There's a buttload of money to be made out of people's anxieties, and parents are an easy target on this one. Some of us want our children to succeed. Yes, there are those who don't give a thought about their kids' futures, and such ilk are often dissected in this forum. Some sloppy parents think there's a magic bullet out there besides the rolling up of sleeves and teaching kids about actual work ethic.

"There's a buttload of money to be made out of people's anxieties, and parents are an easy target on this one."

And the reason so many people are "easy targets" is because the majority of people have very poorly developed abilities to think for themselves plus think rationally and sensibly plus have confidence in guidance by well-developed rational thinking capabilities. This is why moms get swept up in whatever pseudo-cultish "fad of the day" happens to be either engineered deliberately by corporations or is generated by semi-random societal trends; they just let themselves get swished along like floats in ocean tides in whatever direction the tides take them. If you were able to wake up and think for yourself about what makes sense rationally, with a bigger-picture perspective and studying actual facts and statistics, and not worry too much about the 'peer pressure' from everyone around you, then we wouldn't have this problem.

And the problem is, parents who don't think, will generally raise children who also don't think. If you want intelligent, thinking, hardworking children, the most reliable way to do that is to basically work to have those qualities in yourself.

Peer pressure isn't just a problem for teens, as is commonly mistakenly thought; adults are almost as bad in this regard. In fact, adults who weren't so easily subject to peer pressure would generally raise teens who weren't either.

I'd never heard of 'Baby Einstein' videos, but Wikipedia points this out:

"In August 2007, researchers at the University of Washington published a study which found that the use of Baby Einstein DVDs/videos correlates to smaller vocabularies in children 6 to 18 months old."

Of course, that could mean that stupid people are just more likely to buy these things, but I don't know, I've been raised on the idea that a TV screen has basically no educational value.

I didn't have any play breasts and I wasn't fed dates, either! Damn.

"Of course, that could mean that stupid people are just more likely to buy these things, but I don't know, I've been raised on the idea that a TV screen has basically no educational value."

I'll second, and expand on that, by pointing out that the calculator and computer are impediments to thinking, not aids, until their use as a tool is second-nature; but many organizations have what I call, "gee-whiz disease" and buy the idea that automation and pretty screens mean advancement for all.

Years ago in the Navy I trained electricians as part of my normal duties. A short discussion about diverting efforts away from understanding the problem to working the calculator or computer was usually enough to show the student where and when to apply some "gray matter", as opposed to silicon.

You might notice today that it's easier to get people fired up about "1 part in a trillion" than "1 part in a billion", even though the latter figure is a thousand times larger. It's because people don't seek understanding - they want answers.

We're expecting a baby in November, and I do have some of the "What if I fuck my kid up?" anxiety going on. I think it's easy for me to see things other parents do, and make a mental note that I won't be doing that, but I don't exactly have a plan. I looked at a bunch of parenting books on Amazon the other day, then got overwhelmed, then decided that having a parenting "system" wasn't necessarily something I needed to do.

I don't plan on letting my (very young) child watch TV when it's little, anyhow, even if the program is "educational." I felt that way even before studies started coming about about the possibility of detrimental effects on attention span developement, etc. for early TV watching. People are slaves to marketing. You could put out a great marketing campaign that claims that urine is the most nutritious thing you can drink, and you'd end up with a group of idiots drinking expensive bottles of piss (and telling you why you should, too.)

I LOVE when people say they won't let their children watch TV. We said it too. 5 Years later, I can tell you every character and sing every song that has ever been associated with Spongebob Squarepants. Or Growing Up Creepy. Or Scooby Doo...

The women who still get me hot look like Barbara Eden or Dawn Wells, probably because I grew up watching Gilligan's Island or I Dream Of Jeanie every day.

I'd be willing to bet that one reason those videos correlate with underdeveloped vocab skills is because too many parents are relying on the videos to educate and stimulate their children instead of doing so themselves. Babies respond to and learn from human interaction that can't be duplicated by a picture on a screen. It may not be the Einstein videos specifically so much as the fact that parents are letting TV do the work for them.

AHW- I've said it before in these chats, so apologize to everyone else for the redundancy. The only book that made much sense was Parenting With Love And Logic. The book in a nutshell- unless your child is in imminent danger of severe harm, let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

They're going to fall a few times when they learn to ride their bike. They're going to have their feelings hurt by people at school. They're going to get bad grades if they don't do their homework or wake up on time for school. Let their embarrassing photos get printed in the yearbook. Let them see that for themselves, don't kill yourself trying to help them "bridge the gap", or they're never going to learn independence or take pride in their own achievements.

Another good one is Gavin DeBecker's Protecting the Gift, about how to raise a confident child rather than being a helicopter parent.

> I'd never heard of 'Baby Einstein'
> videos

Same here. And not knowing? Those were the fifty happiest years of my life!

Listen, sometimes people buy stupid things for kids. But they're just unholy, they're not evil.

We're expecting a baby in November, and I do have some of the "What if I fuck my kid up?" anxiety going on. I think it's easy for me to see things other parents do, and make a mental note that I won't be doing that, but I don't exactly have a plan. I looked at a bunch of parenting books on Amazon the other day, then got overwhelmed, then decided that having a parenting "system" wasn't necessarily something I needed to do.

Those are precisely the wrong books.

Here's the books my mother had -

Winnie The Pooh (and it's follow ons)
The Cat in the Hat (etc. that one's my dad's favorite).

Other REAL books, not the shit that's marketed as "children's literature" today.

Read to the kid. And let the kid learn to read. If you get any shit from a "teacher" about how teaching your child to read at home is messing up her curriculum, use my favorite phrase on her: "Fuck off."

You want your kid to be smart, let him/her drown themselves in books. Having decent music doesn't hurt either. I don't have any studies that will prove it, but I'd be willing to believe that listening to complex stuff like Bach and Beethoven causes the brain to wire itself up better than listening to random droning sluts on the FM dial.

Hey daddy-o Brian: Should parents insure their kid's health?

Just curious.

My kids like classical music. It wasn't forced on them, I just find it relaxing, and now so do they. They've also watched plenty of TV in their 5 years to no detriment, but I never kidded myself it was a learning tool. It was downtime. We don't do TV with ads. Mostly because they're annoying. We love the Jack Hanna series-animals are always fun.

The woman who started baby einstein sold it to disney for something like $100 million. Nice profit margin on something started in a basement with fingerpuppets.

Just throwing this out there on a wing and a prayer:

When I was growing up (early 70's, though I think the books were post-WW2), there was a whole series of books about a team of SCUBA divers, and they'd go all over the world salvaging ships and fighting off pirates. The books were blue cloth hardbound, and I am pretty sure the main character was named Pedro. I was memerized for years by those books, and would love to find same for my little boy. Anyone have any clue?

Here is also a really cool website I just discovered:

http://rulesformyunbornson.tumblr.com/page/1

> Anyone have any clue?

No clue, but I remember these guys and a guy in NYC who played with a Spaldeen, though his actual name doesn't come to mind just now.

Hey daddy-o Brian: Should parents insure their kid's health? Just curious.

I've got an idea. Why don't you go fuck yourself with sixteen feet of curare-tipped wrought iron?

You manage to work your little hard-on over insurance into every thread. Stuff it. It isn't interesting.

Also, I especially like 369, 368*, 362, 360, 354, 335, 334, 325*, 313, 310*, 301, 298, 270. 269, 262, 257, 249*, 245, 232, 227, 223 (scuba), 216*, 188*, 178, 168, 166 (Former Swinger™ owner),156, 144, 137*, 105, 99, 93, 81, 51, 5, and 2.

* Especially good!

(78 is too obvious for inclusion.)

Aw Brian, don't be so touchy! You have strong ideas about raising kids! We want to know more about them!

We want to know more about them!

No, you want to drag your pet bullshit into this thread and make it all about me.

Not gonna happen.

Aw, come on! A childless, uninsured motorcyclist knows how to raise kids to be smart! That's interesting!

>> I've got an idea. Why don't you go fuck yourself with sixteen feet of curare-tipped wrought iron?

Who read you Winnie the Pooh- Joe Pesci?

I'm a guy from NYC who played with a Spaldeen. An incredibly versatile object: good for punchball, stickball, slapball, socie, handball, stoop ball, three-box baseball, and just a plain catch.

K, do you remember any golden-childhood memoirs from the 60's or 70's?

NYC ones, I mean

Can't say I do. And thinking about it, I don't think I've ever read a novel that felt like my childhood in Brooklyn. Then again, it was an Orthodox Jewish childhood, and most novelists aren't. But just the feel of life then; I can't remember seeing it.

"Babies respond to and learn from human interaction that can't be duplicated by a picture on a screen. It may not be the Einstein videos specifically so much as the fact that parents are letting TV do the work for them."

I watched some Baby Einstein videos on YouTube, and quickly came to the conclusion that they aren't educational videos - they are pure "entertainment for babies", that's all. 10 or 20 minutes a day is very unlikely to harm a baby (to calm him/her or take a break), as long as you're doing other activities that are educational, but the problem probably stems from the marketing angle (even the name) that gives the impression that these videos are educational. What a lovely enticing idea ... give your infant easy hypnotic entertainment to keep it glued to the screen and quietened, and get to do it guilt-free thinking you're educating the baby. Let the kid watch this for hours, or let it act as a substitute for real education, and you have a problem. But it only takes common sense to see that.

"I LOVE when people say they won't let their children watch TV. We said it too. 5 Years later, I can tell you every character and sing every song that has ever been associated with Spongebob Squarepants. Or Growing Up Creepy. Or Scooby Doo"

So you're assuming everyone who says that, ends up doing it anyway? Let me tell you, it's a lot easier when you don't even have a TV in the house, and when your own ideas of passing the time involve intellectual activities like reading books. Generally, parents who watch TV themselves will raise TV watchers, parents who read books will raise book readers, parents who do some of both will raise kids who do some of both.

One of the best things you can do to raise educated kids is: (a) have lots of books in the house (and preferably not just stupid novel-of-the-day), (b) don't have too many other inane distractions like toys or videos or TV, (c) read a lot yourself, so your kids just mimic you naturally. Leave your kids to their own devices and eventually they'll also get bored enough to pick out books from the shelf and start reading.

AHW -- I second and third what Mouse and others have said. Have lots of books around the house. Read them to your kids. Let them see you reading to yourself. Gradually teach them how to read as soon as they're able to pick up on the concepts. I think you'll find that the TV-or-not-TV question isn't so important if the children are into books (my two youngest are voracious readers, and would much prefer a trip to a book store over a trip to a toy store).

Oh, and AHW, while every parent, new ones especially, worries about screwing up, I wouldn't dwell on it too much. Babies are pretty resiliant, actually.

"A childless, uninsured motorcyclist knows how to raise kids to be smart!"

*Sigh* ... I personally can't stand the tired old "someone without kids can't possibly have anything valid to say about raising kids". It's a logical fallacy, and means absolutely nothing - sorry. Anyone with the right biological equipment can pop out a baby, it has no correlation with your capabilities as a parent ... people who are raised well are likely to be capable of being far better parents than average even if they haven't had kids yet, and there are plenty of absolutely lousy parents. If you want to criticize the actual message, go ahead, but "oh somebody without kids talking about how to raise kids, that's rich!" isn't any sort of rational argument at all.

> the tired old "someone without
> kids can't possibly...

As rule I agree with you, but when someone who's prideful of isolation and irresponsibility starts telling us how families are to be nourished, the target is irresistible. This particular fellow has been saying presumptuous things for years, giving us a hard-drives' worth of blog chatter. You can't really pluck a single comment and imagine you're considering the whole 'argument', rational or otherwise.

People earn reputations. We do rounds of discussion here that have been going on for a very long time. When new kids show up, it's often a disappointment to wait for them to get up to speed: "Um, dood, we answered your argument years ago, before the Tsunami...."

Again, you're right on the central point. Everyone who's been a kid knows something about raising one. And for most children's issues, I (childless) will surrender my claim to comment on the day that my resources (and patience) aren't taxed to benefit children so specifically.

PS-

> *Sigh*

(Urp.)

but when someone who's prideful of isolation and irresponsibility starts telling us how families are to be nourished, the target is irresistible.

Says the man with the failed marriage whose sole concern whenever there's a divorce thread is "I only want people to marry well".

The only one who's prideful here is you, Crid.

Well, meee-yowwwww!

(but that was mostly about kids, anyway)

We have several friends whose kids didn't watch TV for the first couple of years... and we don't watch TV just for entertainment, anyway. (Yes, we watch it sometimes: news, weather, some history channel, and the F1 races.) Anyhow, once it's over two, I think Mr. Rogers, Sesame Street, Mary Poppins, and the like are fine... but I'm not going to let Dora the Explorer take over my house, just like I'm not going to have a plastic playground in my front yard.

"Who read you Winnie the Pooh- Joe Pesci?"

Haha, funniest comment I've read this week!!

BTW, the way things are going, you'd probably have to dig out those SCUBA (Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus, by George, she's got it!) books from the landfill. The newest "protect the children" act has made any of them illegal, as a child may chew up, like 15 pages in a sitting and digest a microgram of lead. Amy the host has written about this latest BS numerous times, as has a guy named Olson who writes on www.overlawyered.com.

I'm in Idaho. Federal laws don't apply.

"I'm in Idaho. Federal laws don't apply."

I hear you can own a full-auto spud gun there without a permit.

I'd like an egg salad launcher myself.

For that, all you need is a plastic spoon.

But this site works. http://thisgirlgetslaid.com