Do You "Support Your Own" When Shopping?
By that, I mean, if you're, say, white, do you try to only patronize white-owned businesses, or would that seem...say, stupid and racist to you? One dry cleaner I patronize is Chinese-owned and operated, and the other is owned and operated by Latinos. Should I change to the dry cleaner on the other boulevard where the owner is a white guy? Or should I do what I'm doing, go where they're friendly, affordable, and do a good job on my clothes?
A bunch of black people are in a movement called the "Empowerment Experiment" to patronize black-owned businesses only. Errin Haines writes for the AP:
Maggie and John Anderson of Chicago vowed four months ago that for one year, they would try to patronize only black-owned businesses. The "Empowerment Experiment" is the reason John had to suffer for hours with a stomach ache and Maggie no longer gets that brand-name lather when she washes her hair. A grocery trip is a 14-mile odyssey."We kind of enjoy the sacrifice because we get to make the point ... but I am going without stuff and I am frustrated on a daily basis," Maggie Anderson said. "It's like, my people have been here 400 years and we don't even have a Walgreens to show for it."
Oh, please. A friend of mine is a black fashion designer who started with nothing and built her business herself, selling clothes out of the back of her station wagon after she couldn't afford the living expenses in New York City and had to turn down a scholarship to F.I.T. It isn't skin color that makes the difference, it's enterpreneurial spirit and a burning desire to make it; enough so that you're not afraid to fail and pick yourself up and start again when and if you do.
Disagree with you on this one. First, the "Empowerment Experiment" is not a new one. Voluntarily feeding money into one's own community is a laudable goal - and perfectly consistent with free market principles. If you decide that your community is the people who live near you, you're helping small business owners. If you decide your community consists of people who look like you, good for you. Either way, I see nothing wrong with voting with your wallet.
snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 10:18 AM
Your fashion designer friend sounds like a bad ass. I like it.
It's long past time. We need to confront racism from black people. It's common, overt, and accepted. White people are often afraid to speak about it for fear of being labeled a racist.
Here in Dallas, I filed some papers at City Hall. The black city employees were skipping black applicants ahead of everyone else. When I complained, they laughed at me.
Over a three hour period in traffic court, I've seen a black J.P. summarily dismiss every traffic ticket issued to a black person, and pronounce every white person guilty.
Many black people I know say that Blacks can't be racist because Blacks don't have social power. But that judge had social power over those white people. But those city employees had social power over white people.
The claim that Blacks can't be racist is a form of the fallacy of decomposition. Blacks in the aggregate have less social power than whites. That doesn't imply that every individual black person will have less social power than every individual white person. Duh.
It's the same stupid shit. Lots of people can't reason with and about generalizations. And it has real, bad effects on policy and society.
Also, I think affirmative action and like policies have legitimized double standards. Skipping black people ahead in line? We skip them ahead in college admissions. The thinking is the same: many people believe that black people deserve special treatment.
Jeff at May 13, 2009 10:21 AM
Not only is the fact that blacks can't be bigots horse shit, some idiot invented on of the dumbest terms currently in PC us today. "Reverse Racism". A stupid and vaguly defined term, being either hatred of whites by minorities, or special treatment of minorities by the white controlled establishment. Neither I my definitions of the word.
As far as buying from your own. I'd love to see some white guy (not a women as they are also oppressed) go into Sears (which is now commissioned sales BTW) and demanding a white person serve them. NAACP will shit it's pants and yet if black person does the same thing no one says shit. Just like when a land scape company refused to work for a gay couple and the whole world shit itself.
vlad at May 13, 2009 10:51 AM
As far as your successful fashion designer friend, she has probably been labeled a cracker lover or a sell out for being successful. Though I'm sure that coming from those types of people she'd see it as a compliment.
vlad at May 13, 2009 10:53 AM
I try to patronize locally owned/ neighborhood businesses, but as for trying only to go to businesses owned by members of my own race? Um, no. Of course, being white, it wouldn't really be hard, unless I was looking for a cheap nail salon or a non-chain dry cleaner.
Jeff, it's been my observation that the black leadership in Dallas is incredibly fucked up and corrupt. How often has Terri Hodge (state rep) been investigated for bribery, etc? But, she gets elected again and again, because she does anything she can to to "benefit the black community." Part of my job is to watch the House (and Senate) while they're in session (they are about to go back in at one), and you should see the way that woman can make a race issue out of anything. It's bad for my blood pressure.
ahw at May 13, 2009 10:58 AM
I suppose you could say I practice "negative empowerment." When I see proof that a local business treats its employees badly- and there have been some ugly examples around here- I stop patronizing it.
Lynne at May 13, 2009 11:00 AM
"Many black people I know say that Blacks can't be racist because Blacks don't have social power. But that judge had social power over those white people. But those city employees had social power over white people."
Not to mention that the president of the most powerful nation in the world is now black ;) No "social power" my ass.
Mouse at May 13, 2009 11:03 AM
snakeman99 driving 14 miles to the grocery store when there is one around the corner is NOT feeding your community.
People can say what they want with their money, but how do you tell your freind and neighbor "Sure you and I are freinds, I just dont think you're good enough to live or work near me or my familly, and I think so little of you, even though I like you, that I will shop at a store that gives my husband digestive problems and doesnt carry the products I want. Whats really important isnt our relationship, or the fact that you sell me what I want, the real issue is the color of your skin"
lujlp at May 13, 2009 11:04 AM
Yes, I “Support My Own” when shopping. That’s why I’ve been on a Wal-Mart boycott for the last few years. I try to buy American made products and patronize local vendors and merchants.
It may cost more but I use a local family owned butcher shop. The last book I bought at retail price, American Lion, was written by a local author. Miller Lite is union made so that’s what I buy.
My gut feeling is that if we supported our own we wouldn’t be in the economic mess that we’re in today. Who’s going to buy your stuff if they don’t have a job?
Roger at May 13, 2009 11:08 AM
I agree with snakeman that there's really nothing wrong with it. Blacks do not yet own as many businesses as whites, so it's really no different than the BPW, which encourages networking of women in business. It's just a way to help your own kind if they happen to be in the minority.
I wouldn't keep frequenting a merchant for that reason alone if I received poor service, but all things being equal, I try to shop local rather than the big chain stores, and use the businesses of my friends rather than those of strangers. I see nothing wrong with trying to help businesses you want to succeed.
The gay community, for instance, networks and supports their own. There's gay travel groups that frequent gay-friendly destinations and gay-owned hotels.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 11:22 AM
>> It's been two months since 2-year-old Cori pulled the gold stud from her left earlobe, and the piercing is threatening to close as her mother, Maggie Anderson, hunts for a replacement.
That sentence pretty much set the tone for my opinion of these people.
Eric at May 13, 2009 11:24 AM
I patronize local stores and couldn't care less what color the owner is, or gender.
vlad at May 13, 2009 11:33 AM
vlad, you know what I mean. I doubt blacks own 12% of businesses either.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 11:37 AM
"snakeman99 driving 14 miles to the grocery store when there is one around the corner is NOT feeding your community."
Depends on how you define your community.
Jeff, all those Dallas examples are inapposite. The article is about targetting black-owned business with black patronage. Racism among rank-and-file bureaucrats is nasty, but ultimately not what we're talking about here.
snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 11:49 AM
It's like, my people have been here 400 years and we don't even have a Walgreens to show for it.
And that's because: "When we were a community of black folks who could not go to the white stores, our community of black stores flourished," [Brenda] Brown said. "When we were given the opportunity to go into the white store, it was like nothing else mattered anymore and we wanted to go to the white store, regardless of what the black store provided."
And...
He lives in a black neighborhood in southwest Atlanta, where he tries to dine at black restaurants.
Why not just go to a good restaurant?
Does this mean Thai or Chinese or Mexican food is out - unless the restaurant is owned by a black person?
The idea is a sound one, given that black Americans are still underrepresented in the ranks of the self-employed and that entrepreneurship is a key component to wealth.
On the plus side, perhaps this will help spark a honest dialogue as to why blacks are so underrepresented in the entrepreneurial ranks.
Or spur more blacks to start their own businesses.
I doubt blacks own 12% of businesses either.
They're old now, but the last numbers I saw reported indicated blacks make up 12% of population but control less than 1% of wealth.
Conan the Grammarian at May 13, 2009 11:54 AM
where do these people live? On Chicago's south side seems like you could find something...
SwissArmyD at May 13, 2009 11:57 AM
I wouldn't feel comfortable telling a gay person that they shouldn't frequent gay-owned establishments - that they MUST go to straight-owned businesses so as not to be "biased". Nor would I feel comfortable telling a woman that she shouldn't have a female gynecologist.
People are free to support business owners they may have more in common with, and sometimes that is due to race, gender, or other common factors.
I have friends who go out of their way to only support "green" businesses. They'll drive many more miles because a business buys organic or donates to environmental causes. They're environmentalists and they want to support businesses who are like them.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 12:04 PM
It is perfectly fine, in a free society, that you frequent whatever businesses you like, for whatever reasons.
What is not fine is hypocrisy accompanying the exercise of freedom. It is not fine not to call it like it is:
-- Choose on the basis of gender, and you are SEXIST, no matter what sex you are. If sexism is bad, then it is always bad. If you think differently, you are a hypocrite.
-- Choose on the basis of race, and you are RACIST, no matter what race you are. If racism is bad, then it is always bad. If you think differently, you are a hypocrite.
An obvious hypocrisy? Women, the majority of the population, the electorate, and the owners of wealth, who have always exercised social control indirectly, and who now do so directly as well, have the power to declare themselves a "powerless minority" in order to gain the social largess accompanying that categorization. The black community should be (and I believe largely is) outraged by feminists' attempt at comparison. (Mantra: "Not all feminists are female, not all females are feminist." Repeat until it sinks in.)
The endless collective feminine manipulation of men in "power" continues. Destroy the "Patriarchy" that serves women so slavishly? Women will never allow that to happen -- they will continue, as they always have, to shape it to fit their current needs and circumstances. Women, even more than men, benefit from maintaining the "Patriarchy" that provides for and protects them so well.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, either. I'm just saying that we should be honest about it, if we want to promote clear thinking and accurate evaluation.
Jay R at May 13, 2009 12:09 PM
"Community" implies some social group with exchange of some kind. We hear all the time of "the black community" or "the muslim community." There's no "white community" or "male community" that I'm aware of, so I don't believe these are communities at all.
The C word gets used when somebody wants to talk about muslims or blacks or whatever, without making whatever they are saying sound racist (whether it actually is racist or not) or prejudiced. It's just another case of political correctness.
But such is the power of language that enough people start using a term, we start behaving as if it actually refers to something. maybe some day it will.
Gotta go, it's my Male Community AGM tonight.
Norman at May 13, 2009 12:11 PM
"We kind of enjoy the sacrifice because we get to make the point ... that we'll go to any lengths to be disgusting bigots."
Oh, I made up that last part.
brobin at May 13, 2009 12:27 PM
Lovelysoul says:
"I have friends who go out of their way to only support "green" businesses. They'll drive many more miles because a business buys organic or donates to environmental causes."
Is this some kind of joke? Environmentalists tacking on the miles for the sake of environmentalism?
brobin at May 13, 2009 12:32 PM
If you artificially "prop up" a store that sells products inferior enough that you wouldn't ordinarily buy them, you're ultimately not helping the cause of "black business" - rewarding inferiority and keeping poor quality stores/products on life support only serves to reinforce market conceptions that black producers and sellers are offering lower quality and worse value. Rewarding strictly only *superior* black businesses would have a much more positive effect for the "cause" of black business, as a black-owned business that is superior to its white-owned counterpart will ultimately supplant the latter. It will stand on its own two feet. This would also provide better role models for young blacks ... i.e. to win by being *better*, rather than to just win charity out of pity. Being genuinely better would also help uproot market conceptions of black business inferiority.
David at May 13, 2009 12:34 PM
Put another way, when you get tough and start sending the message to businesses (regardless of owner's race) that bad businesses *should* die, by defining a clear, minimum acceptable 'standards bar', can black business start to succeed.
I've found there are some interesting parallels between black people who complain about white businesses dominating (as if it's "unfair") and white people who complain about Jewish businesses dominating (as if it's "unfair"). If you just weren't as good, don't whine, work harder at being better, or market your strengths.
Unfortunately for the lazy, truly free markets reward only the most hard-working and dedicated (and 'smart' helps too).
David at May 13, 2009 12:39 PM
Yes, Dave, but you need cash flow to buy the best quality products and therefore do the best job. If you don't have enough customers, you don't always have the ability to provide the best service. It's kind of a catch 22, which this sort of patronage is obviously hoping to address - especially for black businesses that are likely not in the best neighborhoods, and tend to have the poorest customers. They need to have a higher volume to be able to afford the higher quality products and pay better-qualified staff.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 12:46 PM
Um, can we acknowledge that most blacks are quite aware that the dominant white economic forces have been loyally, exclusively patronizing each other for generations? (And with such ferocity that the practice doesn't even have a name other than "racism"?) Is there anything new about this? Anything?
Fifteen years ago I read about some system used by one group of Asian immigrants... I'm pretty sure it was Koreans, but it might have been Cambodians. As they walked off the boats and into the social net, they'd be expected to peel off some money to drop into a special fund (this is on top of whatever other social investments and obligations the culture required). When the pot got to a certain size they'd draw lots, and the winner would get the money to do whatever he wanted for his business. If he wanted to buy some new equipment, or get a new truck for his shop, he could do whatever he wanted. Then they'd open a new fund. Carefully selecting one's associates and vendors is not some new American brand of communism.
This is essentially how our economy has always worked. People can spend (or save) their money however they want, and people here aren't stupid.
We have two special advantages that need to be considered before getting upset about what's described here.
First, and most importantly, you can always switch when you find a better deal. Maybe you're a Pakistani immigrant who hates Mexicans, and never buy anything from them, and your other Paki friends admire you for it. But our markets are always churning; and one day, a Mexican is going to offer you a great price for something you want, and you're going to wonder what the point of hating Mexicans is anyway... Besides, his daughter Maria –behind the desk in the showroom– is kinda cute. (Great rack on that kid.)
Second, American culture is all about being able to quickly forge productive relationships in almost every sphere: Finances, fast food, jazz etc. (And of course, sex.) We're fonder of building teams for the next project than we are of sentimental fidelity to the last partners. We can whip together an enforceable contract before most cultures have even made eye contact.
(This was a big theme in scary articles about Japanese culture in the 70's & 80's, when they were kicking our ass in cars and electronics. Our traveling businessmen would complain that it took ten lunches of bonding over weird food and sake before they'd give you a contract for a single shipment of widgets... And we'd wonder how the could move with such unity. Whelp, they've been in a recession for two decades. As I understand it, Japanese bankers aren't allowed to liquidate bad debt, because so much of the economy is essentially mafiosi; Can't do that to a business partner! Obama would be wise to take note of this.)
(And for the record, I doubt Obama is wise.)
Okay, maybe those two points are the same thing. I do that a lot when I write. The real point is this.... Defeating these 'empowerment experiments' is easy! All you have to do is show more love than they're getting from their 'community'...
Give them a better price.
No biggie, it's the American way.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at May 13, 2009 12:51 PM
If you artificially "prop up" a store that sells products inferior enough that you wouldn't ordinarily buy them, you're ultimately not helping the cause of "black business" - rewarding inferiority and keeping poor quality stores/products on life support only serves to reinforce market conceptions that black producers and sellers are offering lower quality and worse value.
Excellent point.
And you save until you have cash flow or find ways to get it.
I'm one of those people who doesn't give up. I have to remind Gregg sometimes not to tell me when something is futile -- or would be for a normal person. When somebody tells me no, I don't just nod my head; I go back to the drawing board to figure out how to turn no into yes. I did it with my column, syndicating it myself when syndicators said I'd never get into papers.
As I tell the inner-city kids I speak to, don't ask what's possible; figure out what you want (within reason -- I'll never play for The Knicks) and then figure out how to make it happen. And making things happen is a step-by-step process.
My friend the fashion designer had a workshop at her house for entrepreneurs and worked (and works) so, so hard to educate herself on business and how to make progress as a person. She makes progress because she invests in herself, expects to fail from time to time, and dusts herself off and keeps at it. I have tremendous respect for her.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 12:59 PM
I have no problem with this.
If you think about pretty much every immigrant group in this country, they all started up by trading amongst themselves. And that is how they created the middle and upper classes in their group. The Irish did it, the Italians did it, the Germans did it. Where I am, the Hmong and the Hispanics are doing that. The ones who assimilate best tend to get richer off their peers AT THE OUTSET. Then, they make money off of other groups. When I go to eat Indian food, I expect that there will be Indians, maybe Pakistanis, running the place. That is how immigrant groups assimilate.
The exception: most black people. Most came as slaves; most were pitted against each other on the plantation. While many of them were thrown into ghettoes (like most immigrant groups), they never went through the same assimilation process that most groups have. I have little doubt that that experience screwed up the process for them in ways that it did not for other groups. Where I am, we have a lot of Somalis too; they frequently trade amongst themselves; the successful ones are the ones who learn to make money from outside groups, as well. But, there is a lot of antagonism between them and, for lack of a better term, "regular" (i.e. non-immigrant) black people.
So, no, it happens all the time; it is natural; it may be "racist," but I do not think it is a bad thing. In fact, it is probably socially beneficial for each group to go through that evolution.
BTW, regarding the actions of public officials, mentioned above, that is a completely different matter.
JutGory at May 13, 2009 1:11 PM
I think it promotes victim-think and separatism.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 1:25 PM
> But such is the power of
> language that enough people
> start using a term, we start
> behaving as if it actually
> refers to something
I think this is spot-on, and it's done tremendous damage to every sector of society where the rhetoric of "community" has been so deperately applied.... Blacks, gays, inner cities, women, the mentally retarded, all of 'em.
A black woman and I were talking about some showbiz scandal last autumn, I forget who or what, but some black guy who'd been offered as a pillar of civic rectitude had done something thuggish. And she said "That's how the culture of the black community works..." And I wanted to scream at her, 'Then it's not a community! People in communities don't threaten each other with guns!'
Lileks made the point a few weeks later, when some minor crisis was threatening his neighborhood. I can't remember the details and can't find it with Google, but a sewage main had broken and was threatening a block party or something. And all the neighbors knocked on each other's doors and made plans to deal with it. His punch line: 'When you have a real community, it organizes itself: It doesn't need community organizers.'
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at May 13, 2009 1:32 PM
Ah, it wasn't even a crisis.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at May 13, 2009 1:45 PM
"Um, can we acknowledge that most blacks are quite aware that the dominant white economic forces have been loyally, exclusively patronizing each other for generations? (And with such ferocity that the practice doesn't even have a name other than "racism"?) Is there anything new about this? Anything?"
Good point, crid.
Where I live, in FL, Cubans come here, and they all pile into one house and work various jobs until all the family members can branch out on their own. They help each other set up businesses, and they mainly frequent the Cuban businesses of their families and friends. The wealthier members help the others rise up. This is a very old practice that almost every ethnic group has employed to get ahead. Perhaps blacks are just now catching on.
And cash flow isn't something you save. Cash has to be flowing all the time in a business. I have to furnish my rentals, for example, and I may want to buy the nicest furniture, but if a washing machine breaks, or an AC unit goes, that has to come first. I might have to buy a cheaper sofa. Then, my guests may complain about the quality, but it's what I can afford at the moment.
Money often flows in and goes right back out. If I don't have enough steady customers, I can't keep things maintained properly, yet, if I can't prove that I have enough customers, and enough income, I can't borrow the money either.
And I'm white. I would imagine it's much harder for a black business owner, who has to deal with racism at every level.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 1:49 PM
"I think it promotes victim-think and separatism."
Separatism maybe, but patronizing one's one is the exact opposite of victimhood.
snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 1:56 PM
Ugh.
"patronizing one's OWN"
Appalled at myself.
snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 1:57 PM
Guess I'm selfish. I buy the best product for my dollar value I don't give a crap who makes it.
I have a friend that will only buy American cars. And he pays for it in repairs. I would love to buy an American car but they aren't as reliable as the foreign cars, see consumer reports.
Wh cares who makes it reward the person that makes the best product.
David M. at May 13, 2009 2:22 PM
Ahem:
> I buy the best product for my
> dollar value I don't give a
> crap who makes it.
No biggie, it's the American way!
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at May 13, 2009 2:30 PM
Posted by: snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 10:18 AM
"Disagree with you on this one. First, the "Empowerment Experiment" is not a new one. Voluntarily feeding money into one's own community is a laudable goal - and perfectly consistent with free market principles."
Your confusing community with racial group.
I'd replace it and reread to see if it still seems ok. If even racial is loaded, use ethnic group. Its still not the same thing as community. As Americans, everyone around us should be free to be part of our community.
Thomass at May 13, 2009 3:09 PM
Was just reflecting on this little whine:
Two words: Barack. Obama.
I wonder if this lady thinks black people should only vote for people of their skin color -- which, to me, is racist and undemocratic and as wrong as women voting for somebody for office because...she has a vagina, too!
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 3:10 PM
Posted by: lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 12:04 PM
"People are free to support business owners they may have more in common with, and sometimes that is due to race, gender, or other common factors."
and I'm free to judge them based on it / in accordance with my standards of proper behavior.
Thomass at May 13, 2009 3:18 PM
"And I'm white. I would imagine it's much harder for a black business owner, who has to deal with racism at every level."
I was in a largish town (for MN) recently and stopped in at a coin shop. The proprieter was black. I had just the day before adopted my black daughter, and I asked him frankly what I should expect in the way of racism that she and we will have to deal with.
He said don't worry about it unless you're in the Twin Cities. He's never experienced it around here (in the 10 years he had been running the shop).
I hope he's right.
But the existence of this thread suggests we have a long way to go to get to a colorblind society, and these black-only initiatives won't help toward that goal.
Agoraphobic Plumber at May 13, 2009 3:18 PM
I have a dream.
A dream that one day, my little shopkeepers will one day live in a nation that judges them not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their inventory.
I have a dream today.
Mars vs Hollywood at May 13, 2009 3:20 PM
I have been saying for quite a while that Blacks are the most racist group of people in America today. This is just more evidence.
Course, it's quite un PC to say such things, but nobody has tried to say I was wrong, just wrong to say it.
Smashmaster at May 13, 2009 3:24 PM
Blacks are the most racist group in America. Period. End of story. Don't believe that? Check the rates at which they voted for Obama.
They've gotten away with it for the last 40 years. America has some hard times coming. I suspect that their privileged status won't be so easily come by in the future. A LOT more people know about Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom than the press wants to think, and there is a tremendous amount of anger among all other ethnic groups at the egregiously horrific numbers of black criminals. How can 12% of the population be so blithe about committing 50% of the violent crime?
When payback comes, it's going to be very ugly.
mac at May 13, 2009 3:27 PM
lovelysoul wrote: "Um, can we acknowledge that most blacks are quite aware that the dominant white economic forces have been loyally, exclusively patronizing each other for generations?"
I will not ascribe to that as it is not true. Neither my family nor my family of origin nor my grandparents engaged in race based spending. It may fit the myth of victimhood but it does not fit the facts.
I enjoy immigrant owned businesses and patronize them often. I don't care about their race, I care about their product.
Trey
Trey at May 13, 2009 3:40 PM
"I wouldn't feel comfortable telling a gay person that they shouldn't frequent gay-owned establishments - that they MUST go to straight-owned businesses so as not to be "biased"."
I don't think anyone here is advocating that you shouldn't frequent a [name any minority owned business] if they're "like you". Or that you MUST go elsewhere for appearances sake.
I think you're using a straw man argument there.
Oyster at May 13, 2009 3:40 PM
@11:54: "Does this mean Thai or Chinese or Mexican food is out - unless the restaurant is owned by a black person?"
Yes. Black Thai only.
Thomas at May 13, 2009 3:44 PM
Black Thai only
Oooooh!
And I wonder if this woman would have to stop patronizing my favorite restaurant. It was started and owned by a black guy, but he sold it, and now a white guy and his white wife own it. Their staff is black, Latino, and white. One of my favorite waitresses is a black girl from Finland!
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 3:52 PM
When I shop, I try to shop only non-union chains and stores. My principle is to boycott all unions. We will never buy another American car (that foils the unions AND the Marxist in the WH). When I buy services (insurance, etc.) my goal is to avoid all known big Dem contributors (Progressive, etc.). I'm less successful at this (I love Target, Starbucks, etc.) I couldn't care less what color the owners/proprietors are. But then, I'm white and not racist.
Peg C. at May 13, 2009 3:56 PM
Protectionism is free-market? Two legs baaaad...
Self-hating Boomer at May 13, 2009 4:02 PM
Yes. Black Thai only.
Love it.
Conan the Grammarian at May 13, 2009 4:03 PM
If I can identify a company owner as a supporter of Obama, I won't do business with him. What does that make me?
Other than smart, I mean.
Chester White at May 13, 2009 4:07 PM
As a white person I wouldn't walk 2 feet to patronize or boycott a business based on the race of the owner, management or staff. To do anything else is racism. I also wouldn't return to any business that didn't deliver goods and services at a level equal to or better than their prices. I do patronize ethnic businesses on occasion, not out of some false sense of supporting them based on their race, but because nobody has more authentic Indian spices than an Indian grocer. That being said when I go in there and see a bunch of women in Sari's I don't think they are racists, I think they are buying the products that meet their expectations. I also don't think they are traitors to their race when I see them in Sam's club buying the 50lb bag of rice.
Rignerd at May 13, 2009 4:08 PM
90% of my friends are with people of other races. Here I'll list some of my friends combos:
Asian/Latino
Asian/White
Asian/Black
Black/White
Hmmm...from the looks of it Asians are taking over the world. Let's boycott Asian owned businesses!
Actually I dont see this being a problem in 20 years.
ppen at May 13, 2009 4:09 PM
Precisely. Sewage is going to hit the compressor when one day black Americans are going to wake up and realize that having this white boy who decided to become black when he was in college in the white house may have given them hope, but there's no change. Change doesn't come from someone else. You gotta do it yourself.
Self-hating Boomer at May 13, 2009 4:10 PM
They sure aren't trying very hard on the mortgage broker.
I live in a Chicago suburb, and there's a black fellow who owns such a one-man-shop walking distance from the Metra commuter train, near me.
Chester White at May 13, 2009 4:13 PM
So, how would they feel if all other races suddenly STOPPED patronizing those businesses? It is blatant racism; pure and simple. I WOULD agree however with a movement to encourage everyone to patronize any minority-owned business that they can. I do this just by nature. I have a deep appreciation for people who come to this country and start a business instead of seeking a hand-out. My family came here and built buildings and farmed (and, okay, made a little moonshine here and there). I live in a little po-dunk town in the Northwest now, but we have dozens of small businesses and restaurants owned by minorities.
Scot E. at May 13, 2009 4:16 PM
None of us white people have to think about this. When we go to Walmart, or Starbucks, or almost any major business or chain in this country, we can count on it being white owned and run. We don't have to be "racist" to support our own kind. Probably 90% of our business goes there automatically.
Quaint tales of black shopkeepers in small towns, don't prove there is no racism.
I just had a tenant who was missing some items. Based solely on the color of their skin, he concluded two of my black employees must've stolen them. He then went on a public rant and said he couldn't believe that I was "such a stupid c--t to hire these jungle monkeys!"
So, in one fell swoop, he managed to betray both his sexism and racism. But that isn't surprising. Blacks and women know this is simmering just beneath the surface in a lot of people - some you'd never expect.
But I guarantee that guys like him don't go to black businesses. And he's not such a rarity. So, minorities have every right to throw their support behind other minority-owned businesses.
I mean, why isn't there a black-owned Walmart? If there were mainstream, black-owned businesses everywhere, then I'd say it was unnecessary, but at this point, there is still a racial imbalance.
And it just seems that blacks can't win in the white view. If they're tearing up their communites with drugs and gang-killings, then they're criticized. But, when they also try to build up their communities by supporting its business owners, helping their own kind get ahead and off welfare, they're also criticized.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 4:36 PM
Every chance I have, I shop only Republican owned businesses. As to race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality; well, you do the math.
Anna D at May 13, 2009 4:41 PM
How racially obtuse could you possible be? Not only are you ignorant to the fact that almost everything, everywhere is owned by white males, but you further your asine ignorance by publishing it?
Amy Alkon, wise up and try to see more than just your own small world. Just look at some of the ignorant people you have commenting on your site and the type of racism you are encouraging.
Your failure to grasp the concept of the "Empowerment Experiment" is outright bizarre. How could anyone that is supposedly intelligent enough to have their writings publish not understand black people trying to help themselves by supporting black owned businesses? And not understand that comparing it to a white person doing the same thing is ignorant, at the very least, and racist if done purposefully.
I hope you're proud of yourself, and I hope you hear an earful from your more intelligent friends.
Dave Dial at May 13, 2009 4:49 PM
"The idea is a sound one, given that black Americans are still underrepresented in the ranks of the self-employed and that entrepreneurship is a key component to wealth."
Is it because Blacks are so entrenched in the welfare state model that they have a hard time becoming entrepreneurs? I'd say "Yes." Blacks should start voting for Republicans for a change and see if that gets them headed in the direction of self-employment and entrepreneurship. The Democrat Party is the party of the perpetual plantation.
Anna D at May 13, 2009 4:49 PM
The commenter who calls himself "Self-hating Boomer" stretches irony too far:
> Americans are going to wake up
> and realize that having this
> white boy who decided to
> become black when he
I'm getting older. Apparently I'll live to be an old man. But even then, I'll have no understanding of this fascination with authenticity.
Why should Obama let someone like you –whatever your description– describe a moment where he "decided to become black"?
I think this guy's going to be a typically shitty president, perhaps worse than most. But the psychological precision which some people bring to their condemnations of public figures is just inexplicable witchcraft.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at May 13, 2009 4:51 PM
"Not only are you ignorant to the fact that almost everything, everywhere is owned by white males..."
You are the ignorant one. Women own about 77% of the wealth in the US; look it up.
No, I'm not going to find the link.
Chester White at May 13, 2009 4:55 PM
"Um, can we acknowledge that most blacks are quite aware that the dominant white economic forces have been loyally, exclusively patronizing each other for generations?"
Actually, the majority of the businesses people have patronized for generations are publicly held or franchises thereof. I've never met a white person who considered ethnicity in this sort of decision, the sole exception I can think of being nail salons. Of course, I've never met a black person who did so either; I suspect this article is less about a "movement" than about a group of bigots who want to start one.
"I would love to buy an American car but they aren't as reliable as the foreign cars, see consumer reports"
You should read it too. American cars are in the middle of the pack - generally (with the exception of Chrysler lines) better than European cars, not as good as high end Japanese brands.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/descending/page-#page-anchor
J at May 13, 2009 5:01 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/13/do_you_support.html#comment-1648320">comment from Dave DialNot only are you ignorant to the fact that almost everything, everywhere is owned by white males
I own my own business. I am white, and "progressives" have sent their little minions over here before to accuse me of having a penis as part of an intimidation attempt and an attempt to obstruct my speech, but, to the best of my knowledge, I'm not a white man. Is Oprah a white man? She came from nothing and made quite a bit of herself. So did our president. What it takes, as I tell the inner city kids I speak to, is being willing to work really hard, and when somebody says you can't do something, find a way around the no instead of accepting it. Look at my friend who's black. Couldn't afford fashion school, taught herself to design and sold clothes out of her station wagon and now sells to movie stars and rich foreigners.
Anyone can comment here. It's almost impossible to get banned unless you send a mob over here to destroy discussion for everybody with comments about my supposed penis or how I'm a transsexual, as the "progressives" did. This means that you can find comments you dislike or disagree with and dispute them -- as Crid just did, about somebody's characterization of the president. I'm for sunshine, and bringing thought out into the open where it can be weighed, not the silly notion that if it's not there it's some how better or doesn't exist.
What I respect are business owners who deliver great products and treat their customers with respect. What color they are, I couldn't care less. Actually, if anything, I love seeing immigrants to this country who make good, like the Asian couple that runs the Norm's burger stand in Burbank. The woman looks like she walked out of 1952 China and ended up in 2009 Burbank. And they seem like these hardworking people who own a business and are making a success of it, and probably had to learn English at an adult age and learn a completely different culture. The woman was lovely to me when I was there, and so was her husband, and their food was good, and I'd go back there in a red hot second.
How is comparing this campaign to a white person doing it at all racist? I find it deplorable that people -- any people -- make choices based on skin color. I don't choose my friends based on it -- or on national origin. I have French friends, Italian friends, Swiss friends, Canadian friends, Irish friends, English friends, Swedish friends, and Russian friends. And a few more I'm probably not thinking of. I seek a world where people behave in a way that's color and race-blind, and I don't like clannish or color-ish stick-to-it-iveness. Patronize the business where they treat you with respect and where their products and services have value. Whatever color the proprietor.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 5:04 PM
First, No one said there is no racism.
Second, The idea that I (or anyone else) who is white doesn't have to worry about accidentally supporting a business owned by an ethnic minority is freaking offensive. Frankly.
Third, Everything everyone said about the misuse of "community." And no one looks at a crime and drug ridden white "community" and talks about how "they" are tearing up that "community." And this is the problem... that the "community" is defined by skin color. It's not helpful. It perpetuates rather than solves problems. As someone or other has already said... a *community* does not shoot other members or steal from them. That's the opposite of what the word means.
Lastly, While it may seem laudable to want to patronize businesses with owners that look like you... it's likely not the best way of supporting other people who look like you. Patronizing a business also supports the employees of that business. Sort of like "fair trade" coffee that doesn't even try to judge how the farmers are treated or treat their employees, but only marks if the right business model is used.
Synova at May 13, 2009 5:13 PM
This is no different from supporting women-owned businesses or stay-at-home-mom-owned businesses, which many people do. By going to the extreme, they are raising awareness and getting people talking about the issue so I don't fault them. I go out of my way and am willing to pay more to support local businesses and growers because of similar principles to the couple in the article. My rural community is struggling. I want to raise my kids in this community so I'm putting my money where my values are. It's a bonus that several of the better run businesses in town are minority-owned and we are willing to pay extra to go to those stores & restaurants because they've given us exceptional customer service vs the big box retailers.
jane at May 13, 2009 5:14 PM
My response to this racist effort is I'm now going out of my way to avoid spending a penny in black owned businesses. They want to play this game? Let's play.
Sam at May 13, 2009 5:16 PM
...we can count on it being white owned and run....
I don't know about you, but I don't go into a business counting on it to be white-owned and white-run. Or looking for it to be minority-owned and minority-run.
I look for well-run.
And, yes, I frequent several minority-owned businesses as well as white-owned businesses.
Conan the Grammarian at May 13, 2009 5:16 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/13/do_you_support.html#comment-1648325">comment from Amy AlkonOh, and let's consider why some women might not be business owners -- perhaps because they are stay-at-home moms supported by their husbands?
I don't wish to marry or have children, and I support myself and have a business with two part-time employees, both women. I didn't hire them because they're women; I hired them because they're talented. Hiring them because they are women would be sexist and disgusting.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 5:19 PM
IF there is a social tradition of Black people choosing to shop at big name stores for the same reason that a kid doesn't want to wear clothes that Mom sewed... because only poor people do that...
Then that is a really *good* reason to make a big deal of changing buying habits to prefer and support the smaller shops, small businesses and self-employed people in the community.
Synova at May 13, 2009 5:23 PM
I could care less if you're a transsexual, a transvestite or any other sexuality. Defined or undefined.
Why, that's mighty White of you, mighty White. Speaking to blacks kids AND having a black friend? Mighty White.
Listen, if all it took was hard work then there would be a lot more rich people and a lot more business owners. For you not to realize that is a problem. You don't think the people working 16 hours a day 7 days a week for near poverty level pay are working hard?
There are other aspects to the equation that you purposely, or ignorantly, ignore. The special people on the lower rungs of society, who work hard and have that something extra, can make it. They can rise above the obstacles and push through the road blocks. But they are far and few between.
People who grow up in the suburbs or with rich parents who have connections will always be more likely to reach the levels you describe.
Ignoring that reality either makes you an ignorant racist, or just plain ignorant. If you 'black friend' won't tell you that honestly, it's because she just thinks it's useless and explaining things to you isn't worth her time.
Dave Dial at May 13, 2009 5:32 PM
Actually, I'd love to know how "Dave Dial" found my site. Google "Dave Dial" and "racist" or "racism" or like words. Do you go looking for people to accuse of racism as a hobby, Dave?
P.S. I also deplore "minority fellowships" instead of fellowships for disadvantaged kids of any color or background. Wanna talk racism? THAT is racism. Along with the offer by some journalism organization to provide only the minority candidates for some program with free plane tickets to a conference. Sorry, but plane tickets are somehow more affordable if you're a poor white kid?
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 5:34 PM
*"Protectionism is free-market?"
Don't be glib. We're obviously not talking about international regulation or any other kind of government fiat. This is a discussion about private consumerism.
*"Two words: Barack. Obama."
Not sure what this is supposed to mean. Despite his best efforts, Barach Obama will not put significant dollars in anyone's pockets, let alone shift the economic position of large segments of society in any meaningful way. Nor should we look to his election as some kind of panacea to the horrendous condition of our inner cities. However, planting the seeds of self-determination and entrepreneurship can, over time, make a difference. I'll lay ten to one odds that the same commenters so quick to paint the Experiment as racist will then trot out the same tired cliche that the American black population refuses to pull itself up by its own bootstraps. Do you not see that this is exactly what the Experiment is meant to achieve? I agree with all the commenters noting that ultimately a business' success lies with its product. But all things being equal, how is investing your patronage as you see fit a bad thing?
*"When payback comes, it's going to be very ugly"
*"Is it because Blacks are so entrenched in the welfare state model that they have a hard time becoming entrepreneurs? I'd say 'Yes.'"
Well, as long as we're not being racist. Sheesh.
snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 5:36 PM
To "Mac" who used the percentage of black voters who voted for President Obama as evidence of black racism -
Take a look at the percentage of black voters who voted for Kerry, Gore, Clinton and any other Democratic presidential candidate in recent memory before repeating this canard. You won't find them to be significantly lower than the percentage that voted for Obama. On the contrary, when Lynn Swan (beloved, African-American football hero from the Steelers glory days) ran for office here in PA a few years back he lost the black vote decisively. Black voting patterns may show a strong tendency to vote for the Democratic candidate, but not for black candidates over candidates of other ethnicities.
S.Pat at May 13, 2009 5:38 PM
Conan, I'm saying whites don't have to think about this at all. I don't expect you to think about it or count on it. We whites are not in a situation of seeing our own failing to get ahead.
"While African-Americans income has risen from $23,514 (in 2002, dollars) to $30,134 in 2004, their wealth is a different story. Thomas Shapiro, in his book The Hidden Cost of Being African American, states that while the average white family has an average of $81,000 in ((net worth)) the average black family only has $8,000. This means that black families possess, on average, only 10 cents for every white dollar in wealth."
If we whites were in the same situation, we might have to give it some thought, but we have the luxury of not worrying about this because white-owned businesses are by far the most successful.
When a minority group suffers discrimination, such as gays, for instance, they know that a certain amount of the population won't do business with them out of prejudice. They have every right to then encourage and support other gay businesses, which they do. Lots of gay travel agencies exist, and they prefer to promote gay-friendly locations and spend their money at gay-owned resorts, hotels, and businesses.
Although, I'm in the tourism business too and would love some of that "gay dollar", I understand completely why they are doing this. They're making a concerted effort to compensate for the losses these businesses incur through discrimination.
To deny that they incur these losses is to pretend that there is no prejudice or discrimination, but we all know that's not true.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 5:40 PM
*"I also deplore "minority fellowships" instead of fellowships for disadvantaged kids of any color or background."
Amy, keep in mind that many of these fellowships are the result of testamentary gifts made by wealthy graduates. You may deplore race-conscious thinking, but I hope love freedom more.
snakeman99 at May 13, 2009 5:43 PM
"They're old now, but the last numbers I saw reported indicated blacks make up 12% of population but control less than 1% of wealth."
And that's not their fault at all, is it? People can shop where they want to shop (for now at least) but I find it odd that they would do this. As odd as burning extra fossil fuels to be "green" by where you shop.
Why hate walmart? other than the crappy quality, why are they evil? They are quite the american success story.
I refuse to shop at target. Shitty return policy, and crappy customer service.
momof3 at May 13, 2009 5:43 PM
I could care less if you're a transsexual, a transvestite or any other sexuality.
You sound a little too familiar with the tiny little progressive fascists.
Amazing that you have to sneer at a program that I started, that pays me nothing, in which I talk to kids to try to show them what's possible in the world. Kids I speak to are white, black, and Latino. What they have in common is that they come from poor backgrounds. What do you do to make change in this world? Do you just blather on blogs?
Did Oprah grow up in the suburbs? Was Barack Obama the product of a rich, intact family?
My own family came here as Russian peasant immigrants, on one side, and poor Germans on the other. Jews running from Europe. My great grandfather didn't have connections; he picked up trash on Detroit's streets and sold scrap metal he found. He sent my grandfather to college on that.
I struggled myself to become a writer. Worked as a mover and a bike messenger at times in New York, and at one point, was so poor I couldn't afford a bed. I slept on a door propped up on two milk crates, with a sleeping bag and an old pillow. I worked my ass off to get where I was, and that's what it takes for anybody to get anywhere.
I've also written up my program and applied for Google funding, although they're delayed in announcing finalists. I want the program to be administered across the country by Boys & Girls Clubs of America if it is funded. No speaker gets money, just BGCA, to administer the program, get speakers to schools on time, get them to the right classes. My goal is to have people in various careers -- chef, dry cleaner owner, advice columnist, scientist, restaurant owner, home business owner -- talk to disadvantaged kids from the earliest grades on to be living examples of what they can do with their lives (which they lack in their own communities).
So, what are you doing to change things, blowhard -- besides calling me racist simply because there seems to be nobody else to do it to this afternoon?
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 5:44 PM
Amy, keep in mind that many of these fellowships are the result of testamentary gifts made by wealthy graduates. You may deplore race-conscious thinking, but I hope love freedom more.
Not in the organization of editors I'm thinking of -- it's the organization's money, funneled only to people of a certain color.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 5:46 PM
If people want to spend their dollars on a hobby like "helping one legged left-handed dyslexics" that's their business. If they choose a category like black, green, blue skin, no difference. What they will find is that they spend more and get less, because the parameter they've chosen does not correlate strongly (or at all; or correlates inversely?) with the economic output that a dollar would typically buy. But hey, it's their money. What irks me is their getting all snooty about it, like they're saving the world. Half their payback isn't the glow of putting money into "their" community of interest, it's (ever so reluctantly and modestly of course) talking about it. Which is an implicit rebuke to the rest of us. Yeah, work for that guilt thing. Not.
Bottom line, any time you distort the demand function with moral crusades like this, you hurt the economy. Mostly your own wallet (unless the show is being subsidized by taxpayers, and too often it is). But also the supplier, who is deluded by your custom into thinking he's competitive at X on the price/value curve, when he really isn't.
oMan at May 13, 2009 5:48 PM
There are Christians who buy and hire Christian and Mormons who buy and hire Mormon. This is America (for now) and we can patronize whom we please (for the moment).
SukieTawdry at May 13, 2009 5:53 PM
I think if people want to buy from black stores, or white stores, or Asian stores, or whatever stores, they should go ahead and do that. I don't think there is anything immoral about it.
People often self-segregate themselves, and I think that is OK. Does that mean I want to live like that? No. But if some dude only wants to shop at stores owned by Mongolians, then I say, go for it. What's it to me?
NicoleK at May 13, 2009 6:19 PM
This is America (for now) and we can patronize whom we please (for the moment).
Sure you can, and we can discuss what we please (for the moment), although I have heard rumblings (but nothing substantive enough to post) about the "Fairness Doctrine" and wishes to apply it to the Internet and elsewhere.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 6:26 PM
The problem with this movement is that if it were a say the "white empowerment movement" is that it would be decried as racist.
Richard at May 13, 2009 6:27 PM
None of us white people have to think about this. When we go to Walmart, or Starbucks, or almost any major business or chain in this country, we can count on it being white owned and run. We don't have to be "racist" to support our own kind. Probably 90% of our business goes there automatically.
There's always been this infuriating failure of white people to acknowledge the advantage that demographics gives you that's either disingenuous or ridiculously un-self aware. And it's not a question of whether you asked for the advantage, or whether you consciously exploit the advantage; it's simply a question of if it exists, and if so how do you realistically expect other rational actors who don't have the advantage to behave? The logically answer is, in ways intended to diminish your advantage, and gain or maximize their own.
Which is why this post is so utterly ridiculous. The premise here seems to be that the preferred behavior for blacks would be for them to shop in a colorblind manner. Um, why? Other than the rather meaningless approval of a handful of white people, where's the gain? There's the question of best value for your money, but assuming equal quality of goods and similar prices, why wouldn't a black consumer prefer a black merchant? Even if there a direct cost differential, in the total cost of the transaction what's the value of patronizing a business where the the shopper probably gets premium service, a less self conscious shopping experience, other potential direct benefits (white people can and do shop in this manner, otherwise you wouldn't have restricted country clubs; are all the members of such racists?). Then there are the more intangible and longer term potential benefits to increasing wealth and entrepreneurship among your demographic, since so many arguments in America come down to stats. Many people have expressed the assumption that these black owned businesses are inferior because they need to be "propped up" (Aren't all profitable businesses, by definition, "propped up" by customers? Isn't that kind of the point?) why are we supposed to beleive that failure is a preferable option. Or would these people suddenly discover and start patronizing these business just because blacks weren't shopping there? So basically your argument seems to come down to "...since I want to ignore my advantage, or pretend it doesn't exist, so are you".
Junyo at May 13, 2009 6:29 PM
Yes, it is indeed racist to consider race in the situation described.
Although they don't state so explicitly, some of the replies here rely on a distinction between "good" racism and "bad" racism. Much as in Affirmative Action. Personally, I reject the postulate that there is any "good" racism.
The way to end racism is to stop practicing it. That includes everybody.
tom swift at May 13, 2009 6:45 PM
Well said, Junyo. That's exactly it. We want minorities to ignore their disadvantages so we can deny our advantages.
You know, I can't even frequent many black businesses because, where I live, there aren't any blacks! It's different in big cities, where you have such a mix of ethnicities, but in much of America, communities are divided. Whites have built whole communities that are out of reach for most black families.
I live in an upscale, basically all white enclave. It's cost-prohibitive for blacks to even live here, much less start businesses. The few black-owned businesses that exist have been here many years, predating the rise in wealth - like my septic man, who owns his own company.
But, for the most part, blacks are now only bused into my community to work - cleaning hotels and working in restaurants - then go home, many miles away, to more affordable communities.
So, as much as I may want to be, I can't be colorblind in the businesses I frequent. The only color available is white.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 6:47 PM
There's always been this infuriating failure of white people to acknowledge the advantage that demographics gives you that's either disingenuous or ridiculously un-self aware.
-dumbass(Junyo)
How racially obtuse could you possible be? Not only are you ignorant to the fact that almost everything, everywhere is owned by white males, but you further your asine ignorance by publishing it?
Amy Alkon, wise up and try to see more than just your own small world. Just look at some of the ignorant people you have commenting on your site and the type of racism you are encouraging.
-dumbass#2(Dave Dial)
What minorities fail to recognise is that 'white' people dont share some sort of giant communal piggy bank. Some white rich people will fuck over white poor people, hell they'll fuck over other white rich poeple.
Junyo most corperations may be run by a board full of white people, but the share holders who 'own' the company come from every walk of life. The average mom and pop store owned bt a white person struggles against the corperations every bit as much as those owned by blacks, or asians, or latinos
And Dave who is the one promoting racism? The preson who said look at this? Or the people that said the skin color of a store owner is more important to me than the goods or service I get? The person who said this seems racist? Or the mother that took away her daughters earring for no other reason then they were from a white mans store?
Tell me Dave if a white familly took their daughter jewerly because a black person sold it would you really call the person who commented on it racist or the person who did it?
But thats right only white people can be racist - we have to be punished for slavery right. Who cares that we never owned slaves, find the practice abborhent, or that many of our ancestors were abolishonists or arrived here after the civil war. What really matters is we look like 'them' and therefore have to pay.
God I hate stupid people, I was sooooo looking forward to a global swine flu pandemic
lujlp at May 13, 2009 6:50 PM
"Junyo most corporations may be run by a board full of white people, but the share holders who 'own' the company come from every walk of life."
They may come from all walks of life, but shareholders are almost all white. Statistically, blacks own very little stock.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 6:55 PM
Here's the real test, as far as I'm concerned.
If all of you posting here are really, truly, the colorblind society you claim to be, how many of you have black internists, or Latino dentists, or Asian pediatricians? How many men here have been cut open by female surgeons (the E.R. excluded, since you can't choose)?
JulieA at May 13, 2009 6:56 PM
Japanese dentist, male Latino gynecologist, black female veterinarian.
I go to them all for the same reason: They're great at what they do.
My vet, in particular, is not only good at what she does, she is the kindest vet I have ever encountered. Oh, before her, I took Lucy to a female Japanese vet. She was very good, but the one I go to now is wonderful.
P.S. If you live around Santa Monica, I'd recommend any of them. Dentist is in Marina Del Rey, as is the vet. Gyno is at Kaiser.
My internist is a white female. Um...I hope that's okay! I didn't pick her because she was white -- I read reviews of Kaiser primary care physicians in my area, and she was the most highly rated. Seems a good way to choose.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:00 PM
What's funny about the nitwit (Dave Dial) accusing me of being a racist is that one of the things I love about where I live (and lived -- in NYC) after moving out of a Detroit suburb, is how mixed everybody is: different races, from different places...I find it exciting.
And I love how people sneer at you when you mention black friends. They're my friends, and become my black friends in situations like this. As with all my friends, all are people I find intellectually exciting, admirable, and interesting in a number of ways, just like my friends of any color. I also had a black boyfriend for a while. I didn't want to go out with him at first, though -- not because he was black, but because he was an actor!
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:06 PM
They may come from all walks of life, but shareholders are almost all white. Statistically, blacks own very little stock.
Nor do I, because I don't buy it. I do research related to my work, and I'm too tired after all my reading to start figuring out companies' prognosis.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:14 PM
"There's always been this infuriating failure of white people to acknowledge the advantage that demographics gives you that's either disingenuous or ridiculously un-self aware. And it's not a question of whether you asked for the advantage, or whether you consciously exploit the advantage; it's simply a question of if it exists, and if so how do you realistically expect other rational actors who don't have the advantage to behave?"
Really. Funny how this "demographic advantage" that whites allegedly have over racial groups doesn't seem to prevent Asian immigrants from becoming successful quickly, usually within one generation. And many of them are absolutely poor when they come over, and have many other additional obstacles that black Americans don't, such as not being able to speak English, and have often given up their entire life's savings and left all their family and friends behind just to make it to the American shore, to a land in which they know nobody, are a minority, and can barely speak the main language ... complain about "obstacles" blacks face - hey, other people face obstacles too.
Mouse at May 13, 2009 7:16 PM
The guy who cut out half my lung was pakistani, my first CO was latino, my first XO was asian, my first drill sergant was black.
The real test JulieA isnt what minorites are you freinds with, or patronise, or let preform surgery on you.
The real test is if you even pay attention to such details, as opposed to things like their skill level, their personality, their level of service.
And the real question is why details such as race and sex are of such importance to small minded douchbags
lujlp at May 13, 2009 7:18 PM
Great point. My Korean ex-assistant is a perfect example. First generation American, grew up hardscrabble, couldn't afford university, went to Santa Monica college, did so well she got a scholarship to Northwestern. Her parents learned English, but her grandma, who lived with them, did not. I've told this story before, but I loved how, when granny answered the phone, she'd hang up on anyone who called who spoke English, no matter how the family begged her not to.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:20 PM
That's because you've lived in big cities with broader ethnic mixes, Amy. But I think if you ask your black friends to be honest, they will tell you that they've had to work twice as hard as whites to achieve whatever they've achieved.
And, in suburban communities, especially upper scale ones, blacks are often completely locked out. They can't afford to buy property, or start businesses, and even when they do, they face prejudice from many potential customers.
I know you're not racist, but I think living in places like NYC doesn't give you the sense of how racially divided our country, as a whole, still is. Whites are building and living in isolated, gated enclaves effectively to "protect" themselves from blacks (and, to lesser degree, hispanics). So, it's much harder for blacks to succeed in business when they don't have access to so many white customers.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 7:22 PM
Oh, and look at Eugene Volokh and other Russian emigres who've come here and made good and then some. He's a Constitutional scholar and law prof at UCLA and made his first million selling software he invented when he was a teenager.
Another Russian-born friend of mine just finished a Guggenheim fellowship. Another is a noted researcher. They all came here not speaking the language and made good. I believe all are Russian Jews.
Painter Roman Genn came here much later, after getting beaten up and thrown in jail in Russia, and has done incredibly well also.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:23 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/13/do_you_support.html#comment-1648363">comment from lujlpThe real test is if you even pay attention to such details, as opposed to things like their skill level, their personality, their level of service.
Right on, luj. In my case, I just happen to have a vet, a dentist, and a gynecologist who are black, Japanese and Latino. It is of no interest to me, and I chose them because they're good at their respective jobs. Still, I do love being able to pull the doctor/dentist/vet color scheme out for those who insist I'm racist for suggesting we assess people simply "by the content of their character" instead of by their skin color, a really, really great idea from Martin Luther King.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:27 PM
And, in suburban communities, especially upper scale ones, blacks are often completely locked out. They can't afford to buy property, or start businesses, and even when they do, they face prejudice from many potential customers.
I feel the solution isn't to pull out of society as a whole and create an economic ghetto. FYI, My father sells and rents commercial property in Detroit and the outlying areas and a large proportion of his customers are black. And they're right to come to him -- and they do it on recommendation a lot of the time, because he puts a lot of integrity and hard work into what he does.
And the notion that life is balanced and fair for everybody is just naive. There are people who discriminate against people for color or origin or religion or looks. A woman I worked for gave all the good jobs to the guys and gave me shit jobs. I quit and went freelance. This happens -- for many reasons. I'm not denying that there's discrimination against blacks, but I'm saying that we are at our best as a melting pot, not a lot of separate pots.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 7:37 PM
"There's always been this infuriating failure of white people to acknowledge the advantage that demographics gives you that's either disingenuous or ridiculously un-self aware. And it's not a question of whether you asked for the advantage, or whether you consciously exploit the advantage; it's simply a question of if it exists, and if so how do you realistically expect other rational actors who don't have the advantage to behave? The logically answer is, in ways intended to diminish your advantage, and gain or maximize their own." (Junyo @ 6:29).
This is the poison, folks. This is how racism burrows down and down under the logical layers, shifting its terms of reference, revising its vocabulary and context; but always still racism. Junyo, if you can't see how stupid that remark is, there is nothing that we can do to help you. Counting by color; thinking in color terms; collective/group rights; arbitrary fictions about "institutionalized race-based power structures" where there is no --no-- legal basis for those assertions; all the same toxic rubbish. Because it means you refuse to see those around you as individuals who strive and suffer as individuals, each uniquely driven and talented and flawed. You insist on seeing them as objects of your own sick theory and damaged personality.
Sad.
oMan at May 13, 2009 7:48 PM
Gonna disagree Amy. I still think it's a test. I too pick doctors for their skill (especially anyone who's cutting me open). But I'm open -- no pun intended -- to anyone.
I don't think that's true of a lot of people -- and I certainly don't think it was true back when I was choosing doctors for the first time on my own after college. My female surgeon friend and my Korean dentist friend would have never gotten their practices established then if women and Koreans hadn't patronized them. Ditto my black dermatologist.
And luj, I don't normally pay attention to such details anymore. This blog post is about the subject so kinda silly to ask me to ignore it.
JulieA at May 13, 2009 7:51 PM
"Blacks are the most racist group in America. Period. End of story. Don't believe that? Check the rates at which they voted for Obama." - Mac
I can't swear to this, but I'm pretty sure if you added up all the blacks who have voted for white candidates over the decades vs. all the whites who voted for black candidates, blacks are going to come out ahead hands down.
JulieA at May 13, 2009 7:56 PM
My female surgeon friend and my Korean dentist friend would have never gotten their practices established then if women and Koreans hadn't patronized them. Ditto my black dermatologist.
But, let's explore that -- isn't it likely that your Korean dentist friend has many Korean friends?
And when you say you don't think it's true of a lot of people, that they don't choose by color, how does having black people suggest blacks only patronize black businesses lead to color-blind choosing? You don't cure racism with racism.
Oh, and P.S. my vet, gynecologist, and dentist might've all been white men. It just so happened friends recommended a black woman and Japanese dentist, and I went to a Latino gynecologist by luck of the Kaiser draw and liked him, and kept going.
When I was a kid, we had an Italian dentist with a long funny Italian name. I'm guessing he was Catholic. Our doctor was of Polish origin, and Christian. My parents, who are Jewish, did not pick doctors or dentists or businesses to patronize based on ethnicity, race, or religion. I mean, it's not like there's any shortage of Jewish doctors or dentists, huh?
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 8:00 PM
Or should I do what I'm doing, go where they're friendly, affordable, and do a good job on my clothes?
Wow, that is a whole me, beloved boyfriend, and John thing all in one little statement.
I am Asian and had the choice of several cleaners to go to. Ended up with the Asian one, but not same nationality as me. I sometimes think I grew up in the only Asian household that did not bash other Asian nationalities, but these nice people killed that notion.
Beloved had issues with, no they had issues with him, Ford people (of all things, and I am a total Ford girl too). He was, until this year, a Dodge guy and he is keeping his Dodges. Various dorks in various establishments had to start giving him crap about that, so he took his business elsewhere.
John, the book guy, ran into some crazy issue with shoe repair places where he lives in VA. He uses an Asian guy now (who looked at me like I was Satin or something when I visited) because he is prompt and honest vs. the guy down the way who is from South or Central America and is not as good with his customers.
John seems to run into problems for not being "Italian enough" with the New York Italians too. Go figure.
This is certainly one aspect of the Libertarian thing I live, if I am understanding it right. Buy from where they take care of you. Buy from where they appreciate your business. Buy the best deal, including all of those fuzzies besides price.
Well, maybe that last one was against Amy's point a bit, but I did not mean it that way.
BTW, Amy, you have more good company on the store. Ayn Rand, Mark Lavin, John's Suki book and Neil Stephenson!
Suki ;)
Suki at May 13, 2009 8:07 PM
Well, yes, Amy, but who is separating the pots? I submit that whites are separating into their own little pots - their own little white communities - first. So, why is it wrong for blacks to say, "They're not patronizing our businesses enough, so WE have to stick together and help each other succeed."
Hispanics do it, and they have become very successful, practically running places like Miami. Gays do it, and they've singlehandled renovated whole areas and made them gay-friendly communities, welcoming to gay businesses. And Jews do it - building business and social networks that are better than almost any out there in promoting success for their own group.
A Jewish friend took me to a party last year, and every single person there was Jewish. It became clear from their stories that he had relied on many of them through the years for assistance - for referrals, business connections, and even loans - and they had done the same with him, and it seemed no small coincidence that a high percentage of them were very successful.
I agree that blacks shouldn't try to be completely disconnected from the broader world, but it seems to me that, in many ways, whites have already made that a reality, just as anti-semites did with Jews. So, perhaps their best option is to rally together like these other groups have.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 8:07 PM
...whites are not in a situation of seeing our own failing to get ahead.
Nor are blacks, if they pay attention. There are black CEOs, black artists, black lawyers, black scientists, etc. But the media only point out rappers and sports stars as examples of successful black people.
The SF Chronic...le ran a special feature during Black History Month. They highlighted a famous black person and gave a little bio of this person. Almost every one of the people the Chron chose to highlight was a dancer, singer, or musician.
What's wrong with highlighting Henry O. Flipper (first African-American graduate of West Point) or either of the Benjamin O. Davises (Sr. = self-made general while Jr. = commander of Tuskegee Airmen and driving force behind 55mph speed limit)? Even George Washington Carver didn't make the cut this year. How about Garrett Morgan (inventor of the gas mask)? How about Ken Chenault, Richard Parson, or Alwyn Lewis (CEOs of American Express, Time-Warner, and Sears)?
The media have been complicit in showing black kids that they can only succeed as entertainers or professional athletes.
Conan the Grammarian at May 13, 2009 8:10 PM
A Jewish friend took me to a party last year, and every single person there was Jewish.
How incredibly dull.
Amy Alkon at May 13, 2009 8:31 PM
For some reason this post is reminding me of these brave men.
Perhaps I am going overboard here, but there is this too:
Amy, you may be interested in this too, from the same site:
-The only Jewish Military Cemetery located outside of Israel was established in the Confederacy at Richmond, Virginia.
Not positive all of the above is exact, but it is more true than the crap a lot of people get in school (public or many private).
Oh, the bit about the US Army (it was really the whole US Military) not integrating until 1948? That was two years AFTER Barry Goldwater racially integrated the Arizona Air National Guard.
Suki ;)
Suki at May 13, 2009 8:45 PM
Amy, you completely miss my point. I don't want people to choose because of color. I don't want them to NOT choose because of color or gender or race -- and 20 years ago people did when it came to doctors (and my example was when my friends were establishing their practices) and I'm betting that many still do.
You asked: Isn't it likely that your Korean dentist friend has many Korean friends?
I didn't mention a Korean. That said, I don't know many people who choose doctors or dentists who are also their friends. It just seems. . . uncomfortable. Unlike on TV, I'm pretty sure surgeons aren't supposed to operate on friends, either. Plus who has enough friends to sustain an entire medical practice.
Lastly on this subject: I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'd bet that most if not all of these remarkable immigrant friends you've cited arrived with a. a college education b. ambition instilled by educated parents or 3. a net of established relatives to land in.
JulieA at May 13, 2009 8:46 PM
How incredibly dull.
Loud and dull at the same time? ;)
Hey, I am stuck in your spam filter again for too many relevant historical links!
--Suki
Suki at May 13, 2009 8:49 PM
My bad, sorry. I did mention my Korean dentist friend. Only he's actually Cambodian. (Hand slaps forehead)
JulieA at May 13, 2009 8:51 PM
"How incredibly dull".
No, not really. It was on Star Island. They even had belly dancers. Best party I've ever been to actually, and I left feeling quite impressed and a bit envious of that sort of social networking. I mean, I'm fairly successful, but I always suspect I could've been even more successful with those kind of contacts. And my friend has had the benefit of that since childhood. (He was actually orphaned at 14, left homeless, and still he's a multi-millionaire today).
In business, hard work is important, but it's often more who you know...and I think that's largely the kind of support and "leg up" that blacks miss out on entirely.
lovelysoul at May 13, 2009 8:55 PM
"stupid and racist"
That's redundant, or it would be if you said "racist and stupid." What I'm trying to say is that racism is stupid although not all stupidity is racist.
While I agree that this is a very stupid idea, I fully support these folks' right to do what they want with their money. In fact it's kind of refreshing to see a political movement where people do stupid things with their own money instead of mine.
Shawn at May 13, 2009 10:07 PM
As the late great Milton Friedman was so fond of noting, one of the most beneficial effects of free markets is that they permit groups to interact economically who otherwise would not. If you are in the business of making, for example, refrigerators, you do not have to like or even know personally the supplier who makes the compressors that go into your units. By allowing market forces, primarily price, and quality to determine the value of goods and services, we take race, sex, age, religion, ethnicity, and politics out of the transaction to the fullest extent possible. All that matters is that you provide a service or product that suits my needs, and about which we can agree on price. Does the system work perfectly? No. Can it be abused? Of course. But it works as well as any system humanity has yet devised.
If this back couple want to patronize only black-owned businesses, fine by me. Go ahead against logic and common sense and shop for groceries many miles away instead of patronizing that suitable neighborhood grocery store owned by a Korean. Do that enough times, and convince your neighbors to do the same, and eventually that mercheant will close his doors, and move elsewhere, thus leaving your neighborhood with one less market, maybe none - thus assuring you have no choice but to drive 20 miles for a carton of milk. Smart, really smart... about as smart as those rioters in South Central years ago who burned and looted their own neighborhoods and businesses. Yep, this is the colorblind society Dr. King died for, one in which black people have every opportunity to be as stupid as any other race. Go figure....
Pete at May 13, 2009 11:02 PM
If white people offered each black adult $1 million to leave America and go to any other country, with the promise never to return, the US economy would receive a net positive ROI in the long run.
That is da truth.
We even created a country for them to return to - Liberia. Look at how well that country turned out under their autonomous management.
TTT at May 13, 2009 11:31 PM
Dave Dial - "Why, that's mighty White of you, mighty White. Speaking to blacks kids AND having a black friend? Mighty White."
Dave - could you translate this for me? I get a general impression of sarcasm, but nothing specific. Not being from the US I may be missing out on some of what you are trying to say. Keep it literal and explicit.
Norman at May 14, 2009 12:19 AM
Where I am in Scotland there's not many blacks, but those who are here tend to be in the university where I work. Oddly enough my line manager is black.
Well, Indian. Is that black enough?
Norman at May 14, 2009 12:22 AM
I just knew that some neo-Confederate would show up to repeat the garbage claims about blacks in the Confederate army. The fact (as verified by numerous historians who have examined Confederate army records) is that blacks were not allowed in the Confederate army. A few "free colored" Southerners tried to enlist; a handful were actually enrolled by local recruiting officers; each of them was discharged as soon as the Confederate national government found out about him. At the very end of the war, there was a program to enlist slave volunteers, and a few hundred were actually mustered in Richmond, but they never saw action.
As to the subject of the posting: It is not racist to support members of one's ethnic or religious community with private assistance, such as helping raise capital. Insisting on doing business only with one's own group is bigotry.
Rich Rostrom at May 14, 2009 1:06 AM
You know, for all the hundred-odd comments on this post (this one's been a humdinger, that's for sure!), a couple things did cross my mind:
It's really none of my business where Maggie and John Anderson buy their stuff. It's really none of my business why they buy their stuff where they do. I think it's wonderful that they're in a position where they can make that choice, and nobody can say anything about it (although we can analyze it to death).
old rpm daddy at May 14, 2009 5:17 AM
The thing that irritates me about the "white gated communities" argument is that if a white person walked up to the gate they would just be let in. No ID not check to see who you are visiting, just go on in you pass the color test. Bullshit the white gated community is about keeping poor people out regardless of color. This is why West's Bush comment was so stupid. Bush doesn't care about any poor people regardless of race.
vlad at May 14, 2009 6:28 AM
I think the main difference here is that this couple chose to be open about their "bigotry".
My Jewish friend doesn't announce that he had plenty of help from other Jews making the millions he has. Hispanics probably don't have an organized plan, but it is their culture to help their own kind and do business with their own, thereby helping them get ahead.
I do referrals daily to other businesses, and they refer mine in return. We're all white, since, as I said, there are almost no blacks here. But no one complains, "Whites are helping whites! How racist!" It's just such an old practice that, as Crid says, it doesn't have a name and no one makes an official announcement. Yet, I, as a white person, along with other white people, benefit from this business networking.
There's no reason blacks can't do the same. And, btw, Indian is not black.
lovelysoul at May 14, 2009 6:40 AM
The success of Somali immigrants, Sudanese immigrants etc unmasks the lie that blacks struggle to succeed because of racism.
Nickel and Dimed was a farce of a book and Dial has never studied poverty at an academic level. In the United States provided you do not suffer diminished mental capacity, you do not work 16 hours a day to live in poverty. It does not happen.
During the riots in South Central, Asian businesses were targeted by racists like the racists who are mentioned in this article. If Jews shop at Jewish businesses because they want kosher food that is not racist, if Pakistanis patronize Pakistani businesses because they provide Pakistani food they cannot find elsewhere that is not racist either, but Asian stores that thrive in the inner city are thriving because of hard work. Immigrants work hard, take risks, deny themselves things they want because they put their savings into their businesses and then they assimilate! It happened with Norwegians, it happened with Italians, it happened with Russians...
Segregated ghettos now exist by the choosing of the inhabitants. Do not start an idiotic lecture to me about how I have never been poor, I worked three jobs to pay my way through college, worked two jobs during graduate school. My parents lacked the money to pay for either because they are busy running a charity. I have adopted siblings of various races and from various countries. My siblings have emulated me and do not disclose race when they apply for scholarships or jobs. Inasmuch as it is possible we seek to live in a post racial world. We do not let the racism of others create or justify racism within us.
Liberal "progressives" with their condescending racism that says that cutting welfare hurts black people absolutely hate Sudanese immigrant success. The "lost boys" came to America with no education, with language barriers etc and they ended up succeeding because of hard work.
The final hurdle to racist free America is the end of affirmative action and other programs which leave an educated consumer with the correct view that it is more difficult to assess an individual based on their educational credentials if they are in a favored minority. Although an educated consumer knows that if you want the best doctor, look for the Harvard graduate who is Asian and grew up in this country. The Asian American medical student has harder barriers to entry into Harvard Med than a white man, and much harder than a white woman. That is the last bastion of governmentally sanctioned racism and it hurts society.
Dabney at May 14, 2009 6:54 AM
Norman, "That's mighty White of you" is an expression that translates as "That's very gallant of you" or "That's very noble of you", the implication that White=noble/good/gallant/etc. It is a phrase traditionally ascribed to racists, for obvious reasons.
I think Dave Dial was accusing her of a "noblesse oblige" attitude about "saving the poor, disadvantaged negro". When I read the post, the implication was that Dave thinks she is being patronizing. That is how I read it.
Personally, I think teaching black kids the how of being successful is a great idea. I hope she warns them about credit cards while she's in there.
Actually, this is something I wish Amy would post more about. She alludes to it often, but what is a typical speech/lesson plan like?
NicoleK at May 14, 2009 6:57 AM
Lastly on this subject: I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'd bet that most if not all of these remarkable immigrant friends you've cited arrived with a. a college education b. ambition instilled by educated parents or 3. a net of established relatives to land in.
Liberals believe that certain people need help from the government because there are so many racists and such barriers to education that they cannot succeed without governmental intervention. Take from this group and give to this other group because anything else is unfair and the second group (the children, dependents, looters) cannot make it without the taxation (robbery, redistribution) of the governmental actor.
Recent immigrants and their success show that this is a lie. There are two types of legal immigrants for those who care to actually learn anything about this subject, those granted asylum based on refugee status, persecution etc and those who we seek out because of their skill set. If a man with a PHD from Russia comes here, or an MD from India, of course they will succeed because of their intellects and background...That is not the case that makes liberals quake! It is rather the uneducated orphan who has a language barrier and who learns everything and becomes successful despite being black who makes them so angry!
There is a liberal argument that says that blacks do not succeed due to a "culture of poverty" beyond their means to control. Because of attrition through the incentives given for unwed mothers and the racist war on drugs, black boys have no strong role models.
The problem for these liberals is that there are people coming here who grew up without running water, who would have thought that Cabrini Green was safe compared to running from civil war and murder and rape on a village wide basis who get to America and adjust and thrive. It is because they are not afraid to work hard. It unmasks the LIES the liberals are telling, the bigotry of soft expectations that says, "oh you are black and from the inner city, you cannot succeed without the government giving you something."
Dabney at May 14, 2009 7:12 AM
>>It is rather the uneducated orphan who has a language barrier and who learns everything and becomes successful despite being black who makes them so angry!
Don't be so silly, Dabney.
In your one sentence (above) about "the liberals" you've offered an observation and a conclusion that are equally, pointlessly idiotic.
Jody Tresidder at May 14, 2009 7:45 AM
Rich Rostrom,
I just knew that some neo-Confederate would show up to repeat the garbage claims about blacks in the Confederate army. The fact (as verified by numerous historians who have examined Confederate army records) is that blacks were not allowed in the Confederate army.
Got anything to back up those assertions Mr. Big Keyboard? My friend (full disclosure, blogging partner) posted information. If it is a "well established fact" you should be able to come up with something.
First article that comes up for black confederate site:.mil on Google is this:
In February 1865, the Confederate Congress, after months of stalling, passed an act allowing black enlistments. Immediately, Virginia started enlisting slaves to fight for the Confederacy.
More from that article:
And the Confederacy followed the edicts of Richmond somewhat less-well than their counterparts in the Union, with numerous units enlisting Black soldiers, which is well documented.
Speaking the truth does not constitute "neo-Confederate", but the accusation certainly must come from a bigot.
Amy,
Side note. In the book you and Tamy Bruce are leading the Women's Empowerism Movement in the early 2030's.
John Tagliaferro at May 14, 2009 7:50 AM
"It is rather the uneducated orphan who has a language barrier and who learns everything and becomes successful despite being black who makes them so angry!"
No, what makes me angry is how whites routinely use isolated cases of black success to prove that there is no racism.
It's like saying, "Look at the success of Elton John, or Ellen...see, there's no gay discrimination." We all know that's untrue.
Racists use examples like Oprah, Obama, or "Somali immigrants" (?) in the same manner - to deny racism. Nevermind that, from a purely statistical perspective, there will of course be some successful blacks, and nevermind that they probably had to work, and kiss ass, much harder than you or I to get there.
They call it the "black tax". Everything they do has to be perfect compared to a white. They have to work longer hours and prove themselves "worthy" of success within the white establishment.
And, frankly, it doesn't hurt if they're lighter-skinned either. You rarely see a dark-skinned black in a position of power and authority in this country. Whites can't seem to deal with that yet.
But minimizing the racism by hand-picking a few successful examples, or by comparing blacks to Asian, Russians, or Indians makes me angry. Those groups no longer experience the same sort of pure racism that exists out there against blacks.
And besides, groups like Asians, Cubans, and Indians DO help their own and mainly frequent their own businesses. But that's ok because they're shopping for ethnic food? Like blacks can't shop for soul food, or prefer to shop in a black-owned market, where they won't automatically be viewed as potential thieves when they walk through the door?
I am very surprised, but it really seems like the main objection to this is because these people are black, and they had the nerve to say they are going to do what almost every other ethnic groups has already done to help their own succeed in this country.
lovelysoul at May 14, 2009 7:52 AM
I think voting with your wallet is fine. As long as the reason for your vote isn't, you know, racist.
NoDough at May 14, 2009 8:05 AM
Inasmuch as it is possible we seek to live in a post racial world. We do not let the racism of others create or justify racism within us.
First of all, terrific post, Dabney, and this is exactly how I think.
Regarding this by Nicole K:
"I think Dave Dial was accusing her of a "noblesse oblige" attitude about "saving the poor, disadvantaged negro". When I read the post, the implication was that Dave thinks she is being patronizing. That is how I read it.
Personally, I think teaching black kids the how of being successful is a great idea. I hope she warns them about credit cards while she's in there.
Actually, this is something I wish Amy would post more about. She alludes to it often, but what is a typical speech/lesson plan like?"
Will try to do that one of these days.
And regarding Dave's implication that I'm patronizing about "saving the poor, disadvantaged Negro," I'm talking to kids of all colors there, mainly black and Latino, and the reason I talk to them is that they come from backgrounds where they don't have role models. Dave Dial has to attack it because it doesn't fit with the idea that I am racist. I Googled him and I really think he just goes around looking for posts on racism to spout off on. Me? I see a problem and instead of just spouting off about it, I do something about it. I like to mention it when people accuse me of being racist, as it's kind of odd, a racist who donates her time at an inner city high school.
Also, if anybody here is a from a foundation that funds programs like this -- please e-mail me. Google is taking forever; they were supposed to decide March 27, and there's been nothing. I told the lady from Boys & Girls Clubs of America that I'd try to get it funded elsewhere if Google doesn't bite. It's a really good program, well-thought-out, and again, involves having people from all kinds of jobs (but no movie stars or other famous people) -- jobs that require a college education and jobs, like pastry chef or business owner, that do not -- go into schools every three months, from the earliest grades on, and talk to kids. There's a message about not becoming pregnant as teens, and there are messages like Nicole K talked about about living sensibly -- in a way that it doesn't suck you down financially. (I specifically tell the high school kids not to go for the money jobs, but the mentors, right out of high school, and sleep on somebody's floor if they have to, and not to buy a lot of fancy electronics and a fancy car, because they need to invest in their careers). Among other things.
Amy Alkon at May 14, 2009 8:05 AM
No, what makes me angry is how whites routinely use isolated cases of black success to prove that there is no racism.
No, what makes me angry is how BLACKS routinely use isolated cases of WHITE success to prove that there IS racism.
FYI noone has said there is no racism, just thar therec is no instational racism, and people who arent white are just as capable of racism
lujlp at May 14, 2009 9:03 AM
...soul food....
I find amusing this northern white belief that fried chicken, chitlins, fried okra, corn bread, etc. is black food.
Poor whites in the South grew up eating that same food. When you were poor (or struggling) you sold the good parts of the pig and ate what was left (pig's feet, ham hocks, etc.).
You raised chickens 'cause they were inexpensive to raise and keep and provided a ready source of proteins (eggs and meat).
Once dipped in flour and fried, chicken could be kept for several days without refrigeration (handy in an era when refrigerators were a luxury). In addition, it traveled well, making it a good choice for a brown bag lunch.
Conan the Grammarian at May 14, 2009 9:04 AM
And the Confederacy followed the edicts of Richmond somewhat less-well than their counterparts in the Union....
Because the Confederate States of America was a confederacy and not a federal republic (like the USA), the states were not required to follow the edicts of Richmond.
The original colonies attempted to form a confederate government in 1781 (first president, John Hanson) but failed. The Articles of Confederation were not a very good basis for a functional government and were scrapped in 1788 in favor of the Constitution.
The Southern states refused to learn from that lesson and repeated the mistake in 1861.
Conan the Grammarian at May 14, 2009 9:13 AM
ISOLATED cases of white success?
Blacks earn 10 cents to every dollar whites earn. That's not isolated white success. Whites are by far the most successful group in this country.
No, there isn't institutional racism any longer, but that doesn't mean that blacks don't face a steep uphill climb, especially when owning businesses. And one of the problems is that they haven't had a long enough period of success to establish the kind of helpful social and business networks that other groups have - to develop enough successful members to provide mentoring and support to entrepeneurs.
I was just researching insurance for my accommodations, and I found "Indian hotel/motel associations" and "Asian hotel/motel associations". They're pooling their ethnic group buying power to afford lower insurance and benefits on other services.
You can say that's "racist", but it's also a very smart business tactic. Blacks are simply at a disadvantage because no one fills them in on these hidden little business networks. This is how other ethnic groups do it, and have been doing it for decades. It's not new at all. They've just been quieter about it.
Yet, now that blacks are catching on and trying to support their own businesses, it's somehow considered more racist than anything an Asian, Indian, hispanic, or Jewish group might do. I think that's because whites feel more directly excluded when blacks organize themselves. Blacks have been dependent on whites - and white-owned businesses - for so long that it's like, "How dare you? How ungrateful and separatist of you not to be colorblind in your business choices!"
lovelysoul at May 14, 2009 9:42 AM
If a few people want to drive 14 miles for groceries or suffer with an illness rather than go to a nearby drug store, I don't care. My guess is that most black people will patronize the nearby stores as long as they are treated well.
If gays patronize a gay run enterprise because they know that they will not face discrimination, more power to them. Same for ethnic minorities.
"Lastly on this subject: I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'd bet that most if not all of these remarkable immigrant friends you've cited arrived with a. a college education b. ambition instilled by educated parents or 3. a net of established relatives to land in."
My bet is that "b. ambition instilled by educated parents" is the defining reason. If the culture values education and hard work, the children tend to do well.
Steamer at May 14, 2009 9:44 AM
"Blacks earn 10 cents to every dollar whites earn."
Stats can be meaningful or not. Bill Gates and I average a couple of billion a year in income, but for some reason, there is an 8 year old Taurus in my parking spot.
This is like the "women earn 68 cents to every dollar men earn" stat you keeps cropping up.
When you throw out a stat like that, the implication is that discrimination is the cause. Could education and culture have anything to do with it?
Steamer at May 14, 2009 9:54 AM
"Could education and culture have anything to do with it?"
Of course. That's why we should applaud, not deride, their efforts to become more successful.
Not every ethnic group is academically talented. But that doesn't matter in business. Many of the world's greatest entrepeneurs never finished high school or went to college.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable idea for blacks to try to support black-owned businesses because, honestly, whites are not going to go out of their way - driving into black communities - to do it. Whites will only really support black businesses that come to them - that manage to set up in their neighborhoods, which is cost-prohibitive in many white areas.
If a black business is down the street of a big, muti-ethnic city, fine. But whites, in large numbers, are not going to make an effort to support black entrepeneurship by actually voting for it with their dollar.
This is one area where blacks need to help themselves, which is what we're always suggesting here, so it's kind of strange that the idea is so unpopular.
lovelysoul at May 14, 2009 10:16 AM
The late, great Senator from New York, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, wrote Beyond The Melting Pot back in the late 60s when he was a professor of Sociology at Harvard. It was a study of six(?) ethnic groups in New York City and how they adapted to life in America. It included the Irish, Puerto Ricans, Blacks, Jews and Italians. One of his key findings (as I remember from reading this forty years ago) was that more cohesive groups tended to shop "their own" when possible and was positively correlated to the success of their groups. Again, as I remember, Jews were the most cohesive and Blacks the least. Was it as important as attitudes toward education? No. But still important.
It is amazing to me that in LA, so many of the retail stores in black areas are run by other minorities. The entrepreneurial spirit needs to be encouraged.
searchr at May 14, 2009 10:19 AM
Blacks earn 10 cents to every dollar whites earn.
Not Blacks with the same education, time in the workforce and same occupation.
Go back and look up the work Dr. Thomas Sowell did in the early 1980s. What you say now was not true then either.
John Tagliaferro at May 14, 2009 10:31 AM
...they've had to work twice as hard as whites...
I always wonder about this... How do they know?
How does anyone know how hard someone else worked? How can you measure that? How can you know? And how does that explain those of the "proper" race and gender who work hard, maybe even twice as hard, and fail anyway?
Sure, I know a young man who seems to be living a gifted life... in his 20's and already wealthy... excessively bright fellow, too. Single... that helps with funds. Comes into work at 5AM so he can work a whole day and then go to a second occupation and works another whole day. OMG... turns out he works TWICE as hard.
Back when I was in the Air Force we all understood that in order to do well as enlisted, as a career, we needed additional elements on our evaluations... additional schooling and degrees, or community involvement. We had to work TWICE as hard. It wasn't enough to *just* be excellent at our jobs, we needed to stand out above the others. And I recall an older gentleman who was complaining about that... and he was right, the expectations for promotion were wacked... but what it wasn't was about his *race*, which he seemed to think it was.
The rules really were the same for everyone, and everyone really did have to work twice as hard to get ahead of those who didn't work twice as hard.
Synova at May 14, 2009 10:38 AM
Not every ethnic group is academically talented.
OMG, you did NOT just say that some ethnic groups have less academic *talent*.
Synova at May 14, 2009 10:39 AM
But whites, in large numbers, are not going to make an effort to support black entrepeneurship by actually voting for it with their dollar.
But they're not going to avoid it either if it sells what they need and is convenient.
The entrepreneurial spirit needs to be encouraged.
Immigrant groups have to ways to integrate themselves into the social network of America.
The first way is economic. Most European and Asian immigrant groups have followed this pattern. Start businesses and patronize your group's businesses whenver possible to build wealth and a business network. Then, use the economic success to build political and social power.
The other path is political involvement. The Irish followed this pattern and found themselves a large blue-collar ethnic group. They served in great numbers in police forces, fire departments, the military, city services, and low-level political appointments. But they found they had very little real political power. Until there were enough Irish with actual money (from economic success) to support a an Irishman in a run for high-level political office, they were just foot soldiers.
African-Americans have been following the Irish model, trying to establish political power and use that to build economic power. That has not worked in the past and won't work now.
To help them build true economic power, fostering entrepreneurial endeavors in the African-American community should be encouraged. If blacks shopping at black-owned local businesses whenever practical will help do that, then maybe it's not entirely a bad thing.
It will have a price, however. The reasons early Jewish and Asian immigrants shopped at ethnically-owned stores were that they couldn't get certain products at mainstream stores (ethnic food, ethnic hair- and skin-care products, etc.) and that those stores were usually the only local stores.
With the proliferation of chain stores and the diversity of products offered by today's stores, that's not as true as it used to be.
Conan the Grammarian at May 14, 2009 10:41 AM
"It's like, my people have been here 400 years and we don't even have a Walgreens to show for it."
And what, exactly, has stopped "their people" from opening a Walgreens? How do you even find out if the owner of a business is white or black? I have no idea what race any of the owners of the businesses I frequent are...and I really don't care as long as they provide a good product. Furthermore, what race is the CEO of Walgreens? Just askin'
I mean, "your people" have have been here 400 years and you still haven't gotten over yourself...so I guess some things take time.
I am sick and tired of all this garbage. Articles like this just foster more racism. Who cares? Really, I don't give a rat's ass where you shop or what color you are. I care that you're a racist. Like someone said above: choosing a business based on the race of the owner makes you a racist...no matter what race you are. You KNOW I'd be the second coming of Satan if I ever wrote an article about only patronizing white owned businesses. Hell, there are probably people thinking I'm a racist right now. That's fine. I see my community as the people and businesses my area, regardless of race. Am I crazy for thinking all americans are "my people"?
Kim at May 14, 2009 10:50 AM
Not sure you can find out how many are white, but I'm betting almost all, if not all. And clearly primarily male:
Walgreens Board of Directors:
http://investor.walgreens.com/directors.cfm
Walgreens may not actually be the kind of business with individually-owned stores. It looks to me like they're corporate owned.
lovelysoul at May 14, 2009 11:02 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/13/do_you_support.html#comment-1648513">comment from KimAm I crazy for thinking all americans are "my people"?
Crazy like me. Let's have more of that sort of thing, shall we?
Amy Alkon at May 14, 2009 11:47 AM
Hypocrisy. My favorite is the "Black United Way" vs. the generic United Way in Philadelphia. Whites are supposed to contribute to both; blacks may choose but are supposed to keep their money in the "community." But only blacks get grants from the Black United Way. Whites need not apply.
zooman at May 14, 2009 1:41 PM
No one has ever asked me to contribute to -either- United Way, and I've been here two years now! I feel so overlooked...
At least the Chief of Police, Fraternal order of the Police, Fireman's Association, and Veterans love me... they call constantly.
Nicole at May 14, 2009 2:45 PM
I was taught that hating someone because they looked different was wrong. That I was to treat others like how I would be treated. Anything else is the behavior of vermin.
Brunsfighter at May 14, 2009 3:04 PM
I buy what I like, what I need and what I can afford, given a choice. If I don't like the way certain race or ethnic people behaved towards me, it is my prerogative to avoid them, as much as possible, regardless what race or ethnic background they are.
WLIL at May 15, 2009 12:00 AM
http://www.1010wins.com/Ex-Student-Says-NJ-Medical-School-Discriminated/4374417
"Ex-Student Says NJ Medical School Discriminated Against Him"
"MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. (AP) -- A former student claims in a lawsuit that the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey discriminated against him for the way he described his background in classroom discussions on cultural diversity.
Paulo Serodio said that in 2006, he told a professor and classmates that he was "white, African, American,'' which he says accurately reflects the fact that he was born in Mozambique but later became a U.S. citizen.
He said some classmates and staff members at New Jersey Medical School found it offensive that a Caucasian man would call himself "African-American'' and that the fallout led to harassment and eventually his suspension from the school.
Serodio, who lives in Newark, said some school employees and students told him not to describe himself as ``African-American.'' In the aftermath of his comments, Serodio said, flyers were hung around the school mocking him, he was assaulted and his car was vandalized.
His lawyer, Gregg Zeff, said Serodio eventually was suspended for ``conduct unbecoming'' a student.
The suspension came directly from his remarks in class, Zeff said.
Serodio filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Newark on Monday. He is seeking damages from the university and several faculty members and administrators." . . .
Read the full story at the link.
Jay J. Hector at May 15, 2009 12:25 PM
I know a black man who describes one of his white friends as a "fellow African-American." Both men were born in South Africa, emigrated to the US, and became citizens.
Conan the Grammarian at May 15, 2009 2:33 PM
Spend your money as you like but please, if the only thing you can talk about is skin color, shut up.
You're boring the hell out of me.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at May 16, 2009 8:12 PM
Kill whitey
Bob at May 20, 2009 10:21 AM
"Two words: Barack. Obama.
Precisely. Sewage is going to hit the compressor when one day black Americans are going to wake up and realize that having this white boy who decided to become black when he was in college in the white house may have given them hope, but there's no change. Change doesn't come from someone else. You gotta do it yourself."
Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? This black couple and others are trying to urge black people to...do it for ourselves. What's wrong with that?
Plantsmantx at May 20, 2009 4:59 PM
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