I find the last sentence you quoted to be pretty interesting in and of itself.

Regardless of whether anyone should have been charged for this, why weren't both parents charged for this? Which parent was charged for this?

I definately agree with you kids are overprotected these days, but you don't use very good examples. Leaving a 9 year old and a 6 year old alone? In a car? For over half an hour? I'd charge them too. First off, where do they live that it's ok to leave kids in a car in the summer? Kids have died here in TX in much less time in a car, with the windows down. Even in winter, with the windows up. And that's totally aside from any child predation possibilities, which I'll leave out since they aren't common.

Kids that will run into the street after a ball can't play alone by a street. A car takes one second to kill you. And drivers are more distracted than they used to be, with cell phones and all. I'd trust my 5 years out front-and do-because they KNOW it is never ok to go in the road. They're too young to be going places alone that necesitate a road crossing.

On a related topic, we live just down the street from the elementary school, and I was going to let them walk alone after a week or two. The school won't let them go in the PM until someone (parent, older sib, etc) is there to walk with them in kinder. Oh well.

First off, where do they live that it's ok to leave kids in a car in the summer?

From the quote: Central New York.

It does sound like leaving the windows open was a mistake. If they'd been closed, and tinted, the problem might have been avoided. Maybe their next car will be the kind that has solar powered air conditioning.

The best solutions are social: correct passersby who make mountains out of molehills, discipline police officers who show insufficient judgment and fire prosecutors who file frivolous charges. Not that I think any of those things are likely to happen.

This is silly. My mother used to let me stay in the car reading while she went into the store to shop.

...a woman in Central New York writes: ... My daughter had asked me if she could stay in the car and read, and I had exchanged a glance with my partner - the children's dad - and [I]then said yes....

But in the end:

"Which parent was charged for this?" - Jerry

My partner [the man] was charged with endangering the welfare of a minor.

Oh yeah, that's fair.

==========

And what's with this "my partner" rather than "my boyfriend" or even "my husband?"

You'd think they started a law firm together rather than bore (and are raising) two children together?

I'm guessing she wasn't the biological mother....

She called her "my daughter" and "our daugher" and "our son." Even if she's an adoptive mother, she is responsible for the children's safety and, thus, just as responsible as he is for any "endangerment" that went on.

My mom left my brother and me in the car while she went grocery shopping ALL THE TIME. We didn't enjoy being dragged through the store and preferred to sit in the car and read. A six-year-old and a nine-year-old aren't going to die from heat, because they're big enough to get out of the car if it gets too hot.

Amy, you may be right, that might fit what was reported. I think Conan has a point, especially with regard to child endangerment: how can two adults leave the kids, endangering their welfare, but only one adult is responsible?

I have various problems with the parents behavior here.

Often my concern over leaving my kids in the car at a certain age was that they would get out of the car. Smart kids, but not necessarily experienced enough to figure out they are 3 feet tall and hidden by cars. It's one thing to leave the kids home alone, but leaving them in a car is not the same environment.

I also think a half hour unsupervised in that car is problematical.

As well as basically making the 9 year old responsible for the 6 year old.

And assuming a cellphone makes it okay.

And then the safety valve is to teach the girl to scream "This stranger's hurting me!" if a "skeevy" person got too friendly? That's just fucked up. The kid is the judge of too friendly? Or is the kid supposed to judge "skeevy"? And then what the hell does "This stranger's hurting me" do but make life very difficult for the well meaning people who glance in the car and talk to the kids to make sure all is okay, and absolutely nothing to protect kids from any real creeps that come along.

Yes, let's teach our girls it's okay to scream rape as a way to get what they need out of society.

whatever happened to not fucking the kids up being the first responsibility of those who procreate?

since there were 2 grownups, why couldn't 1 stay with the sleeping and reading kiddos?

Sorry, this is a terrible example. If you can't leave dogs in a car then you can't leave kids in a car either. It doesn't matter if they can get out of it... hot is hot inside or out...

If they were old enough to stay by themselves why didn't they leave them in the safety of their own home? That is a little questionable, but at least it doesn't put your bad judgement on public display...

The first sentence from the mother in question is surprisingly thoughtful - it's not nearly as automatically defensive or shrill as you might expect:

"I'm not sure if we did something wrong here or not, and I feel myself being pulled every which way..."

My husband used to go trick or treating by himself and I was certainly allowed to play outside sans adult supervision--at least until the street lights came on.

The problem with letting your kids have the same basic freedoms you had as a child is that in the name of child safety, anyone who thinks your child is in the slightest danger can, and will, call the police right then and there. Nobody wants to be accused of not doing anything so a report is filed and the parents get called on the carpet.

Then of course comes the issue that if something should, heaven forbid, actually happen, the parents are crucified by the media and the community for "not having known better".

Take the case of the woman who allowed her son to ride the subway unsupervised and the all flak she took.

Personally I think it's ridiculous, but I still think it's worth the hassle to drag the kids along (or leave them at a willing grandparent's or friends home) than deal with the "well meaning" public.

My wife used to go trick and treating by herself too, it's what broke up the marriage.

/sorry

I agree with momof4, the issue here isn't someone attempting to snatch their kids, but of heat stroke. A car can heat up very quickly and once disorientation sets in, it is hard for the most learned adult to figure out what the problem is, let alone a 9 year old who would feel responsible for the sleeping 6 year old. I could see myself at 9 getting overheated but refusing to leave the car because mom and dad said to stay put and not wanting to wake the 6 year old.

In addition, we aren't talking about 30 minutes, it was 30 minutes when they were paged to come get the kids by the police. Had they not been paged, it would have been much longer. (Which is why I don't use Walmart to get my medications refilled.)

As far as charging them with a crime when no one was hurt, I think that is a bit excessive. If I were the judge, I would require them to do a full research paper/presentation on the effects of heat on a child as well as how long a car takes to warm up in the temperature outside that day, and present it to a parenting class. Neither seems intentionally abusive, just misinformed.

As far as someone calling CPS because the children were playing a block away and went after a ball...that is just stupid. If I saw a couple of young kids run out into the street, I would ask them to go get their mom/dad and have a conversation:

"Hi, I'm Julie and I live in the blue house on the left. I saw little Sally run out in to the street and I thought you might want to know. If the kids ever run into trouble, they can stop by and I will help. Have a nice day."

That way the parent knows (what parent wouldn't want that information) and the kids have someone else to assist them in case of a problem closer to my house than the parents. I might get away with it because I don't look at all menacing (A little blond woman doesn't exactly put the fear of God into people) but I can't think knowing my neighbors hurts at all.

-Julie

Granted, this was not the best decision by the "partners," but let's not blow it out of proportion.

...the effects of heat on a child as well as how long a car takes to warm up in the temperature outside that day....

They left the windows open. The car's not going to get significantly hotter than the outside air.

It would be akin to the child sitting on the patio reading.

...we aren't talking about 30 minutes, it was 30 minutes when they were paged....

When my mother left me in the car while shopping, it could be an hour before she returned. And we lived in North Florida, where the heat and humidity could get pretty brutal in the summer.

----------

In cases like this, the police need the equivalent of the traffic warning citation. That is, something to indicate for the record that the parents have been warned, but not at the level of a felony citation.

Heatstroke in Central NY? You would have to pick the one decent week we've had all year.

Those kids were in more danger of a meteor strike. It is illustrative in one respect. This area, bar none, has more people ready to run other people's lives than any I have ever been in. The CPS folks, or whatever they call the kiddie Gestapo, are the worst. When they have no real issues to deal with, they'll overreact to something. I believe we'd all be better off without the professional busybodies. Let the cops and courts deal with the real problems.

In Japan, even the kindergarten kids walk to school, or take the train, unescorted by adults.

It used to be that kids who needed help in situations like this got it from neighbors, or even passers-by. Now, it is expected that the "authorities" will deal with it -- with all the finesse and light-handedness for which they are known.

The big picture? The State is becoming ever-more involved in the ordinary, day-to-day aspects of our lives.

Eventually, what can't be justified if supposedly in the best interest of "national security," "law and order," "women," or "the CHILDREN!"

I don't think that the parents used the best judgement, but I don't think they should've been charged with anything, either.

If I'd already had CPS called on me once, I'd be a little more aware of how my parenting choices looked to others.

Here is more information about hyperthermia:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/275419/child_care_warning_hot_cars_hyperthermia_pg2.html

The car itself serves to hold in heat, even if the windows are rolled down. Kids have died with cracked windows and it being 60 degrees outside.

I agree with Conan though, there should be a warning citation for situations where no harm has occurred.

-Julie

Heat stroke isn't an issue there. I lived for a time in Albany; summers are usually nice. Few houses have AC. It's not really needed but a few days a year.

I used to do exactly this kind of thing. Loved reading so much I didn't want to stop to go in some boring store. Meddling douches.

Regarding "partner", it's a very common term among progressive types to signify "very serious relationship", possibly including marriage, short version of "life partner". Started I'd guess with gay and lesbian communities. Now used pretty widely by hetero couples.

There are very few situations where I would call the police on another parent, like if the child was being beaten, or if a toddler was wandering down the street alone. In other words, immediate physical danger. To call the police for anything less would make me an asshole who just likes to see people get in trouble so I pat myself on the back and feel like a hero.

A few years ago, I was working at an office connected to a small factory. I went out to the parking lot for a break, and I saw a van with two small children, the oldest one about 5 years old. I checked inside, and the mother was filling out a job application. Now, this was clearly was I considered dangerous and irresponsible parenting (I would have felt differently if the oldest was 9). But I did NOT call the police. Instead, I went back out to the parking lot and kept an eye on the kids until the mom came out, which was about 15 minutes. I also did not confront her. I assumed she must have been desparate for a job and had no babysitter, and I saw no reason to ruin her life over it.

Julie - I don't have the time now to verify that article, but do know Associated Content is like squidoo and hub pages - user generated and not necessarily fact checked.

KarenW, I like you. Good for you, for keeping an eye on those kids without feeling like you had to blow your own horn about it. The world could use more people who simply help out and do the right thing, without all the sanctimony.

@Whatever

How about this resource, including references from GM about how how a car can get in 30 minutes:

http://ggweather.com/heat/

Heat, even when it isn't very hot outside, is a much greater risk to little kids than a kidnapper. At 30 minutes the temp in a car (according to this study) raises on average 34 degrees. So, if it is a mild 70 degrees outside, inside the car it will be over 100.

-Julie

Thank you, Pirate Jo.

"It used to be that kids who needed help in situations like this got it from neighbors, or even passers-by. Now, it is expected that the "authorities" will deal with it -- with all the finesse and light-handedness for which they are known."

Hey, this woman is telling her kids to scream, "This stranger's hurting me!", it might be wise to just walk on by that car.

Regarding "partner", it's a very common term among progressive types to signify "very serious relationship"....

I know. I'm just bustin' chops.

It's like how "husband" or "wife" signifies a serious relationship to the unenlightened cave people.

"Partner" is still a pretty insipid term to use in referring to a serious emotional relationship.

I accept gays using it because society hasn't really given them a suitable alternative term. But we really need to get to work on that one.

Every cop or entrepreneurial businessperson I meet these days seems momentarily gay to me when they introduce me to their partner. I have to translate whether that's a life partner, a business partner, a patrol partner, or just a really good friend from a long time back.

While most parents are far too overprotective, I would question leaving a 9 and 6 year-old alone in such circumstances. As a large male, not too many people, places, or things make me nervous. Large commercial parking lots cause me to raise my level of situational awareness dramatically.

In my town there have been a rash of purse snatchings and other "minor" (no one physically injured) crimes in our Wal-Mart supercenter parking lot and the local mall's parking lot. None of these incidents have made the local news or paper. I'm aware of these problems only because I have a number of friends on the force. They believe these incidents are being intentionally buried to avoid scaring business away from the stores.

A while back a friend's wife was roughed up, pushed into the back of her SUV, and robbed in a large mall parking lot in Chattanooga. It was Christmas time at 2:30 in the afternoon and the lot was teeming with shoppers. Fortunately, the thief was only interested in her packages -- never made the news. The officers told my friend this was far more common in Chattanooga than people realized because there was an effort to minimize public knowledge of such crimes to protect the mall.

Allegations of burying mall crimes were made in this FL case:
http://tinyurl.com/lld7yc

As always, YMMV.

This is an important life lesson for the kids. Not only do we need to be wary of "skeevy" adults, but also those who think they're helping us by calling the police.

Perhaps in the future we will have automobiles that are armored fortresses capable of repelling do-gooders as well as would-be kidnappers. Until that day it's safer to stay at home and use amazon.com through Amy's Mall.

From Conan:

And what's with this "my partner" rather than "my boyfriend" or even "my husband?"

Typical paleo-con reactionary bullshit. Stop imposing your morality on everyone.

I have an admitted bias here about people calling parents.

I don't think they do it enough *for the right reasons*. In this case, the child was clearly old enough to be able to get out of the car if it got too hot (which would be one of my main concerns). The other of course, would be if they got out or opened the door (or windows were rolled down) for some air - someone could come and steal the car with them in it (or them).

Sorry, I don't even leave my dog in the car unless it is well shaded and it is for under 5 minutes.

As much as I dislike speaking in specifics about my mother, I think it is necessary here.

My mother use to leave me in the car with my sisters at a very young age..and it got HOT. And we could roll down the windows, but we were instructed NOT to open the car doors and not to get out. One of my younger sisters was still strapped into a car seat at this time. So which is it - bake to death OR receive unpleasant consequences when mom got back for getting OUT of the car.

I read what Karen said. Karen, I think it was so wonderful for you to watch out for those kids. But a different perspective again - if that woman leaves her children in dangerous situations in public places for everyone to see...what then are you NOT seeing when no one is looking?

Seriously, think about this... There were plenty of times that the cops should have been called out on my mother. Plenty. But everyone would just look at what was happening and go back about their business as if it it didn't really happen. I wanted them to help me!

My life may have been different than most here, and I don't think one rule fits all (call the cops on the slightest infractions)...but with kids, they can't protect themselves and they deserve to get the help need - if parents are irresponsible or abusive.

The person who called the cops that day, may have had a similar experience as mine. I don't think I would have called for this (but who knows what the real story is, we are getting one side of it) - but I can think of ones where I would.

I've only called the cops once - at an old apartment complex I was living in. Two kids left with their alcoholic mother's alcoholic boyfriend. He was screaming the most horrific things at these children and abusing them. I could hear this through my wall.

I asked another tenant, and they said "Ya, it's sad, that goes on a lot". (WTF?) No one did anything - they didn't want to be responsible for anything! I wanted to break down the door I was so pissed. But I didn't, I called the cops. They came, arrested him, and the children wound up going to live with their grandparents up in Oregon. That wasn't easy for me to see, AT ALL. But where they were living would have caused them far more harm then being separated from their mother.

Who here saying this is ok has kids? Anyone? The fact that you survived it when you were a kid doesn't mean much. The mere fact that you're here means you survived everything that happened to you. Doesn't mean everyone does.

Here in Austin a 3 year old died not long ago being left in a daycare van for not very long at all. In the shade.

Typical paleo-con reactionary bullshit.

Nope. Just irritation at the silliness of having to invent politically correct ways of referring to things for which we already have perfectly good ways of referring.

And maybe a wee bit o' nostalgia for a time when we weren't required to be so open-minded that our brains fall out.

Maybe it's just my state (FL), but I don't think it's legal to leave your child home alone until age 11 or 12.

Now, sitting outside in a car is different, but the same law may still apply. In my opinion, if the car is visible from the store and the parents are just going to run in for a few minutes, it's ok, but shopping for half an hour is irresponsible. She doesn't say whether the car was visible, so I assume it wasn't.

There was the awful case of the mom who ran in for literally a second and someone carjacked her car and the little boy was dragged to death after she unsuccessfully tried to free him from the carseat.

And take the case of this 11 year old, Jaycee Duggart, snatched while walking to a busstop in plain view of her stepdad. Or Madelyn McCann, whose parents left her sleeping in a hotel room only yards away while they dined...checking in every half-hour.

Bad things happen to kids in the blink of an eye. The police are more aware of this these days, as are parents. In the past, for one thing, people had a lot more kids. Between diseases and accidents, losing one or two in childhood was kind of expected, but now, the limited number of offspring makes them more precious, and this, combined with our increased awareness of how quickly bad things can happen, have made society more diligent about protecting them.

"And this wasn't the first time they've been reported, either. Somebody called Child Protective Services on them when their kids were playing a block from their house, sans adult supervision, and had apparently chased a ball into the street. "

TWO times. Sorry, there is something else going on here we are not seeing. If CPC has been called TWO times on these people, something is missing. If it was two blocks from their home, that means the neighbors called.

It sounds like this woman and her partner are irresponsible people at best.

One time, ok, maybe - but two times, what are the chances this happened two times to these people without any responsibility attributed to their behaviors.

Remember, we are taking THIS lady's word for it. I would be pretty embarassed admitting CPC was called twice on me if I were in this situation. I would be EMBARRASSED to admit this publically if it were me.

Something is not right.

LS - the answer isn't to barricade ourselves indoors. Didn't work in Cheshire (home invasion, mother and daughters raped/murdered).

The answer is to make the punishment for kidnapping and carjacking DEATH. Period.

You kidnap anyone, and you die. You carjack someone? You die.

Carjackings went down drastically when carjack victims started shooting back. The death penalty, swiftly applied, is an effective deterrent.

So that fixes the parenting problem and parental responsibility HOW, Brain?

The shame of this story is that there are children who are being neglected and abused and CPS is wasting their time on this case that will likely conclude with no charges or penalty.
My children have a tendency to bring home the stray kids in the neighborhood, the kids with alcoholic and drug addicted parents. One kid came to live with me after I visited his home and saw that the father let the house turn into what resembled a crack den. He was a heroin addict and told me to take his son. I did. On the way out, we ran into a Social Services case worker. I soon found out that the kid had been living like this for at least a year. CPS had been involved most of that year yet did nothing. The kid lived with me for months until eventually we discovered that his very wealthy grandmother lived nearby and was ignoring the problem. I didn't want to give him up, but I had no choice.
My other son had a friend who came over often. Something seemed off and he asked me to come in one day when I took him home. His mother was sitting on her couch where she had not moved from in weeks. She had used her spot on the couch as her bathroom as well. The dog in the kitchen used the kitchen as a bathroom. The smell was beyond gross. This poor kid was practically begging for help. And yes, the mother had a case worker for her alcohol problem, yet there she sat on her couch in her feces and her child pretty much raised himself.
I told her I was not leaving this kid there and that he would stay with me until she cleaned up herself and her house. She called the police and told them that I kidnapped her son. Thankfully the officer that came to my house said that they had many calls but due to the kid being 16, CPS never stepped in. He lived with me until another friend of mine who was in a better financial position that I am took him in. He is staying there through his college graduation.
We forced CPS to get involved only to stop this mother's constant calls to the police which always resulted in the same officer showing up on my doorstep. He asked the kid each time if he was ok, if he was being held against his will, and then told me he would not force the kid to return to his mother.
These are the cases where CPS should be involved and there are many more of them. The sad part of this is that I live in a pretty affluent neighborhood. If it goes on here, I can't imagine some of the inner city neighborhoods. Why does it seem that all of the petty things get the attention of the authorities. If they'd like I can direct them to some real cases worthy of their attention.

Feebie -

Read Kristen's comment. Then tell me that the system we have does anything to approximate dealing with parenting problems.

CPS would rather go after the "low hanging fruit" and get cash.

The entire government runs on the Lepetomane Principle: "Gentlemen, we have to protect our phony baloney jobs!"

I suggest to you that this is significantly worse than the alternative.

Kristen:

Bless your heart.

Brian:

You didn't answer *my* question?

Also, I said if she has had CPS called on her TWO times, something is up. I never, anywhere said that it was the preferred alternative. The preferred alternative is to have the children sent to live other relatives (or nice neighbors) until their parents get their shit together.

If the same thing keeps happening, the lady should think about checking what she is doing on her end instead of going on and on about her "poor me" story. I don't have enough information to say either way. But the odds are...

OK, my comment before the last comment I meant to say Brian, not Brain.

Sorry bout dat, partner!

Momof4, I have kids, 9 and 6 just like the parent in this case. Let's leave the heat out of this - I'm sure in Texas it's an issue (here in Wisconsin, we've barely been over 75 all summer). I won't leave my kids in the car for more than 5 minutes, but for one reason only - because I'm afraid of being arrested. And I won't let them wait in the car at Walmart for even 30 seconds for the same reason, because I've heard too many horror stories about Walmart's overzealous security. When my kids ask why they can't wait in the car, I tell them "because I don't want to get arrested," not "because I think something bad will happen to you." And that's a shame, because I really don't think anything bad will happen to them, but I have to be afraid of all the "do-gooders" out there to make a good decision as a parent.

Pinky: Gee, Brain, what are we going to do tonight?
Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world!

I agree with Feebie. Something is a little wrong with this story. I mean, yes, you CAN leave your 9 yr old alone, responsible for a 6 yr old for half an hour, but given all the possible alternatives, most responsible parents will ask, "Why should I do that?" There's too much at risk. And I believe it is part of parent's job to minimize risk as much as possible.

Yes, it's unlikely that my child will be killed in a car accident. I still buckle them up. Yes, it's unlikely my child will be killed in a bike accident. I still have them wear a helmet. And, yes, it's unlikely that my 9 yr old will have to deal with a pedophile, but I'm not just going to teach her to cry, "This man is hurting me!" I'm not going to leave her in a position where that would be a threat at all.

I did not leave my kids alone at home until my eldest, my son, was 12, the legal babysitting age. He was very mature, so we could leave him for short periods in charge of his 7 yr old sister - always with us nearby with our cellphones.

He has not suffered any lack of independence. He's in college, flies airplanes, and travels wherever he wants. It doesn't hurt a child to let them mature gradually and more safely. And maybe it keeps them alive to enjoy the rest of their life.

All of us who survived are here to talk about this, but we have no idea how many kids our age were abducted, drowned, or died in accidents. Our parents, often by necessity, took chances with us that parents of today deem unecessary, and I think that's, overall, a good thing.

Jody - not to worry, my dear Grandmother always spelled it that way. I take it as a compliment.

In any event, the answer to your question is mu.

The problem in this case is the same as it is in so many others. Government officials, on balance, do not make good decisions. I don't have an answer as to why, but I wouldn't pin it on any one thing.

There are far too many cases for the existing case workers to handle. A number of case workers are lazy/dishonest/crooked. We have had numerous cases in my state where the case worker fails to check on foster families that they are responsible for and children have been hurt and killed. There are also the incompetent.

The problem is that once the state inserts itself into a problem, that problem grows without bound. We have numerous examples where the cure is worse than the disease.

All of which is a long way to say I don't have an answer. There are no good solutions to a problem such as this.

And so I fall back on mu.

Well KarenW, I doubt Amy would leave her cute lil' princess in the car alone, windows down or not. Why do kids deserve less protection? I find it odd she takes her dog on plane flights and brings along a little tupperware thing for her to pee in. But, it's her dog and legal, so she can do for her dog as she sees fit as far as protection goes. If she abused her dog or neglected it, authorities would step in. I would think kids are at LEAST entitled to the protection we give a dog, no?

And I agree-2 calls means you need to look at your parenting. It's not coincidence. I mean, I just got home from taking my 5 year old to the ER for genital trauma (she likes to "tightrope walk" things like footboards, and falls splitlegged fairly frequently) for the second time. I've not had to deal with CPS yet. Although DH may be in trouble, as I currently have a black eye (parenting is hazardous) and his daughter has genital trauma. I'm sure a certain kind of woman would be documenting this.... good thing I"m not that type, for him!

To close-my mom worked in a mall with a kids play area. Totally parent-supervised. But parents would leave their kids there whilst they shopped, against regs. My mom asked one of them "Would you leave that big fat diamond on your hand over on that bench while you shopped? No? Then why leave the kids-who are WAY more important??

Feebie, how about if your children die thru gross negligence on your part you die.

Personally I wouldnt wait for the courts, my step mother never laid a hand on me or my sister again after I almost managed to throw her down a flight of stairs.

Any kids out there being abused? Dont call the cops, stab whomever it is in throat while they sleep

Momof4, I'm not sure how you can compare a diamond ring and a child. A ring fits easily into a pocket, can be sold, and does not make noise when taken. Stealing a ring comes with none of the hassles that stealing a child comes with. While a child is more important, the comparison does not make sense. And the likelihood of a stranger abduction is pretty small. I'd worry more about petty crimes and mischief in a mall parking lot than abduction. Nobody is saying that a child is less important than a dog or a piece of jewelry. You are comparing apples and oranges and in this case it does not work. Parents who abuse their children have more rights than their kids and they get a lot of chances to mess up legally. Those are the kids that you should worry about, not some 9 year old left in a car for a half hour by her parents.

A nine year old child wanting to stay in the car to read as opposed to tagging along and whining for presents sounds like she is responsible and can be trusted. I probably would not leave 2 kids in the car because I'd want to take my time and not feel rushed, but I also don't think it merits charges against the parents.

I have unfortunately become familiar with some of the people working for CPS and similar agencies. They are ridiculously understaffed and many are overwhelmed by their case load. There are many problems with the system starting with the thought process that the child is always better off with the parent than without. Right there is a belief system that is set up for failure. Some parents do not deserve their children and some childen deserve better than their parents will ever give. It takes an incredible amount of abuse for a parent to ever lose a child permanently and by that point you have a child who is so damaged that I don't know if they could ever be a productive member of society.

You have to get a license to drive, to fish, to hunt, etc. Unfortunately people do not need a license to become parents. And unfortunately our system works in favor of abusive parents.

Wow, this really must be a regional thing. Every parking lot I have ever been in has had a dog waiting in a car, unless it is over 80 or below zero outside.

Luj - I hear you. For real.

Remember though, you were a boy - you are kinda wired to fight back. May sound sexist, but females work a little differently with these things. Part of it is wiring to be more submissive as a female (genetics), the other part is social (unlady like type behaviors), or familial/cultural (respect your parents not your intuition).

This doesn't even begin to go into the fact that you depend on these people for your SURVIVAL.

Kristin - having CPC called twice on someone needs to get checked into. This woman calls her childs father her "partner" and she belongs to a site called Free Range Parenting (wha? these aren't CHICKENS for Christ's sakes). Sounds like some warm and fuzzy hippy shit - let kids do what they want because we want to be their frieeeeends and be the cool parents. Great, well, that's kinda negligence in my book. And it's going to look the exact same way to someone else.

This woman needs to change something she is doing, because it's obviously not working out too well for her.

I also love it that she tells the kid about how to protect herself from strange men...but goes ahead and leaves her there anyway. So she thought about it...and did it anyway. Jeesus. Hello? Now she acts DUMBFOUNDED and indignant about this shit.

Sorry, no compassion here. Stop your Free Range parenting and just be their parents.

And yet people can continue to pull out the ol' "Well, if their was a God, there would be no bad things happening to children".

Mistakes happen. No ones perfect. But this woman is getting some pretty big warning signs, dontcha think?

Feebie, she doesn't belong to a site called FreeRange. That is the site that reported this story. And because she calls the father her partner means what exactly? She's a bad parent? She's abusive? I didn't realize that in this politically correct world, that choice of language is a call for CPS reports being founded. I also don't see anywhere in Skenazy's blog or Amy's, anyone saying be the cool parent, be the friend, don't be a parent.
As far as her being reported twice, my take on that was that the things that she is being reported for are trivial things such as kids playing outside like we did as youngsters, only then it wasn't illegal the way it seems to be today.
I don't know this woman so I cannot speak for her other than the facts I was presented with which tell me that there was a great overreaction to the situation. I really don't want to have to point out again that there are children who are desperately in need for some intervention and never get it and that these children in this car don't seem to fit that criteria.
I don't know if you read the entire article but Lenore Skenazy made some very good points in her blog. We are setting up a society that is always looking to blame someone when something goes wrong. I'm not talking about real cases of abuse or neglect and neither was she. Bad things happen and no person can be in every place at every moment of the day and I do not want to spend every waking hour preparing my children for every worse case scenario making them fearful to move about the world or to interact with people.

Amy, thanks for the clarification.

Kristin - I didn't call her abusive. I didn't say she was a BAD parent. I don't know anything about this woman other than her actions have now landed her with TWO CPC calls - and who's responsibility is that?

I live near Berkeley, there are lots of folks out here that arent married ("we won't marry until gays can") but raising children - and they are all into this let-the-child-do-whatever-they-like progressive-hippy-crap. And now Amy clarified that Free Range is not what I thought - but this woman doesn't belong to their circle either.

What I did say, once again, is that with TWO CPC checks, she should be taking RESPONSIBILITY for her parenting. This was a report, so no one can vouche for this woman - or her side of the story (ya, you think she's gonna tell us an unbias story if there was some fault on her end?). But two different people called on her - completely unrelated. Hmmmm. Think about it.

I've already noted my bias and where I am coming from.

I think what clued me in was the fact that she thought of telling her daughter about what to do in case of a strange weirdo and then left (nice mixed message, Mom, thanks!).

Look, if she was so damn unconcerned, why did she think of telling her kid that? Why did she look to her "partner" for confirmation? "Here Sally, this is your responsibility now". Hey, if she had to do that, the kid wasn't old enough to be left alone.

And two CPC visits. If these kids were near the house - then the neighbors probably called. Why didn't they call them first - repeated problem? This doesn't just happen to most people.

I already said I wouldn't have called on something like this. Actually, if I thought it looked weird, I would have gone up to the kid and asked "is everything okay" before calling. The reason for my posts was when I saw that KarenW said she saw a mother leave her kids in a *dangerous situation* and didn't call!

I was going to comment and tell about my childhood and experiences., plus some of my opinions. Then I remembered I have no children of my own - I JUST DON"T UNDERSTAND AND UNTIL I HAVE MY OWN I SHOULD SHUT UP.

God got to love the Mommy Ego.

Hi Feebie,

I must disagree with you. Just because I tell my kids what to do and how to protect themselves if the house is on fire does not mean that I think it is likely the house will suddenly burst into flame. It is simply being reasonably precautionary. Also, having two CPS complaints filed against this family means nothing. It is not an indication that these adults are being negligent. I think it is an indication that the society we live in has gone completely insane.

TL

I agree with Feebie - she thought about it. She considered the possibility that it wasn't safe to leave them in this busy parking lot, then told her daughter to scream if a bad person came (as if this would really help much), and walked away. Stupid.

Living in FL, I've known parents whose children drowned...in seconds. One of my friends was blowdrying her hair for a few minutes, and her 5 yr old daughter opened the sliding glass door that was normally locked (they don't know if she unlocked it), left it open, and her toddler son wandered out to the pool and fell in. By the time she found him, it was too late.

I witnessed the GUILT this mother went through, questioning her actions that day. My kids were young then, and I vowed that I would try to never experience that sort of painful guilt myself.

We can't protect out children from everything - accidents happen beyond our control - but we can control our own actions. I always ask myself, "If something bad happens, will I look back on my decision and feel it was responsible?" If there's any doubt, I simply don't.

Those of you who think a child screaming in a busy mall (or parking lot) is going to work as a deterent must not have kids. Kids yell all the time and people barely notice. Leaving your young child alone on a mall bench IS the same as leaving a diamond. Why do you need to do that? Why tempt fate? Why tempt a child predator any more than you would a thief?

Child abductions are rare partly because most parents don't make it easy for them. If all parents starting leaving their kids unattended, there'd be a lot more abductions.

KarenW, where I'm from, every parking lot is full of pick-up trucks, and every one has a huntin' dawg in the back! ;-D

"Lucy can't talk, roll down the window, read a book, or get out of the car"

Immaterial. You wouldn't leave her because you'd feel so awful if something happened to her.

It's not mommy ego, it's the sheer fact that you have no concept of the love, or responsibility, being a parent is till you have one, I can assure you.

"A ring fits easily into a pocket, can be sold, and does not make noise when taken"

First off, most kids don't make noise when take, that's how they GET taken. Second, as pointed out above, a kid shrieking, kicking, and being carried isn't a rare sight in shopping centers. Kids tantrum frequently, few pay attention.

Again, if 2 separate people have called on her, she needs to look at her actions. I let my kids play out front alone, leave them in the locked car while I grab my dry cleaning, my kids have the normal wear and tear injuries, yet no one has ever called on me. There's something going on with her.

If you have to question your actions, you shouldn't take them. That's your brain trying to tell you something.

Solution:

Leave the kid in the car with a Doberman. Nobody's dumb enough to fuck with a Doberman.

Thank god we are moving and our kids will grow up in a country where they still have freedom.

Feebie, many years ago when America's Most Wanted started to air and stranger abductions became the popular news story without reporting the actual statistics of it happening, these so-called prevention experts taught parents to teach their children to yell things such as, "this man is hurting me," or "this woman is not my mother." This was supposedly to differentiate between a child throwing a tantrum and a child getting kidnapped. I have a feeling that is why this mother told her daughter to do this if approached. I'm not agreeing with it, just saying that is probably where it came from.
Quite a few of the abductions were kids taken from their own homes. Does that mean we should start giving our young children a gun to sleep with just in case or maybe have a communal bedroom? I mean c'mon, CPS has more important cases to investigate. Two children playing alone or left in the car of half and hour are hardly cases of neglect or abuse.
Momof4, if I had my choice to take a big fat diamond ring or a beautiful little child, I'd choose the ring every time!

That's because you're not a child predator, Kristen. If we all left our purses sitting out in the open, unattended, there'd be a lot more theft. We know there are thieves out there. We just don't know who is prone to steal and who is honest, so we keep our valuables protected to be cautious. Yes, someone can break into our homes and steal them too, but that's why we lock our doors and many of us have alarm systems (as well as Dobermans).

I've never been the victim of a burglary, but that doesn't mean that they are so rare that I will leave my doors open, confident it will never happen to me.

And children are far more important than material possessions. It is a parent's job to protect their children, gradually allowing them more freedom with age. Children 9 and 6 are simply too young to be left alone half an hour in a busy NY parking lot. The 6 yr old could wake up, and despite his sister's urgings, get out of the car to go find mom, and get hit by another car.

Accidents are more of a danger to young children than stranger abductions, and those of us who have children immediately recognize the dangers because we're more familiar with the stages and maturity levels, as well as the impulsive behaviors that can lead to accidents.

These are just bad examples. I'm all for allowing kids freedom when it is age-appropriate. I let my son take flying lessons at age 16 because I knew he was competent and mature enough to handle it. I'm not overprotective. They have to live and pursue their dreams, yet I am shocked at the attitude that American kids are somehow "deprived" because they can't just wander the streets and be left in cars unsupervised. Who says this is better than having caring and cautious parents? Is it better they wander the streets like in India? I'm sure the majority of kids survive there too, but it doesn't mean it's a safe way to be.

Kristen:

I know what they teach them to yell. Ilene Misheloff (Dublin,CA) was my sister's ice skating coach. I'm not saying parents shouldn't teach their kids to yell when being abducted, that is absurd. I use to talk to her twin brother almost daily for three years where I worked straight out of high school. So I get it.

What I am saying is that there is something extremely telling about what this woman did by ignoring her intuition (look to hubby for confirmation, obvious thought of kidnapping as a possibility) this tells me she was questioning something. Was it the maturity of her child? What about the area they were in? A mother's instincts? I don’t know. What I do know, is that when I keep dismissing my intuition I receive consequences. “I knew I shouldn’t have….”

THAT is what I am saying. How many people would tell this or do this same thing to a 16 year old? You wouldn't – because you know they are mature enough to know exactly what to do, right?

This woman went against her intuitions – and left the responsibility of the brunt of those consequences with her child. That looks weird to me. I don’t know what her child’s maturity level is (some are more mature than others, depending on the parenting) –but there is probably more to this than we are seeing. She should be taking responsibility for leaving her kid in the car, period.

There seems to be a familiar pattern here to me, which is important to point out.

This is my experience. People who continually make choices against their intuition usually have some bad consequences as a result (and kids also pick up on this pattern and then conduct their decision making through life the same way). Why are they doing this? If she is parenting like this...something needs to change.

If she went in, and never thought twice about it - well then, I may have a little bit more sympathy. But she knew better, she even said so. It’s telling.

A home invasion is COMPLETELY different than leaving a child in a car –in a parking lot with the windows rolled down.

Kristen, you are a wonderful person for helping some of those kids out. This is coming from the perspective of someone that lived a life with a person who was continually going against their own intuitive knowledge because it wasn’t even there – and would act mystified when things went wrong – “ohhh poor me”. It’s telling. She knew better. She needs to change something about what she is doing. Hopefully, two CPC visits will do the trick.

Lovelysoul, I do live in an area where most people never locked doors until a few years ago. Crime has spread from the city into our suburban neighborhoods, but we're still pretty safe. I only started locking my doors at night and that was because there had been a rash of home invasions which usually happened to homes that were locked up so go figure.
I don't think you can make a blanket statement that no 9 year old should ever be left with her 6 year old brother. It depends on the kid. I had a close friend who's daughter was amazing in her maturity. I would have never second guessed her being left in a car for a period of time with her brother. My daughter is 12, but she has also been amazingly mature and responsible from an early age. I have a son who will be 15 soon and I wouldn't leave him alone until a year ago. He's not a bad kid, but a mischief maker and finder and I knew better than to leave him unattended in certain situations. All of the variables you mentioned are possible, but I still think that the parents made a choice they were comfortable with.
My other son just turned 17. For the past year I've let him take the train into Manhattan with his friends. They are all very mature kids. They are in a band and wanted to check out Greenwich Village. I've taken my kids into the city for years and he was comfortable there and comfortable finding his way around. You should have heard the horror of some of my friends that I would let him go in unattended as if I sent him in with a sign on him saying stranger please come take me and he looks like a man, not a child. Mind you, some of their kids spend their free time drinking underage in the local preserve, but mention the city and you get a reaction.
Let parents parent their own children. If there is a case of abuse or neglect, step in and try to help or report the parent to an authority, but I don't think it was warranted in this case. I bet there are a million people that would blast you for letting your son take flying lessons at 16. They could think up a million what if's and reason why you were irresponsible in allowing that. You felt he could handle it and were comfortable with it. Why should anyone else tell you differently?

Kristen:

Exactly. Because you as a good Mother, KNEW it was ok - because you know your kids and insticts well. THAT is what I am talking about.

Kristen, the difference is that my son was of the legal age that they allow flight lessons. He could not legally get his pilot's license until age 17, so he got it then. If others want to criticize me, that's their right, but I knew that allowing him to take flt lessons wasn't illegal. He was with an experienced flt instructor. And since my son was an aspiring pilot, the risk seemed appropriate given his life goals.

He probably would've been mature enough at 12 or 14 too, but that's against the law. And I think you make the case well that there is a vast difference in maturity levels of kids. But that's precisely why we can't allow it to be arbitrary. There has to be an official age. The law says 9 is too young to leave at home alone. It is illegal and it should be.

12 is a good, solid age for most kids, and I don't see why parents feel so upset about that being the limit, even if their child is so mature. What's wrong with waiting? We have age limits for driving, and I'm sure many 14 yr olds could probably drive a car responsibly too, but I don't hear anyone lobbying for the driving limit to be lowered or to allow it to be up to the parents' discretion.

Just because you and I can probably correctly assess our kid's maturity levels doesn't mean other parents can or will. Unfortunately, a lot of them would just feel free not to supervise their kids. They'd drop them off in public places, leave them in cars while they go sit in a bar, or leave them home alone looking after younger siblings. We just can't allow that. Too many kids would be at risk.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys completely. You do make some valid points. I think the point of the original article as well as Amy's is how much society has changed. Our parents did things that would never have caused an eyebrow to be raised and now everythng is suspect. While I shudder at some things from when we were kids, I think that people go overboard today.
And Feebie, I don't think you were wrong for allowing you son to take flying lessons. Its just the opposite. I think its a great opportunity you gave him. Maybe I didn't articulate it correctly because my point was not to say you were wrong, but to point out that there are many who could and would find fault.
Kids cannot be protected from everything and I think that part of growing up is adapting and learning from mistakes that we make and mistakes our parents make. I think we all have a story or two about something from our childhood that should have been done differently. It doesn't always mean that it should become a chargeable offense.

But, how? Is there an epidemic of strangers kidnapping children?

No. Society has changed because of the media saturation of bad news. I said it in another of your blog entries. Etan Patz changed a lot. America's Most Wanted changed a lot. It made us a more paranoid society and people became hyper vigilant regarding safety and security. On top of that you have the wars going on between working moms and stay at home moms and who is making better kids. And let's be realistic, the competition really is about who is the better mother.
Lenore Skenazy wrote it in her blog and it was the truth. God forbid something happens to a kid, in this day and age, people are quick to figure out ways the parent could be at fault. Nothing can be an accident or an unpreventable thing. There must always be fault. This women even went so far as to justify to her friends because she does not allow sugary foods or late bed-times as though that means she is immune to anything bad happening.
That is what I mean when I say society changed. There is no more friendly neighbor or live and let live. If my parents were to be judged by today's standards, we'd probably have CPS living at our house. And I don't think its because the world is so much more dangerous.

"But, how? Is there an epidemic of strangers kidnapping children?"

Nothing to do with kidnapping.

It's crappy decisions by people who have been conditioned to rely on external authority rather than on themselves - or use their own common sense in life.

Society has become more and more reliant on external authority. Not using your own inner wisdom and intuition to make sound decisions and choices is because you are dependent on external authority doing that for you.

If this lady was making better decisions, we would not be having this conversation. It's people like her (leaving kids before they are *mature* enough in cars) that causes more laws to be forced on the rest of us.

PS. And that is what she is showing her kids to do.

What has changed, honestly, is that children have become more valuable. It's not all about abductions. My great-grandmother gave birth to 11 kids, 6 of whom died, either in childbirth or toddlerhood.

Now, we don't have to lose our children. Incurable diseases are limited. The only way we can really lose our kids is through our own lack of diligence, so that becomes a lot more important.

Yes,"free-roam" kids were a lot more common in the 60s, but bear in mind that there were a lot more stay-at-home moms then. If your kids wandered through the neighborhhod, it's likely that your mom figured you were going next door to Mrs Johnson's or Mrs Jones', who were probably also watching out the window at their kids and yours while they cooked dinner. These were people that had kids, so they knew to watch out for dangers.

We don't have neighborhhoods like that anymore. People live in neighborhhoods where they don't know anything about their neighbors, or their neighbors are childless. I think the childless neighbors are actually the ones more likely to call CPS because childless people are almost always arrogant in their "knowledge" of how other people should raise their kids. They have all these opinions of right and wrong based on nothing.

True. I am the only SAHM on our street.

again, given that there were two grownups in the car, what's the excuse for one not staying behind with the kids? kind of a drag?

where exactly was the personal responsibilitarian in this parenting decision?

the big difference is it isn't swept under the carpet today when something happens as it was the past.

"I'm guessing she wasn't the biological mother, and was just the girlfriend, and he's their bio dad."

Amy, Glenn Sacks has confirmed that she is the biological mother.

While living in a small upstate New York town it was common to see children that age alone in a vehicle. I also did it when my children reached a certain age and maturity. They are allowed to walk alone to school in 1st grade and nothing is questioned about that, most schools do not bus within a mile, but cannot be left alone in a vehicle for a short time, why the difference?
While living in Europe many babies were left sleeping in their strollers outside a restaurant, yet here you would get in trouble. Are we getting overly paranoid?
Let's get tougher on the real criminals. Garrido (Jaycee's kidnapper) was paroled after 10 years of a 50 year sentence. That does not make sense at all.

I don't understand why the current generation of Americans who at one time valued individualism and self-determination are bringing up a generation of kids that are unable to gauge risk correctly or function on their own without having their hands held.
They are destroying their country's future by bringing up these indulged, weak kids.

No wonder so many do such stupid things the moment that they get out of mommy and daddy's ever present gaze and go off to University.

That so many of you agree that leaving a 9 year old in the car to read while you go shopping is a hanging offense, and "ruining it for the rest of us", also speaks volumes.