I find some of the protesting to be surreal. For instance: can you yell that the First Amendment doesn't protect your yelling?

If you reject the system of protections provided for you, then they still apply?

Further - are you really so far gone in your zealotry that you cannot recognize that dissatisfaction with current officeholders does not mean that the system is wrong?

If they ban flag burning then does that mean jail time for members of the military present at a flags retirement?

We can all rest easy on this one. If a Republican congress and president couldn't pass this, it certainly won't come close now. Unless, of course, the Democrats need some cheap, meaningless way of proving their "patriotism" after Obama's sucking up to every dictator in the world fails. Bottom line, this is DOA -- and only another device used to divert us from paying attention to the real damage the passage of other legislation is doing and will be doing to our future.

"While I personally don`t agree with flag burning, I`m quite confident that our country proves itself stronger for allowing it. The fact that our citizens can use this form of expression freely while in other countries they would be thrown in jail is one of the best advertisements for freedom the US has."

I took my children to visit wounded veterans at Walter Reed in DC. As we drove towards the entrance there were anti-war protesters. My children were upset because they thought it was disrespectful for them to be there. Some people support the troops and are against the war but we weren't sure if these people (they were being very rude) were even supporting the troops or using them as an excuse to protest something, anything. As much as I hated seeing these people saying some of the things they were saying or holding up some of the outrageous signs, I was visiting people who fought for their right to do so. It is one of the greatest things about this country. In many other countries these people may have been arrested or even killed. So I am thankful that I live in America. Happy 4th to everyone!

Radwaste, I am a vet and a conservative, and I am totally dissatisfied with the system. The people running it are interchangeable, unprincipled louts.

We have a Constitution that supposedly limits the power of the Federal government. It is routinely ignored.

Too bad about this country we used to have. It was a nice place, and relatively free. The autocrats won, and are driving it into the ground. Look at the deficits. You can't even get onto an airplane without being subject to all manner of indignities. A Federal agent can lie to you with impunity, but it's a felony if you lie to him.

The country I grew up in is over.

I took my children to visit wounded veterans at Walter Reed in DC. As we drove towards the entrance there were anti-war protesters. My children were upset because they thought it was disrespectful for them to be there.

Your children were correct: it was disrespectful for the anti-war protesters to be there. This sounds like a great opportunity for a teaching moment: in our system we're allowed to be disrespectful because it is easy to label dissent as disrespect and using the law to suppress dissent is worse than being disrespectful.

When this came up about 5 years ago, didn't they find there was only 1 or 2 public flag burnings (protest burnings) a year? It's so rare that it's not an issue.

Have to disagree on this one. I too am a libertarian (former republican who is now sickof that party) and fiscal conservative. However, my father served this country in war, as do my nephews now. I find it utterly disgusting that anyone would burn the flag that they have fought for. I do not think legislation is in order, but a good ass-whipping should be dolled out to anybody who disrespects the symbol that men and women fight and die for,

Perhaps we could have an all-American compromise. Burning the flag is fine if you first wrap yourself in it.

"... but a good ass-whipping should be dolled out to anybody who disrespects the symbol that men and women fight and die for"

Ron,

I have been serving my country in the Air Force for 17 years. In fact, I leave Tuesday for Iraq. I can assure you, nobody has ever fought and died for a symbol. What we fight and die for is what that symbol represents. One of the paramount ideals that our flag represents is freedom of speech.

One of the paramount ideals that our flag represents is freedom of speech.

So very true.

Unfortunately we are steadily losing one of the ideals: No taxation without representation. ;-) But that is another story.

Really Jim? Are you from D.C.? If not, your vote is still very much in tact.

It is insane that the western world is fighting for the freedom of savages who go around burning the flags that represent freedom. So, why bother about Iraq when Iraq or the rest of asiatic/middleeastern world don't bother and don't care about our freedom or our safety or our human rights in the free world. It is a sign of decadence, if people seems to care more about wealth than freedom. Winning back our own western freedom is far more important than fighting for some aliens that (only lust for wealth and power that enslave us and retard our progress) don't respect our freedom to strive for a better future. We are lost if we lose our freedom. I hope we can keep our freedom secure.

We have representation, it just sucks ass.

I'll give that as a more accurate description of what I'm saying. ;-)

I didn't vote for Obama but you can blame me for Schwarzenegger.

But can you explain Pelosi? She's from CA.Or is that a different congressional district?

It seems to me that both flag-burning and violent responses to it stem from the impulse to follow a "code of honor." Aristocrats dueled in retaliation for slights and insults. Gang members beat, stab, or shoot members of rival gangs who dis them or flash the wrong sign.

What do evolutionary psychologists say about violence sparked by symbolic behavior?

Whenever this issue comes up I can't help thinking what other causes the U.S. flag has been flown for. Slavery operated under the flag for how many years?

The flag isn't anything more to me than a piece of cloth. I don't understand defending it. I do care about liberty and our constitution. Those are worth defending.

I think flag burning is a valid form of protest. It doesn't mean much to me these days because most causeheads who do it, have long worn out the shock value of it and they burn it solely for that reason as their ideas have little else to go on.

Not that it doesn't bother me when I see Old Glory burning but I put it in perspective. The who and the why matter behind the protest.

If flag burning is so horrible, why do people use images of our flag/national symbol in other agregious ways? Merchandising! Merchandising! Mugs, t-shirts, shorts, bumper stickers etc. A flag outside on an unlit pole at night (not following standard protocol for display). What does it say about a person who has a "support our troops" sticker on their car with a flag on it thats dirty and half worn away? What about all the patriotic swimsuits? Is part of "old glory" riding up someone's ass crack not demeaning? Or is the flag on the thong bikini showing just how patriotic that young gal's coochie is?

It seems to me that both flag-burning and violent responses to it stem from the impulse to follow a "code of honor." Aristocrats dueled in retaliation for slights and insults. Gang members beat, stab, or shoot members of rival gangs who dis them or flash the wrong sign.

What do evolutionary psychologists say about violence sparked by symbolic behavior?

I have to disagree that the flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth. As Amy noted, symbolic speech is protected. If the burning of a flag is only burning "a piece of cloth" then why aren't those who set out to inflame burning, oh, say, T shirts?
Having said that, I recognize that you said that you said "to me" in your post. That's fine. To you it has no meaning. To me it is a symbol of our nation. And as much as I love America, I would not do violence to a person choosing to ignite a flag. As much as I'd like to.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go flush a Koran down the toilet.

Yeah, yeah libertarians.
Let's see: You wife's boss tells her to perform fellatio or get fired. No recourse--and that mortgage payment is waiting--except it is not a tax-deductible mortgage payment, because we have done away with the nanny state. And your bank is not FDIC-insured. And you are actually a polygamist, with three wives. One whom hooks to support the family--in a plate-glass window at the airport (you know those traveling businessmen). In fact, they are bringing in boatloads of hookers from Asia and South America (this happens anyway, imagine when it is legal, One Korean somehow crossed the Mexican border into the USA with busses holding 600 Korean hookers). And that great new restaurant? Too bad you can't go in: It says "No Jew-Girls Allowed."
Brothels use neon lights to advertise their services, right next to coke dens and gambling joints. If you win at poker, you get to strip a girl onstage, spank her till her buns glow red, and take her to a room.
No public parks (no national parks either), no public beaches. Condos all over the Grand Canyon. They show porno movies on the face of El Capitan, which was smoothed over and painted white.
No Social Security. No public universities. No land grant colleges. No minimum wage. No PBS. No effing handicapped access and stupid parking spaces.
Your neighbors have RPGs and fully automatic weapons. Why not flame-throwers? Nerve gas? In rusty cans?
I find most libertarians are fakes. They pick and choose the aspects of libertarianism they want, then make excuses for the limits they want.
Most women would not last a day if the USA became libertarian, although for guys I suspect it would be a plus, overall, once we got used to it.
It was called ancient Rome--they brought in beautiful women from around the world, the price of girl dropped to nearly nothing. In Pompeii, the town's leading families ran inns, and their daughters slept with travelers for money. They also put large penises everywhere to ward off evil spirits.
Okay ladies, hand's up for libertarianism! And not some sanitized version.

I find most libertarians are fakes.

What you really find is that all libertarians are not for complete deregulation.

I find that most trolls only pretend to make serious arguments. Don't let i-hole get under your skin; she just wants someone to respond heatedly.

I am a veteran. My son is a veteran still on active duty with the Army. My husband is a veteran, and a West Point graduate who got called back to active duty for his second tour in the middle east after retiring five years ago. He is there now. My father was a veteran of WWII who barely survived and was profoundly grateful when Harry Truman dropped the bomb. None of us think or thought that flag burning should be illegal, anymore than it should be illegal to burn a bible or any other religious book. The flag is just a symbol. The real danger to this country is the Orwellian nightmare that we are living in now where the thought police, government pork politics,total erosion of civil liberties via airport security and the drug war are turning us into a socialist police state. Without economic freedom it is not possible for any other kinds of freedom to exist and our economic self determination is being mortgaged and regulated to death at a pace not seen since the 1930's. If you are worried about flag burning you are taking your eye off the ball. Isabel

ihole is a fucking moron, you can buy flame thorwes in the garden section of home depot.

WHo really needs neve gas when mixing amonia and bleach can give you clorine gas(Cemical weapon), nitro tetracloride(a highly toxic explosive) and hydrazine(a component of rokcet fuel? Drop some sulfer in the tub whole mixing and you might get mustard gas.

I seriouly doubt people understand just how many people could be killed with a day of shopping at the home depot and pool cleaning supply store

Not to mention(again - are you incapable of reading responses to your poorly thought out posts ihole?)

Anyone can buy a gun kit online for AKs and M16s takes hours to assemble - if you all thumbs, and takes even less time to convert to full auto
http://www.impactguns.com/store/ak47.html

I'm a veteran and I've always thought these flag burning amendments to be ridiculous.
How can you not view burning a flag as political speech?
That's what veterans are supposed to be fighting to preserve. The right to express your views. Especially political views.
Go ahead and burn the flag if you want. Just don't be surprised if someone wants to kick your ass, though.

I would never burn the flag, and actually I protest quite often in support of free speech while carrying or displaying a flag. However, burning a flag to me is the same as any other anti-authoritarian or anti-government protest, though it is supposed to be more visceral. I can see people burning a flag to show that they feel that the United States of America is burning (like Rome) or that America is not free anymore. I’ve seen people burn effigies of Washington (because he owned slaves) or Columbus (I believe it was a pro-Native American group), would they then make burning effigies of national figures like Washington/Lincoln illegal too?

Are our eyes so innocent and emotions so close to the surface that we as Americans are not allowed to witness (by doing it or merely walking by) a flag being burned?

I don't agree with burning the flag, but I have the sense that our freedom of speech is already not as broad as we'd like to believe. Could you burn a symbol of a woman in effigy? Can you burn a cross in your front yard? I don't think you can paint a swastika on a building. These are considered "hate crimes". And I'm sure there are other examples.

So, we've already begun regulating free speech. I agree it's wrong, but if we are going to call those "hate crimes" then what is really so inconsistent in saying that you can't show your hatred of America by desecrating the American flag? I mean, we insist that other groups not show their hatred by desecrating religious or social symbols. Considering the emotional importance of the flag to so many veterans, it seems wrong not to offer it the same protections. Protesters have a vast array of other options, including a free press, to voice their discontent.

>>We have representation, it just sucks ass.

Thanks Amy, that is the best political sound bite I have heard in a while.

I think it would make a great t-shirt or bumper sticker!

I love this country too, but burning *any* flag is freedom of speech, straight up.

If someone wants to wear a swastika (or tattoo it on their forehead) -- well, they have a right to do it. No where in our Constitution does it say you can't act or reveal yourself as a horses ass in public (and good thing, becuase our prisons would be filled up).

What I do find a little disturbing is the focus on the American flag and not any flag or religious book for that matter.

There was an incedent here in the Bay Area involving conservative students on the SFSU Campus who were staging an "anti-terrorist" rally and decided to stomp on some Hamas and Hezbollah flags.

Apperantly, these flags (homemade) included the word "Allah" in Arabic (unknown to them at the time). Their demonstration resulted in complaints by other students, and then a hearing by SFSU. FIRE wrote to the college backing the students.

However....

SFSU found that “The prohibition on incivility is clearly unconstitutional,” and “Much of the speech that is not civil is protected by the constitution and people do not have the right to be free from offense,” and thereby banning similar practices (and protecting fanatical religious shitheads).

http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/7824.html

Not free speech from offence???!!!! This hardly got any coverage, but if we are going to protect the burning of the American flag or symbols, we shouldn't kow-tow like this. Sends a poor message.

>>I'm reminded of the guy with his friends shouting outside my house at 2 a.m. a few weeks ago. I told him he was badly raised. He asked, "Are you saying that because we're Asian." Unbelievable, huh? "No," I told him, "Because you're loud, inconsiderate assholes."

Sadly this kind of excuse making goes on far too often (whether based on race or the many other excuses used). The media deserves a significant helping of blame for the cause. They foster that 'I'm not responsible cause I am a victim of some sort' type of excuse making. However, I recognize there are some, such as yourself, that have the guts to not allow that kind of crap to fly.

Is the idea of 'American freedom' more of an illusion? The flag burning issue seems one reason I think that. Also, there was a legal case in Texas regarding sodomy being illegal (sodomy and flag burning in the same argument? That's a stretch.). I always believed 'American freedom' meant freedom, at times, may be exercised in ways that some, or even most, will not like. The reality of 'American freedom', however, seems to be 'the freedom to take others freedoms away simply because they don't like what others are doing'. The illusion is that freedom is restricted only due to a very compelling reason. The reality is that a group's visceral dislike for a freedom is a compelling reason to limit it.

Assuming a flag burning law was passed, would it be illegal if I used a newspaper to start my BBQ and that newspaper had the picture of an American flag on it? Or maybe it would only be illegal if it seemed I was really pissed off and on the verge of insurrection as I did it? I understand the emotional response to the American flag. Count me as one of those people who hold its symbolism with great regard. A flag burning law, though, is simply not worthy of what it stands for.

Feebie, thank you for the link to the article. A very enlightening read. I live in the Bay Area and heard nothing of this (though, in fairness, I am traveling on business almost every week). The movie Planet of the Apes (a favorite of mine) has a line in it that is appropriate here. When the prosecuting ape asks Charleton Heston to explain what makes all apes equal, he responds "Some apes, it seems, are more equal than others". And I believe that will precisely be the the true but unspoken outcome here. The final message from SFSU surely will be, sadly, freedoms are negotiable depending on the 'ideology or view point or religion' of those exercising the freedoms.

What I find maddening about people, especially veterans, who claim that burning the flag is a disgrace to the very symbol of what this country stands for, and what they fought for, is that they don't seem to understand what that symbol really represents.

It's the fact that we can burn the flag that give it its meaning. Take away the right to burn it and it means nothing. And they fought for nothing.

"The flag isn't anything more to me than a piece of cloth. I don't understand defending it. I do care about liberty and our constitution. Those are worth defending."

"...they don't seem to understand what that symbol really represents".

Okay, geniuses one and all, point at "liberty". Define it; make the distinction between it and "freedom". Do you want to wave the Constitution? The flag stands for those things.

If you burn the dictionary, freezle gallpa ulnot svoprkd!

(That was to illustrate the confusion surrounding the message attempted in burning a US flag.)

Yes, the burner is repudiating the very system that lets her protest. Yes, the public doesn't know a damned thing about civics - they get good gas mileage, don't they? Meanwhile the flag is just a publicity gimmick. It doesn't make the protest any more worthy, because vehemence doesn't change the state of any argument.

I really wish more people could walk between missile tubes and get a sense of perspective.

"Piece of cloth"?

Obviously, you've never seen it draped over a loved one.

I know Amy addressed this a little, but I'm trying to avoid studying for the bar and I'd like to make sure it's clear. LovelySoul, you are, I'm pleased to say, quite wrong.

"Could you burn a symbol of a woman in effigy?
Can you burn a cross in your front yard?"

To the best of my knowledge, there's never been a court case on burning a woman in effigy, but there really could be no rational argument that would support restrictions (other than what are known as "time, place, and manner" restrictions- those involving safety and order, of course. You can burn a cross in your yard, again, assuming that it's not a great risk. The only non-safety/order related restriction on cross-burning is that it can't be an "attempt to intimidate" such as by burning it in someone else's yard.
The case is Virginia v. Black (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_v._Black).

I don't think that there's a rational argument that burning a woman in effigy would be treated differently.

"I don't think you can paint a swastika on a building. These are considered "hate crimes"."

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as a pure hate crime. The only use of the term in the legal world is when something that is already a crime is "enhanced" by the person's motivations- For example, if I hit you, it's assault and battery; if I hit you because you're black, it's still assault and battery, but I might get an add'l penalty because it was also a hate crime. The Supreme Court says that this is allowed, in Wisconson v. Mitchell (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/12/us/the-supreme-court-hate-crimes-justices-uphold-stiffer-sentences-for-hate-crimes.html).

Nobody paints swastikas on buildings because no one would support a business in that building, not because it is illegal. It's a good system we've got going here.

> "Piece of cloth"?
>
> Obviously, you've never seen it
> draped over a loved one.

Thanks for that, Raddy. Sometimes I let 'em slide by, because one can't pick a fight after every post.

I agree that the spirit and letter of the First Amendment ought to protect flag burners.

But when people get all arrogant about it, it's like, how much of an asshole do you want to be? Do you want to hurt the feelings of people who take their freedom and their country seriously? Are you really that smart and courageous in your own right that you can afford to be so snide?

It's like the "pro-choice" people who actually get upset when abortion rates go down. They're not pro-choice, they want a harvest.

I mean, "Please burn the flag"? Really? That's how it works for you?

This is idea to ban flag burning is the equivalent of having a tattoo of a bleeding heart with I LOVE CINDY" placed on your bicep. A great idea but....

You have to remember people this is a LAW you are taking about. And laws are like tattoos. You think a tattoo is a great idea just before get it.... until you get have it. Half the time you look at what you have put on or made law and you think - GOD that is not what wanted or it was not what I thought it would look like . Of course half the other time you love it. Until you have to start facing the consequences. Behaviors change. That girl who used to flirt with you know looks at you like you are biker scum. Those little American flag toothpick you loved putting on your Fourth of July burgers are now nowhere to be found as the company decided to stop producing in the small possibility of future lawsuits. That job you are perfect for is a no go because of your tattoo (not in our work place mister!). That cause you support is suppressed because just maybe the flags you carry and love might get hurt or burned.

Laws like tattoos once made are really bloody difficult to get rid of. True you can get rid of a tattoo but the same as with laws it takes time, money, and even in the end you still have a mark or a faded law with its consequences still around.

A laws like tattoos change and morph and fade over time so you end up with a completely different law half the time.

You think it is was used to stop some annoying radical hippies. Until you find out that arsonist who burned down a empty house got an extra 10 years in jail because there was an flag pole with an old flag left on it. Or whoops that picture of you from 10 years ago at a rally where a flag is burned a flag when you where stupid and impressionable now gets you fired and fined or jailed. Or forgot that little addition a few years later that makes defacing the picture on the President or a bible or Koran illegal.

Laws are not always the answer....

Remember that laws at times means giving up something it maybe for the great good but many times it may be for one groups good. Or just a bad sale overall.

It seems to me that, if someone burns the flag as a form of protest (rather than the proper method of disposing a worn-out flag), then they are saying that everything the flag stands for is wrong, and they don't want to be associated with it. You can't logically claim that they are saying that the system is flawed and they are trying to provoke change, because there is no symbology to the flag that would support that claim. Incidentally, if someone in another country wants to do this, fine. They are giving good information about their opinion

If an American Citizen does this, however, I believe that the simple and only punishment should be a revocation of their citizenship, and a one-way ticket to the country of their choice. And they'd better hope that they would be welcomed there, because they would not be allowed back in. Because they made the statement that, basically, they want nothing to do with this country any more, so they should be prepared to live with the consequences.

It's funny how our domestic flag burners never leave, isn't it? I'd be too embarrassed to do something so ineffective. It's like marching with an "ignore me" sign.

Mind reader? How would you know they are saying "everything" the flag stands for is wrong?

I don't have to be a mind reader. Words (and actions) have meanings. There is only one reasonable meaning to the burning of the flag, no matter what one wants it to mean. Burning any symbol (except in certain very specific circumstances, such as I mentioned above) is the symbolic destruction of what it stands for. Thus, it is equivalent to saying that the whole system must be destroyed and recreated.

And what if they are? They're apparently trying to improve things with their dissent.

You may decide to demolish a house in order to rebuild it better, but to do that to a society is unrealistic and way overboard. If it gets to the point that such a thing is needed, flag burning is not going to do anything anyway, and people will be reaching for their guns instead.

No matter how one hate their own country or hate other people countries, one should never purposely burn any flags. tolerating anarchy is never a good thing. why don't they burn their own islamic flag(symbol of oppression) if they like burning flag so much. those savage flag burners in asia(eg, malaysia) are setting a bad example, with them trying to provoke us (unsuccessfully) with their flag burning antics. and even worst is those asian governments seems to be keeping quiet over this kind of savage antics. It seems those islamic/asian governments are condonning such violence without voicing any protest (due no doubt to their own kind of nasty people who are doing it). that just make one mad. It is weird how one small criticism of their religion can provoke them into so much violent frenzy while we have to watch in disgust at their violent antics. It is time those selfseeking publicity seeking savage flag burners search their own conscience or ask their own asiatic/eastern/islamic governments for aid instead of trying to extort some undeserved aid from other western governments via flag burning, etc or via intimidating other innocent travellers like us.

Most libertarians are frauds - and this is because libertarianism is not/can not be a popular ideology. Attempts to mass-recruit result in the dilution and distortion of it into some idiot caricature like conservatards or 'civil libertarians'.

Heres the straight libertarian rule:
Dog fighting is legal. animals are property.
Child pornography is legal to possess and distribute. It may not be legal to produce, depending on your definition of 'child' and 'pornography'. In any case, owning pictures of criminal acts is not itself criminal.

If you disagree, you are not a libertarian, and need to shut your dumb fucking mouth and stop pretending to be.