"Most American Grads Are Unemployable"
Those are the words of a top Indian CEO in the high-tech industry, Vineet Nayar, of HCL Technologies, from a story by Rob Preston in Information Week:
Many American grads looking to enter the tech field are preoccupied with getting rich, Vineet said. They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa, and Ireland to spend their time learning the "boring" details of tech process, methodology, and tools--ITIL, Six Sigma, and the like.As a result, Vineet said, most Americans are just too expensive to train--despite the Indian IT industry's reputation for having the most exhaustive boot camps in the world. To some extent, he said, students from other highly developed countries fall into the same rut.
In an interview following his presentation, Vineet said HCL and other employers need to have a greater influence on the tech curricula of U.S. colleges and universities, to make them more real-world and rigorous. For the most part, he said, those institutions haven't been receptive to such industry partnerships.
thanks, Deirdre!
I'm not surprised. My boyfriend is a programmer, and he says he dreads interviewing recent tech grads. He'd rather hire someone with a high school diploma and a few years of real-world experience.
MonicaP at June 22, 2009 8:06 AM
Based on the people I've dealt with on tech support calls, I wouldn't do too much crowing about the impressiveness of Indian training methods. They stamp out living flowcharts, all drilled to repond to certain keywords like ELIZA programs, or well-trained collies.
Their programmers are fast and efficient, but you'll be hard-pressed to get a single independent thought out of them. They require exhaustive specs, and they've bee trained to follow them To The Letter, and without question. Typos included.
It's those independint thinking Americans who will come up with the innovations that we'll eventually send to India to mass-produce.
Vinnie Bartilucci at June 22, 2009 8:13 AM
Sweeping statements are unlikely to be true, but I too am dissatisfied with the output of American universities. In my opinion graduates should know enough to bring value to an employer starting on day one. That doesn't mean that they know everything, or are experts; obviously that's not going to happen. Unfortunately, too many people choose a field of study poorly, and as a result have a great deal of difficulty supporting themselves and paying off their school loans.
Speaking of what people should know, high school graduates should be equipped to keep themselves alive after graduation. This means that they should know how to earn money, to acquire and maintain housing and transportation, to balance a budget and so on.
Pseudonym at June 22, 2009 8:25 AM
what they have to work hard and learn stuff? I was under the impression there would be no math on this test...
We scare off interns all the time when they figure out just how hard this IT stuff is...
But, to the point of innovation, yes... but why so absolute? Hard work isn't removed from innovation. The thing is, if you are looking to get rich, are you an innivator? Or is innovation too messy, too time consuming? I've been a maint. programmer for a long time, and I have seem some astounding speghetti code from lazy people who just want to move on. From the company's standpoint having me spend day trying to figure out a recurring error, that slipped through testing is quite expensive. If the code is bad, it takes even longer.
Don't confuse innovation with laziness...
SwissArmyD at June 22, 2009 8:47 AM
"In my opinion graduates should know enough to bring value to an employer starting on day one."
Those people are available. They are called "experienced workers", and they usually cost much more than recent grads.
Every place I ever worked thought they should be able to hire young, new people who can immediately perform like a 15 year veteran, while still costing a fraction of the veteran's wages. No matter how many times they hired a 25 year old, and then got angry at the lack of experience, the employers still seemed to believe that it was the fault of the 25 year olds, not their lousy hiring expectations that simply did not match the market.
A related issue was employers who thought they should get superstars at donkey wages. They were kind of like the pimply-faced kid with a beat up VW bug and a lousy job thinking he should get an Ana Faris look alike, because he is special.
Spartee at June 22, 2009 9:36 AM
Indian programmers suck. No concept of logic or independent thought, which are the most important tools to programming, and unfortunately cannot be taught. US resources far outperform their cheaper sub continent competition. The sooner corporate America realizes those cheap resources are not only inferior, nut actually cost more in the long term, the quicker blowhards like this will go away.
ron at June 22, 2009 9:38 AM
Spar - that's because the hiring requirements are written by the HR department and clueless managers. The managers want people with vertical skill sets so they won't be able to leave, and HR likes those because they can pay less.
You've been told "you're experience is irrelevant" or "you're overqualified", yes?
I remember when Java was new, there were ads looking for "Java programmer, must have 5 years experience".
How the hell do you have 5 years experience with a new language? And no, they weren't looking for "relevant experience", they wanted Java.
brian at June 22, 2009 9:40 AM
You really need to read the links below. It is truly scary what they turn out as Computer Science grads.
We have a young lady that is a "programmer" with a computer science degree from a local liberal arts college. My suggestion is for her to find a more compatible position to her abilities, like quick delivery food preparation services.
Why Can't Programmers.. Program?
www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000781.html
Separating Programming Sheep from Non-Programming Goats
www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000635.html
Jim P. at June 22, 2009 9:55 AM
> Those people are available. They are
> called "experienced workers", and
> they usually cost much more than
> recent grads.
I suspect that's true. I mean, golly, what a surprise to hear that a large-ish business owner can't find a whole bunch of sophisticated, hardworking young Americans who'll work for peanuts. Stop the presses!
(That's probably the last time I'll ever use that expression sarcastically... Children won't know what it means. 'Uncle Crid, did you used to read your news on paper?')
This is about as much a surprise as hearing from a woman in her late thirties that all the really marriageable guys are taken, or hearing from a mechanic that people don't change their oil enough.
> No concept of logic or
> independent thought, which are
> the most important tools to
> programming, and unfortunately
> cannot be taught. US resources
> far outperform
I'm not sure I want anything more for the future of my country than to believe that what you're saying is true. China and India and Indonesia (OK, not Indonesia) are doing so much to get their shit together, but they can't seem to dominate any global markets. I can't name a Chinese car or an Indian software firm, and none of them make movies worth watching. I want to think that America's dick-swinging independent spirit –with the pivotal role of an individual identity in the outcome of events, as so often depicted in Hollywood– will continue to allow us to lead and strengthen the world.
Shit, man, we're owed props. We've never gotten the respect we deserve for putting a man on the moon, and that happened when I was a little boy!
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at June 22, 2009 10:03 AM
PS Vinnie – Best of luck with the daughter
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at June 22, 2009 10:03 AM
" They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa, and Ireland to spend their time learning the "boring" details of tech process ..."
I wouldn't pin this just on US tech grads. It's a bigger problem of Generation Y. We had a consultant do a presentation to all managers in my company a few years ago about dealing with Gen Y. This is the generation raised to believe that they are "special" and that everyone gets a trophy whether you win or not.
They are not willing to put in the time to learn a job and/or pay their dues. They need "meaningfull" work. Or they will quit and work somewhere else.
That presentation was a few years ago. One good thing about this recession is the needed slap in the face these Gen Y spoiled brats are getting.
sean at June 22, 2009 10:08 AM
Whatever.
Nayar is basically advocating that the US should reorient its academic computer and information sciences, and engineering, programs to a strictly vocational model. The rest of his insults are intended simply to humiliate us into accepting this fate. But we already have vocational IT training available in the forms of cert training and a variety of associates and professional IT degrees.
What he really wants is to pay US college grads as though they have vocational degrees.
The Indian system that he's promoting can be accomplished using a 'boot camp' format because it's strictly product and solution based. So yes, one of their graduates may arrive at work with a thorough knowledge of the various configurations of SQL Server 2008. But that's about all they know.
Also I've worked with a number of very bright and well qualified Indian engineers who'd left India specifically to escape the likes of Nayar and the slave galleys of HCL. The Indian system tends to lose a lot of its better talent because it is so stifling.
Jack at June 22, 2009 10:59 AM
More food for thought:
http://open.salon.com/blog/kent_pitman/2008/11/20/college_an_overpriced_monopoly
My Indian programmer buddy tells me that one of the problems they had back home was that the students are so concerned about ranking - meaning you have to beat everyone else - they will do whatever they can to achieve it. Including make their classmates look bad in order to puff themselves up. This is exactly the opposite of what you want from someone working on a team. Fortunately my co-worker understands this and is a sweetheart.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 10:59 AM
"They are not willing to put in the time to learn a job and/or pay their dues. They need "meaningfull" work. Or they will quit and work somewhere else."
Sean, dude. Shut up.
I work in tech (FIX protocol "specialist" if you will). I work for peanuts. I have a solid degree in economics from Bentley College (now University). I guess I'm lucky my job hasn't been outsourced to a zombie reading a script.
My generation, that you seem to enjoy so much, is graduating with more debt and has higher expectations of it than any previous generation. No, you can't make it out there today unless you have some freakishly unique idea that someone wants - those are the Bill Gates type of stories. The rest of us are eeking by while paying $400/month in student loan debt and still living with mom. My fiance's monthly education obligations are almost a grand and he is giddy with relief that he hasn't gotten laid off yet.
I could go back to school if I saved the money in the bank but after I pay my loans and throw $300 into retirement savings (b/c the AWFUL gen Y won't see a dime back from this government. Ever.) there is just enough to pay for my car.
For those who are 30+ and can't stand gen Y... those "special" kids in my generation are this way thanks to parents who were afraid to teach them that life comes with losses - and send all the kids home from the soccer field w/ a trophy. Instead of jacking off to your insults check out the parents skills of your peers. They fail. Really - we want everything and want it now? Why? I really want to know what people like sean think. Did we genetically mutate to be emotionally dependent and spoiled?
Gretchen at June 22, 2009 11:02 AM
All the comments above about Indian programmers are absolutely true in my experience. I think what this CEO is really saying is that he can't get Americans to follow orders, which is probably true.
Asians & Indians don't lack brain power, it's that they have to work in a strict heirarchichal structure because their cultures ingrain it in them. I was interviewed at one job by some Chinese grad students about our company development process. It was really difficult to get across to them how freewheeling and independent that process was. They only wanted to know what the exact chain of command was, and well, there wasn't one! It worked because each developer figured out what was best to do and we batted it around until there was a concessus. Asians just don't seem to work like that. They need a rule book to follow.
Todd Fletcher at June 22, 2009 11:05 AM
Oh and yeah I'm not done - I've looked around for more "fulfilling" work but I've stayed here b/c the work is reliable and I need health insurance. I am 24 and the vast majority of people I know, including coworkers, is under the age of 30.
We complain that it's not fulfilling because...it isn't...We're putting in our time but instead of getting raises we get the old "you're just lucky to have a job" b.s.
"One good thing about this recession is the needed slap in the face these Gen Y spoiled brats are getting."
You're the one who needs a slap. Seriously. Ass.
Gretchen at June 22, 2009 11:09 AM
As long as we understand that we are talking about broad generalizations, the Indian guy is right - American CS graduates are often useless. Vinnie is right too: Indian programmers work like demons, following rote scripts, producing uncreative, hacked together software that sorta kinda works only because they poured so damn much sweat into it.
There are two problems with American CS graduates:
First, computer science students come in three broad categories: 10% have the capability to develop software. Being a developer takes certain mental qualities - mainly, the ability to create and understand complex logical constructs.
Maybe another 40% should work in IT as admins, QA people, testers, designers, or somesuch. When it comes to programming, they shouldn't do more than simple scripts. But they have essential skills in related areas.
Which brings us to the second problem: what do you do with the remaining 50%? They do not belong in IT. They may think computers are cool, but they are incapable of a sufficienty deep understanding to be useful. It would be a kindness to fail them out in their first year, so that they find another career field where they can be successful.
You can't do that in today's schools. You cannot fail anyone unless they are really, truly, awfully terrible. So these poor souls are allowed to muddle along, collect their diploma, and some poor clueless company hires them. If they stick with IT, they spend their careers wondering why they only get the shit jobs. Or - in every developer's vision of hell - they get put into project management, where they can make uninformed decisions and impossible demands because they just never quite understand...
bradley13 at June 22, 2009 11:26 AM
Sorry - the assertion that American-trained people are "more creative/innovative" does not answer the original claim.
The "creative/innovative" Americans are the ones who invested time to get to geekly levels of knowledge. You don't "innovate" in a vacuum - you have to know the programming language, underlying science, etc.
American scientific/mathematical education is pathetic. And many Americans - even those in scientific/rational fields - often are allowed to shy away from learning things in depth.
Ben-David at June 22, 2009 11:34 AM
What Generation Y is going through right now is pretty similar to what my generation (X) went through in the early 90's. People who were clueless about how bad the economy was didn't understand why we couldn't graduate and make more than $7.00 an hour. Those who didn't have degrees derided us for having wasted our money, and those who already made more scoffed and said we must be doing something wrong. My own mother was one of those people, and the six months I had to live with my parents after graduation were without question the worst six months of my life. How do you explain 'IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID!' to someone who is proud of never paying attention to the news?
I have no desire whatsoever to see Generation Y go through the same crap. It sucks to start your life with a stack of debts and a pile of regrets, and I would love to see the situation change. Wanting to slap them in the face just for being young is the same kind of mentality as being a miserable parent, yet wanting your kids to grow up and become parents just so they can suffer like you did.
Hang in there, Gretchen. To get your brain cranking in the right direction, think of every single thing you do on the job in terms of how you can present it on your resume.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 11:45 AM
bradley13? damn sparky, you're saying I'm in hell? OI!
"100 hours? We have budget for 50."
'Then there is no point, because you are going to get something that won't work.'
"Will it be partially functional?"
'Only if you change you original req's'
...
SwissArmyD at June 22, 2009 11:50 AM
You know, if we were to kill off the boomers, there'd be lots of jobs for everyone.
I'm just saying.
X+Y = ~B
Maurice at June 22, 2009 11:51 AM
Gretchen: a question, if you'll humor me. And I'm not asking to be sarcastic, I'm asking because I am genuinely puzzled:
Why on earth do college students today incur that kind of debt to get an education that's so worthless? Because I know what some of the other posters above are talking about: I interview way too many CS grads who don't know the basics of sorting or queues or linked lists, or even really understand Boolean algebra. (And to address Jack's question, it would be different if these students were coming out of school with the ability to go into research, but they aren't equipped for that either.)
Is it a matter of not understanding, when you are a college freshman, what does and doesn't get you market value for your education dollar? Is it because the school loads up your degree requirements with crap courses whose sole purpose is to subsidize a bloated faculty? Or is it because college is just too damned expensive, period?
Cousin Dave at June 22, 2009 11:58 AM
"Why on earth do college students today incur that kind of debt to get an education that's so worthless?"
To get past the trolls in H.R.
Read my link above, especially the comments that come after the article.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 12:01 PM
Thanks PJo - Definitely doing alright. But certainly not as well as I'd hoped.
"You know, if we were to kill off the boomers, there'd be lots of jobs for everyone."
Yeah - think of the millions of dollars we would have if we didn't have to bankrupt the social security system. If we really want to point fingers the blame should be squarely on the post WWII lovers.
Gretchen at June 22, 2009 12:06 PM
Since many of the jobs end up in India, he is correct.
MarkD at June 22, 2009 12:14 PM
Cousin Dave,
I think for some people the problem is picking idiotic majors. Like English...then they realize that writing or teaching isn't for them. It kinda closes some doors. Or people who major in liberal arts. Or pottery - how much money can you really make being a potter, and WHY would you pay for it?!
I have a degree in managerial economics, which was a specialization in economic research processes (think regression analysis) with a minor in marketing. I realized a few years too late that I should have focused on interior design or something. It takes a long time to figure out what makes you tick. At 18 all I knew was that I was glad high school was over.
I guess I'm ill equipped to really answer your question. While it seems to be a combination of many things I think it's mostly: college expenses have increased exponentially compared to 1) how much parents earn/therefore they can pay less 2) how much a grad can be expected to earn after.
Maybe 15 years ago a masters degree guaranteed you some success. Today you need it to just get a call back after submitting your resume.
Gretchen at June 22, 2009 12:15 PM
Cousin Dave,
I think for some people the problem is picking idiotic majors. Like English...then they realize that writing or teaching isn't for them. It kinda closes some doors. Or people who major in liberal arts. Or pottery - how much money can you really make being a potter, and WHY would you pay for it?!
I have a degree in managerial economics, which was a specialization in economic research processes (think regression analysis) with a minor in marketing. I realized a few years too late that I should have focused on interior design or something. It takes a long time to figure out what makes you tick. At 18 all I knew was that I was glad high school was over.
I guess I'm ill equipped to really answer your question. While it seems to be a combination of many things I think it's mostly: college expenses have increased exponentially compared to 1) how much parents earn/therefore they can pay less 2) how much a grad can be expected to earn after.
Maybe 15 years ago a masters degree guaranteed you some success. Today you need it to just get a call back after submitting your resume.
Gretchen at June 22, 2009 12:15 PM
Actually, the serious comments here are all true.
Our math and science education are not competitive with the rest of the world. My niece (Japanese) showed me her math textbook when she was a senior in High School and I was astounded at the level of difficulty. My daughter took a semester abroad in Australia, and she wasn't exposed to some of the concepts she needed for her upper level Chemistry class. (She studied her rear off and managed to pass the class, which impressed the professor.)
Good programmers are a rare breed, and easily ten or more times as productive as a run of the mill programmer. I am a good IT guy, and a mediocre programmer. They are vastly different skills.
The vocational training Nayar espouses are fluff. ITIL is just a common vocabulary for IT processes. Its adoption will come, but the basic processes are there at all well run companies. Whether you call something a "trouble ticket" or a "problem" or an "incident" doesn't matter nearly as much as understanding how they are to be resolved. A standard vocabulary makes it easier for new employees to be productive, but it won't make bradley13's bottom 50% worth hiring. I wouldn't necessarily set the bar at 50%, but I've worked with plenty of people who were close to worthless at IT.
Last, I can really relate to Gretchen's point. My son started for his Computer Science degree during the dot com boom, and graduated into the dot com bust. When he started school, IBM had offered every graduating senior a job. When he graduated, I was able to help him get a part time job here. He owed over $30K, and I owed more than he did... That is rather different than my $200 a semester tuition at SUNY, with the rest of my education paid for by the GI Bill, plus the military experience that got me hired in the first place.
Life is unfair.
MarkD at June 22, 2009 12:57 PM
So...the problem with grads today is that they expect to walk down the aisle in their gown, motarboard, clutching their diploma, into the Lexus, and then drive home to their luxury townhouse in a gated community and go to work at their six-figure income job the next day.
Patrick at June 22, 2009 12:59 PM
You are thinking too small Maurice, if your going to kill the boomers you may as well kill everyone older then them as well.
lujlp at June 22, 2009 1:07 PM
Computer Science undergraduate degrees would benefit from a little more vocational instruction. Computer Science professors are generally not interested in creating programmers, they're interested in creating Computer Science graduate students, and undergraduate Software Engineering programs are still few and far between. When I got my BS in CS we were expected to figure out how to make programs of nontrivial size as we went along, with mixed results. In grad school I took a software engineering survey course that would have improved my undergraduate education immensely.
Then again, I think scientists who program would also greatly benefit from a software engineering survey course. There's some ugly scientific software out there.
Pseudonym at June 22, 2009 1:08 PM
"Sean, dude. Shut up."
Thanks Gretchen for illustrating my point.
You're 24 and you're not a millionaire yet. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
When I was 24 I was working for much less than you in the US Air Force. That was after I left the US Army. I bet your mommy makes a better meatloaf then my Drill Seargeant did.
You are right about the Parents. It's the helicopter boomer moms + dads who created you. Sucks to be you. Now suck it up and get to work.
We're not interested in your whining.
It might take you longer than 25 or 26 years old before you get your "trophy" in the real world so shut up and get to work.
sean at June 22, 2009 1:10 PM
Meanwhile, sean is busy outing himself as a total old head.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 1:28 PM
I'm a member of that lost group that's not quite boomers and not quite GenX. And I've been through at least three recessions. And I experienced that "consider yourself lucky to have a job" in all three of them. Lost my job in two of them. Welcome to the real world.
Welcome to the working world.
We know it won't thrill ya.
We hope it don't kill ya.
Waaah! My parents didn't raise me right!
That excuse only works for so long. Then, the behavior is yours. You own it.
You have the choice to change your outlook and behavior...or not to. But your unhappiness is not the fault of the rest of us. Get over yourself.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 1:32 PM
"That excuse only works for so long. Then, the behavior is yours. You own it."
Yet you yourself have probably said the same thing about Boomer parents over and over.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 1:42 PM
Yep, I have often lamented what the entitlement parenting has done to the upcoming generations. Grumbled the same thing 'bout my own relatives and their children, too.
In fact, we have one of those children living with us now, going to school and looking for work.
And he's beginning to realize (with our help) that there are ups and downs in life and he owns his reaction to them. And no one owes him a living.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 2:00 PM
"I can't name a Chinese car..."
Except for the Hummer, of course.
Paul Hrissikopoulos at June 22, 2009 2:10 PM
Sean:
"We had a consultant do a presentation to all managers in my company a few years ago about dealing with Gen Y."
I remember those guys when I was starting in the workplace. They sold fattened middle-aged guys from the WWII generation piles of bullshit about boomers and Gen X workers. Sounds like the music men collected some money from your employer too.
"This is the generation raised to believe that they are "special" and that everyone gets a trophy whether you win or not. They are not willing to put in the time to learn a job and/or pay their dues. They need 'meaningfull' work. Or they will quit and work somewhere else."
Yeah, and them nigras get uppity unless you keep 'em in their place, eh Sean? I use the harsh analogy and tone to make a point: your grotesque generalization is Bull Connor-level bigotry against younger people. You identify a whole generation of young people, and then belittle them as lacking in some alleged virtue relative to older people. The point of that is you can then dismiss them and their concerns as unworthy of our sympathy.
"One good thing about this recession is the needed slap in the face these Gen Y spoiled brats are getting."
OH! And right on schedule, you *do* dismiss those "brats" and their concerns, making the dehumanization process complete. Way to go! Thanks for playing!
Gen Y will be running things when we are droolings in cups and need help wiping. And I assure you, they know how badly their elders have screwed up our nation and squandered the unimaginable bounty given to us by our grandparents. I fear our actions will be seen by posterity as the single greatest betrayal of both prior generations and future generations. I sure hope they forgive us for our awful performance.
So when prattling on about the failings of Gen Y and reveling in their failure, please have the modesty to announce that the boomers and Gen xers have already fucked up their chance so badly, that we are in no position to pass harsh judgement on younger guys, who have yet to make such a hash of things. In fact, I hope to hell they can fix what the boomers and gen xers have botched so badly. Otherwise my golden years will be far more miserable than anything you are hoping on them.
Gretchen, everything you and your friends talk about but cannot quite articulate/believe is absolutely, 100% true:
-- Your boomer boss is a lying asshole who will screw you at the first chance.
-- People in earlier generations had it easier when they came out of school.
-- Your debt is bigger and harder to pay off than prior generations, making your early adulthood a time of penury, when earlier generations were building equity.
-- You guys actually work harder and longer than earlier generations. And the workplace is far, far more demanding and competitive than it was even 20 years ago.
Spartee at June 22, 2009 2:10 PM
As someone in between the Boom and Gen X, I find the Gen Y sense of entitlement and lack of willingness to work to learn new skills highly annoying.
On the other hand, they are correct to make demands on their employers now. When I started as a programmer (about a decade before the internet boom) "new grads" were being paid about 30% less than the regular pay scale. I was one of the most productive members of the team and yet I was being severely taken advantage of. And these days you are pretty much "used up" as a programmer by the time you reach middle age.
b at June 22, 2009 2:25 PM
Gretchen, everything you and your friends talk about but cannot quite articulate/believe is absolutely, 100% the same whining I heard from Gen-X and, I'm sure, the same arguments the WWII generation heard from the boomers.
Plus ca change....
By the way, I think the boomers are a plague of locusts on the generational landscape.
And your Gen-Y coworker is a real prize, too. Or did you really think he was going to share credit with you on that presentation that cost you a night's sleep and cost him nothing because he left on time since you "know the data better."
That twenty years I spent paying off my student loan and college-incurred credit card debt was nothing compared to losing what little I had managed to save when the next recession came along.
Thanks, Spartee. I never knew I had it that good.
It was soooo easy when I got out of school. It took me two years to find job that didn't pay by the hour and came with benefits. My first non-parent place had a constantly-malfunctioning heater that the landlord refused to replace - that was fun in the winter. Oh, and rats.
And those older folks, they're not feeling any of that stress and competition, are they? Oh wait, everyone thinks they're getting too old and will send them out to pasture to hire a cheaper younger worker. Yeah, no stress there.
Spartee, every generation wants to feel it has earned a break more than any succeeding generation. And every incoming generation wants to feel it is better and more worthy than the preceding generation. The truth is, we've all had it good, and we've all had it rough.
You've identified older generations and then belittled them as lacking in some virtue relative to the younger and purer generation. Just so you can dismiss them and their concerns as unworthy of your sympathy.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 2:31 PM
I grew up in a small midwestern town in the 70's, where there really weren't any rich people. I certainly hadn't been pampered into a lifestyle of luxury by any means - when I graduated from college I thought I would make $20,000 a year. Now seriously, does that seem like a wildly outrageous expectation? This was 1992 - I think dive apartments cost about the same now as they did back then, and so do groceries. I rented a quite dumpy place for $335 a month. (This is in the Midwest, so those of you from big cities who couldn't rent a shoebox for that, please scoop your chins off the floor.)
Thing is, not only did I not hit $20K, it was almost three years before I finally did. I started at $14,500, which was slightly higher than the $13,000 and $13,500 salaries that were being handed out three or four years before me. (This was accounting, mind you - not exactly art history.) I was surrounded by college graduates in the same situation, and we were all doing jobs a trained monkey could do. Yet the company still required a bachelor's degree! I was only $11,000 in the hole for my degree - peanuts compared to what some people are in debt for now.
You can't blame people for feeling like they have been ripped off by a monopoly, because that's just what it is! It's a legitimate complaint - it's completely absurd the kinds of entry-level jobs that suddenly "require" a degree. It would make more sense to get one of these jobs straight out of high school, attend classes at night, learn what you can on the job, and by the time you have a degree you're probably actually ready for one in terms of the knowledge and skills required.
However, the way it works is completely backward. Somehow at the age of 18 you're supposed to know what you want to do for a living - enough that you'll spend tens of thousands of dollars for a degree in it, load yourself with debt, and all so that you have a piece of paper to hand to the H.R. department when they ask for it.
How is an 18-year-old supposed to know what they want to do for a living when they have only worked at fast food places and mall jobs? And how does it get any better when they go to college? At college, they continue to be surrounded by kids their own age who have never had anything but those kinds of jobs either.
I don't think Gretchen sounds whiny, I think she's trapped in a rat race - you start off life suffocating yourself with debt, just so you can get a piece of paper that you can use to get a job that you can then use to pay off the debt. Insane. Yet you still need a job.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 2:35 PM
I guess I am an old codger who things my fellow codgers are showing their onrushing senility in this thread.
"As someone in between the Boom and Gen X, I find the Gen Y sense of entitlement and lack of willingness to work to learn new skills highly annoying."
What I tend to find is GEn Y will work like dogs...if it is worth their while. But they are usually smart enough to know when someone is trying to get more from them than what they are paid to do.
I always kid my peers who carp that "kids" (i.e., young, still-pretty adults) don't want to work hard...for minimum wage. "Yeah," I tell them, "and I would not work hard for that amount either, would you?!" They then sputter about howe young people need to "earn their spurs" or "develop the skills I am offering them".
Bullshit! My peers are paying them as little as they have to to keep them, and then complaining that they are not getting more for the money.
It is like going to McDonalds specifically because it is cheap and then griping that there are no steaks for 99 cents. Don't bitch if you get cheap hamburgers when you pay cheap hamburger prices. And don't gripe about the lazy, inattentive server who gave you a cheap hamburger in exchange for 99 cents--THAT IS WHAT YOU PAID FOR!
Want a steak, go pay for a steak. Heck, offer a McDonald's worker enough money, and you will get a delicious steak from them and more attention than you want.
Spartee at June 22, 2009 2:41 PM
Except, when you go to a fancy steakhouse (Harvard, Princeton, Yale), order a steak (expecting to pay for one...when you finish your meal), and instead get a cheap hamburger; but the waiter expects to be paid for a steak.
Everyone works cheap when they're young and inexperienced. The payoff is a set of skills and knowledge that you can parlay into a better-paying job later.
Sometimes that knowledge is that you chose the wrong degree or field of study.
The road on the journey of self-discovery is not paved. And we've all had to walk down it.
I think what is bugging the older workers here is that the younger generation seems to act as if they are the only ones who have ever suffered.
And the older generation resents sitting through presentations about how to "treat" the younger workers...knowing none of their bosses ever had to sit through a presentation about how to "treat" them.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 2:57 PM
"You've identified older generations and then belittled them as lacking in some virtue relative to the younger and purer generation. Just so you can dismiss them and their concerns as unworthy of your sympathy."
When I belittle boomers and Gen X, it is for their failures in the past going on 35 years of full adulthood.
By any measure of economic or social progress, the boomers and Gen Xers had it easier then everyone else ever had before them. And we screwed it up something awful, not just for ourselves, but likely later generations.
Still, now boomers and Gen Xers gripe about *Gen Y*, before they even get their turn? That kills me. If there was a generation who had a better path than the Boomers--in the whole history of humanity---I must have missed it when reading those history books. (I make an exception for those poor boomer SOBs who got dragged into Vietnam--those guys got a raw deal, and can gripe without shame.)
Gen Y may turn out to be worse than us, but they start off without our advantages of a huge store of equity provided by the prior generation. Gen Y simply gets our IOUs, and they get to pay for their own way too.
So when boomers tell me Gen Y guys have it easier, I have to laugh. We screwed ourselves, to be sure, but we screwed them in the process.
Spartee at June 22, 2009 3:17 PM
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 3:33 PM
SOrry, this is the way it should look:
One word, plastics.
I'm with you on the Boomers - see my earlier "plague of locusts on the generational landscape" comment.
Gen-X, OTOH, has, for the most part, not yet been allowed by the boomers to run much of anything. Obama is only a sort of semi-Gen-X president (1960-1965 is sort of in-between). And the leaders of both houses of Congress are still Baby Boomers. With a few exceptions, most CEOs are in their fifties and sixties (Boomers).
And Gen-Y bears a large amount of responsibility for the current trillion-dollars-projected deficit. They're the ones that put Obama over the top. So, they've signed those IOUs, too.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 3:35 PM
You can all beat this. Move to Montana, and become a dental floss tycoon.
At least you'll be away from those who think that possession in debt is ownership.
Radwaste at June 22, 2009 3:49 PM
> Except for the Hummer, of course.
Didn't know! A blogger once said they make illicit aftermarket parts that are indistinguishable
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at June 22, 2009 4:37 PM
> Move to Montana, and become a
> dental floss tycoon.
Jus' me & the pygmy pony!
I could write 2,000 words on that guitar solo. Dare me. Go ahead... dare me.
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at June 22, 2009 4:41 PM
Boomers, yes. But if you read Strauss and Howe (The Fourth Turning), Gen-X had it pretty rough.
Conan the Grammarian at June 22, 2009 4:44 PM
Well, except for the draft and the Vietnam war, boomerhood (is that a word?) wasn't so bad. That faint sound you hear is my tiny violin.
MarkD at June 22, 2009 5:44 PM
So if I understand him correctly, the Indians are great at methodolgies and processes. Noting that the Indians seemed to have many more issues with quality I think that perhaps they should dump whatever they are using.
A problem I see is degree requirement inflation. A job I had 12 or so years ago right out of college (with a BS) -- and frankly there was absolutely no need for the BS -- now requires a masters!
The Former Banker at June 22, 2009 5:49 PM
Former Banker: Aren't there are lot of weird financial instruments out there that didn't exist a generation or so ago? A lot of the jobs you're talking about are vanishing anyway.
What I want to know is whether maybe a crisis like this recalibrates everyone's expectations in the direction of reality anyway... Like maybe people will pay for talent (and only for talent), whether it has sheepskin or not.
(This may be a petty fantasy on my part)
Crid [CommentCrid@gmail.com] at June 22, 2009 6:34 PM
I've been in IT for over 20 years and, not surprisingly, in that time I've worked with a number of Indians. Some were serious and some were funny. Some were very smart, some were very dumb. Some were lazy and some busted their asses. Some were cocky, brash and pushy and some were humble, sensitive and mild. Some were competent and some were not. In short they filled the spectrum pretty much like American people - except they consistently ate really delicious food.
I really haven't seen what people up-thread are talking about with the generational differences either. I've seen a lot of individual differences, but I haven't been able to correlate them with generations.
[blah, blah]...ITIL, Six Sigma...[blah, blah]
It's telling that Vineet Nayar's only two examples are process-focused. Processes are great for certain things. There's a reason pilots follow checklists. Very often they're looked at as magic bullets, though. No amount of process makes up for incompetent people. Maybe the reason Americans don't get excited about these things is that they don't see the value.
IMO, 90% of the value in software development comes from thinking. The script jockey mentality will never produce a good software product.
Shawn at June 22, 2009 6:40 PM
" ... except they consistently ate really delicious food"
Can you say a-MEN!!! Of course we blaspheme their lovely curries by making them with beef, but oh well - they are delicious that way. I likes me some cow.
Pirate Jo at June 22, 2009 6:46 PM
Let me share some wisdom my Mother gave me when I was growing up. I think a lot of people in this thread should take this to heart like I did.
1. The world does not owe you a living.
2. Life is unfair
Now, go about your business. Do the best you can and appreciate what you have.
I'm getting teary eyed. I feel I really made a difference with this post.
You're welcome.
Sean
sean at June 22, 2009 7:42 PM
It's telling that Vineet Nayar's only two examples are process-focused. Processes are great for certain things.
That's a good point. I remember when India was just beginning to become a prominent outsourcing region, and there was a lot of skepticism as to whether they could produce good software consistently. Their response to these concerns was to embrace the CMM/I processes. These gave them, what appeared to be, a certification of quality and competency.
But software engineering processes aren't a silver bullet. You can still produce absolute crap under even the most stringent validation process - but at least it'll be high sigma crap ;P
* for those who are wondering, a sigma is a unit of standard deviation. So within a high sigma process, almost all results will fall within the expected deviation of outcomes, and these bounds are tailored to the limits of a given specification. So sigma assessments are really a measure of the predictability of process results applied to a given specification tolerance.
Jack at June 22, 2009 8:02 PM
Very interesting thread. A couple of points before I retire for the night.
I read an article a few months back that made a point that I realize is absolutely true (at least in America). The reason employers have policies that (and thus require their HR departments to) consider an undergraduate degree as entry-level is that, basically, they gave up long ago on the concept that most who graduate college actually have many usable tech or professional skills at all, that can be readily transferred to the job. Their realization that grade inflation has produced many "graduates" that would have flunked out freshman year a couple of generations ago, has forced them to consider a college degree as nothing more than proof that the graduate is potentially capable of finishing SOMETHING (even if that something, 4 years of college with an acceptable GPA, has very little practical value as of yet). They value a newly-minted graduate as someone who has seen something through, and might as a result be able to see something else through, maybe this time for the employer. The employer assumes that they will have to train the new graduate in the skills applicable to the duties he's expected to perform. And they pay entry-level salaries accordingly.
Another big problem affecting job seekers of all ages is what I call "hiring incest". On the entry level, this means that hiring managers are predominantly graduates of major state schools, the Ivy League, etc., and will tend to hire those with degrees from the same places. The sharp Gen Y who chose to get a degree from Podunk U, a perfectly good school, to try to avoid crushing levels of student loan debt, is at a disadvantage from the get-go. Everyone knows this, and that's primarily why people compete so hard to get into the big-name schools and run up all that debt.
Something similar goes on with experienced job seekers. Take my field, accounting, for example. Most of the hiring managers in corporate finance are ex-Big 4 (large accounting firms), and tend to hire people who also come out of the Big 4. Those who choose to work their career in corporate accounting are at a disadvantage, even though their experience is much more relevant to the open position than several years in the Big 4.
I'm exhibit A. I'm smack in the middle of the boomers, with 25 years corporate experience, including 18 running my own corporate tax function. And when I look for a position, I invariably lose out to some 30-year old who has 6-7 years in the Big 4 and no corporate experience. And it's not because I'm looking for more money, either. I'm not.
One further comment about Gen Y's who are looking for meaning in their jobs. In all my years in accounting, I've never found meaning in pushing numbers around. It just happens to be what I can make the most money at. Point is: some people never find meaning, they just go to work day after day and do what they have to, and they never figure out what they want to do when they grow up. Not crying about it -- just sayin'.
cpabroker at June 22, 2009 9:06 PM
"They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa..."
As a South African IT business owner I've had the same experience with programmers in South Africa as Vineet.
I blame the inward-looking parochial culture that values activities like drinking and having a good time over actually seriously learning and training yourself to become a true expert in your field while at university.
There is some measure of truth to saying "you get what you pay for", and of course you can't get the same work for a newly graduated student as from someone with experience - but that isn't the point. If I hire a graduate today, I will almost certainly lose money as a business, and *that* should not be the case - the 'average or better' graduate should at least be good enough to be a profitable proposition to his employer - anything less, and you've failed in your self-education at university.
I blame students, not "the system". I went through the same system as all my fellow graduates, but while most of them stuffed around and socialized barely even learning the basics, I worked hard, taught myself, and thanks largely to the Internet, I figured out for myself that my own university's bar was set way too low, and I set my own internal standards expectations much higher.
Bottom line, if you only basically do your courses at university, even if you do well, you won't be good when you graduate. You have to put in your own time to learn and do extra over and above the expectations of your course. And parents should teach that to their kids.
When I tell young adults now who are studying that if they want to succeed, they have to work hard doing extra stuff during *their own time* and not just do what their courses expect, many of them just look at me funny, like I'm from Mars or like I'm a lunatic saying something completely bizarre and incomprehensible.
All study is self-study. No course maketh the expert.
Dave at June 22, 2009 9:28 PM
"One further comment about Gen Y's who are looking for meaning in their jobs. In all my years in accounting, I've never found meaning in pushing numbers around. It just happens to be what I can make the most money at."
Accounting is part of the infrastructure, i.e. accountants don't actually produce stuff. Programmers do. I literally make software products that help millions of kids (third-world in SA and elsewhere) get a better quality education, and yes, I do derive meaning from that, even though I could be making more money doing less meaningful work. Accountants play a crucial role, sure, but they don't actually *make* anything themselves, they just play a supporting role to the people who do, so it will always be inherently harder to see the "meaning" in what you do.
Dave at June 22, 2009 9:37 PM
Indian, chinese or asian system is still too unreasonably exploitative, backward, unproductive and inefficient as compared to real genuine intelligent Western stuff.
WLIL at June 22, 2009 9:45 PM
It's telling that Vineet Nayar's only two examples are process-focused. Processes are great for certain things. There's a reason pilots follow checklists. Very often they're looked at as magic bullets, though. No amount of process makes up for incompetent people. Maybe the reason Americans don't get excited about these things is that they don't see the value.
I dislike software "processes", but they do have a role to play with lesser-quality programmers. Your best programmers usually won't need or want processes, but programmers are highly varied, and different programmers benefit differently from different processes. Best is to be flexible, and not stick to any one methodology religiously.
I always kid my peers who carp that "kids" (i.e., young, still-pretty adults) don't want to work hard...for minimum wage. "Yeah," I tell them, "and I would not work hard for that amount either, would you?!"
Yes, I would (and have), because I was raised to do a job well and with pride, no matter what it was or how much I was earning. Those are my values. A job's a job, be thankful for every one. Call me old-fashioned, but if you're so damn good that you are sure you deserve to be earning more, then just *quit* and go earn more. If you don't like your job's conditions, quit. If you can't quit because there are no other better jobs available, then stop complaining, because then that by definition is as good as it gets. And if the entire job market is really beneath you, then you must be fantastic, therefore start your own business and create your own jobs.
A job is a privilege. The ancestors of Americans weren't ashamed of an honest day's work even if it was shovelling pig shit for a few cents, and that's why America became great. Now we have this self-entitled culture where people like you *actually* think they shouldn't even do their own damn jobs properly - and *that* is the problem with the economy.
If a man doesn't *do his job*, he is nothing, for there is no other measure of a man's productive worth for his time on the planet.
Dave at June 22, 2009 9:53 PM
Or - in every developer's vision of hell - they get put into project management, where they can make uninformed decisions and impossible demands because they just never quite understand
Nightmare indeed!
The know-nothing CEO at the company I work for did exactly this--hired an Indian guy who couldn't hack it in a dynamic IT environment and, when he failed, sent him to MBA school (for reasons of diversity in management--there were no minorities in the decision-making process prior to) and put him in project management...where he failed so spectacularly that the parent company fired the aforementioned CEO and is now about a three to seven days from completely dismantling the subsidiary and firing all 215 employees, including myself.
I wouldn't place too much emphasis on this article as the person quoted references six-sigma as something that one should learn rather than something one should spend 0-1 hour per week on and put on one's resume so dopes like him will pay a higher wage when they see it.
steve at June 22, 2009 10:17 PM
"Programmers do. I literally make software products that help millions of kids (third-world in SA and elsewhere) get a better quality education, and yes, I do derive meaning from that, even though I could be making more money doing less meaningful work. "
Oh Brother. Another coder who thinks he's Picasso when he's really no more than a house painter.
Code I wrote is being executed all around the world as I type this. That makes me ... someone who got paid to produce a product so a company could produce profits.
No more. No less.
sean at June 23, 2009 3:49 AM
sean - are you also the second coming of Jesus?
Predictable snark from a snot nosed brat, right? I'll just say it for you so you don't have to waste any more of your time. Now go enjoy your social security check before it bounces.
Gretchen at June 23, 2009 5:12 AM
My husband is a professor, and has noticed that the students really need to be spoon fed everything. Their attitude is "We are paying so much money, we want good service and deserve to have an A". I think part of the problem is high costs of education, with people spending so much money they expect to be waited on hand and foot. Unfortunately, that's not how you learn.
Professors rely heavily on teaching evaluations, and if they get bad ones it hurts their chances of promotion. Of course, students who get lower grades than they expected tend to give bad evaluations. So the professors I've talked to (and I've talked to a lot) feel like they have to really dumb things down for the students.
NicoleK at June 23, 2009 6:48 AM
"1. The world does not owe you a living.
2. Life is unfair
Now, go about your business. Do the best you can and appreciate what you have."
Not exactly a problem-solver, are you sean.
Pirate Jo at June 23, 2009 7:06 AM
"Professors rely heavily on teaching evaluations, and if they get bad ones it hurts their chances of promotion. Of course, students who get lower grades than they expected tend to give bad evaluations."
Yes, this is because the entire system has become one where students exchange cash for grades. They all expect to get A's and B's, because they are paying for them. Colleges and universities have become giant degree dispensers, chucking them out for the right price. In a way, since most of these students really have no passion for what they are learning, and just want to be able to get a decent job, I don't blame them.
Pirate Jo at June 23, 2009 7:08 AM
"sean - are you also the second coming of Jesus?"
Thanks Gretchen. I see that you're learning something from this discussion. Sorry but I don't have a trophy to give you though.
As for my SS check, sadly I'm years away from that. But I appreciate your concern. When I do strat collecting, it will only represent less than 20% of my retiremnt income. But I'll be sure to think of you when I spend it since you'll be the one earning that money for me.
Thanks!!!!
sean at June 23, 2009 7:30 AM
"Not exactly a problem-solver, are you sean."
Joey,
Funny but that's part of my job. So you are incorrect.
sean at June 23, 2009 7:33 AM
"So you are incorrect."
Who cares whether what I say about you is right or not? Life is unfair, so shut up, go about your business, and be thankful for what you have.
Pirate Jo at June 23, 2009 7:52 AM
"Who cares whether what I say about you is right or not? Life is unfair, so shut up, go about your business, and be thankful for what you have."
Yes, Joey. I'm thankful that I'm right and you're wrong.
sean at June 23, 2009 8:33 AM
"This is the generation raised to believe that they are "special" and that everyone gets a trophy whether you win or not."
Well, that is what they were fed in grade school. Fortunately, from what I've seen, most of them are smart enough to see through that. Some aren't, but we just ignore them. If there's one criticism I could make, it's the Gen Y desire for sincerity. It makes them kind of gullible about some things, and every now and then, I have to give them a dose of good ol' Gen X cynicism, so they won't be taken advantage of.
Getting back to Gretchen: Yes, there are a lot of kids who get sold a bill of goods by universities. Even in my day, we had a saying that if you majored in art history, you'd better have a minor in chemistry, because you'll have to poison a museum curator to create a job opening. Part of the problem is that nowhere in our educational system today do kids get taught anything about economics at all (other than "capitalism is bad"). So they don't understand that employment is a market, with everything that that implies.
But I hear other stories like yours, that even grads with good degrees have a hard time finding work. Of course, right now the economy just sucks, but this started before that. I'm not sure what to make of it all. I do see that part of the problem is that there are still a lot of industries who are located in parts of the country where the cost of living is high, and the government-created business climate is bad. Even back in my cub days in the '80s, that was true in some places. I worked for a computer company in Ft. Lauderdale, which at the time had about an average cost of living -- rent and utilities were kind of high, but taxes were low and most basic goods like groceries were untaxed. A couple I knew moved from there to take jobs in Silicon Valley. A year later, they came back. Even with both of them working software jobs at good pay, they couldn't afford to live there -- rent was so high they had to take a boarder, and taxes were killing them.
I graduated in 1983 with $7500 in student loans, which was a lot at the time. But terms were probably easier than they are now. Interest was deferred until I graduated, and the loan was payable over, IIRC, 14 years, so payments were $75 per month. I did well in the mid-80s, but had to take a 10% cut in 1988 when I moved to a different area. But it was a low-cost-of-living part of the country, and I worked diligently at watching my expenses for a while. In 1990 I managed to both pay off the loan, and buy a house with 10% down.
It can be done. You need to have a little more patience with yourself. I will tell you one thing that most graduates don't realize, and I have to learn it through experience: career (and life) progress does not move at a steady rate, like we grow up thinking it does. Progress is very, very non-linear. You keep plugging away, day after day. And then one day, you do something that's just like the things you've been doing for the past three years, but at that moment it happens to be exactly what somebody needs, and all of a sudden you're a corporate rock star. I've had it happen to me.
Sort of getting back to the topic:
"So if I understand him correctly, the Indians are great at methodolgies and processes. Noting that the Indians seemed to have many more issues with quality I think that perhaps they should dump whatever they are using."
There's a lot of credentialism in the Indian software industry. When the first version of the CMMI standards was released several years back, I think half of the software houses in India were accredited as CMMI Level 5 the next day. Of course, realistically there is no way; it was the result of accreditors and clients patting each other on the back. I tend to disregard any CMMI ratings I see for Indian software firms, because their accrediting standards seem to be nonexistent, and I've had some experience with houses that claimed to be CMMI 5 but in reality were nowhere close.
Cousin Dave at June 23, 2009 9:14 AM
A Boomer strikes back:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124537646251430161.html
Conan the Grammarian at June 23, 2009 10:36 AM
From that article:
I have two teenagers and an 8-year-old, and I can say firsthand that if boomer parents have anything for which to be sorry it's for rearing a generation of pampered kids who've been chauffeured around to soccer leagues since they were 6. This is a generation that has come to regard rising affluence as a basic human right, because that is all it has ever known -- until now. Today's high-school and college students think of iPods, designer cellphones and $599 lap tops as entitlements. They think their future should be as mapped out as unambiguously as the GPS system in their cars.
CBS News reported recently that echo boomers spend $170 billion a year -- more than most nations' GDPs -- and nearly every penny of that comes from the wallets of the very parents they now resent. My parents' generation lived in fear of getting polio; many boomers lived in fear of getting sent to the Vietnam War; this generation's notion of hardship is TiVo breaking down.
**************************************
Did Gretchen or Joey's Dad write that?
sean at June 23, 2009 10:43 AM
Another anti-Boomer screed:
http://www.superseventies.com/worstgen.html
Conan the Grammarian at June 23, 2009 10:43 AM
Let me fix this:
"This is a workforce that has come to regard rising affluence as a basic human right, because that is all it has ever known -- until now. Today's union workers think of lifetime medical benefits, pensions, job banks, and overtime pay after 30 hours as entitlements. They think their future should be as mapped out as unambiguously as the GPS system in their cars."
Pirate Jo at June 23, 2009 11:00 AM
"You need to have a little more patience with yourself."
You hit the nail on the head.
It's not a sense of entitlement (I'm living at home to help my mom keep a roof over my brother and sister's head right now b/c my bi polar father can't hold down a job, so if anything it's reverse-entitlement, where I owe mom) or laziness (I work, hit the gym then make sure there's dinner on the table and the chores are done at my mom's house) that is leading to feeling frustrated in my endeavors.
I think people have high expectations of themselves, and that's okay. But for the vast majority of us, our dreams don't come to fruition - for lots of reasons. It's also easy to become disenchanted with your own dreams along the way. I'm just very not-content with where I am right now and I'm really afraid that it will never change. It's like I'm unsure if it's truly, genuinely possible to climb out of the hole even with hard work.
Not saying this in a whiny way - b/c I know some pleasant people will assume so. It's just very matter of fact like, wow, if I wake up in 30 years and I haven't lived any of my dreams will I handle that alright? Probably not - so it's a big pressure to work this all out now to prevent bad things later. Since I'm on shaky ground w/ my student debts and my school efforts aren't really paying off it's nerve wracking.
Just sayin'.
Gretchen at June 23, 2009 11:09 AM
Seriously Gretchen, Good Luck.
Not all Gen Y'ers are spoiled brats. You sound like you have reason to complain. I can tell you from experience that when you do end up achieving things you will appreciate them more after what you've gone through. And you won't end up wasting time on some shrinks couch feeling guilty about your good fortune.
sean at June 23, 2009 12:08 PM
Clearly, Pirate Jo those union workers have worked hard for decades and deserved all those benefits. The US taxpayer should guarantee those benefits too in perpetuity even as the companies die or unemployment hits 12%, those teachers shouldn't make sacrifices and get a paycut.
"this generation's notion of hardship is TiVo breaking down."
Or as the 80s drug ad said, "We learned it from watching you!".
Why yes, my biggest concern as a gen x'er/y'er (31 but prolly more gen x than y...) has been my tivo/ipod/internet connection not working. Not a failing economy model thats been apparent for at least 10+ years (you can't go wrong in real estate!), for having to grow up through PC culture and getting blamed for my father/grandfathers+ generations' misdeeds. Last but not least the steady decline in my civil rights via the war on drugs, the war on terror and resource/growth challenges (green tech/immigration).
Sio at June 23, 2009 12:27 PM
Heh! I have a lot more respect for the work ethic of Generation Y than I do for all those old coots who retired from unions. First of all, Generation Y does not expect "company loyalty" or "job security." They understand that they are getting paid WHILE they are there for WHAT they are doing. Not getting paid forever and ever just because they attached a bolt to a car twenty years ago. (Sheesh, talk about entitlement.)
Generation Y knows it has to think on its feet and keep its skills sharp, because there are no guarantees and anyone can lose a job any time. The LAST thing any of them want is to be branded a "lifer" - and rightly so. So while others may mock them for seeking "meaningful" work, it actually makes sense. Humping away at busywork all day, paying dues, isn't going to move them up a corporate ladder, because there is no more corporate ladder. They know they have to learn something if they ever want to make more money.
Contrast that to those whining, entitlement-seeking uniontards. How pitiful, how inept, how utterly useless do you have to be to need government protectionism for your job. (Not to mention, how completely divorced from reality.) Gee, I'M sorry you fell for a big line of bullshit about being taken care of for life. But if I promise my next-door neighbor I'm going to give him a monthly check for the rest of his life, and he is dumb enough to believe that, should the government bail him out? Generaton Y doesn't have those ridiculous expectations, although they will end up paying for the bailouts of others.
I think I understand why Generation Y voted for Obama. They thought he would decriminalize pot, end the Iraq War, and stop banging on about gay marriage and abortion like a bunch of old white guys. When they realize how badly he is soaking them, my hope is that they won't repeat their mistake. There are enough Y's out there that they could really change things. They certainly need to. There aren't enough of us X'ers to make a difference and the Boomers are too heavily invested in the status quo.
Pirate Jo at June 23, 2009 12:56 PM
Gretchen: "I think people have high expectations of themselves, and that's okay. But for the vast majority of us, our dreams don't come to fruition - for lots of reasons. "
Well, we all grow up with dreams and fantasies that are just unrealistic. I accepted a long time ago that I will never win the Indianapolis 500. But I have gotten to get my hands on the cars; I've met drivers and people from the teams. Several years ago, there was an opportunity to insert myself into that world, and I went for it. Despite the fact that it's pretty far afield of what I do for a living.
I'll never be a rock star, but I have been in a band and played in front of paying audiences. What it took to get there was mostly just the nerve to insert myself into that situation. Some years ago, at work, I volunteered to take on an assignment that no one knew how to do, and the result of that was that I wound up training a bunch of International Space Station astronauts. I'll never fly in a Space Shuttle, but I have been inside one, and other spacecraft too. I've written software and worked on hardware that has flown in space. Is it good enough? In the world of my childhood fantasies, maybe not. But in the real world, it's more than good enough. It's something I can point to and say, "I had a part in that".
Consider this too: even famous people have unfulfilled fantasies. Jason Priestly is a famous actor. Want to know what his secret fantasy is? He, like me, wanted to win the Indianapolis 500. The difference is, he actually pursued that dream -- until it nearly got him killed. So sometimes dreams aren't all they're cracked up to be.
Cousin Dave at June 23, 2009 1:33 PM
"this generation's notion of hardship is TiVo breaking down."
I would think it would be more along the lines of "Waiting for the entire world finance system to fail, resulting in pure anarchy where 90% of the population of the planet dies."
But your Tivo one is good too.
ErikZ at June 23, 2009 3:36 PM
ErikZ - have you stocked up on your MRE's yet?
"even famous people have unfulfilled fantasies. "
Cousin D - I'm pickin up what you're throwin down. I wasn't so much talking about far fetched fantasies, more like: owning a nice home with a modern, gourmet kitched stocked to the brim with nice wines and cheeses. I'm afraid I might be driving the same car and wearing the same clothes in 30 years!
But thanks for your input; that's really cool about training the astronauts.
Gretchen at June 23, 2009 3:42 PM
Thanks, Gretchen. I had a lot of the same thoughts that you're describing when I was your age.
Cousin Dave at June 24, 2009 9:02 AM
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