Obviously, we shouldn't fear death. Pointless to fear what will happen. Otherwise, he's full of shit. Humans have matter and energy-neither of which disappear. They just change form.

I'm not sure what happens when we die-no one is. But something happens.

I know what happens after death; I spent several months helping move graves out of a lake basin before it was flooded.

We turn to compost. If we've been embalmed, the process takes a long time. If not, it goes pretty fast. One set of bones I took up was completely enmeshed in the roots of a cedar tree growing next to the grave. So the matter and energy of that person changed to the form first of mold and bacteria, then of a cedar tree. After the lake flooded the cedar tree, it rotted and its matter and energy got taken up by microscopic aquatic plants and animals, which got eaten by minnows, which got eaten by crappies and bass, which got eaten by people (as well as eagles, raccoons, otters, and so on).

I feel no need for any further salvation than this: knowing that my body concentrates elements from the biosphere and that when I lose the power to hold them together, they will disperse into it again.

In order for a false statement to be a lie, the speaker needs to know that it is a lie. If someone tells you what they really and truly believe, they're not lying, even if what they believe is false.

That waqs really well said Axman...

"I feel no need for any further salvation than this"

I do. Just think of the Naked Maja:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goya_Maja_naga2.jpg

She died 200 years ago, but thanks to Goya, all I have to do is open a book, and there she is, warm, naked, and waiting to be fucked, for all eternity. Now that's the sort of life after death I can appreciate wholeheartedly.

People don't fear death as much as they fear this life ending, because this life is all that they have ever known. It is a subtlety to be sure... but I haven't figured out why modern people have such a problem discussing it. Those that have religion have no reason to fear, because they have a set of guidelines to get to the next gig. Those that don't do religion just know that it's going to end someday so they have to take a best shot at this life. Maybe it's because the time is uncertain? But Hitchens is right about not knowing when you are dead. That's a baseline, no matter who is correct about what happens after. Either you are going to be right in your belief, or wrong, and you won't know until you get there.

I think that humanity is either naive about their understanding of reality, or astoundingly arrogant to believe that everything can be known. That's why I hope the Large Hadron Collider DOESN'T find the Higgs, but something no-one was expecting, because that will push everything forward. The reason all that is important is because our understanding of reality is the basis for our understanding of this life. The more we find out we don't understand this reality [dark matter anyone?] the more we will search with an open mind. If we are truly able to prove someday that there are in fact 11 or more dimensions [the LHC might help with that], that will turn our understanding of this life on it's ear. Because those other dimensions will likely be unknowable for us... because of our limited ability to sense them. We are still just children groping in a dark room.

heh, Martin, it appears that the object of perfection is blocked by the wiki... I can see it on goya's page, but once you click she bacomes a red x. However, even clothed she is schmokin' hot.

Yes, Martin. Your comment exemplifies my definition of "spirit": the mental construct of a person's habits of speech and action. As long as Leigh's friends and relations still say, "That sounds like something Leigh would have said," or "Leigh would have loved this," Leigh's spirit is still with them.

We draw from and give back to the cultural stream just as we do to the biosphere.

And thanks for the compliment, Eric.

Death is immaterial. A Life worth living is "Heaven".

"Heaven" or "Hell" is what you make of your life here on Earth through choices. Small and large.

Much of my disagreements surrounding religion is you are "waiting" to live the good life, after you can no longer enjoy it. Your rewards are reserved for some other time, long after you've become fish food. (And only if you play by the rules layed out to you by other faulty humans. I ain't buyin it).

What I am doing right NOW, is all there is to it. One step closer to "Heaven" here on Earth, or "Hell".

"I feel no need for any further salvation than this: knowing that my body concentrates elements from the biosphere and that when I lose the power to hold them together, they will disperse into it again."

...and Life goes on.

Fix

MANY of my disagreements surrounding religion ARE THAT.... (bleh)

as if they actually have evidence there's such a place.

As if Hitchens actually has any awareness of "morality" that would enable him to pontificate on "the height of immorality".

Since there is no more evidence for "morality" (let alone the "height of immorality") than there is for the non-material existence of the soul, juxtaposing these things in this way as Hitchens does is both arrogant and ignorant.

It's fine for Amy to talk about sociobiology and so on, but ultimately that's just attempting to redeem the remarkably persistent notions that we have that some things are Right and some are wrong).

Aba, what planet do you call home?

I got one and only one problem with what Axman wrote.

> my body concentrates elements from
> the biosphere and that when I lose
> the power to hold them together,
> they will disperse

To call it "losing the power" suggests that your present corporeal excellence is an act of will. But not only are we all desperately reliant on this (yes) strong economy, well-protected nation, effective educational system, etc.... But (Amy's daydreams to the contrary) we're not personally responsible for our biological processes either. Holdjer breath, you pass out. There are people so stupid they can't type their shoes or wipe their own butts; but their bodies are, to a remarkable extent, as "powerful" as your own.

A whole, whole lot of what makes a Sunday afternoon great when you're a human being comes from other forces and from people who you actually might not like very much.

It ain't all about us.

It seems we behave well to others out of self-interest. We appear to have reciprocal altruism, cheater detection, and all sorts of other behaviors hard-wired.

If "it seems" to be a certain way to you or Hitchens, then it might "seem" a different way to me. Where does Hitchens earn the uniquely privileged access he claims?

... and all sorts of other behaviors hard-wired.

Some commonly found hardwired behaviours include: finding homosexuality repulsive, ascribing evil traits to outgroups (ie. "demonizing the other") etc. We train ourselves to overcome these instincts, so obviously our idea of what's moral comes from elsewhere.

We lie to ourselves and each other all the time. If I get cancer, I want to know what's wrong with me down to the lymph node. Still, tomorrow, I will tell my mother that of course she has more than a few months to live, and of course she will be at my wedding. If she asks, I'll even tell her Jesus and grandma are watching over her, and I'll beat the hell out of the first person who tries to tell her otherwise. It makes me a flaming hypocrite, but a content one.

> It is a subtlety to be sure...

It ain't subtlety, it's auto-eroticism— Folks just love their own darned selves. Their hatred of death is unidirectional. The faithful will scoff when you tell them that their existence will one day be terminated. But they're never troubled by not having been present for all the magnificent stuff that happened before they were born, because they don't think their was any.

> Where does Hitchens earn the
> uniquely privileged access he
> claims?

For starters, he's more fun to read than you are.

Yeah, Crid, "lose the power" does sound all megalomaniacal. Didn't mean it that way; I was just working from the unstated metaphor of devices that can't function any more because the batteries have run down. A purely electrochemical process.

Your wording wasn't at all clumsy. I've just decided to become hypercritical.

Partly, I'm trying to keep the blades sharp for the next visit to the Indiana homestead, when the God botherers ask me to join them in prayer....

But also, there are a lot of people who've supplanted a typical religious belief with a similarly self-aggrandizing intellectual faith. There are a lot of atheists who think the whole point of the universe was to generate a human race... And then, by happenstance, to generate a learned, well-groomed, terribly serious by very attractive person much like themselves! Whaddya know!

The homestead is a college town. If I attend the right parties, I have a shot at offended both types of believers in a single evening! But I gotta stay in shape. Nothign personal.

If "it seems" to be a certain way to you or Hitchens, then it might "seem" a different way to me. Where does Hitchens earn the uniquely privileged access he claims?
Posted by douchebag, I mean aba

He gets his from years of study

Where did you eran yours?

There used to be a term "rice Christian" to describe people lured to convert by menas of hand out. This is the same kind of thing.

I believe love is a force and that it is the unified field. That is what survives and persists. The individual is a vessel of love, or not, but either way, temporary and secondary.

OTOH:
"It seems we behave well to others out of self-interest. We appear to have reciprocal altruism, cheater detection, and all sorts of other behaviors hard-wired. "

This applies to whatever group you consider yourself a member of. The fancy term is "amoral familism". It doesn't apply to olutsiders. There's no adavantage to me to save some lost infant I find on the sidewalk.