately it's also fugly.
The hip to waist ratio has been debunked, and can be done so again by anyone willing to go through a few girly mags. Some of these women have hourglass figures, some you can barely tell where the waist ends and the hips begin. Does anyone seriously think that Salma Hayek and Angelina Jolie have the same hip to waist ratio? Yet most men would do either if they could.
And then there are things like long eyelashes being pretty- how does this influence a woman's fertility? Pouty lips? Big cheekbones? Bright blue eyes? Large eyes as opposed to beady eyes? Red lips as opposed to pale lips?
Beauty has zip to do with fertility.

Girls aren't told that it's important that they look attractive

Then there's the other side of that coin, except, unlike a coin, I'm not sure where that is.

I attended an anniversary party at my daughter's elementary school.

It included the all-girls cheerleading squad dressed in pretty short shorts and shaking their booty during much of their routine.

At other times, I have seen at this school's talent show, 4th and 5th graders who attend dance classes dancing in what I thought were pretty sexualized routines and costumes.

I know a few parents were upset, but to be honest, no one seems to think twice about it, so I suspect it's me.

So I don't know where the side of that coin is.

It seems okay for 4-6 year olds to shake their booty in front of other 4-6 year olds and their parents.

And it seems okay for college women to dance as they choose and for who they choose.

But in between it seems weird.

While I am selfishly glad that women think that their looks are important, I am not sure that it should be a formal class or activity in elementary schools (cheerleading in an elementary schoool?)

(Then again a lot of women's fashion is totally lost on me. Shoes with toes so sharply pointed they would look more proper on Rosa Klebb Tattoos. Juicy signs on their ass. Beats me.)

Amy, I don't know how much popular culture you consume, but it seems to me that it would be impossible for most young women not living in a cabin in the Arctic to avoid the message that looks matter, or even that looks are ALL that matter. Read some of the tabloid or teen mags, or watch TV geared toward younger people (e.g. Gossip Girl); it's all about appearances (and conspicuous consumption).

It's fine to teach young women that looks matter, just not at the expense of everything else.

BTW, have you read Linda Grant's book "The Thoughtful Dresser?" You might enjoy it. She talks about the lipstick in the concentration camps (and how it was the one thing requested from the Allies who liberated the camps by the women, and it also profiles an Auschwitz survivor who went on to become the fashion maven of Toronto and Montreal).

I make sure my autistic daughter dresses in 'cool' styles, because at 12 or 13, standing out because you don't dress right is hurtfull. She gets extra coaching from her special ed teacher about body posture and small talk, but she will always look and act a little 'off'. And she has a math IQ of 130 and is the top of her science class.

Maybe she will be more like Temple Granidin than Vanna White-who contributes more to society? Can you learn to accept some of us with neurological differences?

Looks do matter to some people. One program at the cancer center where I worked had make-overs to help patients deal with hair loss and other effects of chemo. One patient wore these great vintage hats, a different one every week.

> I don't know how much popular
> culture you consume, but

Exactly, what were talking about is *pop* culture. There are other influences in people's lives. Well-loved girls aren't permitted to give all their attention to pop culture.

> We might not like that it's
> important, but the fact remains,
> it is.

You are just too eager to appear world-weary and resigned to these sad truths. The love of sweets is similarly universal; but it's expressed to differing degrees in every appetite. And it's often rewardingly tamed by discipline.

I agree with Amy on this one. I spend 30 minutes on my makeup every morning cuz I'm a Nars junkie. Women really really like my makeup cuz I've a professional hand at it. And when I dont wear it, they make it a point to tell me I look like crap. Anyways...

I've studied the craft as a hobby. So my biggest pet peeve is women who dont spend five minutes in front of the mirror. Ladies all you need to do is spend five minutes every morning. Put a little tinted moisturizer, a little powder, a dab of mascara and a dab of blush or bronzer. Honesty you can do this in 5 minutes and with inexpensive products.

And enough with the greasy hair yuck! And the sweat pants!

One reason why girls may be taught that looks don't matter is that the person doing the teaching might be trying to convey that they should be nice to other people, no matter how they look. Not necessarily that people won't judge YOU by your looks, but that you shouldn't judge OTHERS by theirs.

Well-loved girls aren't permitted to give all their attention to pop culture.

True, but having been a 14 year old girl once, what your friends and aspirational peers are doing always trumps what Mom & Dad have to say.

What's an aspirational peer? Always?

Are there two sets of looks? One for men, one for women? We have all heard the joke about the husband who doesn't notice his wife's new hair-do. That does not fit the idea that women's looks are important to men. Personally, I prefer women who look good *without* make-up. It looks artificial to me. Make-up's most effective when I don't think it's there. That's not to say that looks don't matter. In fact it says they are very important and I don't like to be deceived by make-up.

Could it be that these are examples where women are signalling to other women? I have not met a woman who was unaware of a friend's new hair-do, for example.

> We have all heard the joke about the
> husband who doesn't notice his
> wife's new hair-do.

Wives? Eh.... My mother changed her hairdo in 1963, when I was four, and I cried. What the FUCK??!?!?

I'm still kinda pissed.

'Girls aren't told that it's important that they look attractive'

'but it seems to me that it would be impossible for most young women not living in a cabin in the Arctic to avoid the message that looks matter,or even that looks are ALL that matter'

While some media give the impression that looks are all that matter, on the other hand you have a generation of mothers who, as Amy said, do not teach their daughters a great deal that they need to know. One seems to almost be in defiance of the other, the attitudes of many mothers is 'we see how beautiful those people are, but I know you're beautiful JUST THE WAY YOU ARE' as if making an effort to look nice was some elitist affectation, instead of a womanly art. My niece at 16 is 200 pounds of 'beautiful just the way you are darling'.

I'm late to this party, but someone several comments back asked how features such as full lips, long eyelashes, big eyes, etc. are associated with fertility. It's because lips tend to get thinner with age, eyelashes (and eyebrows) thin out, and eyelids tend to droop, making the eyes appear smaller. So, all of these seemingly unrelated features are indicators of youthfulness, which is an indicator of fertility.

We're all such a bunch of PC a-holes that we've forgotten that "discrimination" and "stereotype" are GOOD things, in the main.

It's a good thing to discriminate between the poisonous and non-toxic plant before you eat it. Not every bear is out to eat you -- but it is a GOOD thing to stereotype bears as dangerous if you venture into the woods much.

Finally, why do women wear make-up and perfume? Because they're ugly and they stink! (I'm JOKING people!!) (Sort of ...)

"Personally, I prefer women who look good *without* make-up. It looks artificial to me."

Why do guys love to say that? Do you not realize that women have figured out how to wear make-up without looking like they're wearing it? I can't remember which magazine it was, but I read an article once that mentioned that men almost always say they prefer no make-up, but when given a choice between two photos of the same woman with and without light makeup, they ALWAYS pick the made-up version. Just because it's not purple and sparkly doesn't mean it's not there.

I guess we should all stop using styling products and fixing our hair, too. And no more deodorant, or heels, or underwire bras. Wouldn't want to "mislead" you.

ahw - "Why do guys love to say that?" Why do you think? Could it be that it's what lots of guys actually think? Nah - it's obviously part of a male plot. Or something.

"women have figured out how to wear make-up without looking like they're wearing it" - why would they want to go to all that trouble? Can't be because men prefer it, surely?

Choosing between two photos of the same woman with and without light makeup - could it be that the makeup was so light it hardly showed? I find that make-up attracts attention, but turns me off smooching. (Coco the clown's make-up would also attract my attention, and I wouldn't smooch him either.)

Some women refuse to step outside their door without make-up. Why is that? Are they hoping to attract a mate while they pop out to post a letter? No - they are just so hooked on make-up that they'd as soon go out naked as un-made-up. Having no make-up is a sign of confidence - and that's attractive.

"I guess we should all stop using styling products and fixing our hair, too. And no more deodorant, or heels, or underwire bras. Wouldn't want to "mislead" you." - suits me. It would also be more practical for all sorts of activities.

Trying to analyse this ... I think make-up makes women hypersexual. Like enormous silicone boobs. Of course this gets men's attention, but it's just empty calories, if you get my drift.

I used to go for the fanciest-looking cake on the trolley. I have a sweet tooth and couldn't resist. Over the years I've learned that the most satisfying is not necessarily the fanciest-looking. But I still look at them.

Thanks ahw and Amy.

Norman,

Almost all of the guys I have dated have said they dont like makeup on a woman. Which is kinda funny since I'm a makeup junkie. So to answer your points:

"Could it be that it's what lots of guys actually think?"

I think Amy has talked about this point numerous times. You know how men tend to look at the big picture and overlook the small details? I dont think men notice that a woman is wearing makeup (unless it's plastered on), but instead notice the "big picture" not the details of makeup application.

When I wear makeup, women come up to me and tell me how much they love its application. Guys on the other hand just think it's my natural beauty.

So notice: women arent tricked by my makeup but men are.

And I've done informal surveys with the men my life. All of them have stated: "Oh you're wearing makeup, I didnt notice"

"could it be that the makeup was so light it hardly showed"

It's not that it's so light that it hardly showed. It's that it's applied so well (blended) it tricks the eye. You know how artists learn to play with shadows (light/dark) to give depth perception makeup artists learn the same things.

I just think about makeup like I think about waxing my legs. Sure I could go all natural...

> I think make-up makes
> women hypersexual.

Sometimes it just makes them looked sort of coddled, like they never go outdoors and walk in the wind. I think there's a sort of unconscious click-counter that gets tripped every time you see a woman's face. If that counter number gets too high without you seeing the real color of her eyelids or the real flow of her hair, she's going to strike you as sickly the first time you see her without cosmetics.

(And that perception will not be entirely incorrect)

Ppen - Interesting comments.

If a woman asked my opinion of her make-up, I'd put it in the same category as "does my bum look big in this" and say whatever was necessary to get out alive. Also, men not being familiar with the practicalities of make-up, they may very well not realise you are wearing any.

Waxing your legs - again, here's one guy doesn't care. Or about underarm hair. One of the hottest girls I dated even had a few wisps of black hair on her nipples. I was curious, so that was OK.

All that time you spend waxing & shaving, we could be having fun! (Image of couple going out for the evening; he waits at the door, she is still at the dressing-table.)

Crid - yes, seeing the person normally with make-up, suddenly without, is a shock. So, make-up is addictive. If you start to use it, you will find it hard to give it up.

Warning: sample size = 1.

Norman, sometimes part of the fun of going out is getting ready.

Husband is revolted by armpit hair (and excessive pubic hair, and mustaches on ladies.) I haven't confirmed it, but I'd assume that niskers would send him crawling backwards up the wall.

Shaving doesn't take that long. I do it every morning, just like brushing my teeth. I spend less than 10 minutes in the shower. The first 5 minutes, I'm just standing there, enjoying the hot water.

ahw - True enough. I just want to lay the idea that these conventions are in any sense absolutely necessary. They are just local custom.

My tastes are probably the way they are due to the feminist-type people I spent time with. Old-school feminists they were. I still largely agree with them. The word has changed its meaning, however.

Setting aside the feminist angle, I think that looks matter -- for everyone.

If you want people to think you are a professional, it would help if you looked professional.

If you want people to think of you in the boss's office, you need to look like a boss looks.

If you want people to think you are relevant, it may help if you dress like you're aware the 70s have ended.

Too many people insist on behaving as though the world works the way they'd like it to work instead of understanding how it actually works and adapting their own behaviour accordingly. Typically, these people then whine that the world's unfair and file discrimination suits instead....

I'm not disputing that looks matter, just that the current, local convention for what looks good is not a universal absolute. Amy will jump in with WHR, but make-up specifics is not something that is constant across cultures.

So true. There's a reason you spend more time on your appearance when you're doing something like a job interview or first date. It matters.

Having been an exceptionally ugly adolescent who turned into an attractive adult, I can say that I get treated much differently now, even by total strangers in random interactions, like getting in the same elevator or getting waited on in a store. People are more likely to make eye contact, smile, and try to engage me in conversation than they did when I was younger.

I do think it's very stupid for people to make assumptions about your wealth or behavior based on how you're dressed-I worked as a salesperson for several years and did better than many of my colleagues because I never, ever assumed that the schlubby guy in the sweatpants or the girl in Harley leathers didn't have money or wouldn't spend it. Given that everyone seems to be trying to outdo each other in terms of slovenliness, it's not easy to use clothes as a social cue anymore.

"Having been an exceptionally ugly adolescent who turned into an attractive adult, I can say that I get treated much differently now, even by total strangers in random interactions, like getting in the same elevator or getting waited on in a store. People are more likely to make eye contact, smile, and try to engage me in conversation than they did when I was younger."

It's an amazing thing to experience isn't it? I've never gotten used to it, or failed to enjoy it. And I still remember (in spite of my best attempts not to) what it's like to be avoided and shunned. So I'm still nice to the ugly and socially inept people. It gives me away, to those who have never experienced it, every time. You can always tell a former dork. You got a problem widdat?

And hamsa, your experience as a salesperson makes me think you met some very fun and interesting people, no?

Norman-you're definitely right that women also dress to signal other women. Amy's right about the waist-to-hip ratio, shiny hair, big eyes, full lips, etc: all indicators of health, youth, and fertility. On the other hand, I doubt most men care whether a woman is wearing the latest trend or the hottest designer label. That's all about impressing other women. And it definitely varies from culture to culture-just look at what looks are considered "hot" now versus in the 1980s, or 1950s, or 1920s.

On the makeup thing: here's an example of Eva Longoria with makeup versus no makeup:

http://www.dollmyface.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/eva-longoria-with-without-makeup.jpg

Obviously she's still an attractive woman without makeup, but the makeup really enhances her beauty. All the makeup in the world isn't going to turn a Susan Boyle into a Jessica Alba, but it is a good tool to emphasize your natural assets and compensate for any deficiencies (for example, I wear mascara because otherwise my eyelashes would be blonde!)

"just that the current, local convention for what looks good is not a universal absolute"

Um, yeah, let me know when 17-26 year old females are not considered good-looking relative to 55-65 year old females.

The Eva Longoria comparison really shows what makeup can do for a girl! Going to look for more of those (stars with/without makeup). Show you boys a thing or two about "the natural look."

Amy my fav. is Charlize Theron

Gotta link? One per comment or my spam filter will bite you!

I think this is the most famous one:

http://humor.beecy.net/misc/celebs/CharlizeTheron.jpg

> Show you boys a thing or two
> about "the natural look."

One unflattering photo doesn't diminish a stunning beauty!

Know this: Eva Longoria's mouth is America's finest orifice. It almost always seems to be preparing to do something nice, or at least to say something nice to someone. I don't think any other ingenue-type actress has a better understanding of how lips & teeth can move to please the eye.

(Theron's in the top twenty, but much lower on the list... She doesn't do warmth.)

There's a high school photo of her before the nose job. I think Longoria is one of a very small number of people whose attractiveness wasn't diminished by plastic surgery... But that doesn't mean it was helped by it! Her magic is in the smile and the eyes anyway; rhinoplasty is superfluous.

Here's the least flattering photo I've ever seen of her. Note her brow, furrowed in a laughably unconvincing attempt to glower. Our view drops instantly to that lowered lip, where we see she's in a great mood anyway. I'm pretty sure that about seven seconds after the shutter closed, she smiled at an old guy in a wheelchair... After which, he stood up and walked away. The woman is that pretty.

(Mmmmm? Obsessed? No... Why do you ask? I've never actually consumed any of her entertainment products, but I've cut some video of interviews with her and things like that.)

but I've cut some video of interviews with her and things like that/i>

One gets the sense you saved a few souvenirs.

So, why do women signal their sexual status to other women? Females (not just human) don't usually compete for males to the same extent or in the same way as vice versa. What's going on?

C'mon gals, 'fess up!

More fond memories than came from directing the evening news in the Ozarks, if that's what you mean. Hollywood's good that way!

Females (not just human) don't usually compete for males to the same extent or in the same way as vice versa. What's going on?

You've clearly never been a teenage girl. That shit's cutthroat!

I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has something to do with letting other women know that you intend to be competition. Might scare off some of the more timid ones.