Why Kids In L.A. Aren't Learning
Perhaps, in part, because principals in Los Angeles find it almost impossible to fire a teacher -- except maybe, maybe, for some wildly egregious repeat offense. Jason Song writes for the LA Times:
* Building a case for dismissal is so time-consuming, costly and draining for principals and administrators that many say they don't make the effort except in the most egregious cases. The vast majority of firings stem from blatant misconduct, including sexual abuse, other immoral or illegal behavior, insubordination or repeated violation of rules such as showing up on time.* Although districts generally press ahead with only the strongest cases, even these get knocked down more than a third of the time by the specially convened review panels, which have the discretion to restore teachers' jobs even when grounds for dismissal are proved.
* Jettisoning a teacher solely because he or she can't teach is rare. In 80% of the dismissals that were upheld, classroom performance was not even a factor.
When teaching is at issue, years of effort -- and thousands of dollars -- sometimes go into rehabilitating the teacher as students suffer. Over the three years before he was fired, one struggling math teacher in Stockton was observed 13 times by school officials, failed three year-end evaluations, was offered a more desirable assignment and joined a mentoring program as most of his ninth-grade students flunked his courses.
As a case winds its way through the system, legal costs can soar into the six figures.
Meanwhile, said Kendra Wallace, principal of Daniel Webster Middle School on Los Angeles' Westside, an ineffective teacher can instruct 125 to 260 students a year -- up to 1,300 in the five years she says it often takes to remove a tenured employee.
..."It's really disheartening," said Dr. Mitchell Wong, president of Act4Education, a group of parents trying to improve school performance in West Los Angeles. "What message does it send to the students, to the community and to the teachers who are doing their job?"
Kathleen Collins, associate general counsel for L.A. Unified, explained it this way: "Kids don't have a union."
Most of the reason kids don't learn today is because parents shove everything off on the schools.
The parents use the schools as babysitters and often take their kids side when there is a problem at school.
You wouldn't believe what it takes to suspend a kid these days.
In the old days when I went to school the teachers could call the parents and the parents would straighten the situation out.
The parents and teachers were on the same page. Now in the majority of disciplinary situations, the parents side with their kids.
Teachers have better things to do than make up things about kids and call there parents.
Parents don't want to deal with their kids so they shove the responsibility on the school. The other problem is the teachers union.
David M. at May 4, 2009 6:34 AM
Now in the majority of disciplinary situations, the parents side with their kids.
And sometimes with good reason:
At what point do you support the teachers, staff, and administration. Especially when a real thought never crosses their mind.
Jim P. at May 4, 2009 8:19 AM
This drives my Mom [teacher in Phoenix] freakin' crazy. They have a hard enough time attracting teachers, but then they can't get rid of a bad one. The good ones leave to find better schools, and the bad ones run it into the ground...
And I have no clue on the better way, other than making teaching a well respected field attracting top talent with pay, like engineering, and then get rid of poor performers.
But nobody will pay for that. I have friends with masters degrees who make 25% less than they would in the private sector, because they feel called to teach. They often burn out after 5 years and go get regular jobs. They can't deal with balloning classroom sizes to 35 students, or all the extra hours that nobody thinks they put in. Or the career teachers who are worthless, and a drag on the system...
SwissArmyD at May 4, 2009 10:35 AM
..."It's really disheartening," said Dr. Mitchell Wong, president of Act4Education, a group of parents trying to improve school performance in West Los Angeles. "What message does it send to the students, to the community and to the teachers who are doing their job?"
Well, the message *I* get is "become a teacher, because no matter how badly you suck at it, once you're in, you're set for life".
Lauren at May 4, 2009 12:27 PM
And I have no clue on the better way...
Lets start by getting rid of the unions, and government involvement. Bring education back to a local level. We need to bring back some form of discipline as well. When kids know they can do whatever they want, with little to no consequences....
Jim P's examples are right on. No common sense on the part of administration, due to fear of litigation by parents that are too lazy to be parents, instead of best friends, to thier kids.
It's such a messed up system at this point, only scrapping it and starting over is going to work. And that isn't going to happen any time soon.
wolfboy69 at May 4, 2009 12:46 PM
w in the majority of disciplinary situations, the parents side with their kids.
And sometimes with good reason:
Suspensions for a deadly weapon on a 6 yr old -- He's carrying a plastic knife to cut play-doh.
Suspending a 12 yr old for drug distribution: She shared her asthma inhaler with a friend who was having and asthma attack.
Strip-searched for the dangerous drug -- Midol.
Arrested for child pronograpy: Sent a picture in a bikini to her boyfriend.
The teacher is fired for having 2 Xanax in her car w/o a prescription bottle.
The teacher can't do the math she is teaching her students.
......
At what point do you support the teachers, staff, and administration. Especially when a real thought never crosses their mind.
--------
Jim P. Way to cite the extreme exceptions. I'm talking about the general everyday discipline issues that have been there since people started going to school.
David M. at May 4, 2009 1:35 PM
Lets go for a not so extreme example of how a school can cause an adversarial attitude with parents:
Top school district in the area, a third grade student that does fairly well.
My nephew forgot a book (or project, whatever) he needed for his class that day. My sister realized it was still at home after he had already arrived at school. She shows up with it at the school --
Sis: "I'll take it to his class."
Staff: "You haven't been cleared to go beyond the front desk."
Sis: "Can you call him down for me to give it to him?"
Staff: "No"
Sis: "Can you get it to him."
Staff: "Leave it here and we'll see what we can do."
They finally take it to the class room at about 2:45, well after he needed it. My nephew took a hit for not having the work.
All in all, they treated her like she was an intruder, the kid was a prisoner, and that helping the educational process was a bother.
After treatment like that, where would you be on the adversarial scale?
Jim P. at May 4, 2009 1:53 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/04/why_kids_in_los.html#comment-1646351">comment from Jim P.In response to Jim's story about the bureaucracy and the forgotten book, as some of you know, I started this program where I go talk to kids in an inner-city school. This teacher I know, just a lovely person, schedules me into classes. This takes some work for her, and she already has a full class load, plus writing she does on the side, so when I went to speak at career day, I asked the career day lady if she'd take over scheduling me in. She told me she'd have to propose the program, which would take, I think, six months to a year, and approving it would take, I think she said, another six months to a year.
Oh. Never mind. I just call the teacher and ask her to schedule me in. The kids seem to get a lot out of it, so I guess I'm not damaging their young minds!
Amy Alkon at May 4, 2009 6:17 PM
I actually go to schools as part of my job some in the inner city.
What I'm talking about is the general lack of respect that many students show their teachers.
They many times ignore the teachers when told to be quiet, follow directions, etc.
Teachers can't discipline these students because the students parents will come in and throw a fit.
The teachers are not backed up by the school administrators. the administrators tell the teachers, "do the best you can."
David M. at May 5, 2009 7:54 AM
My little brothers science teacher sent home list of class room rules.
Rule #1 Do not talk to other students durring class
Rule #2 Do not interupt teacher durring lesson
Rule #3 If you have a question about the lesson ask another student before you ask the teacher
So here we have a supposedly college educated person on the job for 10 yrs or so, and the fact that his 3rd rule will always cause violations of his first ow rules never crosses his mind.
Or his math teacher. Shes a piece of work. My brother was on some medication, a side effect of which was diarrhea, it stoped the lower intestine from soaking up enough water.
My mother had sent a note to the princable and all his teachers. SO durring ath class he had to go use the rest room, the teacher said no, so he held it, a few minutes later he raised his hand and the teacher told him not to interupt her again "Or else" At which point he got up and left, used the restroom and returned.
When he got back the teacher told him to sit outside until class was over "since you arent intrested in learning anyway"
While sitting outside a teacher with a free period wandered by and asked him why he didnt have a hall pass, stopped him from explianing and took him down to sit outside the princibl's office.
Now the princible called my mother and told her my brother was being suspended and she needed to come pick him up.
He was charged with
1- Interupting a teacher(raising his hand)
2- Disrupting a class(leaving for the restroom)
3- Disrupting a class#2(returing from restroom)
4- Ignoring a teachers istruction(leavving he spot by the classroom door)
5- Skipping afternoon classes(while sitting in the princibles office)
Once my mother got there and was tols the situation she said something along the lines of
"So my son, suffering side effects from medication that the teacher knew he was taking asked permision to got to the restroom, ran at the last secod to avoid crapping his pants, returned to class right away only to be thorwn out and hauled down here for the rest of the day. And you want to suspend him for running to the toilet to avoid shitting himself and obeying every school offical both before before and after his medication induced emergency?"'
and the princable said yes
TO which my mother responded "so let me get this right, you'd rather my son shit his pants in the middle of class because his teacher wouldnt let him use the restroom?"
and the princable said no
and the teacher piped up and said she hadnt read the note my brother gave her because she didnt have time (what she did with the three whole days between getting the note on monday and my brother racing for the toilet on wensday she never said)
At which point the princible said 'well ther is till the matter of him missing afternon classes and not having a hall pass'
At which point my brother says my mother began calling the pricncable a "FUCKING MORON" for ten solid minutes
And my brother goes to a 'good school' according to AZ Dept of Education.
So I cant say I'm all that suprised that parent take their kids side.
If it werent for my mother my brother would have been supended for a week for missing classes wiel sitting in the office and disrupting a class twice by raising his had and returning from the restroom
lujlp at May 5, 2009 12:07 PM
So, Lujlp, some possible lessons your little brother could have gathered from this adventure in bureaucratic mindlessness:
a. You're breaking some rule no matter what you do, so expect to be punished. That's the negative lesson.
b. You're going to make someone mad no matter what you do, so you might as well do what you think is right, and damn what other people think. This might be a more positive takeaway.
c. Some people are born idiots. Others require years of training. In the end, it doesn't really matter all that much, though, so revert to lesson b.
old rpm daddy at May 5, 2009 1:44 PM
But nobody will pay for that. I have friends with masters degrees who make 25% less than they would in the private sector, because they feel called to teach.
Private schools on vouchers would. A quick Google turned up a national average of $9,698 per year per student in spending. With a class size of 20, that's $193,960 per class per year. I'm guessing that figure should allow $80,000 - $100,000 per year in teacher salary/benefits.
In public schools you see class sizes around 30, yet teacher pay is low compared to other professional fields. Too much money goes to administration, fads and pet projects.
Jim P. Way to cite the extreme exceptions.
True, but extremes are a valid measure. Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
Shawn at May 5, 2009 10:52 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/04/why_kids_in_los.html#comment-1646579">comment from Shawnteacher pay is low compared to other professional fields.
The teacher who schedules me in to talk at a school here has talked to me about that, and reminded me that a year of teacher pay is for nine months of work.
Amy Alkon at May 6, 2009 2:08 AM
In public schools you see class sizes around 30, yet teacher pay is low compared to other professional fields.
Usually the teacher's pay is at or above the median income for the area. In addition their is a tax credit for expenses, plus credits for required CEU, and other expenses.
And as Amy pointed out, most are only working nine months.
Jim P. at May 6, 2009 8:54 AM
What is this, amateur hour? LA is hard on teachers compared to NYC. The following link leads you to what may look like a cartoon, but I assure you, it is 100% factual.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/36802.html
IanTheTerrible at May 7, 2009 12:35 PM
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