Kinda offtopic— In all attention given to that other anniversary, I lost sight of the terminus of an important tradition this week: This will have been our last really great opportunity to make crass jokes about Mary Jo Kopechne.

If anyone feels they had a great one-liner that never got the attention it deserved, now's the time to let 'er rip.

Actually, before I saw your comment, I added her to the post.

The first is often the best anyway.

Damned good point. DAMNED good point.

They want a system for us that they do not want for themselves.

What is wrong with that picture?

Yep, the conceit of the elite. "All Animals are Equal, except some are more equal then others..." I think of in Canada... How some members of Parliment who get seriously sick just head on down to the US for treatment. They never have to wait for lists and that... I bet in Britain those elite polis will likely run off to some nice Switzerland Clinic when they need something. Got to look into that. Google away...

Hell if the US continues on it healthcare socialist beat I would not be amazed if some bill has a additon that all members of congress and senate will get treated at the nearest Military Hospital that the president gets to use.

Asshats. Every single one of them.

Maybe they'll forget to add "for life" to their exemption to the health care bill, and we can vote them out of office and force them into our plan. Maybe.

It really is a damn chutzpah.

I don't get it. Are you saying that the new healthcare bill should prevent people from paying for additional healthcare not covered by insurance? Because I don't think any one else is saying it should work that way.

It seems rather anti-competitive, for all you free-market types.

franko, are you dense?

How do you think they make the system work in Canada?

Or are you ok with two systems, one for the elite ruling class, and one for the peasantry?

Because that's where we're headed if Juggy and his Band of Idiots get their way.

It is time to expell every member of Congress who votes for this atrocity. If it's not good enough for them, it's not good enough for us.

> Or are you ok with two systems, one for the elite ruling class, and one for the peasantry?

What are you, a socialist? You're saying that everyone should have access to the same level of healthcare?

That's really progressive of you....

NO, idiot franko, he's saying he's not okay with us peasants being FORCED into one program, while they get another. Which is exactly what this bill will do.

We have no issue with people buying whatever plan they want, as long as we are free to do the same.

What are you, a socialist? You're saying that everyone should have access to the same level of healthcare?

That's really progressive of you....

Typical progg troll. Sharp as a bowling ball.

See, in my world, everyone has access to however much care they wish to afford.

In your world, nobody has access to world-class care since it can't be afforded for everyone. Well, except for the self-appointed progressive "rulers" who need to be kept healthy at any cost, since they have to make all the decisions for those pesky, stupid proles.

You seek to live in a perpetual second grade. "franko, did you bring enough MRI machines for everyone? Well, what makes you think you're so special you can have one when everyone else doesn't?"

And your MRI gets thrown in the garbage, and NOBODY gets one.

Which is fine with the proggs. Reduce the surplus population, and all that.

I don't get it. Are you saying that the new healthcare bill should prevent people from paying for additional healthcare not covered by insurance? Because I don't think any one else is saying it should work that way. (franko)

Uh, yeah they are. Hillary Care was supposed to work that way. Obama's proposal will eliminate private insurance over and above the public system.

A German friend of mine had to move his grandmother to the US, because the German Health Service refused to give her medical treatment after 70. They told her to go home and die. Instead, she moved here to the US, and has passed the 80 year old mark.

This kind of death rationing is inevitable under government health care systems. Obama wants the government to control your last days.

It really is the ultimate expression of Progressivism. The great Progressive exemplars, Wilson and FDR, were caught up in the specious notion of social studies as social science. They thought "experts" should run society and economy from powerful, unconstitutional government agencies.

Well, now the "experts" want to tell you how much and how to allocate resources towards preserving your life. This is very direct. In the name of social justice, progressives want to control your ability to preserve your own life.

Fuck that. And fuck progressives.

Thanks John Paulson for the reminder. You must see Animal Farm (on old movie from the 50's based on George Orwell's book). If I remember the quote accurately, it's "Some pigs are more equal than others." This is exactly what members of Congress are doing by exempting themselves from the rations program they plan to feed to us peons.

By the time they accomplish screwing up our healthcare system, none of us peons will have access to competent and timely healthcare.

I work in government; trust me, you don't want 'me' making decisions regarding whether or when you get your medical procedure.

If there was ever a time to focus on better diet and exercise, it's now. Preventive measures may be all medicine we get in the future.

> Obama's proposal will eliminate private insurance over and above the public system.

I haven't read the bill, and am suspicious of an ideologue's taking portions out of context. But my reading of the link you posted is that, except in some conditions (which aren't listed in the article) you won't be able to purchase new basic coverage that competes with the government option. It would surprise me if that makes it into law, but say it does -- it just means that all Americans are guaranteed a baseline minimum of care. It says nothing about people not being able to purchase supplemental insurance, or indeed supplemental procedures, above and beyond that basic coverage.

I can't imagine any way the government could, or would want to outlaw such supplemental coverage.

I also don't believe anyone on this board is genuinely outraged over the rich getting better coverage than the poor. Nor do I think anyone here is so naive to think that isn't currently the case.

I think you all have an odd ideological bent that makes you feel it's outrageous that "your" taxes should pay for something that benefits poor people, and you're throwing up a host of reasons that you claim raise your hackles about UHC.

You're not quite as entertainingly crazy as the birfers, but you're going down a parallel road, to be sure.

> Or are you ok with two systems,
> one for the elite ruling class,
> and one for the peasantry?

Will the get their money eventually? Jus' checkin'.....

it just means that all Americans are guaranteed a baseline minimum of care. It says nothing about people not being able to purchase supplemental insurance, or indeed supplemental procedures, above and beyond that basic coverage.

It says no such thing, and you know it.

What it says is everyone is entitled to a baseline minimum of coverage.

Coverage does not equate to care. Ask any Canadian who has a six month wait for basic services. Ask the Germans who get sent home to die. Ask the Britons who are sent to hospitals where "care" only happens accidentally.

Universal Health Care is neither.

I'm glad you think that makes us crazy. I think it makes us the only intelligent people in the room. The hallmark of intelligence is the realization that you are not so much smarter than everyone else, and therefore not smart enough to make the system that has failed everywhere else it has been attempted, work.

Socialism fails every time it's tried. Why does Obama think he can make it work now?

I was watching Bill">http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/">Bill Moyers Journal this weekend. Marcia Angell (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcia_Angell) was saying that the single payer option was the only way. Maybe do something along the lines of lowering the age that Medicare applies and let the insurance companies move onto something not involving health care.

But if you look at all the countries that have socialized medicine to that extent -- they don't have the doctor's and staff because it doesn't pay.

But my reading of the link you posted is that, except in some conditions (which aren't listed in the article) you won't be able to purchase new basic coverage that competes with the government option. (franko)

"Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law [...] What wasn't known until now is that the bill itself will kill the market for private individual coverage by not letting any new policies be written after the public option becomes law.

"I also don't believe anyone on this board is genuinely outraged over the rich getting better coverage than the poor. Nor do I think anyone here is so naive to think that isn't currently the case."

It can be the case, sure. But DH and I are not well to do, and we get premium care. I can go to any dr I want, any hospital I want. Why? because we (and GE) pay for that plan. I'd prefer to keep my ability to pay for that plan, thanks. I drive cheap-ass cars and have no cell phone so I can pay for that plan. Others are free to do the same. If they choose not to, why in the hell should I subsidize them while lowering my own personal care?

>>Ted Would Likely Be Dead By Now
Ted Kennedy, that is...dead as Mary Jo Kopechne. Under the health care "reform" he's sponsoring, Investor's Business Daily says it's unlikely he would've gotten the treatment he needed for his brain tumor had his case been reviewed by some cost-effectiveness board
Nah. He'd still be rich as Croesus. I don't think anyone is going to outlaw rich people paying out-of-pocket for superior healthcare.