The Black Princess Who Isn't Black Enough
Disney is coming out with a black princess, and the critics are coming out, too -- and we're not talking the professional kind. The question was asked (in a NYT article) whether she vanquishes stereotypes of promotes them. Um...can't she be just a cartoon princess with more cartoon melanin in her skin?
Apparently not. Here's an excerpt from one of the comments:
Though it's nice to see a Black Disney character, it would be nice for those of us of a darker hue and curlier hair to see more of ourselves represented in mainstream media.
-- marieizm, Mount Vernon, NY
You know, redheads aren't often "represented" in mainstream media -- or anywhere. Should I be up in arms?
Brooks Barnes writes about the black princess controversy in the NYT:
After viewing some photographs of merchandise tied to the movie, which is still unfinished, Black Voices, a Web site on AOL dedicated to African-American culture, faulted the prince's relatively light skin color. Prince Naveen hails from the fictional land of Maldonia and is voiced by a Brazilian actor; Disney says that he is not white."Disney obviously doesn't think a black man is worthy of the title of prince," Angela Bronner Helm wrote March 19 on the site. "His hair and features are decidedly non-black. This has left many in the community shaking their head in befuddlement and even rage."
Others see insensitivity in the locale.
"Disney should be ashamed," William Blackburn, a former columnist at The Charlotte Observer, told London's Daily Telegraph. "This princess story is set in New Orleans, the setting of one of the most devastating tragedies to beset a black community."
ALSO under scrutiny is Ray the firefly, performed by Jim Cummings (the voice of Winnie the Pooh and Yosemite Sam). Some people think Ray sounds too much like the stereotype of an uneducated Southerner in an early trailer.
Of course, armchair critics have also been complaining about the princess. Disney originally called her Maddy (short for Madeleine). Too much like Mammy and thus racist. A rumor surfaced on the Internet that an early script called for her to be a chambermaid to a white woman, a historically correct profession. Too much like slavery.
And wait: We finally get a black princess and she spends the majority of her time on screen as a frog?
The first comment under the article said what I'm thinking about the race issue and the princess issue (I've written about how damaging I think princess culture is to girls -- the idea that some man will eventually "save" you if you just sit around waiting for him; no need to do any of that messy developing yourself stuff). Here's that comment:
No one assumes all white girls are like Snow White or Cinderella (and by the way, Esmerelda in Disney's Hunchback didn't look very white). Why must a black character have to represent the whole race? I do wonder why the Disney writers are so lacking in imagination that they jumped to a modern-sounding name after Madeleine didn't work out. Why not Marie? Marielle? Isabelle? Genevieve? But a Disney movie isn't the place to go for historical accuracy.Regarding a prince, Djimon Hounsou could be my prince any day, but back to the film. People can take their children to see it, or not. The bottom line is the very tired princess myth, packaged in a new wrapper, that teaches little girls that their worth depends on someone else. And the millions of dollars that Disney will make on the merchandise.
When my daughter was 3, she was an Ariel fan. At 18, she says the Disney villainesses have more character dimension than the princesses do. Ultimately, a Disney movie is not going to significantly impact anyone's world view. That's why we read, watch the news, have family discussions.
-- jh, johannesburg, south africa
You can never mollify that contingent whose real occupation is racial umbrage and discontent. When you meet them socially, politely dismiss yourself from the conversation and move on. When you meet them professionally, treat them with every courtesy, give them not one bit of leverage against anything you care about, and get away from them as fast as you can.
And when you hear them agitate in public for policies based on race, after they are done speak calmly and quietly against the view that people should be treated differently on the basis of race...any race.
Spartee at May 31, 2009 8:30 AM
It's harder to draw someone with darker skin... if you notice, the cartoon versions of the bratz dolls are lighter than the dolls. It's harder to do details on the darker skin. I've noticed this convention before... cartoon versions of people are slightly darker than RL versions. I've also noticed it in "The Sims" game, the "Dark" skin isn't sub-saharan black. There are a few custom content black skins, but the creators even pointed out how hard it was.
NicoleK at May 31, 2009 8:57 AM
I don't understand the problem with basing the story in New Orleans. Should we never base a story in a place where a tragedy has happened? In that case, all the L&O shows should have been yanked after 9/11. Not to mention the nastiness of the idea that Katrina impacted only black people.
MonicaP at May 31, 2009 8:57 AM
She looks just like Dorothy Dandridge...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Dandridge
Eric at May 31, 2009 9:05 AM
They were just stupid to take this on, because there is NO way that they would ever measure up.
As for the princess of disney... the modern ones since Ariel have been much different. It's how parents reflect the idea of being a princess that causes the problem. The modern princesses have to come through adversity and so forth. But they still end up happy ever after.
But. As mentioned little girls can get beyond that if you allow them. My 9 year old is now enamoured with various Miyasaki anime women... Like Sophie from Howl's Moving Castle.
They still get to be happy, but in a much more difficult way... kinda the way life is. The Princess she is most interested in now is Princess Mononoke, although that one is a bit violent...
SwissArmyD at May 31, 2009 9:12 AM
I love the outcry about the whole "Not Black Enough" thing.
One day, someone should explain to us, in concrete terms what would be a character who is "Black Enough". Do the average Gangsta-Rapper out there is too black? Do Condi Rice is not enough?
He's a problem I see in the black-American community; they are unable to definite themselves outside of a racial context. Some chose to go in a "Pan-Africanism" mythical stance while other chose to tend to integrate themselves into mainstream. We have yet to see the Black community, as a block, rise and say "This is what we are".
This is why we will hear so much about this movie. The Disney Corporation will put a face and an attitude over a Black Princess and create a new standard. Since Disney is such a presence in the American mainsream culture, that standard will stay there for a long time. Let's remember Pocahontas. That movie was also seen as "Blasphemous" by the most of the purists in the Native Community, yet it went on as a definition of Pocahontas that will never be forgiven.
Here's what we can expect from this movie: a section of the "Black" critics will call it anything but a "Coon Show" because it will shows some stereotypical attitudes (Remembers me Alladin Vs. CAIR). Another segment of the "Black" purists will call it an abobination since it will reflect as an "Oreo", Black with White values.
Until Blacks in America chose who they are, we will hear that crap over and over again...
Toubrouk at May 31, 2009 9:26 AM
Ahem. Only the professional victim could find a slight in being excluded or misrepresented in a fairy tale.
Apparently, the President is not black enough for these people.
Radwaste at May 31, 2009 9:27 AM
jh, of Johannesburg says: "Ultimately, a Disney movie is not going to significantly impact anyone's world view. That's why we read, watch the news, have family discussions."
A Disney movie *is so* going to impact someone's world view! Reading, news, and family discussions can blunt or divert the impact, but stories of all kinds have been impacting the world views of children ever since this species (or its ancestral one) acquired language. It's the way we shape culture. And Disney has been *the* quintessential storyteller for 20th-21st Century children.
Axman at May 31, 2009 9:45 AM
Ariel was a redhead, wasn't she?
I too am sick to death of the Disney Princess phenomenon. Fortunately, my daughter will not want to see this, since she's moved on to Hannah Montana and shit like that.
Karen at May 31, 2009 10:10 AM
You all know that Cleopatra was really a black woman, right?
Actually, though there are many mysteries about Cleopatra, her race isn't one of them. She was as white as white can be, born in Macedonia in northern Greece to Macedonian parents. But the "Cleopatra was a black woman, who was painted white by racist western historians" meme has been pushed so aggressively by Afrocentric intellectuals in academia that millions of people believe it. I've had educated people react to me as if I was a Nazi trying to convince them that Aryans were the Master Race when I tried to tell them that there's no evidence Cleopatra was anything but white.
There's an inferiority complex 5 miles deep behind all this Black Pride posturing & shouting. The irony is that there was a whole dynasty of black Nubian Pharaohs who ruled all of Egypt, and Israel besides, in the 8th & 7th centuries BC. They did great things, but nowadays no one's ever heard of Piye, Shabaka & Taharqa. On the other hand, everyone on earth knows about Cleopatra. So since the history & accomplishments of genuine black people are not good enough for the Afrocentric crowd, they have to steal someone else's.
Trying to reason with people who have such deep psychological complexes is hopeless.
Martin at May 31, 2009 10:33 AM
>> Miyasaki anime women... Like Sophie from Howl's Moving CaStle
Miyasaki's movies are incredible. Howl's is my all time favorite.
Eric at May 31, 2009 11:29 AM
Here's another (more nuanced?) view of this, from a blogger I think you'd be interested in.
http://actingwhite.blogspot.com/2009/03/acting-white-disneys-black-princess.html
Regarding redheads, I am hopeful you would like to know that redheads rule in the T&A links at FARK.com (foobies.com) and are probably over represented.
jerry at May 31, 2009 12:42 PM
What hogwash. My girls like disney princesses, doesn't mean they'll sit around expecting a man to rescue them in life.
As for the not black enough thing, that's just too stupid to comment on.
momof4 at May 31, 2009 12:59 PM
First things first, Disney is the devil
Second
jh, of Johannesburg says: "Ultimately, a Disney movie is not going to significantly impact anyone's world view.
The motherfucking valedictorian of my highschool wrote a paper on Pocohontas for history class, used the disney movie as her source material and got a fucking A.
It boggles the mind, it really does, meanwhile I got an F in for pointing out that Columbas was directly responsible for the death of the indiegionus people of the island of Hispanolia.
People are stupid, disney makes them more so by rewritting history to make it more palatable 'for the children'
lujlp at May 31, 2009 4:36 PM
'The motherfucking valedictorian of my highschool wrote a paper on Pocohontas for history class, used the disney movie as her source material and got a fucking A.'
Gods help us. That's horrible. My niece got an A for a poster on 'The History of England' in 9th grade, it was a composite of pictures and text, about Buckingham Palace, Princess Diana, and Harry Potter(!). She got an A for a 'robot' she made that was a construction paper shape taped onto a remote controlled car. How in any shape or form, is that a robot? 'Oh it doesn't have to really work, we just have to make it' was what I was told when my brother and I offered to find her kits online for working robots. And it was for math class. This is the education they're getting.
Sorry for the veer off topic.
crella at May 31, 2009 5:32 PM
Look at who runs the schools. Now look at their agenda.
They only stay in power when people are too stupid to see the destruction their policies wreak.
Now ask yourself, are the public schools dumbing the kids down because they don't have enough money/power/whatever? Or are they dumbing them down because they are incompetent? Or is it a concerted effort to make sure the next generation are too dumb to be self sufficient?
brian at May 31, 2009 7:22 PM
The comment writer JH seems to be raising her kids right; they picked up on this insight-
"At 18, she says the Disney villainesses have more character dimension than the princesses do."
Damn skippy. There's an entire book dedicated to the Disney villains. They make for more compelling characters any day. I wanna be Ursula. Dame can sing!!! What sass and panache.....!!!
Juliana at May 31, 2009 7:23 PM
> Disney is the devil
Wanna know who agrees with you? This guy: "[The Jonas Brothers] feign conservative social values while romping around the bizarre hyper-sexual Disney meta-verse where young kids dress like Madonna and Mick Jagger and live the rock n' roll lifestyle..."
That blog post is a sweet little rant, but it's kinda naive. It's like a teenager who whines about hypocrisy. Or someone who mopes about how McDonald's makes all that money by selling inexpensive pucks of salted fat. (I'm all like, 'Well, yeah....') We get the sense that the blogger would like to make money at the at the verge of commerce and sexuality too, just like Disney does, but he hasn't figured out how yet.
> my daughter will not want to see
> this, since she's moved on to
> Hannah Montana and shit like that.
One reason I never wanted kids was that explaining the fraudulence of Hollywood to children seemed too daunting. Some of my own childhood was spent in the misapprehension than this-or-that somewhat famous person had something special going on. (My immortal soul was rescued before too much damage by dumb luck and many blessings, including growing up in a college town where truly talented –if unknown– performers would demonstrate what it really meant to be gifted.)
After I grew up a father of four explained how it's done: When he saw his kids getting carried away with admiration or envy for some silly showbiz person, he'd say to them: "They're getting paid to make you feel that way." Even very young kids can understand money. With that perspective, the kids start to think about all the industrial support required to give a nominal humanoid like Miley (or Britney or Jackson or Elvis) the appearance of a gifted personage. With that insight, the toothy smiles were never again so bright.
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at May 31, 2009 8:41 PM
Or is it a concerted effort to make sure the next generation are too dumb to be self sufficient?
According to the AFT, the average public school teacher graduates from college in the lowest third of their class.
Read that again - lowest third, from a teachers college, having taken ed courses. So you're basically dealing with people who couldn't otherwise graduate from college.
I think that this is the real reason behind the dumbing-down of public education. Most teachers just aren't very intelligent, much less well educated. You can raise testing standards, improve the curriculum, offer more advanced courses, but it doesn't matter because the people providing the instruction can't be counted on to do so effectively.
Marko at May 31, 2009 9:47 PM
Half the kids are below average, too.
MarkD at June 1, 2009 8:24 AM
Below the median, you mean. (So to speak.)
(Anybody out there? These are the JOKES, people!)
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at June 1, 2009 8:32 AM
Crid - statistics jokes are only going to work on a math nerd like me.
And that one was awful.
brian at June 1, 2009 10:05 AM
Jim Cummings is not the voice of Yosemite Sam, Joe Alaskey is.
To be fair, while Disney sticks with the "one voice one character" rule (Wayne Allwine, the voice of Mickey Mouse, died recently), Warner Brothers keeps a staff of guys to do the voices, so they don't get caught in that trap. So while Jim may have done Sam for one project or another, AFAIK he's not the primary voice actor.
The rest of the post is beyond comment, as it will not change anything. Disney were damn fools for even trying - they should have known this is all they were going to get. Nobody can get on the news by applauding good work, only by sharing failures.
Vinnie Bartilucci at June 2, 2009 7:22 AM
Read Carl Hiassen's Team Rodent for an entertaining diatribe against all things Disney.
http://www.amazon.com/Team-Rodent-Disney-Devours-World/dp/0345422805
Conan the Grammarian at June 2, 2009 1:51 PM
> jh, of Johannesburg says: "Ultimately, a Disney movie is not going to significantly impact anyone's world view. That's why we read, watch the news, have family discussions."
> A Disney movie *is so* going to impact someone's world view! ... Disney has been *the* quintessential storyteller for 20th-21st Century children
Probably more so in the US and less so in South Africa. Also less so for families that 'read, watch the news and have family discussions', and more so for families TV and movies are more prominent than books/news. Personally I think if one Disney cartoon has that huge an impact on some kid's life, I have to wonder if something is out of balance. It's just a cartoon.
> "They were just stupid to take this on, because there is NO way that they would ever measure up."
Partly, I'd say, because it's such a blatantly obvious and silly political move ... a glaringly obvious token black character put there for glaringly obvious PC, token purposes, and not because Disney executives and animators suddenly genuinely became color-blind overnight. It screams token, token, token, token, token ... nobody thinks for one second that this is anything else.
Thing is though, our concept of princesses *really does* have a place in our (white, Western) cultural heritage. It doesn't look out of place to see a white princess because throughout our history, we had white princesses; it's just there in our "cultural backdrop". But there were no black princesses (certainly not resembling our concept of a princess - look at the Victorian-esque screenshot above - historically, it's absurd to imagine a black princess in that situation) - so it really does look out of place.
But personally I think "who gives a cr-p" anyway. It's just a character in a cartoon. A non-issue, whether she's a token or not. It's just entertainment for kids. Kids aren't bothered by the history, and for the large part kids really are color-blind until around puberty. If you want "black enough" characters, create your own animation studio and start making your own cartoons.
Mouse at June 2, 2009 3:30 PM
"... historically, it's absurd to imagine a black princess in that situation) - so it really does look out of place".
At risk of pushing this a bit far, the equivalent might a cartoon portraying historical American slavery but where there many white slaves too, and slavery was not race-based at all - it looks and feels absurd and out of place because our brains retain a strong recognition of the historical context, and say 'eh that thar don't belong there' - as if you suddenly saw a car in a movie set in the 1700s. It will *never* look right to our generation (black or white) - but now we're attempting to artificially re-engineer the historical cultural collective recollections of the next generation. Maybe it will work; maybe the next generation will imagine that historically European princesses were of many different races.
Mouse at June 2, 2009 3:38 PM
Okay, I have to interject here, as someone who grew up with Ariel and the Modern Princess Push.
"Princess Culture" all depends on parents and the culture of the family around you. The same mothers who read those MORONIC romance novels (I shelved one at the library the other day actually titled "The Italian Billionaire's Convenient Wife" or somesuch) are the same ones who are going to emphasize the love story to their little girls. Whereas someone with less ... love for the all-powerful romance will be telling her little girls after the movie "I like the part where Ariel saved the prince because she was so brave". It all depends on parents and parenting.
For instance... after Pocahontas came out, I sat down and found out about the *real* Pocahontas, instead of taking Disney's word for it. We got out the encyclopedia and looked her up, and (back in the days where A&E had a Biography on every night), Mom let me tape the A&E Biography on her. I then told every person I met that Pokey was about twelve years old when all that happened, John Smith was a pathological liar, and that it was probably an adoption ritual into the tribe. When Hunchback of Notre Dame came out the next year, my mom sat me down and told me the story in the novel, then asked if I wanted to see the movie. (I said "no," but wound up seeing it on video after curiousity killed me).
My favorite princess was always Jasmine (from Aladdin), because she got to tell Aladdin off, and because in an episode of the TV show, she took over the whole kingdom in one day, when she was hypnotized into thinking she was a villain.
The fact is, people who want Disney movies to be historically/culturally accurate are all messed up. I took a course on fairy tales in college that should have been titled "Villifying Disney". The author of a book went on and on about how wrong it was for Jasmine to dress the way she did, when that's not at all Arabic culture. In the next breath, this same author said that the representation of women in "Mulan" made China look bad.
So, what the heck? On one hand, you want Jasmine to be in a burkha, not be allowed to speak, and get stoned when she tells the hero to get lost, but you don't want China to look bad because they (factually) would've been pissed to find a chick in the Imperial Army? Which way is the Mouse supposed to go here?
Dude, I could go on and on (and the poor, unfortunate college professor can testify to that), but in the end, it depends on the household you're raised in to set things in perspective for little ones.
CornerDemon at June 2, 2009 4:37 PM
"You know, redheads aren't often "represented" in mainstream media -- or anywhere. Should I be up in arms?"
HELLO -- The Little Mermaid? The one who kick-started the whole new wave of Disney princesses?
Total redhead. Though not drawn as pale-skinned as most redheads actually are. So you should complain about that part.
LYT at June 2, 2009 6:06 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/31/not_black_enoug.html#comment-1651644">comment from LYTHELLO -- The Little Mermaid? The one who kick-started the whole new wave of Disney princesses? Total redhead.
Whoops. Truth be told, I don't look for people (or cartoon people) to look like me. I relate to people on the humanity level, which is why I can see films from other countries and get something out of them.
Amy Alkon at June 2, 2009 6:21 PM
I like to use the redhead issue as a proxy for race, just to show how silly the whole issue is. If I could just look to redhead females as models to relate to or look up to, who would I get? OK, Ariel came out when I was a (slightly older) kid, so I guess she counts, and Barbie had a redhead friend (with the unfortunate name of Madge).
As far as the real world goes, who do I get? Lucille Ball? (not even a real redhead!) Amy Alkon?
But the thing is, it doesn't matter, because no one really thinks that way about hair color- it just describes my physical appearance and lets people know that I should stay in the shade. There's no reason in the world that we should treat race any differently.
Lyssa, Lovely Redhead at June 2, 2009 7:31 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/05/31/not_black_enoug.html#comment-1651649">comment from Lyssa, Lovely RedheadWell-said, Lyssa, LR!
Amy Alkon at June 2, 2009 7:33 PM
People need to stop thinking so much into it. It's just a Disney character, nothing more.
Dani at September 14, 2009 3:07 AM
I defeniately agree with your point.
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Jonathon Pickert at September 3, 2010 1:21 AM
Tiana was barely in the movie as an black young lady, she spent most of her time as a frog. Not only that she was poor and could even get a black prince. Why is it hard for us to acknowledge black males who are royalty and that they are capable of being on the upperclass with out having a rap deal? Disney has always and will always display racist stereotypes in their literature. Its more then just a character when we begin to acknowledge offensive statements as just characters we've lost our humility. Look at the issues underlying the Lion KIng. Take note of the voice overs....Scar and the Hyenas were dark and evil with 'black' and 'hispanic' tendencies while The high class heroic Lions were brightly colored enjoyed the best of Africa.
Now think of Esmerelda..and Pocahontas...
Do Blondes get more hype then redheads yes; However, there still good amount of redhead actresses in the media today all of which have not been Racially degraded. Ariel was a elite princess who did end up marrying a prince racial dilemma...maybe not
Elyse Fears at November 22, 2010 2:18 PM
Tiana was barely in the movie as an black young lady, she spent most of her time as a frog. Not only that she was poor and could even get a black prince. Why is it hard for us to acknowledge black males who are royalty and that they are capable of being on the upperclass with out having a rap deal? Disney has always and will always display racist stereotypes in their literature. Its more then just a character when we begin to acknowledge offensive statements as just characters we've lost our humility. Look at the issues underlying the Lion KIng. Take note of the voice overs....Scar and the Hyenas were dark and evil with 'black' and 'hispanic' tendencies while The high class heroic Lions were brightly colored enjoyed the best of Africa.
Now think of Esmerelda..and Pocahontas...
Do Blondes get more hype then redheads yes; However, there still good amount of redhead actresses in the media today all of which have not been Racially degraded. Ariel was a elite princess who did end up marrying a prince racial dilemma...maybe not
Elyse Fears at November 22, 2010 2:26 PM
Thanks for spending the time to discuss this, I feel strongly about it and love reading more on this topic.
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