In France and some other countries, pool regulations demand that both male & female swimmers wear swim caps and tight-fitting suits.

Officials insisted Wednesday they banned the woman's use of the Islam-friendly suit at a local pool because of France's pool hygiene standards - not out of hostility to overtly Muslim garb. Under the policy, swimmers are not allowed in pools with baggy clothing, including surfer-style shorts. Only figure-hugging suits are permitted.

Because thats just what the U.S. needs, someone opposed to the culture in which they live.

I always find it odd, creepy and unnerving whenever I am walking down the street and a woman walks by wearing the full head-to-toe gown with only narrow slits for the eyes. It is kind of like passing a ghost or a zombie or something.

There have even been cases in Australia where Muslim women have been permitted to have a photo of themselves wearing the full face covering on their drivers license. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

There have even been cases in Australia where Muslim women have been permitted to have a photo of themselves wearing the full face covering on their drivers license. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Posted by: Nick S at August 16, 2009 5:04 AM
-------------------------------------
This was also a hot issue in Florida several years ago.

It seems that Europe decided to become pacifists a few decades ago. Perhaps they were worn down from World War I & II. They are now paying for it. I think many thought their new pacifist ways to be progressive thinking.
You can't appease every ones whims and still have successful society. Britain even has Sharia law for some of it's muslim population.

I hope the U.S. is watching and learning.
I don't think they are.

I don't think it will go to Sharia law without a war. There's a lot of backlash to the over-tolerence. I think they are setting the stage for a massive racial conflict.

I don't think it will go to Sharia law without a war. There's a lot of backlash to the over-tolerence. I think they are setting the stage for a massive racial conflict.

We can only hope, NicoleK. But if the silly bint in France is threatening to leave over what she can or can't wear in a public pool, let her the fuck go. Who cares? None of us should.

And yeah, the only thing not tolerated anymore is intolerance, even when it makes sense.

I could even see another Holocaust happening, but with Muslims instead of Jews. Europeans tend to have extreme reactions... doormat or psycho. Very little in-between.

Maybe it won't be that extreme, but I could definitely see a war happening. Being Swiss, I go to Europe a lot, and everyone I know dislikes immigration intensely and is quite racist. They are pretty mainstream people, too. Not random psychos. I don't see europe going over without a fight. give it a few more riots like in 2005... remember, they then elected the more conservative candidate. A few more big riots and you'll see the pendulum shift.

Nicole, I think you're only telling one side of the story. You claim that "everyone you know" in Switzerland is a racist.

Let's assume that's true. Why do you think they might be "racist"? Might they have a bunch of newcomers in their midst who:
1. Refuse to assimilate into the host culture?
2. Insist upon building a ghetto within the greater community?
3. Are now insisting upon changes that directly affect the host culture?
4. Are being backed every step of the way by a bunch of extreme-left politicians who believe more in political correctness than common sense?

You choose to label anyone who "dares" object to such people as "racists". I think such a reaction is more akin to "common sense"!

I highly recommend everyone read Mark Steyn's "America Alone" because it succinctly outlines the likely outcomes for what will occur in Europe in the years ahead.

Robert W., I don't think NicoleK is disagreeing with you. She's pointing out that the "racists" in Switzerland aren't a bunch of random psychos, but mainstream people. Probably for the very reasons you list.

The immigrants I see around me in my corner of the world tend to be from India more than anywhere else - mostly they work in the I.T. industry. They learn English, get jobs, and work hard, at least all the ones I've met. There's no reason to be racist against people just because they have brown skin, and I doubt most people think that, either. (If anything, I wish we had more Indian restaurants here.)

I'm not sure it's even appropriate to call what the Swiss are feeling "racism." They don't dislike these people because they are of a different race, but because they make such shitty neighbors. You wouldn't care where your neighbor was from, in fact you'd probably just be curious about their clothes and music, if they tried to get along with everyone else.

>>I'm not sure it's even appropriate to call what the Swiss are feeling "racism."

Pirate Jo,
If you prefer, you could call it an extremely jingoistic, protectionist and provincial mindset then. The Swiss are well known for it.

I'm with Amy totally about female swimming costumes. BUT the French public pool rules about male costumes are strange and annoying. My parents live in France (near the Swiss border) and my American-raised sons refuse to use the local public pool because they wouldn't be seen dead in the bikini briefs mandated for men by custom. It's a hygiene-based rule gone nuts; men have to wear proper, brief trunks with a mesh gusset. There is actually a vile crone who patrols the local pool in my parents' village and who turfs out lads wearing baggie shorts.

> I think they are setting the stage
> for a massive racial conflict.

It ain't racial.

> I'm not sure it's even appropriate to
> call what the Swiss are
> feeling "racism.".

It it walks like a duck and uses campaign graphics like a duck...

"There is actually a vile crone who patrols the local pool in my parents' village and who turfs out lads wearing baggie shorts."

My condo association boasts an 84-year-old man who, in the absence of any engaging hobbies of his own, patrols the premises looking for parking infractions and dog leash violations. He's a damn pain in the ass. Yet ... an asset to the community too, in his own way.

At the local water parks around here, though, boys can wear the same kinds of shorts they would wear skateboarding. What do you mean by bikini briefs? Are we talking speedos? Granted, maybe men in France aren't as fat as they are in America ... but still. A lot of the grown men around here spend a LOT more time watching sports on TV than they do participating in them, if you know what I mean. People might actually pay them to cover up a bit.

I'm curious, too, Jody - honestly, I just don't know much about Switzerland. But when you say a "provincial" mindset, that has to mean more than just anti-Islamic-immigrants. Does it mean PRO-anything? In place of the Muslim practices, which I agree are largely nuts, what exactly are the Swiss saying is their "local" way of doing things, that they want others to assimilate to and practice?

Robert, I think you're having a knee-jerk reaction to the word "racist". I'm not saying they are wrong to feel invaded, at all. Maybe "culturalist" is a better word, but it isn't strange at all to hear someone talking about "those damn -insert racial group here-" Or if you prefer, >

What I am saying is they do things by extremes, either they are all, "Let's let everyone in and not check their passports at the border! That couldn't possibly go wrong!" or they are very hardline.

This seems to me the problem across Europe, everyone felt so guilty about the Holocaust that they went nuts bending over backwards to prove how egalitarian and non-racist they were. This is a disaster, you can't sustain a country that way. What I'm observing is backlash to the backlash to the Holocaust, people are getting angry again.

Pirate Jo, the main issue in Switzerland right now is the minarets. Some Muslims want to built mosques with minarets, and many Swiss people oppose this. There is another issue, where they want to pass a law sending immigrants who commit crimes back to their native lands. It was scandalous because the poster in favor of the law showed a bunch of white sheep kicking out a black sheep, so they ended up putting off a lot of the center folks. I'm not sure whether the law passed or not.

That's the thing, though. A country that tries to define itself gets accused of being provincial, narrow-minded, etc. It's the sort of peer-pressure the Europeans put on each other to accept everyone and their brother into Europe. I don't think its a good idea.

Let's make some distinctions. We want a free society where people can wear what they want. If people can wear Che Guevara T-shirts, then people can wear burquinis. The current actions by France are discrimination. I may suspect the wearer, and I may feel sorry for her subjugation, but that doesn't have anything to do with restricting her public activities because of a clothing style.

There may be exceptions for traditional concerns. Nudity seems to offend most people. (But, the rules for bikinis leave little to the imagination. I'm not complaining.)

Clearly, where identification is important, then the face must be revealed. If security is necessary, then clothing should not hide bombs or weapons. Pictures of the burqini, that I have seen, show little room to hide anything. They seem to be like wetsuits.

We must prevent the imposition of any private law (ie. Sharia), but we must preserve our freedoms, among which is to wear almost anything.

>>At the local water parks around here, though, boys can wear the same kinds of shorts they would wear skateboarding. What do you mean by bikini briefs? Are we talking speedos? Granted, maybe men in France aren't as fat as they are in America ... but still.

Pirate Jo,
Yes, we are talking obligatory Speedo-style for many public pools in France.
Even if your shorts are sold for swimming-only (i.e. with mesh, proper fabric etc), if they aren't tight around the bum - and cut high - you are told to leave the pool. (I've a high tolerance for angry old folk who are an asset to the community - as you put it. The ancient French lady at the public pool I'm talking about - not even god could like her!).

I've a bit of a horror of tight trunks on men anyway. Even if you're an Adonis in your prime, I reckon US surfer style looks infinitely cooler.
(Continental Europeans have a blind spot about teeny-weeny bikini swimsuits for men, barely more than posing pouches...I loathe the look.)

NicoleK,
Have you just moved to Switzerland? Or am I nuts and confusing you with another poster here!?

Andrew,

So if not allowing Burquini's in France is discrimination (cough cough), then what is forcing non-muslims in the UK to wear burquinis? Sharia?

>>Being Swiss, I go to Europe a lot, and everyone I know dislikes immigration intensely and is quite racist.

NicoleK,
I missed that part of your comment first time around - sorry!

Does anyone know how real the cited hygiene risk is?

I love the French. I love how they unapologetically demand from their immigrants assimilation into their society - a perfectly reasonable concept long since killed here in the States by the touchy-feelies.

That said, if the hygiene risk is truly pretextual, the ban would probably constitute a 1st Amendment violation over here.

My thinking tends to resemble yours, Andrew, although maybe that's easy for me, since I have yet to see a burqa walking down any Des Moines city street. Building mosques with minarets? If these people want to buy some private property and build something with a minaret on top of it, so what? Yet if someone is in your country, and they haven't yet gained citizenship but commit crimes, sending them back to their own country seems fair. I don't know what all is involved in gaining Swiss citizenship. Is it easy?

There is a line somewhere between that of "a sensible, productive culture that adheres to the values that made it that way" and that of "a narrow-minded, xenophobic, provincial culture that resists change no matter what." I think every community struggles with that, as the generations pass. Remember, humans have only walked this planet for 90k years or so, and only within the last 20 years has so much information about distant people been available to so many. Change happens faster and faster, and it's no good to be a Luddite, yet you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, either.

"a perfectly reasonable concept long since killed here in the States by the touchy-feelies"

You haven't spent any time in redneck country.

"Continental Europeans have a blind spot about teeny-weeny bikini swimsuits for men, barely more than posing pouches...I loathe the look."

Ewwww, Borat ... shit, maybe us white folks would take kindlier to the Muslim types if it's the men who had to wear the burqas instead of the women. Dudes, nobody wants to see your junk, especially if you're hairy.

Hee hee hee ... we must have prompted the ad for "modest clothing" which now appears at the top of the page! I love it!

If you live in a "tolerant" and "inclusive" society, must you therefore tolerate intolerance and lack of assimilation?

It seems that you do ... and we are.

BTW, some aspects of Sharia are already being utilized in Britain -- with official blessing.

I'd suggest she move to Afganistan were we overthrew that horrible regime and intalled this buch

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8204207.stm?lsf

"Building mosques with minarets? If these people want to buy some private property and build something with a minaret on top of it, so what?"

Well the what is that most European countries especially the Germanic ones have very strict zoning laws that keep people from building anything that is out of cultural character for the town that they live in. In the town that I lived in in Germany they dictated not only the height of the buildings, the buildings had to be white and there were two choices for roof color and all the roofs had to be tile. I think the pitch of the roof was a matter of regulation also. The Swiss won't make an exception for Mosques, nor should they. They don't want Switzerland to look like Morocco just like we here in the Rocky Mountains don't want our housing developments to look like a border town in Mexico. Isabel

I am moving to Switzerland next summer. My husband got a job there, and we are going when it starts. We're both Swiss citizens. He grew up there and came here for school. I was born and grew up here and visited the extended family twice a year for all my life. That's my Swiss background.

I hate the pools there because I have to wear a bathing cap. I have long hair and it ITCHES when I have to wear a cap.

The minarets thing gets more complicated because the proposed mosques are being funded by Saudi Arabia, and many Swiss percieve it as foreign involvement in local affairs.

Things like what you can build and wear are much less free in Europe. But then, they can drink and do drugs... I remember when my cousin came to visit, he was 18, and he was grumbling "I can't even go have a beer! THIS is the land of freedom???"

> Robert, I think you're having a
> knee-jerk reaction to the word
> "racist".

Ever'buddy get that?

> I think you're having a
> knee-jerk reaction to the word
> "racist".

IJS... This is some of the most inflammatory language the human tongue has ever crafted. (See also, "homophobe", etc.) When we see these words deployed clumsily, are we supposed to answer with the full thermonuclear payload, or are we supposed to assume the person using them doesn't talk to grownups about interesting things very often?

On the minarets, I didn't see where this had been previously brought up, and I think it may be worth mentioning:

1 - Minarets are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish *a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in most western societies and certainly contrary to our constitution here*.

2 - Minarets were originally built as towers so the muezzin (the man who calls people to Islamic prayer) could climb up high and his call for prayer would be heard by the town. Thesedays, muezzins are gone, but replaced in every mosque on the planet... BY REALLY FUCKING ANNOYING LOUD SPEAKERS that blare the pre-recorded call to prayer electronically. Five times a day, *including the middle of the night and before dawn*.

Not allowing minarets to be built means no obnoxious loudspeakers constantly intruding into other people's lives, 90% of them either Christian or non-relgious in that country.

To Feebie,

A government should not impose any restrictions, except for the most important reasons, and then only to the extent needed.

The British problem, and our problem also, is that governments are in the business of supplying swimming pools. So, they have to accomodate everyone's taste, according to political clout. Goods that the government supplies are always politically directed. The British government is caught in the controversy of just how to supply swimming services. Which groups get what, under what rules and restrictions?

The way out is to get government out of the swimming pool business and all other businesses. Then, people can decide what they want to pay, and Muslims can build their own pools, or rent time for their own swimming under whatever restrictions they want.

If it is a priority to give swimming opportunities to the poor, then hand out vouchers. At least we would know how much the "free pools" are costing everyone.

Feebie see if they are violating city sound ordinaces.

There arent many mosques in phx, but if I were being annoyed I'd cut into the sound system and play some porn over their system

Andrew, can you define "important reason" for me? Or how about "only to the extent needed?"

Seems a little vague. Just want to be sure we are understanding one and other...

As far as the pools - banning the burquas like the minarets, is not discrimination because of the nature of what is being symbolized and the nature of what is being USED to erode our western culture.

Again, it is *a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in most western societies*.

Islam is not just a religion. It is also a political ideology (and judicial enforcement outfit with these sub-human honor killings that are being protected).

If they want to roll around in large black tents - FINE. But their new country's culture does not have to accept it, they don't have to modify their legal and cultural standards for it either.

This is completely different from discrimination.

lujee-bug, what *is* it with you and this porn fixation?

First what porn fixation

Second, what sound could be more offensive to muslims then women enjoying sex

Feebie,

Did you take "Passive/Aggressive Rhetoric" in school? You nitpick the general meaning of my post and claim you don't understand. Maybe you don't.

I don't support your desire to punish or ban behavior that is a personal choice and without safety concerns. I don't support your desire to control people because of the symbolism that you see in their choices.

By all means, prosecute and jail those who commit honor killings, plan bombings, or gather in crowds to intimidate. Also, we should not create or support a private Sharia law for use by cultural groups.

You confuse issues when you say:
"Their new country's culture does not have to accept it, [we] don't have to modify [our] legal and cultural standards for [them] either."

You are confusing legal standards (the law) with cultural "standards", whatever those are. We don't have a Department of Standard Culture, and that is good. We should allow the greatest freedom possible while punishing and, to some extent, preventing bad acts. That is enough, as I see it.

Andrew.

There are two books by Orianna Fallaci. The Force of Reason, and The Rage and The Pride. She speaks a lot in those books about the impact of what has been going on in Europe with Moslem immigrants, their lack of assimilation and freedom to practice their religion.

When it comes to Islam, it is not just a religion. It is a political, judicial, societal, cultural AND religious trojan horse.

If all it was, was a peaceful religion, then you might have a point. But it really isn't, so they are getting protections for things normally not afforded to any other religion or group of people.

The very fact these people demand submission, taxes or beheadings of infidels (non-believers like me) leaves me a bit weary of giving them too much freedom to practice their Trojan Horse.

Freedom of religion does not call for us allowing our own suicide.

Switzerland has one of the highest levels of immigrants anywhere. At present, more than 18% of the population consists of non-naturalized immigrants. If you count those who who have obtained Swiss citizenship, the number is much higher.

In order to preserve their culture in the face of such a massive influx, the Swiss demand that immigrants integrate themselves. For most, this is not a problem.

I expect that the "racism" that NicoleK sees is the attitude toward immigrants from the Balkans (former Yugoslavia). They are, as a group, responsible for a disproportionate amount of difficulty. In particular, the "macho" culture they come from supports lousy behavior by their young males: drunken car races, rapes, beatings, etc.

After another generation of assimilation, the problem will go away, but it is currently a fact. If you are out late at night and you encounter a group of young males speaking with Balkan accents, you take a bit of extra care: look around for other people, or maybe walk a different way.

I would argue that recognizing reality is not racism.

Yes, the Eastern Europeans are especially problematic in Switzerland. The racism I see is not just towards the Balkans, though. It's pretty much towards everyone of non-Western European origin. Of course, this is all anecdotal.

I'm not saying that some of the racism isn't justified. Merely that it exists. There is a reason it exists. The reason the racism exists is because of an overly-lenient immigration policy.

Not all of the racism is justifiable, however. People consistantly make very demeaning remarks about members of other ethnic groups in Europe. Mostly at dinners, but sometimes in public, too. A typical remark is along the lines of "Racial group X isn't capable of governing themselves."

Let me clarify my argument:
1) Overly-lax immigration policies cause ethnic tensions which result in racism
2) Many of the behavior called racist can be justified due to personal experience and statistics, but plain ole racism exists as well.
3) Current racist attitudes, justified or no, will prevent an Islamic takeover, because a good chunk of the population is going to reach a breaking point

I don't believe that letting in the entire third world is the way to eliminate racism, on the contrary, I think it is a recipe for huge ethnic tensions, probably eventually coming to a violent conclusion.

This is why I voted "no" on relaxing immigration requirements for children of immigrants. This is why I will always vote "no" when it comes to joining the EU (also because of the banks). I haven't decided how to vote on the minarets issue yet. I'm torn on that one. My feeling is it would be better to limit immigration, but let the immigrants practice their religion as long as they comply with local noise and zoning laws. I would probably leave it to the communes (local town governments).

I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't let in more immigrants than can be easily integrated into the culture. This is where most of Western Europe has gone wrong.

I never quite got the argument that forcing people to be with other ethnicities and races would make them less racist. It seems to have the opposite effect, because people feel threatened.

Nicole, I agree - we are on the same wavelength. What part of Switzerland will you be moving to?

Any group of people will clump up into cliques, members of which will say "my group is better than your group, nya, nya". Racial or cultural lines are just obvious ways for cliques to define themselves.

Somehow it seems to be a part of human nature...

What part of Switzerland will you be moving to?

Lausanne. I'm psyched because we will be near my relatives in Geneva and Neuchatel.