Know this: If this happens, black markets will provide healthcare for the majority of Americans within a generation.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but if everyones health care is going to be paid thru taxation then why the fuck would we need to pay again to buy the policy we are already paying for thru taxes?

Silly lujlp, it's all about the fairness.

See, you're white. It's only fair that you pay twice for healthcare. After all, you're a child of privilege.

Basically, if this shit goes through, i have two choices - break the law by not paying my taxes, or break the law by not buying insurance. Because I don't have a spare 10 grand a year lying around, and that's what this shit's gonna cost me.

What is really sick is the fact that they only mention taxes for people earning more than $250k per year. That way, the average Joe is supposed to figure that he won't be paying more. Screw the rich, an all that.

But if you do the calculations, there is just no way that taxing only high incomes will cover the bill. It's clearly a strategy of "get the bill through", and then when it's too late - raise taxes on everybody else.

It's either total cynicism, or else the politicians are even more incompetent that one thought...

Why didn't Republican Congressmen let us know that the Democrat bill would make it illegal to change your health insurance without buying it from the government? Why did it take a newspaper to read the bill? The Democrats lie about the bill, and the Republicans apparently don't even read it.

OKay, I know we're all against al qaieda (yes, I know, sp) and all, but I think at the moment, they might be our best friends. If only we could convince them to bomb DC in the next week. I think that's the only thing that will save us.

I adore my healthcare. I do NOT want to lose it, and I bet you I will if this goes through. Fucking assholes, every single person in DC.

Ahhh! More taxes. I'm so comforted by this new president and congressional majority.

Wait until cap and trade hits. More taxes.

Are Obama voters feeling comforted by his charisma now?

Forgive my Downunder ignorance but what about those estimated 20 million illegal immigrants living in the US right now? Will they be covered by the proposed universal health care but not paying any taxes towards it?

> Know this: If this happens, black markets
> will provide healthcare for the majority of
> Americans within a generation.

Are there any Western countries with socialized medicine where there is a significant black market for health care?

The US was the black market

>>Are there any Western countries with socialized medicine where there is a significant black market for health care?

That's a good question, Snoopy (& lujlp's reply was a cracker!).

The only thing that comes to mind is the perennial shock horror exclusive tabloid story about transplant organs for sale to the rich after being "bought" from poor eastern European immigrants to the UK. (The sources are usually 90% hearsay...).

But I figure that's not really what you mean.

Well, this certainly makes that idea of moving to Ireland look better and better. If I have to have universal crap government healthcare, I might as well live someplace with better scenery. Now to find a job...

GMan: I am not entirely sure, but I believe the intent is to explicitly include the illegal aliens in the program. Heck, they already are: read blogs like Crasspolination, and you'll see that people without health insurance just show up at any emergency room, and are full entirely entitled to treatment - of anything at all, down to and including "I want an ultrasound of my fetus".

Are there any Western countries with socialized medicine where there is a significant black market for health care?

The US was the black market.

I don't know if you can call it a western country, but India is/was getting popular for higher end treatment that the U.S. uninsured are hitting.

On the "page 16" bit, you might want to check this out - http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/07/good-to-know.html.

Turns out that bit about not being issued after the effective date of the bill is part of the definition of grandfathered coverage. Then the bill has a few instances of specific provisions about grandfathered health coverage, while newly-issued private coverage meets other requirements.

So basically, this bill will mean that if you buy private health coverage after its effective date, it will be in some way *different* from the coverage you could have contracted for before the date of the bill - but it doesn't prevent insurers from offering private coverage after the date of the bill.

Black markets always arise in response to prohibition of scarce goods. So, black markets will arise to provide medical care. Such markets already exist in the US. I've had a dental implant (for a molar cracked in a boxing bout) made for me at 1/10th the cost, in that black market by an unlicensed dental technician from Costa Rica. Crid's observation is elementary and uninteresting.

It also misses the point. The bill doesn't outlaw medical care, instead it effectively outlaws private insurance. Not outright, but by placing limitations on marketing and coverage offerings. Eventually the insurance companies won't be able to spread the risk over a large enough population, and then the actuaries will have to cut the coverages altogether.

The government seeks to control medical care by controlling how you can pay for medical care. This is not elementary, and it is interesting.

By taking a sufficiently large cut out of income, the government can ensure it's hard to use the black market, especially when people feel they've already paid for medical care.

I suspect it will be just like public schools. Everyone has to pay for them. And even people who could marginally afford to use them, won't. They're paying for it anyway. So they seek to locate near good schools. I suspect there will be pressure to likewise relocate near good health facilities. People will flock to better facilities, and the government will likely restrict their use by geography - just like public schools.

but it doesn't prevent insurers from offering private coverage after the date of the bill.

Actually, it does. They have to offer it THROUGH the government (see page 19).

This bill is about several things. One of them is the final crushing of small business under the heels of the corporatist/fascist state.

It's wonderful. Since I didn't have insurance at the beginning of this year, but after this bill passes purchasing it will be mandatory, I have no choice but to buy from the government, unless I sell my business to a big corporation and become an employee to get into their insurance pool.

You know what's most depressing about this?

I stand to lose everything I've worked my whole life for due to the policies of an imbecile who's been in power less than a year.

A man who would not have been there but for the sycophantic media who could not keep their lips off his cock long enough to bother to tell the American people who he really is.

52% of the American people voted to destroy my life, and the lives of everyone like me. What the fuck did we ever do to you to deserve this?

Ace has a nifty public service message from the government here:
http://minx.cc/?post=289779
Just remember you are only going to get The Best!(tm) from your government.

Brian said:

"You know what's most depressing about this?

I stand to lose everything I've worked my whole life for due to the policies of an imbecile who's been in power less than a year.

A man who would not have been there but for the sycophantic media who could not keep their lips off his cock long enough to bother to tell the American people who he really is.

52% of the American people voted to destroy my life, and the lives of everyone like me. What the fuck did we ever do to you to deserve this?"

Well said and I totally agree. It depresses the crap out of me. It seems like each and every day the news gets worse. Just came back from a lunch time "protest" about this issue and lots of people feel the same way... the feeling of being without recourse is strong... I now know what it means to be disenfranchised. Its like our voices don't exist...

Well, it looks like the move to Switzerland is happening... next summer. Hubby got the offer. We did the numbers and... our taxes are going DOWN!!! Our income is going up... and our taxes are sinking! In a country that has free University and excellent social security (AVS) and less debt than we do!

WTF??????

I am happy, of course, but wondering why the hell we are paying socialist taxes and getting shit for service in this country.

Nicole -

The answer you seek lies in what we are.

This nation is fascist in all but name. The government confiscates the wealth of the productive and redirects it to the politically-connected.

Which is why the UAW owns a large chunk of GM and Chrysler, the Teamsters are about to get a chunk of Federal Express, and no government is seriously considering laying off AFSCME employees.

Capisce?

> it's all about the fairness.

Hey, ever'body! Brian has thoughts to share about health insurance!

> lujlp's reply was a cracker!).

It's the best thing he's ever said about anything, ever.

> Crid's observation is elementary
> and uninteresting.

You peon. Without me, you're nothing! Nothing!

> You know what's most depressing
> about this? I stand to lose
> everything I've worked my
> whole life for

An uninsured forty year old who rides motorbikes and hates helmets is going to have a tough time make us share the depth of the offense he feels in this new condition of risk.

Crid, I've had enough of your personal crusade of douchebaggery.

You don't fucking get it, do you? When this law passes, I won't be able to buy insurance.

Of course, if you had anything resembling reading skills, you'd read the whole of what I posted and see that I stand to lose the one insurance policy I did manage to find before I even have an opportunity to buy it.

Oh, and if you even try to take credit for my so doing, I'll fly out to LA and punch you in the mouth.

I know you're just champing at the bit to say you've influenced me, but you've had no (actually, you've had negative) impact on my decision process.

An uninsured forty year old who rides motorbikes and hates helmets is going to have a tough time make us share the depth of the offense he feels in this new condition of risk.

Oh, and one more thing about this little piece of arrogance:

All the risks I've taken up to now I've taken with knowledge and acceptance of those risks.

Now, I've got a new risk that's being imposed upon me, I didn't ask for it, I didn't vote for it, and I can't opt out of it.

The only thing I can say is I knew it was coming, and I was completely powerless to stop it.

52% of the people of this nation (and better than 60% of the people of this state) put an imbecile in charge of the executive branch to assuage their "white guilt". And this on top of handing every elected federal position to liberal democrats too.

Well, it seems like Washington opinion is starting to not go Fearless Leader's way... There was a panicky press conference this afternoon, full of meaningless platitudes and shopworn campaign slogans, no questions taken. Don't throw in the towel yet, folks.

I don't think this will get through. Blue Dog's rural residents are going ape shit over having to pay illegal alien costs of healthcare. I think that alone is enough to sink this bitch.

The rurals aren't stupid. Hospitals are required to treat illegals for free under federal law. Words out.

I hope that cap and fart bill goes down with it too. I'm getting sick of this crap already.

> All the risks I've taken up to
> now I've taken with knowledge
> and acceptance of those risks.

Nope, you've been counting on your surrounding community to cover drastic and long long-term care costs in the event of a none-too-improbable event, and this makes tough guy talk seem inappropriate. If fact, I think it makes a LOT of commentary inappropriate. Obama's turning us into a nation of Brians.

Crid - you can continue to tell yourself that lie until the sun burns out. It will never be true.

Oh, and if you think that anyone other than government covers "long long-term care costs" you're off your chump. I'd bet that even Amy's "no lifetime limit" won't cover long-term convalescent care.

You can continue to use your stupid argument that my commentary is inappropriate. You can also shove your opinion about me straight up your ass until it comes out your ear, for all I care.

The long and short of it remains that if this health-care bill goes through, I will finally be unable to get health care. I won't be able to buy private insurance, I won't qualify for government insurance, and it will likely be illegal to pay cash for services.

Obama to the self-employed: Drop Dead.

Brian, how could it not be true? You complain often enough of penury that we can believe you sincere; by what imaginable set of circumstances is the rest of the world not responsible when something goes wrong for you?

You got money for plane tickets, you got money for insurance, little feller...

When have I ever complained of a lack of cash?

Oh yeah, NEVER.

I never said I could not afford insurance. I said that nobody offered insurance that I considered to be worth the excessive amount of money they were charging.

Perhaps you think that $300-$400 a month is an acceptable rate to pay for services you will almost certainly never use. I do not.

Until the industry wises up and offers insurance instead of we take your money and use it to subsidise other people's irresponsible lifestyles, I'll self-insure.

But you're too blinkered by this straw-brian of your own creation to actually read and understand what I've been saying these many years.

Oh, and if you'd been bothered to pay attention (which you haven't, because you've got this island of sand in your vagina) you'd have picked up on the fact that I recently managed to find just such a program being offered in my state. And the reason the Obambicare thing has me so pissed off is this:

Now that I've finally found an actual insurance plan (after looking for 5 years), I may not be able to keep it because they wanna outlaw individual insurance plans that don't go through the government.

In closing, Fuck You.

Brian,
I wish you'd grasp why you're failing to win sufficiently horrified sympathy in some quarters.

Yes, as you keep explaining: ..."I stand to lose the one insurance policy I did manage to find before I even have an opportunity to buy it."

But you sound like those annoying people who go on about how traumatized they are -because, honest injun! - they had really, really, really been about to buy a ticket for the plane that crashed!!

Jody -

Way to completely miss the point.

There are people out there who think that the universal healthcare thing is just lovely. After all, for the Crids it offers the force of government behind compulsory membership. For the Jodys, it covers everyone.

Except that all of that is complete hokum, but the Crids and Jodys don't want to see that. They'd rather give the Brians shit for neither paying into a system (HMO) that does not offer them any benefit, nor supporting a system (Obamacare) that will cause more death than it prevents.

Let me lay it out for you nice and simple. As an engineer, I am intimately familiar with the "Law of Unintended Consequences." It is my belief, based upon watching politicians for the last two decades, that there are no unintended consequences in Washington, D.C.

A simple reading of the the few excerpts that have been published in this healthcare takeover indicate its true intent. Permanently enslave the lower class, destroy the entrepreneurial class, and allow the megacorporations to continue to use the government as a means to eliminate competition.

Also note that Medicare has recently announced its intention to save money by REDUCING what it pays doctors &c. They already pay below market for goods and services. Doctors routinely mark up what they charge insurance companies to make up for it. Doctors are now refusing to take medicare patients because they can no longer afford to remain in business doing so.

The kicker is that the proposals in DC currently are to use the Medicare payment schedule to determine what they pay for everyone in the "public" insurance plan. Which means, ultimately, that there will be few or no doctors willing to take patients from Medicare or Obamacare.

Which leads me to my initial point. If the law passes as written, I will not be able to purchase private insurance. I will be forced into the government insurance, which in all likelihood means that I will be unable to get medical services covered by it due to the fee structure it imposes. Which means that I will be paying for an insurance program that is utterly useless, and still paying cash for my health care -- until the point where such is outlawed as it is in Canada.

If you can read the excerpt from IBD and not conclude that among its many intentions, Obamacare will fuck the self-employed up the ass, I can't help you analyze it.

Brian.
Yes, I get your point: If the law passes as written, I will not be able to purchase private insurance.

This is the insurance it took you - a single man responsible only for himself (and his dog, if I recall correctly) five long years to find. Given all your other spending priorities, right?

And that you hadn't quite yet bought, funnily enough.

Five years? You could've written Hamlet three times over in five years - in your spare time:)

And –again, yet again, as over the past three years or so that we've discussed this– you didn't explain how the rest of us could not be expected to wipe your ass (perhaps over another another forty years) if you cracked open your temple on a fire hydrant.

(Now, as you mull it over, don't become distracted by this scenario's many charms: Today we're concentrating on the bad part, on how the rest of the community will be on the hook for your neuro$urgery and $ponge baths and $trained carrots.)

> - a single man responsible only
> for himself (and his dog

And approaching the start of his fifth decade, remember. This is not a dishwashing teenager who hasn't seen the city yet.

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/07/well-it-is-sort-of-an-option.html

> When have I ever complained
> of a lack of cash?
>
> Oh yeah, NEVER.

Oh sorry... I misunderstood.

Actually, this one is more to the point. Treatment for a proper motorcycle accident can reach two hundred grand in about forty hours.

------

('But why, Crid? Why? Why do you enjoy torturing Brian this way?' I hear you ask.

Because he thinks like a Democrat: Everyone else in the the world is just a stupid but evil person who only wants to take the candy from his pocket: Women, governments, bosses, everyone.

This strikes me as disproportionate. The fact that sometimes we're compelled to pay prices we don't like doesn't mean the whole world's out to get us. It doesn't mean we can warp the marketplace so that our particular needs are met. And it certainly doesn't mean we can put others at risk for problems we ought to handle on our own.)

90% of motorcycle accidents are fatal. I'd say he's playing the stats pretty safe. And none of us like the Obama plan-does it matter why each personally feels that way?

> I'd say he's playing the
> stats pretty safe.

He plays them on our behalf: 90% is not good enough, methinks.

This is the insurance it took you - a single man responsible only for himself (and his dog, if I recall correctly) five long years to find. Given all your other spending priorities, right?

How about because until recently no such thing existed? The idea of "individual" insurance is new. Everything was "group", and it costs big money to be part of the "group".

For instance, you see "MEGA" advertised on television. Well, you have to join this association or that, which is $25 or $40 a month, which pushes the premium up to over $200 a month for critical care and accident insurance, with a million dollar limit, and a $10,000 annual deductible.

Or you could join the Connecticut Business and Industry Association (CBIA) for however much their dues are, and get their cheapest plan (I think I could get it, even though I don't have employees) for about $300 a month.

Now, you do the math. $200/mo is $2400 per year. Which means I will have to spend 12,400/year before I get a penny out of MEGA. I don't know the deductible or coinsurance on any of CBIA's plans, but we're talking at least $3,600 out of pocket (and probably considerably more) there assuming there are none. Kaiser's not available in CT.

Well, Aetna came up with some high-deductible plans, but they cut them off at age 34, so those were right out. But the price was right - about $120 a month with a $5,000 deductible and no coinsurance.

Aetna is now offering a bunch of different individual insurance plans, and the one I've applied for (which is why I don't have it yet - it's not guaranteed-issue) is $129 a month, $3,000 deductible, no coinsurance, and a 3 million lifetime max.

Did I play the odds? Yep. And I won. And no matter how much Crid insists that I'd have been a burden on the state, there is no way in hell that would be possible unless I was rendered into a PVS. As long as I have real assets and family members, there's no way the government pays a penny.

Oh, and just to further tweak Criddo, several years ago, my brother (at the time, uninsured) cut his hand pretty bad on a saw. He's made payments on the care to put his hand back together. So you can shove your self-righteous indignation straight up your ass and twist it till you bleed.

We pay our way. We were raised better.

Oh, and Crid - nice way to dig up something from the past that is so completely NOT on point it hurts.

I mean, I understand that at your age the difference between "was" and "is" is too subtle to manage, but nearly 10 years have transpired between when I was in that position and now.

So ten years ago when you were thirty, you didn't have the character to protect your surrounding community. And now as you plunge into middle age, we're expected to believe that you've grown and seen the error of your ways?

You know what I like about insured people? They don't ask to be trusted. They don't need to be trusted: They're insured. There are no festering childhood psychodramas involved.

So ten years ago when you were thirty, you didn't have the character to protect your surrounding community. And now as you plunge into middle age, we're expected to believe that you've grown and seen the error of your ways?

Had nothing to do with character. I give (and gave) as much of a fuck about them as they gave about me - none.

You just can't wrap your little California mind around the idea that government isn't just rushing in to support every white guy that gets hurt.

And having insurance isn't much of a hedge anyhow. Any policy I could have afforded right after I lost my job would have had more of a deductible than I could have covered anyhow. I would have been making payments just to cover that.

You seem to think that insurance is some magic fairy-dust that imbues responsibility upon those who buy it. I see it as precisely the opposite. People without insurance tend to take far worse care of themselves because they think they have no cost to bear when they fall ill.

You can think as little of me as you like. But at this point in my life, I've saved somewhere between $20,000 and $30,000 not buying insurance that was meant to cover conditions I'm biologically incapable of experiencing.

As I said before, you are a bitter old man who is angry at the fact that someone younger than you found a way to beat the system. You've paid more into the health insurance scam than you will EVER pull out of it, and you're pissed.

Insurance is supposed to protect against the big risks. You don't have a "house maintenance organization" policy to get you a new roof every 20 years with a minor co-pay, why should you have something like that for health that pays for four doctor visits a year with a $20 co-pay? Who the fuck goes to the doctor four times a year?

Oh yeah, hypochondriacs, sick people and reckless people.

By way of comparison, I've been to the doctor maybe a dozen times in the past two decades, and that includes the time I was employed with employer-provided insurance.

So you go on paying your $500 a year, and going to the doctor a whole bunch just to use it up. Keep overburdening the system with every little sniffle you get, and wonder why the cost of care keeps increasing.

I'll pay cash for the basic shit, and find someone who is willing to insure me against catastrophe. Because it seems that at least ONE company is listening to the 10 million or so who are uninsured by choice.

But, if I do get sick, I've paid into the system for many years, and continue to pay.

And they don't give a fuck. They only care about how much they pay out this fiscal year versus premiums. If you become a threat to their profitability, you won't get renewed, or your premiums will jump through the roof.

You and Crid both seem to hold insurance companies in high regard. I have friends in that industry. Believe me, they don't give a flying fuck about you. They've got you by the shorthairs, and they know it.

The only thing this new Obamacare thing does is change who's pulling. And they care even less about you, because they don't need to turn a profit. In fact, it's in their interest for you to die young.

> You can think as little of
> me as you like

After a few years of this, I'm no longer sure that's true.

Crid -

This is just for you. Penn Jillette agrees with me.

You mean, like Penn and Teller? Saw them New Year's Eve 1990 at the Wiltern in Los Angeles... An OK show! Not great, but whatever. Afterward we went for tacos and margaritas at the famous El Cholo restaurant.

Since then I've not paid much attention, except for one internet video, wherein he confessed that maybe all the Christian people he'd been mocking over the years weren't really the monsters he'd been assuming the were....

... Ah, here, Google comes through. Notice that this is the best part of twenty years since my last encounter with Mr. Jillette. Notice also that our encounter is uncomfortably intimate (much like Brian's posts!):

• We look up his nostrils

• We watch him groom his hair

• We watch him fuss with his eyewear

• We watch him lick his lips

• We watch him struggle to form sentences, as if he were having a profoundly spiritual experience

And, most of all...

• We watch him describe and entirely typical social encounter with embarrassing naivete. Believers are people, too!

So anyway Brian, you're saying he agrees with you? I doubt that very seriously. I'd bet that if Penn Jillette had been subject to all the incessent bitterness and juvenile sarcasm that you've projected into this blog, he'd think you were wackazoid, too.

Tell you what. Shoot him an email, include all your inane comments from this blog, and let us know what he says...

And we'll take that for what it's worth.

A better view of El Cholo.

I fuckin' love the internet!

I've been to El Cholo. Great food. Met up with a bunch of online friends there a few years back. There weren't any earthquakes that I remember while I was there.

And you're the only real target of my bitterness and sarcasm. Know why? Because you deserve it.

Although I imagine that our betters in Washington will make sure that you can't hurt yourself by eating as such places in the future.

But hey, it's a small price to pay for universal coverage, right?

So the reason you're not counting on the rest of us to care for you if you get very sick is:_____________.

You are denser than depleted uranium.

Tell me how I am counting on anyone other than myself. Tell me how I qualify for any government payout scheme at all. I don't.

I don't. I'm not counting on you because I cannot.

Of course, that doesn't matter to you. In your mind, anyone who doesn't buy some form of "insurance" is no more than a common thief. A bum to be tossed out the window and ignored as immature, selfish, and unworthy.

Admit it for what it is, Crid. You're pissed because I'm not paying for YOUR old ass. Not because you think you'll somehow be paying for mine.

> I'm not counting on you
> because I cannot.

You keep saying that. It's not true.

You crack your head open and require expensive treatment to survive; will the community leave you out on the street bleeding, or will it pay for the surgery? This is America. It will pay for the surgery: That's the law. You're counting on the goodness of strangers, no less than does an indigent illegal alien.

The moral and practical clarity of Amy's example across her similarly-long lifetime is a beacon to us all. (Same here, by the way: Paid for my own insurance since the day I graduated college.) That you can continue to comment on these matters is Blog America's best example of shameless, infantile solipsism. You're cheating.

By the way, you don't actually have insurance, right? You've just "found" some.

We wanna be clear, Brian!

That's the law. You're counting on the goodness of strangers, no less than does an indigent illegal alien.

Actually, it isn't. They aren't required to give me treatment for free. They are entitled to payment. So unless I end up in a PVS, they'll eventually get their money. I still can't see how you can't get that through your thick head. It's almost like you've never met anyone that works in HR who's had to handle paycheck attachment.

Although I'm glad you bring up the "illegal alien" and "indigent" part. I didn't set up the system this way, but wouldn't it be stupid of me to not take advantage of it if I could? Lucky for you, I'm not the type to do that. Of course, you're incapable of believing that. Projection much? Still waiting for that knock on the door when the last guy you stiffed finally catches up with you?

That you can continue to comment on these matters is Blog America's best example of shameless, infantile solipsism. You're cheating.

"We're sorry, you don't have the requisite experience to have an opinion on this matter."

By the way, you don't actually have insurance, right? You've just "found" some.

If you'd actually READ instead of going off on your little tirades about how immature Brian is, you'd see the word "applied". In my world, that means that an offer to purchase has been made, and is pending approval from the other side.

We wanna be clear, Brian!

No you don't, you want to be your smug little arrogant self.

Assigning some high moral value to purchase of a product that may or may not serve a purpose is asinine. It's no better than assigning a moral value to one's choice of automobile.

> they'll eventually get their money.

You should do that with all your debts. Food, gas, clothing, taxes... As the transaction begins, tell the vendors "You'll eventually get your money."

> If you'd actually READ

I just don't love you enough. Neither do your creditors. They don't want to hear your life story; they don't want to consider things from your perspective.

> Assigning some high moral value
> to purchase of a product

It's not that... It's that nobody likes a cheat. We especially hate one who has to be wordy about it.

No, you're just a douchebag.

>>I've saved somewhere between $20,000 and $30,000 not buying insurance that was meant to cover conditions I'm biologically incapable of experiencing...

Brian,
So what prompted you to "apply" to buy health insurance now?

Don't hate.

When you take a new client, are you cool when they tell you you'll get your money eventually?

Crid -

You seriously need to get off this high horse of yours. You look like a complete tool. You obviously know dick about business, because every time an invoice goes out, the terms are nothing more than a suggestion. If my customer goes bankrupt, I get nothing.

Jody:

So what prompted you to "apply" to buy health insurance now?

Why the scare quotes? Are you seriously operating under the delusion that individual health insurance is something you just go pick up off the shelf and pay for?

Fuck no! Unlike you people in group insurance, I actually have to be evaluated to see if I'm a sane risk. Which is one of the major reasons that "group" health insurance is so damned expensive. The laws governing group HMO/PPO policies almost always require them to be "guaranteed issue".

As to why now, and not when I first started my business? Simple. I've got something to lose now. I've been looking for a reasonable policy since I bought the house. It's kind of depressing that it took three years for something useful to be offered.

> terms are nothing more
> than a suggestion.

Really? That's how commerce works in America? I had no idea. I guess I've been made soft and naive by working freelance in Hollywood teevee.

So –again, Brian– when your clients begin a transaction by saying you'll "eventually get [your] money", maybe after you've sued them or something, your response is: _______________.

(?)

If they're that up front about it? The same response the hospital ought to be allowed to make.

No.

Again, you aren't winning this argument. I'm perfectly willing to gamble using the terms of the game. You don't like that the game is rigged? Change it. The rules say that payment on credit is acceptable. If the hospitals don't like it, they can lobby to have it changed. Obviously, they get enough people to pay on terms that it's worth the hassle.

So you're saying you're prefectly comfortable receiving services you don't pay for.

Good to know! We'll bear that in mind as discussions continue.

PS- No group insurance here....

So you're saying you're prefectly comfortable receiving services you don't pay for.

Good to know! We'll bear that in mind as discussions continue.

Except I never said that. You might think I said it, but you have to twist the fuck out of my words. Or resort to your standing assault against my character where you insinuate that I am the kind of person who doesn't pay his debts. My FICO score would tend to put the lie to that particular character assassination.

So what it is is you want me to pay for other people's care in advance in the hopes that they might pay for mine at some future date, should I need it? Is that what you're suggesting?

Fuck that.

I'll pay for the services as I receive them. If I have to incur debt to do that, I'm fine with it.

If you have a problem with debt spending, then I expect that you have no credit cards and you paid cash for your car and house.

Otherwise, you're the biggest fucking hypocrite on Earth.

> I'll pay for the services as
> I receive them.

So that "they'll eventually get their money" thing was just a misstatement, then? Since you've not made formal arrangements for these outcomes, your creditors will want to know which statements represent your current thinking and which are, in the Nixonian sense, inoperative.

> Otherwise, you're the biggest
> fucking hypocrite on Earth

Yes yes, everything's very grandiose and obscene and curare-tipped.

(Never carry a dime on the cards, one third down on the house, never been late and well ahead of schedule on the payments. And for the record, these people knew I'd be buying on credit when I approached them.)