Inexplicable. This has been going on since I was a little boy, which was a long time ago. These men simply cannot be humbled... They can be bankrupted, but not humbled.

Saturn was a stupid idea to begin with.

GM has always acted as if its competition was only Ford and Chrysler. They built Saturn to compete with the imports, leaving Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Olds, etc. to compete with their crosstown rivals.

I listened to a Pontiac executive a year of so ago describe the frame stiffness of their newest offering. The car actually scored close to Toyota, but this guy only mentioned that the frame was stiffer than Ford or Chrysler. 'cause Pontiac doesn't compete with Honda or Toyota.

Instead of improving Chevrolet, Pointiac, Buick, Olds, etc. to compete with the imports, the geniuses that run GM put yet another brand in an already overcrowded portfolio.

At some point they decided there was no market for Oldsmobile in the portfolio so they got rid of it. Then they decided to move Saturn into the Olds slot. Apparently there was a market. WTF?

Consumer Reports shills for the Japanese. I bought their line at first. But now I've driven both American and Japanese for years (Chevy, Merc, Mazda & Honda), and I've had equal repair issues with all. The Japanese quality has not been appreciably better than the American. But that's just my experience.

Umm, there's quite a bit of duplication above.

GM shot itself in the recall of the EV-1 electric car, which wasn't generating any repair revenue and was showing its lessors that it also wasn't going to be necessary to return to the GM dealer for a new one every 5 years.

I assume that the plastic-bodied Saturn was doing the same; aside from paint, the body on our SC-2 looks new, has no door dings, and though it rattles a bit now and then I have no complaints. It's not a luxury car and doesn't pretend to be one. Importantly, it doesn't have a big NiMH cell in it, which will be the downfall of "green" claims for hybrids.

All of these companies can build a reliable car. The two gross problems are that "reliable" means less impetus to buy another one, and the pension system.

I have a pickup with 464 thousand miles on it. It has the original clutch in it. I know, because I'm the original owner. It's a Nissan D21 HD - a simple vehicle, easy to maintain. You're not selling me a new car with a bunch of plastic and other trivial parts in it.

kishke has a point. I'd love to know how Chevy gets blamed for poor reliability for, say the Aveo - made in Korea.

Whic is the American car - the Honda built in Marysville, Ohio, or the Ford made in Canada?

> I'd love to know how Chevy gets
> blamed for poor reliability for,
> say the Aveo - made in Korea.

'Cause it's sold at GM dealerships. As a consumer, country of origin is not my concern... I jus' need some wheels, y'know?

I swore I would never buy another GM car on 1986 when my first new car a Chevy Cavalier was a lemon. My other GM car rusted out in 3 years.
I guess people want a car that doesn't fall apart within 5 years.

Compare the resale value of Hondas and Toyotas to GM cars. Who in their right mind would buy a GM?

I love my all-American Jeep, made in Canada.

170,000 miles, original clutch.

I was happy with my first Saturn. My second was a bit of a rattle trap. Consequently I shopped Toyota and Honda this time around.

What I'd like to see as a consumer is the quality of a Honda or Toyota with the buying experience of the first Saturn I bought. I researched it, test drove, then custom ordered with exactly the options I wanted. Try that with a Toyota.

What's weird about this is that for a short time there in the 90s, we were all expected to pretend that Saturn was the most exciting thing to come out of Detroit in this generation. But even those of us who never read the business section knew that the real excitement was at GMAC.

Yeah! If GM can't make a car that alot of people want to buy now, wait till the government starts running GM.

The only thing that will keep GM afloat is endless amounts of the American taxpayer dollars. It's going to be a real gost f*ck but the government will keep putting a positive and we're almost there spin on GM, while they suck dollars off the American taxpayer like water going over Niagara Falls.

There is no better thing to point to that government motors will fail than Saturn. Everybody already understands that Saturn is small cars, even though they have tried to scale up recently.

So? If you are going to start selling lots of small cars, why would you spin that brand off? Because the Unions and old-guard management never liked it. I will laugh my rear off if Penske turns the brand around, and makes it well thought of and profitable.

That still wont change the fact that I own stock in gov'mit motors... the Skoda of the west. OI!

The only thing that will make me want to buy from GM, Ford, or Chrysler is a model that gives me more car for my money than my 2004 Hyundai Sonata. If they can't do that, then they have no business asking me to visit their showrooms.

Hey Rad, I'm still driving my '96 SL2. 134,000 miles and it keeps humming along. My main complaint has been with the interior -- the driver's seat is pretty well shot, and a few years ago I had to have the roof liner and the sun shades replaced because of some weird rot that ate the cloth. Other than that, there's been nothing that you wouldn't expect in a 13-year-old car. I haven't even had any paint issues except for the rear spoiler. The engine burns a bit of oil, but I understand that all of the Saturn overhead-cam engines do that.

Speaking of which, that twin-cam four was, except for the oil burning, actually a very nice little engine -- hemi heads, 4 valves per cylinder, and very light. It seems like it could have been a real performer with a few mods, and I've always wondered why the tuners didn't jump all over it.

Huh? Comparing the new CTS with the likes of the BMW 328i and Mercedes-Benz C300, the Cadillac was the only model to receive an "Excellent" overall rating from the discerning publication. The citation will undoubtedly sit nicely in the Cadillac trophy cabinet, right next to the Motor Trend Car of the Year award it took a couple of months ago.
Consumer Reports ranks Cadillac CTS above BMW, Mercedes
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/05/i-consumer-reports-i-ranks-cadillac-cts-above-bmw-mercedes/

The last time Ford paid attention to quality was when Donald Peterson (Quality is Job One) was president of Ford. During his tenure Ford made more money in one quarter than the rest of the world's car makers combined. Let's hope history repeats itself.

Saturn was a stupid idea to begin with.

Early Saturns sold great. Lots of the early ones are still on the road. They just didn't innovate or keep making quality cars.

Early Saturns sold great. Lots of the early ones are still on the road. They just didn't innovate or keep making quality cars.

They were new and full of promise (and hype). I though they were ugly.

If GM could build a popular and reliable car with Saturn, why couldn't they build it with Chevrolet? Instead, they decided they needed yet another marquee in the portfolio.

Everyone here talks about how their Saturn runs forever but the interior was worn and falling apart. That's the experience I had with my Chevrolet. You couldn't kill it with a bullet, but the headliner was falling into my face, the temperature slide snapped off so I had to change the temperature with a screw driver, and the rear-view mirror fell off mid-commute. The car ran great but was an embarassment to have anyone ride in it.

On the other hand, the Honda I bought to replace it ran great and the interior parts didn't keep falling off.

By the way, rumor has it Penske is buying Saturn.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31131864/

I thought they were kinda ugly, too, but not too ugly to compete in their segment. Didn't Saturns start out being built without tons of Detroit oversight and without onerous UAW work rules? Probably the reason for the quality.

The Prius is far from perfect . . .

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-04-22/news/the-flip-side-of-the-perfect-prius/

You'll note that they don't compare the Cadillac to a Lexus, though.

Funny, that.

"Didn't Saturns start out being built without tons of Detroit oversight and without onerous UAW work rules?"

They did. The plant was unionized, but the contract was a vastly simplified version -- all of the work rules fit onto a little card that fit in your shirt pocket. There was a bunch of cross training, and the employees had monetary incentives to keep quality up and keep the Spring Hill plant in pristine shape. Saturn engineering was given leeway to design their own parts as needed, plus draw from the best of the GM parts catalog.

The beginning of the end was when they started selling the rebadged Opels as Saturns. Then, the union agreement changed to a standard Detroit-type agreement. Finally, GM took away engineering's leeway, and forced Saturn to start building with standard GM platforms and parts. At that point, there was nothing special about Saturn anymore -- it was just another GM brand, distinguished from Chevy or Pontiac only by marketing.

Roger Penske will turn the company around. It's going to be interesting to watch.

"It seems like it could have been a real performer with a few mods, and I've always wondered why the tuners didn't jump all over it."

Cousin Dave, it's because the 4 valves are small and not very well arranged; the castings don't allow much porting. Also, the transaxle won't accept gearing to use the elevated operating RPM possible with compact DOHC inline fours (Honda's S2000 turns over 8000 RPM). Somehow, Saturn didn't anticipate that people would want their small cars to be fast, like Evolutions, Imprezas and GTIs. And, oddly enough, Ford SVT Focuses.

The Ion - just before idiots ruined the company's unique vibe, rather than cash in on it - features the Ecotech engine, with no such limitations. One ran over 230MPH at Bonneville, with a surprising number of stock parts and careful aero mods.

Rad, thanks for the info! And Amy, sorry for turning your joint into a car blog. ;)

"The last time Ford paid attention to quality was when Donald Peterson (Quality is Job One) was president of Ford. During his tenure Ford made more money in one quarter than the rest of the world's car makers combined. Let's hope history repeats itself."

Oh, wow - I wish I'd seen this earlier! Ford is actually doing pretty well, but there is a story about this you should know!

See Google results for "The Deming Management Method".

W. Edwards Deming is the single individual responsible for Japanese involvement in world trade. His effort with the zaibatsu - the trade ministry - resulted in a sea change in quality controls. Within 2 years, every nation trading with japan was clamoring for trade protection.

Mr. Peterson was convinced to get Dr. Deming to lecture Ford Motor Company on his methods, which were essentially about process controls. The principle is that the worker cannot do better work than the limits of the process, and only those who set that process up can set the quality of the finished product. To sum up, you really can build a Space Shuttle with a monkey crew if you put the bananas in the right places.

My favorite moment in Deming history concerns his visit to the Ford plant. After a lecture, Dr. Deming was to be escorted on a tour of the plant. Accompanying him was Mr. Peterson and a vast retinue of official hangers-on: VPs, the Safety Program head and so forth. Oh, yes, Ford was proud of their safety record!

One of the first things the tour encountered was a safety poster, showing someone from the knees down, slipping, about to fall. The caption was, "Don't Slip On An Oil Slick". Dr. Deming saw this, and with one question, destroyed the entire Ford Motor Company's image of itself:

"Why do your factory floors have oil slicks?"

They were all speechless. The safety program was a sham. Process controls were non-existent, having been run once to set up the plant and then shut off.

"Quality Is Job One" resulted from that visit. Don't forget W. Edwards Deming!