Nobody Gets Knocked Up By The Bus Driver
Women, like one of many who e-mailed me, complain that porn "provides unrealistic images of women." Well, as my ev psych prof friend Catherine Salmon points out in Evolutionary Psychology, Public Policy and Personal Decisions, you can say the same about romance novels and men.
I was looking up Harlequin books for a column, and I was amazed by some of the top titles and descriptions, like Billionaire Prince, Pregnant Mistress and Pregnant with the Billionaire's Baby. Check out the description on that last one: "Sin wastes no time in tracking her down. The Sinclair heir, inheritor to his billions, will not be illegitimate!"
I've never been able to bring myself to read that stuff.
The closest I got was some creepy sexual Sleeping Beauty book by Anne Rice. D wants me to read it to him over the phone. He gets a dirty woman and I get a happy man who will be more likely to treat me well (he does anyway). Win-win.
Chicks need to stop whining and get creative and a little adventurous. I've found most guys aren't really into the porn type anyway...Like, I fantasize about being bad ass when I go to the shooting range. Zombies? POW! Terrorists. BANG! But in reality - would I really want to be chased by blood thirsty un-deads? No way, Jose. It's called a fantasy, and they're usually best when they stay fake.
Gretchen at June 16, 2009 7:59 AM
I just couldn't believe all these books about single girls who get knocked up and then have some billionaire marry them.
Amy Alkon at June 16, 2009 8:02 AM
Don't forget chick flicks ("Maid in Manhattan", "Twilight", "Pretty Woman") as the video versions of such female porn.
Nothing wrong with it, gals--enjoy!
But if you start thinking that is how your life really ought to be working out, well, that will likely become a problem for you.
Same principle applies to guys: when guys start thinking porn reflects any sort of reality they can access, their relationship troubles are just beginning.
Spartee at June 16, 2009 8:05 AM
I have always thought of Romance novels as porn for women. Mainly because women desire sex as much as men, but usually need an emotional involvement as well(there are always exceptions...). And in every one I read it is about the sensitive alpha male who steals the girl away from her boring normal guy.
Vampire novels are the 'hardcore' porn of Romance novels, as the lover offers an immortal life where she will never age and will alway be beautiful and desireable.
These novels are among the hottest sellers in the market. And they offer the same unrealistic expectations of men than porn does women. I have read a few of these novels and honestly, I can relate a bit to how a woman feels when she sees porn on a guy's machine. "How can I compete with that?". Well, how can I compete with a rich, powerful, handsome man with washboard abs and awesome skills in bed? Along with the other 99% of the male population I cannot. Just like I am unlikely to score with a beautiful, rich, sexually skilled, randy girl with a passion for experimentation!
Honestly, I have nothing against porn or romance novels so long as some perspective is used. And I refuse to feel bad about porn when I am between girlfriends (Beavis: heh heh heh... he said he is between two girls.. heh heh heh).
Screwtape at June 16, 2009 8:07 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/06/16/pregnant_slut_c.html#comment-1653911">comment from ScrewtapeCheck out all the Harlequin novels with "Billionaire" in the title:
http://tr.im/oFTJ
Amy Alkon at June 16, 2009 8:26 AM
I followed the links to those Harlequin Romances. They're so unbelievably stupid! As stupid as thinking that hot women really bang the pizza guy.
The heroines of those books do have something in common with porn actresses, though. They're all whores.
Tyler at June 16, 2009 8:29 AM
The 'rescued by a rich man' fantasy is a common trope in romance novels, but it is definitely rivaled by the 'inexorably drawn to the poor/socially inappropriate, yet ravishingly sexy, man' storyline. Of course, the women in these situations are usually from well-off families themselves, so perhaps the best conclusion to draw is that women are drawn to the tension created by passionate matches that cross social lines. I'd wager that this is because many women find it very appealing to be so desirable that the objects of their affections are willing to undertake great risk for the sake of being with them.
And if you're wondering how I know this, it's because, um, a FRIEND went through a romance novel stage when she was 13 and told me all about it. She may or may not be the same friend who marked all the sex scenes for re-reading...
CB at June 16, 2009 8:32 AM
Yes. romance novels put unrealistic expectations in womens' minds regarding men..
They actually expect a guy to be able to read their minds like in these romance novels.
I have literrally had to tell 2 ex-girlfriends,
"I can't read your mind. Just tell me."
As for porn- Women almost always critisize men not the women who "star" in the porn movies.
David M. at June 16, 2009 8:38 AM
The 'looks' argument against porn doesn't wash in my tub. The stars in mainstream films have 'looks' too, yet women flock to these motion pictures. My question ladies:Are you seeing sexual techniques that are just plain 'out' for you? Tom's suggestion:If you don't want to do an act and he does, Move On. He will never be happy.
tom.penry at June 16, 2009 8:39 AM
And if he doesn't want to do an act and you do, move on ladies! You'll never be happy.
I think the vampire stories are the ultimate romantic fantasy for some women, because there's all the longing, but there's no actual sex ever.
Chrissy at June 16, 2009 8:57 AM
heh, just an extension of "Smart Girls Marry Money", no? They don't mind being knocked up by the studly bus-driver as long as eventually somebody rich shows up to take them away.
Yes, novels like this are pr0n, but not covered under the same laws as pictures. Because, after all objectifying words aren't the same as pictures...
:shrug: the problem comes in dwelling too much on dreams and forgetting to live...
SwissArmyD at June 16, 2009 8:57 AM
I see that you stay on the classy side of the soapy literature, Amy. On my side, I visit used book stores filled with the trashy, bottom feeder of those novels. Over there, you have rows and rows of book who have shirtless adonis embracing a woman on their covers.
I wonder how a handsome Uber-Alpha male with ripped muscles and the sensibility of a Kindergarten teacher is less unrealistic than a beautiful woman with an unbridled, male-oriented sexuality.
Maybe the real resentment here is from the idea than, instead of using sexuality as a "Cloak & Dagger" method, some women chose to use it as a legitimate breadwinner. When the pornography industry was taboo, looking at the naked breasts was an event. Now, flashing breasts in public is barely offending.
Toubrouk at June 16, 2009 9:04 AM
"so perhaps the best conclusion to draw is that women are drawn to the tension created by passionate matches that cross social lines."
Perhaps the fantasy is about, first, economic security, and only second, romantic/sexual satisfaction. Once the security is obtained, the second is presumed to follow in the story.
For heroines in poverty, the fantasy is a rich man relieving them of life's economic burdens, and also giving them connubial bliss due to his prowess and good looks.
For heroines without economic security, the idea of a great-looking, smart, romantic, etc. guy willing to endure social humiliation and turmoil to woo her greatly affirms her desirability and attractiveness.
In each case, though, the economic security would seem to be the pivot upon which the story really turns. Once that is established, the sex can follow.
As an aside, note how the "getting-knocked-up-by-a-rich-man" fantasy is dependent on modern laws involving child support obligations. If rich men were not obligated under our law to pay anything at all to mothers of illegitimate children they sired, do you think such novels would be so widespread? Again, the concept of economic security--as enforced by law if the male is uncooperative--is the backdrop for the sex.
Anyway, enough freshman english bull session. Back to work...
Spartee at June 16, 2009 9:06 AM
correction: "For heroines *with* economic security..."
Spartee at June 16, 2009 9:09 AM
http://ebooks.eharlequin.com/4D99B258-1232-4D80-82DA-ED4F21685E13/10/126/en/SearchResults.htm?SearchID=14390037&Page=2
I read Forbes. Billionaires don't look like that.
Eric at June 16, 2009 9:13 AM
Heather Mallick reviewing a Nick Hornby novel experienced this realization:
Conan the Grammarian at June 16, 2009 9:17 AM
Just a quibble: Porn involves real people. Romance is just words on paper. A lot of the objection to porn is that real people can suffer in the production of it.
Still, fantasy is fantasy. I, too, had a FRIEND with a romance phase as a teenager. None of those book were about poor dudes. Even the "poor" dudes turned out to be secretly wealthy. And they put up with a ridiculous amount of bullshit.
MonicaP at June 16, 2009 9:22 AM
What do you think "Cinderella" is really all about? Poor girl trapped in poverty and misery rescued by rich prince. No word on how king and queen took the news that junior was shacking up with a scullery maid.
They still would.
It's the same base story. Only in the "knocked up by a billionaire" variant she gets to be a mother to an heir and she gets to be desirable to a rich prince.
Conan the Grammarian at June 16, 2009 9:25 AM
You have GOT to check out the reworking of these covers on romance novels:
http://worldoflongmire.com/features/romance_novels/
They're just too funny...and check out the readers' submissions, too!
o.O
Flynne at June 16, 2009 9:42 AM
What, porn doesn't provides unrealistic images of men? It was precisely this problem I had when I first meet my wife: she said she would only go out with me if I had a ten inch penis, as almost all men in porno films have. I had to tell her the brutal truth; I wasn't about to cut off two inches for any girl.
bernie at June 16, 2009 9:46 AM
That should be "met" my wife, not "meet". Probably a Freudian slip.
The part of having a twelve inch penis, on the pother hand, is a Fraudian slip.
bernie at June 16, 2009 9:49 AM
I had to tell her the brutal truth; I wasn't about to cut off two inches for any girl.
It's TOTALLY true that if you cut off a few inches and put it in a jar of water, you can grow another one. Think of the possibilities.
MonicaP at June 16, 2009 9:51 AM
I haven't read a romance novel since I was a teenager, but if I did, I'd probably just skip to the dirty parts. I don't really care about Sara the secretary's dramatic quest to lure in Donovan the millionaire adventurer. And, trying to trap some rich dude by getting pregnant doesn't sound very sexy to me.
ahw at June 16, 2009 10:06 AM
Yeah, and how about the fact that when people go to seances, they discover in a past life they were the King of France, or Cromwell? Nobody was ever a plumber in Philadelphia in the 1940s.
But it is fascinating to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-discover the old "men like boobs, women like money" concept.
i-hole at June 16, 2009 10:09 AM
Actually I view Soap Operas to also be porn for women possibly less real and more harmful than Harequin novels.
PS how many romance novels are basically about rape/being taken.
Joe at June 16, 2009 10:18 AM
Somehow during my days working at a small bookstore, I got tasked with the job of restocking the Harlequin's every month. I think it was my manager's way of balancing out "pain" and "perks" since I also got to play with the sci fi/fantasy section.
Anyway, it always amazed me how Harlequin recycles about 10 of the same ideas over and over and over...or at least so the titles seemed to indicate. There's definitely the "having the billionaire's baby," but also "marrying the boss," any number revolving around doctors/lawyers/high paying professionals, and of course cowboy/firemen/cop type novels. Basically, anything that can bring out both the handsome and rich archetypes in a guy.
Jdbar at June 16, 2009 10:33 AM
Flynne! Those are too funny!
~~~
I read a few of those novels when I was about 16. Then I found one without any actual sex in it & gave up, disgusted.
~~~
PS how many romance novels are basically about rape/being taken.
Exactly. Ick!
MeganNJ at June 16, 2009 10:37 AM
"Just a quibble: Porn involves real people. Romance is just words on paper. A lot of the objection to porn is that real people can suffer in the production of it. "
No, Monica, the porn actresses are PORTRAYING real people; the actors too. It's all an act, on both sides.
Aside form the "real porn" stuff some people post. Apparently that tends to be really awkward and funny.
Jim at June 16, 2009 10:43 AM
"What do you think "Cinderella" is really all about? Poor girl trapped in poverty and misery rescued by rich prince. No word on how king and queen took the news that junior was shacking up with a scullery maid."
One point about the girls in stories like Cinderella and Snow White. They actually started out life as princesses, who were reduced to drudgery by the bitches their fathers married after they lost their mothers.
WayneB at June 16, 2009 10:44 AM
No, Monica, the porn actresses are PORTRAYING real people; the actors too. It's all an act, on both sides.
The actors and actresses are real people, last I checked. That's the problem some people have with porn: That actual human beings are involved in the production.
I don't care all that much. I know my boyfriend has a stash. I told him I don't want to see it on the coffee table.
MonicaP at June 16, 2009 10:53 AM
Monica the porn people are fine. You don't need to worry about them. Actually you should be glad that they can occupy themselves making porn. Otherwise they'd be running amok in the general population.
Porn attracts a certain type of person, and many of these folks are a little screwed up, but porn didn't make them this way.
Manny Potemkin at June 16, 2009 11:06 AM
Harlequin just needs to add a little audio chip to their books, like those birthday cards.
That way when you turn to the love scenes you hear some cheesy wah-wah guitar music and you'll know what's about to happen.
"She turned, breasts heaving, and looked deeply into the billionaire movie star magazine model's eyes. She knew he wanted her (wacka-wacka waah wacka wacka)".
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 16, 2009 11:06 AM
Harlequin just needs to add a little audio chip to their books, like those birthday cards.
What about scratch and sniff?
I think I just skeeved myself out.
MonicaP at June 16, 2009 11:19 AM
"What about scratch and sniff?"
It could be paired with Sex Panther Cologne (you know, from Anchorman). Google it.
Gretchen at June 16, 2009 12:28 PM
"What about scratch and sniff?"
ewwwwww! Especially the ones with the muscle-bound man from the 1800s who just got off his horse from the ten day battle where he killed the antagonist! No toothbrush, no deoderant, no Tide, same socks...a little jock itch, maybe....
kg at June 16, 2009 12:46 PM
Sex Panther ...
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
It smells like bigfoot's dick
MeganNJ at June 16, 2009 12:49 PM
People get harmed making real movies. So people getting 'harmed' by porn is a stupid argument
lujlp at June 16, 2009 1:37 PM
@MeganNJ: "It smells like bigfoot's dick"
You know, this could get ickier, but I really don't see how.
Regarding the porn: A female coworker once told me about one of her female friends. Seems this friend, when she brought a boyfriend home, would pop in a porno tape, watch the acrobatics for a while, and then declare, "I want my man to be able to do the same thing to me." Talk about high expectations. Funny thing is, I felt vaguely insulted by the whole idea, but it occured to me that if I ever met this woman (and I never did), I probably would have gotten over it.
old rpm daddy at June 16, 2009 2:14 PM
"I want my man to be able to do the same thing to me."
Did she look like the female lead? =D
Spartee at June 16, 2009 2:18 PM
kg, and consider the knights of the Middle Ages... once they got inside that armor, they were in it, for days at a time... *all* body functions had to be performed in the armor, since there was no way to get out...
Cousin Dave at June 16, 2009 2:33 PM
"It could be paired with Sex Panther Cologne (you know, from Anchorman). Google it."
Made from the pulverized skull of Herman Cortes, my ass. I OWN the skull of Cortes and I use it for a paperweight.
Got a great deal on it, too. Right off of downtown San Diego. This guy had everything. Pieces of saints, about half of the one true cross, and (I'm not kidding) a slice of pizza left over from Sherman's march on Atlanta.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at June 16, 2009 3:14 PM
"Sin wastes no time in tracking her down. Because every knocked-up booty call of Sin's gets a visit from his lawyer ... and his cousin - a large, swarthy man named Sid, who doesn't talk much and has interesting tattoos."
Pirate Jo at June 16, 2009 3:45 PM
> It's TOTALLY true that if you
> cut off a few inches and put
> it in a jar of water, you can
> grow another
How does she know this?
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at June 16, 2009 3:59 PM
> doesn't talk much and has
> interesting tattoos
A handy index.
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at June 16, 2009 4:01 PM
I think that this is what you're going for Crid - http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=4447
Jack at June 16, 2009 4:12 PM
"No, Monica, the porn actresses are PORTRAYING real people; the actors too. It's all an act, on both sides."
Here's an explanation, NSFW, duh. With some surprises.
"It smells like bigfoot's dick"
Clearly, someone like me has nothing new to show you!
"I want my man to be able to do the same thing to me."
Was it Foxworthy or Engvall? --
Her: "I wish my guy would do that."
Him: "I wish I could do that to the girl in the video!"
Radwaste at June 16, 2009 4:13 PM
"consider the knights of the middle ages...once they got inside that armor...there was no way to get out"
Harlequin can fix that. Just give every knight a trusty squire to help him in & out of his shiny armor, and regale his Ladyship with stirring tales of her Lord's feats of valor.
Don't know what they'd do with smelly cowboys, though.
Martin at June 16, 2009 4:14 PM
busted! Thout shalt nots be link-theivin'
Crid [cridcridatgmail] at June 16, 2009 4:27 PM
Would those be the real people who jump the pizza boy or the ones who "do" the basketball team?
Him: "Soon as you cross your ankles behind your head, I'll get started."
Conan the Grammarian at June 16, 2009 4:49 PM
"...the porn actresses are PORTRAYING real people; the actors too. It's all an act, on both sides."
A good friend of mine is a porn star (Donny Long - www.donnylong.com ) He has an enormous, probably 10"-12" dick. I knew him before he became a "star".
I've also met a few of his porn star girlfriends and friends, and heard enough through his stories and experiences that I can tell you it is a disgusting business.
For one, males don't usually use condoms. It's too "unrealistic". Instead, they are tested for HIV and other STDs every two or three months. Still, a male porn star just recently passed along HIV to several porn actresses that he did scenes with before it was discovered he'd contracted it.
Most of the girls seem to have had really bad home lives as children, including abuse and molestation. They often have drug problems. These are troubled, vulnerable people.
Almost all the males use viagra. Donny is only around 28, but because there's all sorts of stopping and starting - taking still shots, etc - even the young guys have to use viagra to stay hard enough to film scenes.
Much of the work is really degrading to women, and the talk behind the scenes about them is too. They're commodities. Donny hires women from porn agencies and pays them $250 to give him blow jobs, which he films, then puts them on the internet for the whole world to see. Once it's out there, she can't ever get it back.
I thought it was kind of funny and cool at first when Donny got involved with porn. Given his endowment, it seemed like a natural way for him to make a living, but now, I really have no respect for the industry.
The difference between porn and romance novels is that no real person is getting hurt or demeaned to produce a romance novel.
And, although the escapism/fantasy element is the same, women don't usually lock themselves in a room and masturbate for hours to romance novels. We'll read them openly, get turned on, a little tingly and hot, then have sex with our guy. It's innocent foreplay.
Yet, many men these days are really addicted to porn. My ex used to spend hours every night, often in the middle of the night, viewing it. He still had sex with me, and I never really felt jealous of him looking at other women, but there is an impact on the relationship. I'm not even sure how to explain it...a distancing effect. And I've never heard of that happening with women and romance novels.
lovelysoul at June 16, 2009 6:35 PM
Lest we think there is no effect at all, of reading or watching Hollywood romance has no effect at all, you should see the research done by Johnson and Holmes http://www.attachmentresearch.org/pdfs/Johnson%20&%20Holmes%20Comm%20Quarterly%20draft.pdf
It does have an effect and it is measureable.
Zen at June 16, 2009 9:54 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/06/16/pregnant_slut_c.html#comment-1654052">comment from Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimersa slice of pizza left over from Sherman's march on Atlanta.
Thanks, Gog - I needed that.
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 1:11 AM
Thank you Flynne, those were hilarious!
crella at June 17, 2009 3:50 AM
BTW, what's with the 'billionaire' bit? Plain old millionaires aren't good enough anymore? :-D
crella at June 17, 2009 3:53 AM
"BTW, what's with the 'billionaire' bit? Plain old millionaires aren't good enough anymore?"
Inflation. Everything's going up.
Oops, with the talk about romance novels and porn, I guess that was a bad pun?
WayneB at June 17, 2009 6:27 AM
Lovelysoul's personal testimony allows me to use her as an interesting case study, I think.
"Women don't ... lock themselves in a room and masturbate for hours to romance novels. We'll read them openly, get turned on, a little tingly and hot, then have sex with our guy. It's innocent foreplay."
Given her judgemental, negative view of male-oriented erotic material ("...I can tell you it is a disgusting business." "I really have no respect for the industry."), guys in her life quickly discern her disapproval, and withdraw from her presence when consuming this material. A natural response, I posit.
"Yet, many men these days are really addicted to porn."
Again, a judgemental, disapproving tone, but additionally male interest in visual images is a disease, an "addiction". She pathologizes (without training) male sexual expression that does not conform to her subjective standards.
"My ex used to spend hours every night, often in the middle of the night, viewing it."
See comments above. The pattern is getting clearer.
"He still had sex with me, and I never really felt jealous of him looking at other women, but there is an impact on the relationship. I'm not even sure how to explain it...a distancing effect. And I've never heard of that happening with women and romance novels."
So, here is my theory: the emotional distance stemmed in part from her disapproval of his porn, while viewing hers as something enjoyable, sex-positive and a perfectly acceptable way to enhance her pleasure. She does not allow that her porn could cause problems, since that is all harmless fun.
But his stuff? Well, it is made in an evil way. (Complete with an anecdote telling us that women are paid to give blow jobs when making porn. Newsflash.) And that the addiction (again, pathologizing the non-pathological) some men suffer from, that causes emotional distance with women.
Sure, I have my gripes with the pornography industry, and the sex worker business too. Anyone who watched a gal go through that world would.
But Lovelysoul's bias is similar to that of a depressing contingent of contemporary society. Put simply, male sexuality is delegitimized and even pathologized by claiming its expression is destructive and harmful. Female sexual expression, by contrast, is view as "better" and more positive and affirming. The moralizing denigration of male pornography and the self-satisfied smugness of the naughty-but-nice nature of romance novels is a reflection of this.
In short, she is a prude when it comes to male sexuality, does not see it, and worse still, she thinks she is enlightened on these issues.
Next up, I explain how Crid's views are Trotskyite in their origin! (I'm kidding all the way at this point.)
Spartee at June 17, 2009 8:56 AM
Some women enjoy watching porn. How does that fit into the cute and fuzzy female sexuality that seems to be acceptable to those women who sneer at men and their porn 'addition'? It's these same women who like to judge other women as promiscuous if these women enjoy sex and aren't deluding themselves that they're in love every time they do it. In their cutesy fluffy world view, it's A-OK to fuck for money, but not for fun.
I think it's pretty funny that these women act so self-righteous and morally superior when they're basically prostitutes who get turned on by the thought of being bought & paid for.
Chrissy at June 17, 2009 9:37 AM
I've got a question, maybe you all may be able to answer. Isn't there some sort of cliche where women are supposed to be 'good' and not really supposed to have sex for fun, or enjoy it as much? What I mean is, women enjoy sex quite a bit, but they don't go on about it as much as men do because "That isn't what good girls do". Is it just me or is this a stigma that actually exists?
Amax at June 17, 2009 9:45 AM
Actually, it's been my observation that if you get knocked up by a billionaire you're in a Romance Novel, but if you're knocked up by a bus driver, you're probably on the NYT Bestseller list.
Like, The World According to Garp
Or, The Human Stain.
Envy= Harlequin
Pity= Literary prizes.
Lynne at June 17, 2009 9:57 AM
Oh, c'mon, Spartee, I hope you're kidding. :)I'm in no way a prude. I think porn can be great fun, and I loved watching it myself, but after seeing so much of the ugly business behind it....
It's kind of like becoming a vegetarian. You may still LOVE meat and wish you could eat it, but your awareness that your consumption is actually hurting innocent animals mitigates your desire to support the practice.
I saw one of Donny's "actresses" the other day, stumbling out of a car, looking like Courtney Love on a bad day...ready for her "closeup" (blow job). You can't help but feel a bit repulsed by this if you have a grain of sensititivity.
It's fine when you only view it from the consumer perspective - the pleasure people will have watching it - but the retail end is NOT pretty.
And my ex's obsession was for rape porn - young girls, looking underage (he swore they were all 18!), getting brutally attacked. That isn't healthy...especially night after night...but in my desire not to appear "prudish" or "disapproving", I supported this obsession.
One can take approval too far, and I think I did. It's not wrong to have limits about certain things. I was raised to be a real liberal, artsy, feel-good, anything goes kind of girl, which is what made me reluctant to disapprove, but, in retrospect, I should have.
Porn has nothing inherently to do with male sexuality. Male sexuality existed long before porn flicks. In the past, live women provided the visual stimulation, and/or imagination had to be used.
As long as it doesn't get out of hand, so to speak, I think porn is alright, but when it starts replacing real sexual interaction too often (assuming that's available), then it moves into an addiction.
lovelysoul at June 17, 2009 10:03 AM
How does she know this?
All feminists have bits of male genitalia in a jar. Along with the secret handshake, it's how we identify each other.
MonicaP at June 17, 2009 10:45 AM
Amax, in my experience, women having sex for fun is still frowned upon. If you are a woman who has a healthy appetite, you tend to be very discrete about your activities, and very careful who you tell, because the knee-jerk reaction is judgement, from both men and women (especially women). Girls are still raised that way, and religion doesn't help.
Honestly, for a guy, which is worse, having some girl tell him she loves him after the first time they do it, or having a girl enjoy herself with none of the emotional BS?
And just for the record, I'm not bitter, whatever women want to do, screw for fun, money or love, it's none of my business. I'm just frustrated with dealing with other people's projections of their issues on me.
Chrissy at June 17, 2009 11:36 AM
"Almost all the males use viagra. Donny is only around 28, but because there's all sorts of stopping and starting - taking still shots, etc - even the young guys have to use viagra to stay hard enough to film scenes."
Lovelysoul, in gay porn they have a crew member called the fluffer who tkaes care of this.
"Much of the work is really degrading to women, and the talk behind the scenes about them is too. They're commodities. "
Well isn't that how heterosexuality works anyway, all too often? He pays for dinner and drinks, for "the pleasure of her company". He had better be a "good provider". He had better be able to "keep her in the style she deserves". That work is pretty degrading to both parties, both to the prostitute, oops, girlfiend/wife, and to the man who is nothing but a goodies machine.
And by the way, Spartee nailed you pardon the expression, however much you truy to wiggle off the hook. You make derogatory remarks about men's pornography and sexuality and excuse women's pornography. Simple as that.
So could you apply this:
"As long as it doesn't get out of hand, so to speak, I think porn is alright, but when it starts replacing real sexual interaction too often (assuming that's available), then it moves into an addiction."
to romantic notions of how a real relationship is supposed to develop and carry on? Do you see how reading Jane Austen (let's not waste time on the obvious trash; let's move onto the the less obvious but more respectable trash) and expecting real life to conform.
Jim at June 17, 2009 11:41 AM
Jim, your view is very pessimistic. There's a vast difference between a woman being treated to dinner and fucked for money.
And I'm not defending romance novels. My point is that no one is harmed in the making of them. Sure, they are trite and silly, and provide escapism, but the overall themes are about love, redemption, forgiveness, etc. I think most women know their guys are not going to be like those characters, any more than he'll be like George Clooney or Brad Pitt.
Should we not be allowed to watch movies or TV shows because we might compare the gorgeous, buff leading man to you?
Everybody's entitled to some escapist fun - you guys watch sports all the time, for intance - and that's what books have always been about. But when an industry preys on exploiting vulnerable women for money, that's very different. Anyone with a conscience has to stop and consider whether they really want to be supporting that.
Most people haven't had the view of it I have, since Donny was my friend and got into that industry. Beforehand, I had no idea what was involved, and often our perspectives change as we become more aware of the truth.
lovelysoul at June 17, 2009 12:05 PM
Thanks for the info Chrissy, it did occur to me that women with a healthy libido can sometimes be inbetween a rock and a hard place.
"I think most women know their guys are not going to be like those characters, any more than he'll be like George Clooney or Brad Pitt"
Zen posted a link, it is actually a good read in regards to some romantic themes. Worth a look if you think they are completely harmless.
Amax at June 17, 2009 12:50 PM
No good thread is complete without an illustration of the problem by XKCD.
But if you want a more serious problem than whether your current flame is too fond of the visuals, consider the situation when their ex looks better than you do - even if it's just a memory.
Radwaste at June 17, 2009 2:42 PM
The study Zen linked would seem to support the idea that excessive porn viewing might make people unhappy with their sex lives too. Watching ultra atractive, well-endowed porn stars having unrealistically hot sex doesn't seem any tamer to me than reading about a handsome billionaire sweeping you off your feet.
Actually, the likelihood of a man encountering temptingly hot females throughout the course of a day is probably a lot higher than a woman's chances of bumping into a billionaire (most of whom look like toads anyway).
That said, I think if a couple has a strong relationship, with good communication and a satisfying sex life, no real harm is done by any of it.
The REASON why someone looks at porn or escapes into a novel is really more important than the content.
lovelysoul at June 17, 2009 3:11 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/06/16/pregnant_slut_c.html#comment-1654238">comment from lovelysoulCatherine writes (via a study) that it isn't just porn viewing but seeing attractive women in general that makes men less committed to your partner. So...men should walk around blindfolded to please all the women's studies ladies?
Amy Alkon at June 17, 2009 3:17 PM
´My point is that no one is harmed in the making of them´
Who knows,
What made me want to hurl was reading on Harlequin´s site about how one of the authors was such a hopeless romantic.
B***s**t,
These people know all too well how to milk this big teet.
Maybe better than some porn actrices know how to milk a big...
Rob at June 17, 2009 3:19 PM
Well, the only harm that could exist in creating a romance novel would be to the writer herself (usually a woman) for all the brain cells she might lose writing one.
But it isn't the same as paying some 21 year old meth addict a little bit of money to have herself exposed and fucked in front of millions.
This is somebody's daughter. She has a right to dignity and not being lured into doing something that will likely effect her forever.
Even if you find porn fun, and refuse to stop viewing it, realize that it comes to you at a cost like that.
Playboy, Penthouse, etc, aren't so bad. They have protective measures in place, and the women are, of course, very well-paid. It's more like modeling. But the lower-tier of the internet porn industry is very exploitive and ugly.
lovelysoul at June 17, 2009 3:55 PM
No doubt lovelysoul. I agree that excessive watching of porn is detrimental to any relationship, however, the whole attitude that women may have an idealistic expectation of relationships, how far reaching do you think that idea may be? I already know of one divorce due to the idea that the husband didn't 'make her happy' and another woman who is looking for her 'soulmate' and I wonder how many more there are due to these ideas.
Porn must be done in secrect, you can read a romance novel right there in a subway as it is 'accepted' and not wrong. Consider it. I'm not saying you are wrong with Porn, it can be very destructive to the actresses, to be sure, but they did enter it willingly.
Amax at June 17, 2009 6:10 PM
"...however, the whole attitude that women may have an idealistic expectation of relationships, how far reaching do you think that idea may be?"
Amax, I don't know. I can only say that my own idea was way too limited. My relationship now is so far superior to anything I've known, or could've imagined, and anything I ever read in a romance novel (accounting for practicalities, of course).
So, you can ask, "How far reaching can you go?" Nobody would've said "the moon" before the 1960s, but that was possible.
I suspect most women imagine having what I have - a positive relationship with a man who speaks softly, makes love to them gently, doesn't yell and scream at them for any reason, and backs them up - is on their "team"- no matter what happens. He never makes her feel "second best" to another woman.
That may be considered too far reaching by some, but I know it's possible, so I would encourage any woman to shoot for that. If she doesn't have that sort of relationship, then she probably should. And if that's not the sort of relationship you are giving her, then it probably should be.
lovelysoul at June 17, 2009 7:34 PM
"Jim, your view is very pessimistic. There's a vast difference between a woman being treated to dinner and fucked for money. "
Oh, really? Sex is sex and prostitution is prostitution. Tranfer of value for sexual favors is the basic definition of prostitution in just about every jurisdicion in this country. It certainly is at th efederla leve. Paying money so a woman will spend tiem with you fits that definition. This is nothing new; that is exactly what was so traviata about La Traviata and every other courtesan of her day.
My point is not that a wonan becomes a whore for accepting a drink. My point is that romance novels are every bit as objectifying and distortive of normal relationships as gang bang flicks are. And it is disengenuous and hypocritical to invent some distinction between them.
Jim at June 17, 2009 10:00 PM
Jim:
Jim, you don't pay a prostitute for sex. You don't pay her to spend time with you.
You pay her to leave when you are done, and to have the discretion to keep quiet.
brian at June 17, 2009 10:26 PM
I hear what you are saying and kudos to you for finding a satisfying relationship. What you have described is indeed realistic and should be the goal of any woman in searching for a relationship. My point is that where you stopped is where the romance genre begins. Grand gestures of love fairly regularly, the PERFECT partner who does nothing wrong and can seemingly read your mind and figure out what you desire before you do, the amazingly limitless excitement of the relationship which assumes that no work ever needs to be put forth from the participants as they ride off into the sunset, happily ever after.
This thought has crossed my mind; maybe as a guy I’m not sure how hard it is for a woman to meet our physical expectations, however maybe as a woman, you aren’t quite sure of some of the romantic expectations some other women may have. There are indeed some women out there who believe that a real lasting relationship should be an eternal date where no issues crop up which actually requires hard work to fix or the novelty of the relationship ever runs thin. My co-worker was cheated on by his gf because their 2 year relationship ‘got too hard’ the novelty had worn off you see and of course, that would mean that he wasn’t the one, so she traded him in.
I agree with Jim’s point completely, as I have come across people who have made some very large and permanent mistakes by literally thinking that their life should follow a Harlequin Romance novel. Everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt, normal women don’t look like life sized Barbie dolls, and life isn’t a re-enactment of The Notebook.
Amax at June 18, 2009 9:54 AM
The other side of this whole "relationships are work" idea is that they shouldn't be like hauling large rocks all the time. My friend told me, about a year before my divorce: "All relationships are hard. No relationship should be this hard."
If you feel like you've been sentenced to 50 years of hard emotional labor, it's time for it to be over.
I think I've solved that problem by finding a relationship that doesn't require so much work in the first place.
MonicaP at June 18, 2009 10:33 AM
This is fitting, from Dear Prudence....
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1740037387?bctid=26215232001
lovelysoul at June 18, 2009 10:36 AM
Amax, I agree that some women have totally unrealistic expectations about real relationships. Almost all of us do when we're younger. I'm not sure that comes entirely from romance novels, romantic movies, fairy tales, or just inexperience.
Some men, also, may assume that sex is going to be like it is in a porn video. They'll be disappointed when their girlfriends don't look like Jenna Jameson naked and crawl all over them begging for hot sex.
Most of us, as we mature, get over that and realize that there's fiction and then there's real life...and that real life can be much better, more fulfilling than fiction. You just have to look for that maturity in the people you get involved with.
lovelysoul at June 18, 2009 10:46 AM
"Jim, you don't pay a prostitute for sex. You don't pay her to spend time with you."
Brian, I am just quoting the legal definition.
"You pay her to leave when you are done, and to have the discretion to keep quiet."
No, that's a wife. It's called alimony.
"If you feel like you've been sentenced to 50 years of hard emotional labor, it's time for it to be over."
Bingo, Monica. Making a marriage propsal on bended knee is bullshit enough, but some on both sides of the great divide think it's a model for marriage itself. And then there is the other stupid script that blames a woman if the home falls apart. It's not supposed to be a life sentence at hard labor.
Jim at June 18, 2009 4:47 PM
Ignoring for a moment the obvious reason why handicapped and physically deformed people use prostitutes, and as true as it may be that paying her to leave may be a small part of the attraction to prostitutes, the real, real reason a man is compelled to use prostitutes (if he's honest enough to admit it) is that a prostitute will actually do whatever he asks.
There are things that a man may want to do that his wife may not like or want to do. That is usually not a problem with prostitutes.
A Mafia guy may only want his goomah blowing him because he wouldn't want his wife to kiss his children with those lips.
I'm sure there's a guy out there who can only get off if he slaps a woman's face with his penis; usually wives balk at this, although I suspect if he slipped his wife 300 bucks beforehand she might be more amenable.
bernie at June 19, 2009 9:05 AM
Lets see, I've been with the same woman for over 8 years and it hasn't been any work at all. If your marriage turns into work your doing it wrong.
FREE at June 21, 2009 12:20 PM
Jag vet inte vad jag ska säga förutom att jag har njutit behandlingen. Pleasant blogg
stickbeskrivningar strumpor at June 2, 2011 2:19 AM
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