Wonderful answer, don't know that I could do the same upon receiving an email of that ilk.

Classy!

What is it with women? They seem to resort to the vicious personal attack as a first resort.

And they always, always, ALWAYS go for the appearance.

Meowwwwwwwww! said the e-mailer.

I'll bet "Amy Alkon's Goofiest Hate Mail of the Week" would be a lot of fun to read, but I guess that would only encourage 'em.

I am not a big fan of obsessive mommyhood. I have done both gigs, working mom and stay at home mom and the advantage of the former is that you are less likely to make a life out of obsessing over your children. However I have seen it done. This was also true in the days of massive families and no birth control. Who has time to obsess over ten kids? I think the nasty letter writer above is a lesser example of Munchausen's By Proxy where your entire sense of existence is vested in being a mom and the attention that you (and hopefully everyone else) lavish on your obviously superior children. Bad for the parent, even worse for the kid(s). In the case of divorce, I think custody, by default ought to go to the dad. In 90 percent of cases, the kids would be better off because the father is somewhat less likely to define his entire existence around his role as a parent. But you know what the great thing about being an obsessive mommy is? With any luck, once that gig is over, you can move on to being an obsessive grandmother, and hopefully destroy your child's marriage in the process making you even more indispensible.

Wow, a little ire on moms there Isabel? There are lots and lots of good ones. Even many great ones. I'm not sure where you got your sample pool, other than yourself, but I'd say it's faulty.

I think Amy does like to simplify the SAHM gig, and does come off a little superior, saying she knows how to do it better than those who actually do it. There are plenty of moms out there worthy of your mocking though. Octomom is still good for some cracks-feel free to unload!

LW was merely nasty though, not useful. Better spelling would help her case a little. Not much, but some.

One of the angry e-mail I got was from a woman who sent me what was probably a five-page letter on everything she does every day -- including knitting Afghans and "Irish sweaters," whatever those are. You know, your children are not substantially affected by whether the couch afghan is hand-knit or not. If you don't like the tasks of being a mother, you shouldn't do them. But, as Glenn Sacks pointed out to me on the phone, and as I discovered researching this topic (which I did over a period of months, specifically for this column, and years, on the topic generally) it's possible to do the work of parenting (taking care of the kids and house) without it being some huge nightmare -- providing you don't make it one with psycho standards and huge task lists. It's different for parents who have, say, autistic children. But, some parents have a few children when they can manage one effectively, but not more.

I'm in a nasty mood this morning so any chance of you posting her e-mail address. I love being nasty to self involved baby rabid nasties like this one. You know my view of stay at homes (at least ones with only one kid) and I promise to CC you on the whole exchange :)

I'm with old rpm daddy, any chance for a best of the worst section on the blog.

I think I might even pay a subscriber fee for access to Amy's hate mail.

No biggie, it's just a slow morning here, but:

> you need a license to cut
> hair, but only working ovaries
> to have children.

If there's any light to be shed from this, you're going to have to be specific: In which enterprise would you prefer to see regulation applied or withdrawn: Hair care or reproduction?

> What, in particular, in my
> column, do you feel was incorrect?

That's how I felt about the guy who got pissed off at me for harshing Boone... If you're going to let someone know that you're angry, you ought to have the clarity to say why. Otherwise, maybe it's not anger that you're feeling.

> Alkon's Goofiest Hate Mail of
> the Week" would be a lot of
> fun to read

Yes. But despite her reputation to the contrary, Alkon's not really that belligerent a spirit. It's a sad reflection of our times that anyone with thoughtful boundaries is regarded as a hardass.

> a subscriber fee for access
> to Amy's hate mail.

At last, a way to monetize! If the LA Times had thought of that, maybe they'd have had money left to do a Sunday Book Review section.

The middle-aged ballbuster that I work with told me, when she found out I was pregnant, that it was more important that I not work when my kid is school-age, versus when it's a baby, because, "That's when they REALLY need you." I thought that was one of the dumbest pieces of bullshit advice I'd ever heard... then I noticed some things. She's on the phone ALL DAY (while she's on the clock, btw) running her kids' lives. She's an officer in the PTA (for more than one school), she's in the booster club, she doesn't let her eight-grader walk himself 2 blocks home from school, and so on. She's that mom who's getting the parties busted by the cops, who's meeting with the teacher because her kid got a "c" on a report, who has her kids enrolled in club sports, who's doing the science projects for them, who wrote her son's resume for him after he graduated from Rice. (She also calls her husband to ask him what he had for lunch. Really.)
Yes, I know being a mom can be hard, but I think a lot of women make it harder than it has to be. You don't need to run every minute aspect of your kids' lives (especially when they're teenagers), and you don't have to play the Alpha-Mom power struggle game.
Oh, and there's no way in hell I'm leaving my infant with a stranger all day, then quitting my job so that I can micro-manage its life when it turns six. Geez.

Any woman who has time to fucking KNIT has no business ever complaining - that's a hobby, not a job.

Instead of being miserable, people need to figure out what works for them. Being a stay-at-home mom drove me insane with boredom, and working full time was too stressful. I'm now working part-time, mostly while my kids are in school, and I think it is perfect. I also don't care if my house looks perfect, and I'm totally comfortable just telling my kids to go outside and play when I want to get things done.

...it's possible to do the work of parenting (taking care of the kids and house) without it being some huge nightmare -- providing you don't make it one with psycho standards and huge task lists.

And that is the crux of the problem. Most SAHMs seem to have two primary issues about how they view their 'work day'.

1) They hold themselves to a June Cleaver standard that no one can achieve. They think that they should be able to chase after a two year old while, knitting an afgan, keeping a perfect house, and spending six months on little Sally's Halloween costume. Few can live up to fiction.

2) SAHMs often seem to believe that just because they are busy that they are effective. Just because your day is filled up beyond what you can do doesn't mean that all that you are doing needs to be done. Eliminate all of the extra crap that you are doing only to stroke your own ego, and suddenly time frees up.

What I get tired of is the constant one-upmanship over whose life is the hardest. That martyr crap doesn't make me feel one bit sorry for anyone.

If you live in Somalia, you can bitch about having a hard life. If you live in any Western country and have a hard life, it's because you've fucked up and made it that way yourself. If you must complain about the time and effort required to knit Irish sweaters, well then quit doing it already!

Indirectly, a friend of mine posted the following on his Facebook page:

"########## can't decide who is less qualified: A horse show lawyer running FEMA, or a 31 year old Poli Sci grad who never set foot in an auto plant in charge of GM's restructuring."

Both fair & funny IMHO. Yet he received a stream of hatred from a Rabid Leftist, who refused to address the points in question and instead just reverted to BDS attacks. FYI BDS = Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Politically incorrect question: "Do those who love Barack Obama the most have the least sense of humor?"

Sometimes I just think SAHM is a way of defining yourself that is chosen, and then to make it a value add, gradually more and more effort is made until it is difficult. But since it is a person's definition of self, it is unchallengable if it's strong enough.

I know women that have immaculate houses, and so forth, but they are constantly yelling at the kids about making a mess, and yelling at their husband that he deosn't help. The stereotype about how these women react when you don't fold the towels right, isn't a joke.

But? That isn't the root problem in this disharmony. Guys can follow instruction if you have a good reason for them. If there isn't a good reason, you can just ask that they do it, because it makes you feel more comefortable. Guys often respond to that when you tell them. But he will forget sometimes because you way isn't self evident. The real root cause for the problem is the assumption that your way... is self evident and the most correct way, and why are you so stupid that you can't see that? This is another aspect that seems not quite obsessive, but difficult. [Not to say that one spouse or the other isn't lazy...]

The way kids days are planned out, requiring lots of logistics and stuff, is an extension of feelling like you are managing an enterprise.

This is also something like corporate management, and all you corporate types know what I mean... you can't be SEEN to manage if things are going smoothly and well. It's trials by fire and complexity that show how good a manger you are. When you are defining your enterprise by staying at home, why would that be different?

> Politically incorrect question: "Do those
> who love Barack Obama the most have the
> least sense of humor?"

It's not the worst question, but it's not like Bush & Co. were known for their comedic chops. IJS

PS- You're Canadian, right?

OK.

@PJ: "What I get tired of is the constant one-upmanship over whose life is the hardest. That martyr crap doesn't make me feel one bit sorry for anyone."

Right on, Pirate Jo!

@Crid: "...it's not like Bush & Co. were known for their comedic chops."

At least, not on purpose.

Guys can follow instruction if you have a good reason for them.

My question is why are people setting things up in a particular way without a good reason to do so? I'm not much for the idea of 'because it is pretty' being a good reason...

-Julie

...it's disturbing that you need a license to cut hair, but only working ovaries to have children.

You only need a license to operate a business and charge people to cut their hair. You can cut your own hair or the hair of your friends (with their permission, of course) in your own kitchen all you want, no license required.

If having children were to be licensed...what would be the punishment for having an unlicensed kid? Would the kids have to wear little tags like dogs and cats? Would their be leash laws?

Would their be leash laws?

Would there be leash laws?

Oops.

Robert: I'll grant you that FEMA is a crack whore whose glory days are past. As far as GM restructuring, how qualified are the guys who ran it before if they ran it into the ground, and these would be people who had spent time in the plant.

BTW I find making fun of either president amusing. As long as it doesn't go into paranoid ramblings, like 911 truthers or those who believe Obama wants to bankrupt the country and impose a socialist state. Laughing with or at crazy people makes them dangerous.

what would be the punishment for having an unlicensed kid? Would the kids have to wear little tags like dogs and cats? Would their be leash laws?

And the bark collar. Don't forget the bark collar.

Would there be leash laws?

I have long been an advocate of leash laws. Think about how many missing kid stories start out with 'I turned around and my little one was gone'. If the kid is attached to someone, makes it much more difficult.

That doesn't negate that most kids are kidnapped by someone they know and trust...but it would also eliminate the snotty kids running nuts in public.

;-)

-Julie

Here's a way to irritate the mommy martyrs who want to wear a badge of honor for making their own lives needlessly difficult.

As they argue over whose life is the hardest, mention that you're childfree and start bragging about how EASY your life is.

Seriously, why is having a hard life something to brag about? To me, that just says you made bad choices.

Seriously, why is having a hard life something to brag about? To me, that just says you made bad choices.

It's the same weirdness that makes being dirt poor a mark of honor but being comfortable, or even wealthy, something to be ashamed of.

I think what upsets me is that most people find little ways to goof off while doing any job - as is evidenced by the number of "working" people on this site at odd hours of the day, myself included, self-employed though I am. :)

But, whenever anyone catches a SAHM doing anything other than something child-related, they get judged for "being lazy", and I think this is what drives some moms to knit Irish sweaters, or hover endlessly over their kids, micromanaging their schedules. It's like they have to justify the choice to be at home by being superproductive.

That said, I was just feeling kind of self-critical for being too lax and not enough like some of those moms. School has gotten incredibly competitive, and I now see that the moms who did that in elementary school tend to have the kids who are getting all the awards and accolades in high school, whereas my daughter is doing ok, but not a straight A student like some of those kids are.

I mean, I used to think those SAHMs were kind of extreme, overwrought busybodies - and they WERE busy - always volunteering at school, building science projects, drilling the homework, and obsessing over every "B" their child received, but maybe they were right (or maybe I'm just being self-pitying today).

The point is that many of them work extremely hard, and their kids do seem to benefit from that effort. Like any job where you set your own agenda, it's what you make it.

The point is that many of them work extremely hard, and their kids do seem to benefit from that effort.

If you get to college and have never had to manage your own life many tend to self destruct.

But, whenever anyone catches a SAHM doing anything other than something child-related, they get judged for "being lazy", and I think this is what drives some moms to knit Irish sweaters, or hover endlessly over their kids, micromanaging their schedules. It's like they have to justify the choice to be at home by being superproductive.

I have no issue with a SAHM taking time for herself, taking a break, or knitting a sweater (or building a rocket ship). However, having the time to do all of those things and then claiming that her life is so much more difficult sorta eats my ass a little bit. We all have pleasantries and difficulties. If the mom feels overburdened, then she needs to learn to say no like the rest of us. It isn't that the job is more difficult than earning a paycheck, it is that SAHM want more credit for doing it. That is the part that I don't get.

I think they (or I...I'm a stay-at-home-working mom, or SAHWM, lol) want credit because it's such a thankless job. There's so many conflicting theories of how to do it, and the results aren't quantifiable like they are in most other jobs. As vlad points out, you seem like a successful mom because your kid is on the honor roll one minute, then he's a pothead the next.

That's the nature of kids, and often has no bearing on how they're raised, but all moms, working or non-working, rarely feel like we're doing it right. So, it's always nice to hear someone say that we are.

I bet Amy's neighbor is really grateful for all the respect and support she's shown. Just having someone say, "You're doing a great job!" makes such a difference. SAHMs don't get raises, job reviews, or bonuses, so that occassional praise is the only objective evaluation we get.

Politically incorrect question: "Do those who love Barack Obama the most have the least sense of humor?"

On the SAHM issue, some kids probably do benefit from all of that attention and from having the stability of one person as the main caregiver. But other times, the mom is someone who should never have had kids, or who frankly can't raise them. Being a stay-at-home-mom is generally assumed to be praiseworthy, and to be an undervalued job -but some moms just stink at it, while expecting to be praised for having sacrificed for their kids.

"But, whenever anyone catches a SAHM doing anything other than something child-related, they get judged for "being lazy""

Oh, yeah? By who? Certainly not by other men than their husband, and that's a negotiation. Is this a self-reinforcing thing that women do to each other?

I think they (or I...I'm a stay-at-home-working mom, or SAHWM, lol) want credit because it's such a thankless job.

But that is the thing...it doesn't appear to be thankless. There are entire holidays dedicated to thanking parents, complete with presents.(http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/06/mothers-day-spending-ent-sales-cx_hs_0506mothersdaynumbers.html )

I'm not saying that good mothers shouldn't be thanked by their kids and appreciated by the rest of us, but this country's view of motherhood borders on the divine, all the while the mother's claim that they have a thankless job.

I really am confused. Why is getting up with the 2 year old at 3 AM more 'thankless' than me getting up with a server at 3 AM? And why is it that mothers describe their job as thankless and fathers don't?

"Oh, yeah? By who? Certainly not by other men than their husband, and that's a negotiation. Is this a self-reinforcing thing that women do to each other?"

Yeah, I would say so. There's always the, "Do you work?" question, and when a mom says she works at home, it's usually like, "Oh right"...as if you really don't work.

I'm not sure how it is these days. Maybe it's better than when my kids were little. Momof4 might speak to that. But I run a business out of my home, and I still get that tone of judgement.

And, of course, husbands perceptions matter, and I remember that I could be working all day, chasing little kids, paying bills, cleaning house, etc, but it seemed like whenever I sat down to take a break - to watch Oprah for a few minutes, have a snack, or something - THAT's when my husband would inevitably walk through the door.

I always felt guilty then, even though I knew that my day would last much longer. My chores weren't done until the kids were fed, bathed, homework done, and put to bed, usually around 9 pm. And, then I was hoping for a restful night with no nightmares or sniffles.

Julie, sure, we get a Hallmark card and a sloppy breakfast on Mother's Day (IF they remember!) but often, our kids don't really appreciate what we do (at least until they leave home and have kids of their own, which is probably when it gets elevated to the divine). A server can't say, "I hate you! Leave me alone!" while it throws up on you at 3 am.

Presumably, you get the respect of your co-workers, boss, glowing job reviews, and financial perks when you're doing a good job. Your performance is quantifiable and directly related to the value and status you achieve with your company.

I just wanted to thank Amy for the way she dealt with the column. I remember her fishing for opinions a while back (maybe I'll look up the column later) on SAHM vs Working Moms, and she kinda came in with the thought that it was always gonna be the PayCheck earner who had it harder. And her column reflects that I think she changed her mind a bit on that one, because the hardest thing about being a SAHM is the fact that it doesn't end (as lovelysoul has posted above). And the fact that women and men have different expectations as to what "needs" to be done. (This is reflected in the many, many columns along the line of why men don't clean the way women clean).

The fact, like Amy says, it isn't "who's got the harder job" at all. It's about being an effective team at raising your child.

Aaaaand, I'll save my rant about teamwork in parenting for another day. I just wanted to say, on behalf of being the kid of a SAHM, thanks for not making it to look like its a Bon-bon and Oprah Life.

"THAT's when my husband would inevitably walk through the door." Lovelysoul

OK, so did he bellow: "woman! where's my steak!" when he walked through the door? What things did he say? That is what I mean by negotiation, depends on what he thought, and what he said.

You describe feeling guilt if you were watching oprah when he walked through the door. Did he say "what're you doing watching oprah"? Otherwise, where does that guilt come from? Are you sure he really cares enough to be unhappy that you are watching oprah?

"My chores weren't done until the kids were fed, bathed, homework done, and put to bed, usually around 9 pm"

You guys don't do that together? The highpoint of my day was doing homework and putting kids to bed. Because basically that's the time I got to see them during the day. That's the payoff for enduring a day from hell...

"Wow, a little ire on moms there Isabel? There are lots and lots of good ones. Even many great ones. I'm not sure where you got your sample pool, other than yourself, but I'd say it's faulty. "

I have a very good mother. Worked when I was a kid, college educated, third in her class at the University of South Carolina. My father was a disabled WWII vet who ran his business from home and fixed lunch for me every day while my mother was at work. Neither of my parents were obsessive or hovering. My father's sister destroyed my cousin's first two marriages (housekeeping,cooking and child reading was never good enough to meet my aunt's standards) before he managed to marry one who was a tougher "b-tch than she was. As another poster said, many of these micro managed kids self destruct in college. My daughter when she was about ten used to be friends with a little girl whose parents were both MD's. After one play date the mother proudly informed me that their daughter had made them sit in the basement and watch some impromptu drama production that their daughter and my daughter had put together which had taken over two hours. I had to bite my tongue to keep from asking if they were both insane. They micro managed her through high school but the kid never did make it through college. Only two examples, I have lots more. :-) Oh and I have been married twenty eight years to the same guy. He was raised by an alcoholic mother and an absentee father who traveled a lot. There is no more honest, generous or kind man on the face of the planet than my husband. Benign neglect IMHO leads to better outcomes in adulthood for most children. Isabel

> you need a license to cut
> hair, but only working ovaries
> to have children.

In the state I live, one does not need a license to cut one's own hair (and I believe, your kids). I wonder if you need a license to have other people's kids? When one thinks about it, to adopt a kid requires a lot of evaluation by the government so maybe the difference is not so much.

A server can't say, "I hate you! Leave me alone!" while it throws up on you at 3 am.

No, but you can be greeted at 3 AM by a manager (or user) who is screaming at you and calling you an idiot because the server came down. You can then work 36 hours straight to get it working only to be brought into a 'post mortem' meeting to explain how you screwed up by not knowing exactly when the system board was going to take a crap and fix it in advance. This is rewarded by massive layoffs, non-existent raises, and increased work loads.

Presumably, you get the respect of your co-workers, boss, glowing job reviews, and financial perks when you're doing a good job. Your performance is quantifiable and directly related to the value and status you achieve with your company.

Some days. Most of the time it is just shit work and bad attitudes.

You get to watch your children grow into adults while shaping and helping them to be as functional as possible. You get the satisfaction of seeing your legacy in this world grow and change and possibly have children of their own.

You and I can go back and forth like this all day, but in the end we both made decisions about our careers because that is what we wanted to do. Whenever I hear a SAH mother talk about how thankless motherhood is, it is obvious to me that she is speaking of her own insecurities about the choice that she made. If she was really as convinced as she claims that she was 'shaping the world of tomorrow' and 'doing the most important job ever', she wouldn't need the validation. The only person not thanking the mothers for their work is the mothers themselves. That really is a shame.

-Julie

Swiss, my ex never said anything - unless I made a mistake businesswise. He cared a lot more about money than kids. And he never helped. He was raised in the 50s, and childcare was basically "woman's work". I'm always so impressed by men like you who take the time to help with homework and bedtime after a busy day.

My ex was also a big supporter of the "benign neglect" theory that Isabel espouses. If we were out with other people, he'd always claim our kids were so great because we practiced "benign neglect"...which wasn't even true, as I certainly wasn't neglecting them, but it always got a (nervous) laugh or two. I don't believe in "benign neglect" at all. Some kids may survive it emotionally intact, but it's not ideal.

And Julie, I think the "who has it harder" question is impossible to resolve...because It's really BOTH. Some women work harder outside the home than SAHMs and some SAHMs work harder than women who work outside the home. It depends on the job and the woman.

But my perception is that working women generally get more respect. People are probably quite impressed with your job, and they assume you must be very bright and accomplished, whereas "anybody" can be a SAHM, so we don't get that respect, at least initially.

It's kind of like the difference between blond and brunette. :)

If she was really as convinced as she claims that she was 'shaping the world of tomorrow' and 'doing the most important job ever', she wouldn't need the validation.

Most people need to feel validated by others, that other people think well of what they do. Women can be brutal to each other, especially when it comes to childcare. SAHM vs. Working Moms. Breastfeeding vs. Bottle Feeding. Home Birth vs. Hospital Birth. Motherhood seems to have become a competitive sport.

Usually the people who have to resort to name calling do so because they can't back up their arguement with facts and relevent data.

Usually- You have stuck a nerve or pushed a button. Basically you have called them on their sh*t.

A co-worker was on cafe mom. My co-worker has 3 children by 3-different fathers. I'm not a fan of her decisions and she admits she has made mistakes, but she is working and has never received public assistance.

She was blogging with a mom of 6 never married with severa different fathers. Mom of-6 said it was her right to have as many children as she wanted and was entitled to welfare because she loves her children. Turned in to quite a disagreement between these ladies, wish I could post more on it.

Motherhood seems to have become a competitive sport.

I've seen this. It's pretty disturbing.

"Why is getting up with the 2 year old at 3 AM more 'thankless' than me getting up with a server at 3 AM?"

The 2-year-old wasn't anywhere near as good a time as that waiter, and you know it.

Heh.

hey Rad, don't offend the computer gods with bad jokes :devil: they may require you to sacrifice an eee pc on a blue moon before your network comes back...

I don't do benign neglect, as much as watchful neglect... when they are young you make sure they don't fall, and then you make sure they fall on something that is soft, and then you let 'em fall, and you are there with bandaids, and then you tell them that you trust they can remember how to put a bandaid on, and then you tell them they are old enough to figure it out.

To Julie who said women who say being a SAHM is thankless are just insecure about their choice.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. My mother was a SAHM. She cooked, cleaned, paid the bills, and helped remodel the home we grew up in. She was always busy and not in the micromanaging way that has been discussed in the comments thus far. She rarely had a free moment to herself and never had babysitters. She was constantly scrutinized by women who were working mothers. She received outright hostility and insults from those women. They told her she wasn't contributing to the household, she was lazy, you name it. Rarely did she hear that she did a good job and was doing something important.

It is also thankless in another way that I have not seen mentioned. When we were little, we used to get sick frequently and she would take care of us(there are four of us). She would take our temperatures, give us medicine, take us to the doctor, go to the store because we requested 7up and Jello and rub our heads so they would feel better. Then often, she would get sick and still take care of us even though she felt like shit and just wanted to lay down and rest. We never thanked her because that's what moms do as far as we were concerned.

I really appreciate what she did and all that she gave up for us so we would have a good future. So I guess this is a little love letter to my SAHM.

Women can be brutal to each other, especially when it comes to childcare.

She received outright hostility and insults from those women. They told her she wasn't contributing to the household, she was lazy, you name it.

I can appreciate that women are under a lot of pressure to be perfect moms, and that they feel like they're being judged.

But if mothers recognize that this pressure is coming primarily from other women, and that it's really a sort of status competition, why do they still blame their husbands for the problem?

Whenever I see these issues brought up in the media, it's inevitably men who are blamed.

You'd think that this entire problem was due to lazy husbands that aren't adequately contributing to their families. So they're supposed to work a full-time job and then do exactly the same amount of housework and childcare as their wives. But this would require another 8 or 10 hours of work above and beyond the hours they put into their workday. So it's just not possible, and the result is that men are failures, yet again, and to blame for everything.

I've seen this expectation break-up marriages.

Doesn't having a good marriage count for anything, or is it all about keeping up with the Janes?

"Then often, she would get sick and still take care of us even though she felt like shit and just wanted to lay down and rest."

Amen!! When the twins were tiny, I used to give serious consideration to throwing myself in front of a moving car, just to get some rest in the hospital. And hospitals aren't restful places, so that tells you what life was like for me.

I have strep right now. Have had for 4 days, Just managed to get myself to the dr today. The older 3 kiddoes have it too, fun fun! 3 week old nurses every 2 hours, so a restful convalescence isn't in my future. SAHM's should at least get sick days. Aren't sick days federal law?? :)

And yes, us SAHM's get a little looked-down-on by working moms. We in return look down on them for paying a high school educated worker to raise their kids so they can drive a $50k SUV. I think we have the better argument.

"As I've said before, it's disturbing that you need a license to cut hair, but only working ovaries to have children"

That mother was out of line, but her email in no way describes her mothering skills. This is a classic cat fight. Thanks for showing your claws.

I've seen this expectation break-up marriages.

I blame poor communication. People really need to iron out the details before they make the kids, and before they exchange rings. It may not be romantic, but it's vital.

My boyfriend and I are planning for the future. Within the next few years, we are going to get married, buy a house, hopefully have a child and take in my elderly parents. If all goes as planned, I will be the primary caregiver for three people, and my boyfriend will be working 10- to 14-hour days at a start-up. We're still in the planning process, but we are indeed planning the hell out of this. We want as few surprises as possible.

I thought y'all would appreciate this joke:

http://comics.com/committed/2009-06-04/

-Julie

It's kind of like the difference between blond and brunette. :)

I agree, and that was my point. We all have challenges and difficulties, as well as wonderful surprises and joys. When we play the 'I"m a victim' game and try to compete about how has it worse, no one really wins. A job is only truly thankless if you believe that it is.

-Julie

The 2-year-old wasn't anywhere near as good a time as that waiter, and you know it.

ROFLOL!!! Wrong kind of server, but I will take the laugh anyhow! :-)

And yes, us SAHM's get a little looked-down-on by working moms. We in return look down on them for paying a high school educated worker to raise their kids so they can drive a $50k SUV. I think we have the better argument.

This is my point...although I believe that it was unintentionally made. I've never heard a working parent bitch about a women that stays home with the kids. Most women that I know that have kids (and some of the dads) would love to have that option. Others know that they love their kids, but that they wouldn't do well with a constant dose of Barney everyday. However, SAHMs seem to have a bone to pick with women who chose to/need to work. They seem to see it as the panacea of respect and money. Because of that, working parents are painted as selfish people whose possessions are more important than their children. That is an unfair characterization.

Everyone's life is difficult at times. If you aren't happy with your life, change it. Otherwise why attack the choices that someone else made that have no impact on your life.

-Julie

Well, except for her ex husband. :)

Well, except for her ex husband. :)

hehe, that is a good one!

*Julie hands LS an umbrella to protect herself from the potential shit storm about to take place.

"Afghans and "Irish sweaters," whatever those are"

I thought you were a dog person. Both are breeds, and an Irish Sweater is simply overfed.

"Well, except for her ex husband. :)"

*falls over laughing*
not sayin' nothin' ;)

For all you helicopter parents out there, both Moms and Dads. What does "help with homework" mean to you? To my parents it meant being available in the house to answer what questions they could while I sat at the kitchen table on my own and did it: Same for bathing and tooth brushing and getting ready for bed after the age of about 4. If I asked either of my parents to review homework, they would, more often than not, decline. They did not consider themselves to be a backup system for telling me for the 3rd or 4th time what the instructions were after I had failed to listen to the teacher explain it. They assumed correctly that I would learn more by reading the instructions and examples and checking my own work, however flawed my internal system was. So again, for all of you out there that think the "help with homework" is a sign of good parenting, what do you consider to be a legitimate role for a parent in a child's homework and what sort of help do you provide? If your role is to insure that the answers are "right" does it make you feel like a superior parent because you can do homework better than the other kid's parents down the block? You can write your child's college essay for him, but unfortunately as of yet, you can't sit there, hold his hand and check his answers on the SAT. :-) Maybe that is why so many people want to get rid of the test? It is the last true indicator as to whether a kid can actually do something on his own, as opposed to how dedicated his parents are? Isabel.

If I asked either of my parents to review homework, they would, more often than not, decline. They did not consider themselves to be a backup system for telling me for the 3rd or 4th time what the instructions were after I had failed to listen to the teacher explain it.

Isabel, each of your posts talk about the things that you don't think parents should and your proponentcy of 'benign neglect' You even advocated for alcoholic parents, saying that they turn out better kids. What do you think parents should do, other than fuck, shoot the kid out, and make sure they don't starve to death?

I think Isabel makes a good point about homework, and it's one reason I think kids should be given much less of it, and even then, it should only be for practice, not graded.

Too often, parents do their kid's homework, which places the kids who have ethical parents and/or exhausted working parents at a disadvantage. I see too many poor kids who don't even have the supplies - poster board, graph paper, clay, encyclopedias, etc - at home to complete the elaborate homework assignments. It's unfair, and starts these kids out feeling like failures.

I'm more the "ask me questions in the kitchen" kind of mom. I always believed homework was my kids' responsibility. I expected them to build their own science projects, even if they looked sloppier than the ones produced by other kids (parents). Yet, as I posted earlier, I think this has actually placed them at an academic disadvantage against the kids with helicopter parents.

However, my kids probably KNOW more because what they've learned has truly been their own acquired knowledge, but gradewise, it's often been a problem.

"For all you helicopter parents out there, both Moms and Dads." - Isabel1130

gee, not betraying your own bias there, are you?

The purpose of school is learning, yes? In a sense all of childhood for most creatures is learning, both from parents in an exemplary way, and from mistakes in a recovery way. Kids learn to speak using the words you teach them to use. Do you think that just stops the minute they are in school? Like other forms of watchful neglect, when they are small you show them everything, when they are big, you show them where to go to figure things out. Socratic method is big in this. Add in the pokes and prods and eventually you find you don't need to prod them much. By the time they are in high school you don't have to do much unless they are really going off the rails, because they already learned the tools from you.

Sure, you can just kick them out the door and tell them to just figure it out, and they may even do so, but what makes you believe that it is the responsibility of school to help your kids learn everything they need to know? Schools necessarily teach to the middle. Do you want your kids there? Or do you want your kids doing the best that they can? It's up to you to instill that in them and to get them to make it happen.

I agree that a parent that makes sure the right answers are always on the paper, does the kid a disservice. I don't correct the kid's calculus answers, I make him show me how to do it. In the process, he usually comes across the place he screwed up. Towards the end of the year, he feels confident enough to stop asking me, and live with consequence.

Like a lot of things in life, either extreme isn't best.

"Why do you come to conclusions not supported by the actual evidence?"

That's easy. The evidence is your response.

She was nasty, but you responded in a way that has nothing to do with her parenting skills, which isn't in evidence, but you completely went to that.

"Actually, her e-mail is disturbing because she is so nasty -- and seems to see this as an acceptable form of communication to a total stranger. SURELY, SHE COMMUNICATES HER MO TO HER CHILDREN. Read my e-mail excerpts to her. In no way did I get into any sort of "cat fight" with her or show my "claws." Quite the contrary."

A conclusion thats completely without evidence!!! SURELY, your claws are showing.

I've never heard a working parent bitch about a women that stays home with the kids.

Nor have I.
************
unfortunately, i have heard this. and i was the SAHM that was told how selfish i was when i declined to watch the three children of a working mother over the summer vacation, without pay of course. after all, this mother WORKED FOR A PAYCHECK, and i was just sitting home with two toddlers (4 and 1) with nothing to do. yeah right. i was also listed as emergency contact on school paperwork who would come to pick up sick children from school without my knowledge or permission, just because "i was home all the time". oh yes, that's just what i want to do...go to school and pick up YOUR sick child and bring them to my home with my healthy children.

at this point of my life, i am enjoying my empty nest, with both of my children married and on their own. but it is so disturbing to me how we women turn on each other, judge each other. having been both a SAHM and a working mom, i've seen this from both sides. mothers work their butts off, whether or not they work outside the home. we should be supporting each other, not criticizing each other. both lifestyles are valid choices. the SAHM gives up monetary gains, the WM misses out on events in their childrens' lives. we all do what we feel we have to do. and that was what i thought the Woman's movement was supposed to be all about. we choose the life we want. and it's all good. apparently, i was wrong. thank heavens i didn't burn my bra way back then!!!

The women's movement's goal was to give women choices, and it has succeeded on that front. Unfortunately, humans are what they are. It makes us feel better about ourselves to feel superior to other people. The more important the choice, the more we need to put down someone else for making a different one.

i was the SAHM that was told how selfish i was when i declined to watch the three children of a working mother over the summer vacation, without pay of course. after all, this mother WORKED FOR A PAYCHECK, and i was just sitting home with two toddlers (4 and 1) with nothing to do. yeah right. i was also listed as emergency contact on school paperwork who would come to pick up sick children from school without my knowledge or permission,

So, you weren't bitched at because you were a SAHM, you were bitched at because you refused to be taken advantage of. You were completely in the right in both of those situations, and i hope that you stuck to your guns, despite the fact that I'm sure it was rather miserable for you for awhile.

I agree that women need to quit attacking each others choices. What does it accomplish?

-Julie

i was the SAHM that was told how selfish i was when i declined to watch the three children of a working mother over the summer vacation, without pay of course. after all, this mother WORKED FOR A PAYCHECK, and i was just sitting home with two toddlers (4 and 1) with nothing to do.

While this is undoubtedly the case in a small number of instances, my personal observation of this type of bias has been far more often in the case of the "Working Woman" being childless, and who with children hasn't been given "sage childrearing advice" from similar people? We ignore them as ignorant, why not the ones who think that SAHMs are just lazy non-producers?

In the case of the husband thinking the mother is lazy and useless just because she doesn't work outside the home, well, he needs some "schoolin'".

"But, whenever anyone catches a SAHM doing anything other than something child-related, they get judged for "being lazy", and I think this is what drives some moms to knit Irish sweaters, or hover endlessly over their kids, micromanaging their schedules. It's like they have to justify the choice to be at home by being superproductive."

Very good point.