Welcome To The "Art Farms"
NPR's Neal Conan interviews Charlotte Allen about her LA Times op-ed criticizing Ellen Ruppel Shell's new book, Cheap. An excerpt from Allen's piece:
The latest cheerleader for higher prices is Ellen Ruppel Shell, a professor of science journalism at Boston University who has just published a book titled "Cheap." It's not a guide to bargain-hunting. The theme of Shell's book, subtitled "The High Cost of Discount Culture," is "America's dangerous liaison with Cheap."Shell's argument goes like this: Shopping at discount stores, factory outlets and, of course, Wal-Mart (no work of social criticism is complete without a drive-by shooting aimed at that chain) exploits Chinese factory workers (who would much rather be back on the collective farm wearing their Mao suits) and degrades the environment because much of the low-price junk wears out and ends up in landfills.
...Demanding that other people impoverish themselves, especially these days, in the name of your pet cause -- fostering craftsmanship, feeling "connected" to the land, "living more lightly on the planet" or whatever -- goes way beyond Marie Antoinette saying "let them eat cake." It's more like Marie Antoinette dressing up in her shepherdess costume and holding court in a fake rustic cottage at the Petit Trianon.
An excerpt from Conan's interview of Allen:
CONAN: ...Aren't these people just trying to find a better way?Ms. ALLEN: Well, sure they are, but the things that they tell people to find a better way are basically impossible given what most people have, for example, to spend on food. We have Alice Waters, for example, crusading that everyone should buy all their food at farmers markets. You shouldn't buy food that's grown more than 100 miles away, which is great for Californians where everything grows everywhere, not so great if you'll live on the East Coast, as I do.
You go to a farmers market - I found some prices, for example, at the one closest to my home. You'll pay, for example, $4 a pound for tomatoes, 2.49 at the Safeway. You'll pay an outrageous $6 for a half pint of artisanal gelato that was advertised. That's $6 for a cup of ice cream, barely enough to feed two people.
CONAN: I think I decoded the word artisanal. It means 50 percent extra.
Ms. ALLEN: Yes, it does. I think that's exactly what it means. And what's happened - I mean, it's sort of crazy. Back, say, in the old days, there have always been farmers markets, farm stands, road-side stands where farmers have sold their produce, and it's usually, actually, a bit cheaper than what you can get at the supermarket, and better tasting.
Now, you've got all these artisanal sustainable farms. I call them art farms. They're little boutique farms that grow very expensive stuff. They have eco-conscious green names, like - they'll have a name like Eco Acres or Sustainable Hills, and they'll have some special dairy product or whatever. And they're just way out of the price range. They're great. The food's really, really good, but it's stuff that most people can't afford. What's unfortunate is that we live in a country with just a plethora of affordable food. Go to the Safeway and - good quality beef for not too much money.
CONAN: And this is something that you seem to - you're very funny about it in your piece, and it's good, but you almost resent the fact that these people want you to pay more when you could pay less.
Ms. ALLEN: When you - yeah, when you could and can pay less, especially since we've got a recession going on, the worst recession since the Great Depression. You've also got ordinary food prices going up because of fuel prices last year. And so - and to ask people who are already trying to stretch their food dollars to say go without an extra pair of Nike sneakers or go without a cell phone, which is what Alice Waters told the New York Times, it just seems absurd.
CONAN: Other people, though, say - in terms of Ellen Ruppel Shell, one of the things she was talking about is all of these cheap products come from places - well, manufactured, many of them in China, where workers are exploited.
Ah yes...we'll again turn to The New York Times' John Tierney for how that works for the "exploited" workers:
Has any organization in the world lifted more people out of poverty than Wal-Mart?...There's a limit to how much money villagers can make selling eggs to one another -- a thatched ceiling, as Michael Strong calls it. Strong, the head of Flow, a nonprofit group promoting entrepreneurship abroad, is a fan of the Grameen Bank, but he figures that villagers can lift themselves out of poverty much faster by getting a job in a factory.
The best way for third world villagers to tap "the vast pipeline of wealth from the developed world," he argued in a recent TCSDaily.com article, is to sell their products to the world's largest retailer, Wal-Mart. Strong challenged anyone to name an organization that is doing more to alleviate third world poverty than Wal-Mart.
So far he's gotten a lot of angry responses from Wal-Mart's critics, but nobody has come up with a convincing nomination for a more effective antipoverty organization. And certainly none that saves money for Americans at the same time it's helping foreigners.
Making toys or shoes for Wal-Mart in a Chinese or Latin American factory may sound like hell to American college students -- and some factories should treat their workers much better, as Strong readily concedes. But there are good reasons that villagers will move hundreds of miles for a job.
Most "sweatshop" jobs -- even ones paying just $2 per day -- provide enough to lift a worker above the poverty level, and often far above it, according to a study of 10 Asian and Latin American countries by Benjamin Powell and David Skarbek. In Honduras, the economists note, the average apparel worker makes $13 a day, while nearly half the population makes less than $2 a day.
This post reveals a lot about how complicated the economic problems that people would make simple are.
Wal-Mart, bane of so many liberal types, provides a lot of Americans cheap goods they couldn't afford otherwise and a better standard of living for the Chinese and others who produce their goods. So far, so good. Cheap works.
It's also true that the Alice Waters ideal doesn't work so well in lots of places, unless people really start digging their root vegetables. And it's even harder when it comes to manufacturing the high-end goods we've come to depend upon.
But the quest for cheap costs American manufacturing jobs - actually, it's pretty much done them in by now. It also taxes the environment. Things are shipped much farther now, using mostly petroleum, from states who do awful things to their people, and more is thrown away instead of being fixed. These things don't come free, and they don't come without an environmental or social cost. A lot of that cost is currently external to the price consumers pay - it's simply not factored in to whatever discount widgets we buy.
There's big problems along either the cheap/distant/outsourced path Wal-Mart offers or the local/American/organic route. My guess is it's a high costs somewhere along the line either way.
Whatever at September 1, 2009 12:10 AM
There are two things not mentioned half as often as they should be.
The first is that manufacturing methods of even high-tech goods require systems impossible to deploy for repair work. That's why your flat-screen TV is landfill if it gets zapped.
But that's minot next to addressing the old canard seen repeatedly in statements like "They only make TWO dollars an hour!"
The difference between rich and poor is wildly amplified by market communication. This means that not only does "$2/hr" not mean anything across the social gulf, but that a new factory installed in an agrarian society forces the locals to compete globally. Not everyone will have the skills needed to run a new plant, and so a core group will be introduced from elsewhere who does; this brings the things they are used to...
... and you end up with shantytowns, just like those right across the Mexican border, literally because that is seen as superior by the people who work there, compared with their previous situation. Handwringing about "how things ought to be" does nothing for them.
Radwaste at September 1, 2009 2:10 AM
"But at least WalMart is giving those people a job". Sure, that's what they said about child labor - before we as a society decided that really child labor was not on. Accepted norms in our society change over time - child labor, segregation etc go from being fine and dandy to beyond the pale. I think that what WalMart and other companies are doing in places like China is exploitative in the same way as child labor was exploitative.
I also find it convenient that when WalMart doesn't pay its employees a living wage it can then provide cheap goods for them - it's like the company store all over again. WalMart also even gets positive pr out of this situation - saying they provide goods people otherwise couldn't afford. You need to look at the methods the company employs to provide these cheap goods. One of them is keeping wages so low no-one can shop anywhere else. I personally find it bizarre that people don't make the connection.
antoniaB at September 1, 2009 5:02 AM
"But at least WalMart is giving those people a job". Sure, that's what they said about child labor - before we as a society decided that really child labor was not on. Accepted norms in our society change over time - child labor, segregation etc go from being fine and dandy to beyond the pale. I think that what WalMart and other companies are doing in places like China is exploitative in the same way as child labor was exploitative.
Exploitative enough that you don't buy anything made in China?
Amy Alkon at September 1, 2009 5:28 AM
Child labor okay then as long as it's cheap? Wish it were possible to not buy from China and live other than the Amish. Would be if they'd manufacture in America. But there are stores in between Walmarts and too pricey to consider. Not totally humane but not as inhumane either.
muggle at September 1, 2009 5:51 AM
That's a problem with a lot of people, esp libs. They want other people to stay in a sort of "cultural zoo" so that they can go visit these humble farmers living in grass huts and feel authentic, then come home to all their conveniences. It's arrogance at it's worst, to think they know what's best for everyone on the planet, and how all others should live.
What's wrong with walmart? Do you think those same things are wrong with Ikea? Walmart is quite the american success story. Lots of their goods are cheap, yes, which is all many people can afford. Don't like it? Doon't shop there!
momof4 at September 1, 2009 6:35 AM
Antonia's use of the term "living wage" reveals a lot about her. It's a code word amongst the Far Left to represent disdain for capitalism, entrepreneurship, etc.
People of this ilk have convinced themselves that if the wages of Wal-Mart type employees were forced by law to go up to say $25.00 per hour then all would be okay. In fact, it would not.
Robert W. (Vancouver) at September 1, 2009 6:54 AM
"You shouldn't buy food that's grown more than 100 miles away"...energy used in moving something is a function of mode of transportation as well as of distance. Moving goods 1000 miles by rail may use less fuel/energy than moving them 100 miles in someone's old, half-full pickup truck.
david foster at September 1, 2009 6:57 AM
"You need to look at the methods the company employs to provide these cheap goods. One of them is keeping wages so low no-one can shop anywhere else. I personally find it bizarre that people don't make the connection."
The only reason that I don't accept this argument is that Walmart is not a monopoly. There is plenty of competition for Walmart and plenty of places their employees can shop for the equivalent cost of shopping at Walmart with the exception of maybe an employee discount. Prices at Target are comparable. Odd Lot is another discount chain that sells at low prices.
Are we really so worried that Walmart is employing a village somewhere while providing us with inexpensive quality goods? I guess the Michael Jordan/Nike sweatshops for $200 sneakers has now escaped the media attention?
And as far as these farms go, its craziness. When my kids were younger I used to take them out east to the Hamptons for pumpkin picking or just to go to the roadside stands where the food was always fresh, delicious, and cheap. Fast forward a few years to the celebrity invasion and now the same farmstands are all designer farms. Gone are the real wagons and hand-painted signs, replaced with the Ralph Lauren faux farm look which raised the price of a piece of fruit exorbitantly. I had to pass because I was probably able to make a car payment for what that fruitstand was now going to cost.
Kristen at September 1, 2009 7:00 AM
Look, here's how this works.
Joe works for GM. He wants a raise. That money has to come from somewhere, so the price of GM's cars goes up.
Bill and Jane want to buy a GM car, but the price just went up. They need raises to buy it. So whatever they do just got more expensive.
What the Ellen Ruppel Shell's of the world want is for us to accept a lower material standard of living.
This is important to note. They want us to live boring unfulfilled lives so they can sate their White Guilt.
Which is the most disgusting affront to freedom I can imagine.
On China, I'm of two minds. I've tried for years to not buy Chinese-made goods. It's all but impossible at this point.
But the thing is the more Chinese stuff we buy, the richer the people over there get, and the more likely they are to ditch the repressive totalitarian state and become a free nation.
brian at September 1, 2009 7:11 AM
Cheap food is cheap the way free health care is free.
NicoleK at September 1, 2009 7:36 AM
The first is that manufacturing methods of even high-tech goods require systems impossible to deploy for repair work. That's why your flat-screen TV is landfill if it gets zapped.
This need not be the case. I can replace the hard drive, optical drive, memory, video card, sound card, motherboard, monitor, and other components of my PC easily. It's even possible to do a lot of this with my laptop. I just sent my X-Box 360 to be repaired; it's coming home in a couple of days. Less than two weeks away and back. The door broke on our toaster oven; the manufacturer is fixing that. I'm handy, but couldn't do all these repairs. But someone could. Repairability is a design decision.
But the thing is the more Chinese stuff we buy, the richer the people over there get, and the more likely they are to ditch the repressive totalitarian state and become a free nation.
This is a good point. Though the Chinese government is pretty cleverly managing this so far; increasing economic freedom without increasing social or political freedom much.
Whatever at September 1, 2009 7:44 AM
Recessions enhance personal liberty.
How?
Personal liberty is enhanced by:
1)Growing your own food.
By population distribution, America is now suburban rather than urban or rural. And American lots are large enough for a veggie patch and some berry bushes and fruit trees. Even a chicken coop.
All of this can look really nice - and there's nothing like fresh herbs.
And it was done a lot from the Depression thru WWII
2) Limiting needless purchases.
This is my major beef with Walmart and China - most Americans REALLY DON'T NEED most of the crap we are buying through these venues.
The fact that much of it breaks quickly only makes that clear to those willing to admit it.
Again - both of these markers of independence trend upwards during difficult times as people remember/re-learn home truths.
Ben-David at September 1, 2009 7:50 AM
Kristen- Can I move where you live? I would LOVE to have a Target where the prices are the same as my local Wal-Mart! I would also LOVE for my Odd Lots to have the same amount of groceries. (We do go there to get the quirky european food my husband adores.) On average, Wal-mart is two-three dollars cheaper than Targets Hardlines. Softline, Target can't compare, at least not the ones here. They have a min. selection of groceries. Fine I'm sure, for a single person, but not a family. I do adore Target, but living within our means, we can't afford to splurge there often. -
I used to be a Union steward for the UFCW. (Don't rag on me about unions,this one is actually needed here.) The crap about Wally World is unbelievable. As a rational person, I've had to weigh the truth from the absurd. Yes, Wal-Mart does some shady practices. Very shady. They do not pay their employees squat and I have personally witnessed lock ins. However, when I balance that against my budget, I'm left with little choice. Call me selfish, but I have a family to clothe, and they come before the boutique down the street. This is the reality and it is what it is.
It is possible to shop at Wally world and not buy items made in China. I just went school shopping for my kid and we didn't buy one thing made in China. It took a little extra time to dig through everything, but it is possible.
I do not buy groceries there. They are vastly over priced on just about everything. We get our groceries at Meijer or Kroger (only when they offer double coupons or have a really good sale). I guess we are fortunate to have Meijer. They offer decent prices and they do treat their employees decently. I was able to support a household of three on my wage when I worked there and my husband was unemployed. I wouldn't have been able to do that working at Wally World.
I, also, don't shop at our farmers market. The prices are unreasonable and I'm not going to pay that to make myself "feel" better. I figure I'm helping by buying produce at Meijer, They buy their produce from local farms, and because they are able to buy more, they can lower the overall price. I also don't buy into the argument that organic and what not is better for you. Penn and Teller just did a wonderful episode of Bullshit on this. They set up a stand at a farmers market and had taste test. Every single time, ppl chose the mass produced, pesticide sprayed vegetables. They also had a bunch of experts come on and explain that there is no extra nutritional value to organic foods. Too many people buy into what they are told and refuse to think for themselves.
I say all this as a small business owner who sells natural, hand made, and some organic body care products. Is my stuff superior than the Wally World brand? Probably not, but then again, I'm not trying to compete with them. I sell on ebay and in my online store. I market my items to people who want to pamper themselves cheaply or get a nice gift for someone. I am not selling to the average person trying to get by or supporting a family. I don't have a physical store and don't need one. There is no way I could compete and I realize that.
Truth at September 1, 2009 7:55 AM
Nicole:
Cheap food is cheap the way free health care is free.
- - - - - - - -
Nope.
Advances in agritech, transportation, refrigeration, and packaging have all made good quality food abundant and cheap in countries with free markets.
And it's produced with far fewer human-hours, freeing up manpower for Industrial Revolutions, higher education, and leisure. Unlike most of human history, when the majority were subsistence farmers living hand to mouth.
In fact, prices could be even lower if farm subsidies were removed - especially in America and Europe.
Ben-David at September 1, 2009 7:59 AM
"Exploitative enough that you don't buy anything made in China?"
I look a lot more carefully at labels but honestly if it says "Made in China", how would I know whether the item really came from a factory where the owners ran off without paying their workers? And if it stays on the shelf unsold, who's really going to know why?
It's very complex to figure out the chain of hands that goods must pass through in order to reach us consumers.
It's odd that no one's suggested growing their own food. Even in a city you can grow something.
vi at September 1, 2009 8:05 AM
> This post reveals a lot about how
> complicated the economic problems that
> people would make simple are.
I strongly disagree!
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at September 1, 2009 8:25 AM
"The only reason that I don't accept this argument is that Walmart is not a monopoly."
WalMart often turns itself into a monopoly. What happens when WalMart moves into a community is that they make an effort to drive people out of business so that most other options close down. They have a reputation as being a very hardheaded employer that view their employees as renewable resources not as people. That's how they keep costs low and can pass it on to the consumer. That's not a business model I support.
And sure, I see entrepeneurship as a force that shouldn't mean people work three jobs yet still be homeless without healthcare. I want people to have opportunities to get get ahead but not in a way that overtly means paying people so little they're impovorished. We do have a philosphical difference here.
AntoniaB at September 1, 2009 8:28 AM
Ben-David mentioned growing your own food. I'm thrilled that my new apartment has a balcony, where I'll be able to grow herbs and vegetables. I'm looking forward to the day I can have my own chickens.
I admit it: My liberal self loves artisanal markets. I love finding really great cheese and small-batch goods, and I can afford to splurge every now and then. I shop at farmers' markets when I can, and I found that buying less food, but higher-quality food, meant that I could afford it without spending much, or any, more. Switching from soda/bottled juices to tap water and making my own cleaning supplies saved me a ton of money that I can use on stuff that's more important to me.
In my poorer days, I'd shop at the cheapest place I could find, hoard coupons and not eat for a day or so if I ran out of food and money before the end of the pay period. I managed to live in NYC and spend $25 a week on groceries. When you're poor, your're simply not going to spend more on food than you have to.
Now that I'm more comfortable, I can spend my disposable income on organic milk and vegetables. Silly, maybe, depending on your perspective, but to me, it's capitalism at work. We all spend our money on things others would consider silly.
MonicaP at September 1, 2009 8:33 AM
Heh. We've been growing our own tomatoes and peppers ever since the girls could plant seeds. (#2 was probably in preschool then.) Also green beans, basil, parsely, cucumbers, eggplants and oregano. I planted some mint this year too. Mojitos! I go to the local farm to get corn on the cob, because I can get a dozen for $2, instead of 6 for the same price at the grocery store; it's the same place I've been taking the girls for pumpkins every Halloween. We bake the pumpkin seeds, and I always buy an extra pumpkin to cut up and bake so that I can use it to make pie. Our yard isn't huge either. But we got enough tomatoes this year for a boatload of sauce. Even though it rained here 24 days out of 30 in June. It was bad! Most people got blight; we put a tarp over our garden for the last week of June to prevent that. Amd bow season starts in 14 days, so if BF gets lucky this year, we'll have venison in the freezer.
We went to Target this year for back-to-school stuff, but around here (CT) we would have probably gotten the same deals at WalMart. The girls didn't need all that much right now anyway. What's going to kill my budget this year is marching band stuff. They both need new shoes for that, and #2 needs at least a band jacket. Not to mention the $70 I have to pony up for transportation to the competitions.
Flynne at September 1, 2009 8:44 AM
Nope.
That may be their goal, but it doesn't happen in the real world.
Home Depot supposedly had the same policy. Which is why there's still about 15 hardware stores in my area along with three Home Depot and two Lowe's stores. Oh, and four or five specialty paint stores.
And the Wal Mart did such a good job of driving out businesses that there's a Target on the other side of town, and a bunch of boutique stores in the center of town.
Sure, maybe WalMart and Toys R Us drove out KB Toys and Caldor. But those last two were so poorly managed that they deserved to go out of business anyhow.
It's called creative destruction for a reason.
Which just means you like overpaying. I can get the same imported cheeses at my local megamart. I don't buy stuff at their deli because the corner store on my block sells the same exact stuff for half the price. And if I want specialty stuff, the Italian market beats some hippy shop any day of the week.
brian at September 1, 2009 8:50 AM
Hey Flynne, I don't know where you live, but if we toss out a few seeds in middle Tennessee when we carve the pumpkins, we usually get a few in time for the next halloween. I've even seen them growing in the gutter of a pretty busy road. Didn't quite make it to full-sized, though. Too tempting for passing children.
Robin at September 1, 2009 9:08 AM
Which just means you like overpaying.
Ultimately, I buy good food, no matter where it's from. The local Key Food and C-Town have some really weak produce sections, often with food that looks like it's going to go bad as soon as I get it into my fridge. Fairway is much better, and has good prices, so I do quite a lot of shopping there. But in many cases, the smaller markets have really interesting, wonderful foods, and I'm OK with paying more for them.
MonicaP at September 1, 2009 9:09 AM
Truth, I live on Long Island. The cost of living here is ridiculous and the local politicians are trying to figure out ways to keep people from moving to the Carolinas. I've been to WalMarts in other states and our local Walmarts do not compare to say, Holmsdale, Pa as far as groceries go. Ours don't sell meats and fresh produce. There are Targets within a mile of all three Walmarts here and the prices are very comparable. Some weeks the cereal and condiments are cheaper at Target, some weeks at Walmart.
I buy all of my meat and cold cuts at the grocery store here and buy my cereals, breads, snacks, etc at Walmart or Target. A small box of Raisin Bran Crunch at Pathmark or King Kullen is close to $5. A big box at Walmart or Target is usually under $3. When you're shopping for three kids, the savings add up.
Our local Odd Lots beat both when it comes to garden/pation, household goods, and cleaners, though I won't buy groceries there. Its sort of dirty and in a sleazy area so I worry about cleanliness.
The invasion of the Walmarts and Targets didn't kill other big business. What I noticed die down are the local mom and pop businesses that could no longer compete. With the mom and pops went a lot of the friendly neighborhood appeal. I used to be able to go to town to the local hardware store, the local variety store, etc. Mr. Van Ryck owned the local card and gift store and always had a lolly pop or cinnamon stick for the local kids. Mr. Van Ryck is gone now replaced by a dollar store that adjoins a Subway. Our island is now filled with strip malls that all look the same and all sell the same crap, but the crap is affordable.
Kristen at September 1, 2009 9:15 AM
Allen's points about Wal-Mart make sense (I'm still not going to shop there) but I disagree with her about cheap food.
Cheap produce just isn't worth it. I don't buy things like bread and cheese at farmer's markets, because even though they do taste better, it's not enough of a difference for me to pay more. But produce is a different story. Half the produce in Safeway is from South America. That just doesn't make sense to me, and you are out of your damn mind if you think tomatoes picked green in Argentina and then shipped to CA taste better than those that come in my weekly veggie box straight from a farm 30 miles away. I'm also not willing to buy cheap meat that comes from animals who were abused and miserable, so I just buy more expensive local meat infrequently. (Strangely I am not at all fat, despite eating meat only two or three times a month!)
Sam at September 1, 2009 9:33 AM
Bit of class snobbery going on here.
This post was made on a blog by a guy sitting at a computer with Web access. Are Internet access and computers NEEDS? Are blogs?
Or is satisfying a want only okay if you do it at someplace other than Wal-Mart and using products from somewhere other than China?
Good forbid the poor get computer literate or purchase video games or buy a shirt they don't "need" for school or work. Or post on a blog.
If we limited ourselves to obtaining only what we REALLY NEED, we'd still be living in caves watching the monkeys build civilization.
In the 1930s, Joseph Stalin only allowed "message" movies to be shown in the USSR. But he allowed "The Grapes of Wrath" because it showed American families suffering from the bankruptcy of capitalism. Legend has it, however, that the Russian peasantry took a different message. They watched the Joads struggle their way to California and marveled that in America even the poor had cars.
In America, even the poor can afford a flat tv, a cell phone, and video games. Would they be better off putting that money aside for a rainy day or for retirement? Yes.
Wal-Mart doesn't hold a gun to anyone's head and say "Buy this 'Tickle Me Elmo' or the bunny gets it." They do say, "Hey, if people are going to buy this kind of stupid crap, we want to be the ones selling it to them...and at a lower price."
And, as far as Wal-Mart not paying a "living" wage - do they have zombies working there. The folks that work there are paid commensurate with their skill levels and seem to be making enough to buy food, get an apartment, get a car, and even buy "crap they don't need" from China.
Conan the Grammarian at September 1, 2009 9:48 AM
I find it amazing that Wal-Mart treats their employees like dirt but still finds well over 1,000,000 to employ in the US. I guess it is our totalitarian government that gives them no other options.
Curtis at September 1, 2009 9:50 AM
I live in a condo w/ zero yard space. I still managed to grow my own herbs, tomatoes, and one little measly cucumber plant in pots on my porch. I've got some herbs and a green bean runner in my living room. My neighbors, who have a small court yard, had Zucchini & squash this year. I traded tomatoes for some and my other neighbors traded some of their vegetables for my fresh herbs. Anyone can grow anything in any amount of space. You can use a shoe organizer hanging on a wall to grow tomatoes and herbs.
Next year, I'm turning part of my basement into an indoor vegetable garden. I managed to get most of my building materials of freecycle, cheapcycle, and craigslist. The only thing I'm probably going to have to buy retail is the grow lights. If you think you don't have room, you're bullshitting yourself, and you don't need a green thumb to grow food either.
Wal-Mart, does indeed, attempt to run the smaller stores out. They just built one in the town over from me. Already, several shops have closed, and true to form, Wally world is slowly hiking their prices back up. And you know what? I think they have every right to do that. The other business should be able to compete and if they can't, they need to change their business model, or gtfo. They don't have a right to stay in business if they can't compete.
My issue w/ Wal-Mart is the way they treat their employees. There is something truly fucked up about locking them in and not letting them leave at the end of their shift. There is also something really fucked up with sending employees to the welfare office to apply for benefits. (Yes, they do.) There is min. wage and then there is a living wage. An ethical business will pay a living wage and they still can compete in the market. For example: Meijer, Kroger, Aldi, Save a Lot, Big Lots, etc. ..
Wal-Mart used to offer stock option and bonuses to regular employees. That helped, but they no longer do that. Now they offer those options to managers who are able to get the work done using less hours & money. Guess what that means? The managers (some, not all) will clock employees out w/o the employees knowledge, force employees to work off the clock w/ their knowledge, do lock ins, and terminate long term employees so they can hire someone else in at min. wage. And Wal-Mart knows about it and lets it happen. You don't find this at other chains.
I admit I shop there for some things. I can't afford not to and it makes me sick, but like I said before, my family comes before everything else. I have managed to determine which Wal-Mart in my area has good management. The employees have all been there long term and the managers start the new hires at a couple dollars over min. wage. The other Wal-Marts in my area don't have that, so I avoid them.
I encourage everyone to do the same thing. Look at your local Wal-Marts. If you see the same ppl working there week after week, you can pretty much bet the management is good. Talk to the employees, if they are happy, you can bet the management is good. If the store is clean, you can bet the management is good. If none of those things are present, you can bet the management is bad.
Truth at September 1, 2009 9:53 AM
MonicaP,
There's absolutely nothing wrong with paying more for what you value.
Problems only occur when people make those sorts of decisions for others.
BillB at September 1, 2009 10:01 AM
If I ever had a manager lock me in I'd call the cops to have them arrested with kidnapping, if they didnt show up I'd have a great self defense argument for my murder trial
lujlp at September 1, 2009 10:07 AM
Kristen,
The Target here doesn't have much of a grocery section. Maybe three of four aisles and a frozen food case. They also mark up softlines by two or three bucks. For example: A box of Rice Crispies @ Target is $5.59 while at Meijer it's $3.49. I guess they did that because they can't compete w/ the other grocery stores here, so they focus mainly on hardline items. Our markets are vastly different and your area has a higher cost of living than mine in some things.
Like I said before- Mom and Pop business don't have a right to stay in business. They have a right to start a business, and to compete, but there is no guarantee of success. Sometimes that sucks, because like you said, the neighborhood appeal goes. But that is how our system is set up, and for the most part, it works.
Truth at September 1, 2009 10:17 AM
"You shouldn't buy food that's grown more than 100 miles away, which is great for Californians where everything grows everywhere, not so great if you'll live on the East Coast, as I do"
Except for the fact some of the environmentalist in California think saving the delta smelt is more important than some of our central California farmer's ability to water and grow their crops. So it's getting more expensive too.
I grow most of my own tomatoes and greens. Lots of peppers (peppers get expensive). I've cut my expenses quite a bit this way. I have three fruit trees at this rental house too.
My produce shopping is done at a local family owned produce mart and is cheaper than Safeway - although, I've been shopping at Whole Foods for lunch when I am working as a counter to the boycott.
There is no Walmart close enough to me to be cost effective with gas - but I try not to buy Chinese products. They put weird chemicals in things. If I can avoid them, I do.
I use to work for a large construction company and materials distributor. Chinese drywall materials have been known to cause health issues. We didn't use them, but were aware of the problem.
....And don't even get me started on their DOG FOOD.
Feebie at September 1, 2009 10:23 AM
I used to really dislike Wal-Mart because of the “they’re so bad!” hype, but that changed when I worked there for a summer. I was at a college career fair because I needed a summer job or it was back to the factory doing a crap job I hated again for the summer, and there was a lady there who was an HR person for Wal-Mart trying to get the word out about their summer internship program, and I avoided the hell out of her because I thought “hah! I’m not working there!” but I did end up stopping by because she smiled at me and started talking to me… and I’m really glad I did. The pay was better than at the factory job I would have taken, actually $2.00 more per hour, and it was overall a better job. I got the job because I think I was probably the only one who applied (and I kept nagging them to hire me). The point is, when I worked there, it wasn’t the management or other employees that were shitty, it was always the customers that made your day suck. Management walked the store EVERY day to see what they could do to make the store look better, and they had meetings every week about what ideas the employees had come up with to better the store and the sales. Employees were always urged to give their input and they took turns ordering different new items based on what they saw out on the floor being sold. They also encouraged people to move up to management positions and do job-shadowing at other locations and to work toward higher positions.
I talked to one guy in the bakery dept. that said his job was the best job he’d ever had. He had worked for fast-food restaurants and couldn’t support his family on those wages and hours, but Wal-mart suited him SO well and he loved what he was doing. Everyone there was super nice and if they didn’t like their job they usually didn’t stay.
It’s kind of stupid to judge how “poor and under-privileged” the people who work there are until you actually know what you’re talking about. The pay may not be great, but especially in light of this economy I think it’s better than no pay at all.
The ONLY reason I don’t like shopping at Wal-mart is because of some of the other people shopping there, it has nothing to do with their so-called bad employee practices.
Angie at September 1, 2009 10:28 AM
Truth, I think you're exactly right, you can tell a lot just by looking around at the Wal-mart you happen to be in.. I just think people need to jump off the Wal-mart bashing wagon and realize it can happen in any store, and that there are just as many good experiences to be had as there are bad. I think we just hear about Wal-mart because some people really want to hate them.
Angie at September 1, 2009 10:32 AM
Used to work for a family-owned hardware store. Every quarter, the floors needed to be shined and two employees would be assigned to work from closing to midnight with the floor buffers.
The manager would go home at closing, locking the store, and return at midnight to let those two employees out.
When my turn came, my colleague and I watched the manager drive away, walked over to the tools department, grabbed two sledge hammers and two bolt cutters, and placed one of each by the fron and back doors. At the slightest hint of trouble, those glass doors and fences were toast.
When the manager came back to let us out, he noticed the tools by the door and asked about them. "Emergency exit" was all we said. We were never assigned to the floor waxing detail again.
Conan the Grammarian at September 1, 2009 10:36 AM
"One of them is keeping wages so low no-one can shop anywhere else"
Right, because the job of checkout clerk should be a career path with a vested generous pension and a gold watch after 30 years.
Whatever happened to the concept of "part-time" work or "entry-level?"
snakeman99 at September 1, 2009 10:49 AM
I do not shop at WalMart because here in socal 90 percent of their customers are illegals. The minute you drive into the lot your odds at being hit by an uninsured vehicle skyrocket
ron at September 1, 2009 10:50 AM
I think this "living wage" stuff is a complete load of crap. Don't ever try to tell me that it's not possible to live on minimum wage. I've done it, and that was when it was a lot lower than it is now. What a lot of people seem to mean by "living wage" is "wage that will support any kind of lifestyle I want". Well, if you want a certain lifestyle, you have to be prepared to do the things that it takes to reach the economic level to support it. I didn't like being paid minimum wage, but at the time, that's what I was worth, and in my heart of hearts, I knew that.
You can live on minimum wage. What you can't do is buy fancy cars, support three kids, and go out partying every night. Well, them's the breaks. My life was not a barrel of laughs when I was living on minimum wage. But I didn't starve. And I stuck to it because I knew that it was just a rest stop on the way to some place better. And I was right.
Cousin Dave at September 1, 2009 10:56 AM
Truth -
Every single practice you've accused Wal-Mart of is illegal in all 50 states.
If they've done such things, I hope there were fines, firings, and possibly arrests.
brian at September 1, 2009 11:01 AM
A few other things I wanted to throw out:
The "art farms" sound to me like just a politically correct spin on what we used to call "gentleman farmers". That is, people who have more money than sense, and unrealistically romantic notions about farming, who go buy a small plot of land and think they are going to have a lot of fun farming. Most of these farms come nowhere near to breaking even, and the proprietors don't even consider that a motivation; their sole purpose is fun and a sort of spiritual fulfillment. Guess what keeps them going? Ag subsidies. That's right, your tax money is going to support someone's expensive hobby. By that standard, if the world was fair, I could get subsidies for flying lessons. But of course, if we could all do that, then the country would be bankrupt.
Wal-Mart isn't doing much of anything that any of its competitors aren't doing. Check into any of them, and you'll find much the same complaints from the employees. So why does Wal-Mart get a load of crap, when Target doesn't? My theory: Target is headquartered in leftist-friendly Minnesota. Wal-Mart is headquartered in gun-totin' redneck evil Southern white guy Arkansas.
Growing your own food is great. But in most of the U.S., you can't do it all year. And in nearly all of the U.S., you can't grow citrus at all. Guess what happens without any citrus in your diet? Further, people who complain about trucking food over distances never complain about refrigerating food to keep it for off-season, even though that probably uses a comparable amount of energy. Wonder why that is, hm?
Cousin Dave at September 1, 2009 11:08 AM
thing about walmart? nobody is holding agun to your head to work there. don't kid yourself, if the walmart WASN'T there, would you be able to find a job with a living wage? No, there is NO JOB. So you have to go looking for one somewhere. Will it be close enough? Will you have to move? How much more will it cost to live wherever you are? Aye, we all face this question no matter how well or ill edumacated.
SwissArmyD at September 1, 2009 11:34 AM
Supposedly Walmart is a lot different then it was a few years ago because they got caught doing those illegal activities and now don't.
Min. Wage and being able to live on it varies by where you are at. Where I am at, as a single person you can squeek by on min. wage (full time). Move an hour south, it is easy to live on as a single person, and doable as a couple and probably able to scrape by with a kid or two. An hour North, not doable...just not going to happen. Housing costs are the big difference.
The Former Banker at September 1, 2009 12:20 PM
Cousin Dave, small organic farms (artsy or otherwise) are not the institutions raking in the majority of agricultural subsidies. The fact that you'd say that makes it clear you know next to nothing about agricultural subsidies.
Sam at September 1, 2009 12:21 PM
No margaritas? If it's vitamin C deficiency you're alluding to, a raw red pepper has twice the amount of C as an orange and at half the calories to boot.
Mary Q Contrary at September 1, 2009 12:45 PM
My parents have a small farm and sell produce at the local farmer's markets. I think it's stupid: they don't make any money. I've mentioned before that husband and I are going to need guest quarters on our next house, because I just can't see them making enough money to be able to support themselves once they can't work any more. No, they don't get any type of subsidy. They might get an ag exemption on their land, but that's it- and the location of the land means it's not worth much, anyway. If the farming were a hobby that happened to make a little income, that would be one thing, but neither of them work. Plus, their most abundant crop is okra. Gross.
We have about a quarter acre, mostly (dead) lawn, but I do put some tomatoes and peppers in with the flowers. I had a decent little crop earlier this year, but eveything's dead now. (No rain, and it's just too hot.) I have a little asparagus patch that should be well established next year; that should save us some money, 'cause asparagus is fairly expensive around here. Next year I'm trying artichokes; I've seen some other people growing them in the neighborhood. We have friends who live nearby (in central Austin) who have laying hens. Husband wants some, but I know I'd be the one who ended up taking care of them, and I can't even keep tomato plants alive... and we have dogs.
We go to the farmer's market sometimes, but we don't buy the majority of our produce there. I guess it depends on where you live; our farmer's market tends to be pricey. We just go to get the fun stuff: goat cheeses, certain weird vegetables, sometimes goat, bison, or rabbit.
As for Wal-Mart: I don't shop there, because I don't want to. It's across town, it's always crowded, the one closest to me doesn't have produce anyway, and I just don't like the store. I DO shop at Target, but that's because I like the clothes, the baby stuff, and the bedding. And, it's close enough. I buy my groceries at the grocery store.
I'm willing to pay more for quality or convenience, but I'm not going to pay more for something to make myself feel good (unless it's Girl Scout cookies). Sometimes, that means going to the overpriced boutique to grab a gift or an outfit, because it's in my neighborhood. The way I see it, it's my money, and I'll spend it as I see fit, and if someone wants to lecture me about that, I'll have no problem telling them to f*ck off.
ahw at September 1, 2009 1:14 PM
It is a nice thing to garden, whether a nice chunk or containers or a few herb pots. I remember my mothers garden. Tomatoes, cukes, some green beans etc. The problem with cheering on growing your own that I see is that a garden will not support a family's food needs for the year.
That would take, gosh, a farm! Complete with year round back breaking labor, child labor, and/or farmhands. Or going in hock to the bank to purchase land, tractors, seed, storage etc.
The average plot in suburbia aint gonna be able to support the average family.
With the population of the world today if all farming miraculously switched to all organic a large portion would starve.
Snort. hahahaha. heeheee. Save the world from horrid evil big ag by starving them. snicker. I can hear it now. Yah, bad juju dude all those poor people wastin' away hooocoodanode? But at least we saved them from non-organic horrors.
rsj at September 1, 2009 1:19 PM
Sam, I know plenty about ag subsidies, thank you. I know how the gentleman-farmer game is played because I had one explain to me exactly how he played it. One of the tricks is to grow a crop of which there is a huge surplus, and then have the government pay you next year to grow something else instead. It's especially effective if the surplus is in a commodity where demand is limited by price floors, such as in milk. The government will not only pay you a subsidized price for your crop, but then next year it will in effect pay you a bribe to get out of that market. You collect subsidies coming and going.
ahw, I'll give your parents credit for not seeking subsidies. But they could probably get them if they were willing to play the game.
Cousin Dave at September 1, 2009 1:27 PM
Anyone ever heard about Community Supported Ag/ (CSA) Farms aka: subscription farms?
Feebie at September 1, 2009 2:09 PM
The locovore movement is an example of how Progressives confuse their lifestyle affinities for moral reasoning. They select a preference for the purpose of signaling their social status and then rationalize this as an ethic. But the moral weight of the choice they'd made is still incidental to its status value. So it's not actually an ethic, it's a social filter.
Mike at September 1, 2009 2:20 PM
Feebie, that's where I get my produce, a weekly veggie box through a CSA program.
Sam at September 1, 2009 2:26 PM
Do you like it? Subscriptions here get bought up pretty quickly. I understand most don't work off of government subsidies and they buy crop insurance as part of the subscription premium.
They look to be pretty reasonable.
From what I've seen, it's local capitalism at it's best.
Feebie at September 1, 2009 2:35 PM
Feebie, I love it, but I'm in the Bay Area so there are lots of options. (Maybe you are too, I can't remember . . ) The farm I buy from definitely doesn't work off gov. subsidies. I think the price is reasonable, but I am also willing to spend more money than most people on food and I found I was spending more at farmer's markets because I'd get excited.
It's great if you are willing to try new vegetables (some I have hated, turnips are disgusting) and are willing/have time to cook frequently. I don't have to buy veggies at the store anymore, but it's not enough food by itself for an entire week.
Sam at September 1, 2009 3:25 PM
"They select a preference for the purpose of signaling their social status and then rationalize this as an ethic."
THIS! I see a similar pattern in the chic disdain for suburban living. It's okay to spend $300-$500K for a condo downtown, but it's not okay to spend $120K for the same accommodations in a suburb.
Pirate Jo at September 1, 2009 3:29 PM
Except for the fact some of the environmentalist in California think saving the delta smelt is more important than some of our central California farmer's ability to water and grow their crops. So it's getting more expensive too. - Feebie
Dont fprget the lobbyist and politicans who find it more conveint to artifically water the southern califonia desert golf couses and housing projects but sucking so much water out of the surrounding woodlands that the bust into flames dozens of times every year
lujlp at September 1, 2009 4:07 PM
"The locovore movement is an example of how Progressives confuse their lifestyle affinities for moral reasoning. They select a preference for the purpose of signaling their social status and then rationalize this as an ethic. But the moral weight of the choice they'd made is still incidental to its status value. So it's not actually an ethic, it's a social filter."
Yes! You stated that so well. There doesn't seem to be any rationale to some of it, it's as if these campaigns were picked by random brain farts....SUVs for example. I know that in the hands of crappy drivers on cell phones they are weapons(there should be a test of skills and attention span perhaps lol), but the emissions from SUVs pale in comparison to those of diesel dump trucks, pleasure boats ( a 50-footer can burn 110 liters an hour) and coal-burning power plants. THAT air is okay to breathe, but I can't drive by you in a Toyota mid-size SUV without shortening your life....not.....
crella at September 1, 2009 4:44 PM
Sam - I am in the East Bay - Can you throw up a link or two on the CSA's around here? Not too many veggies I won't eat. I can't think of one, actually.
Luj - politicians can screw up just about anything they get their hands on.
Feebie at September 1, 2009 4:59 PM
Feebie, you got crazy options:
http://www.google.com/m/search?oe=UTF-8&client=safari&hl=en&q=Csa+east+bay
Whatever at September 1, 2009 6:23 PM
Thanks. I'm check into it (it's always nice to have recommendations too).
Feebie at September 1, 2009 7:27 PM
I am all for frugality and folks choosing to shop where they wish, but what many people in metropolitan areas don't recognize is the monopoly power Walmart wields in much of the country.
My family ran a food brokerage from the early seventies through the early '90's when Walmart was first coming into national prominence. We represented many national brands such as Kalkan pet foods, Texize products (Glass Plus, 409, Spray'nWash), Ocean Spray Cranberries to name a few.
Walmart had requirements no other retailer imposed - they required wholesale prices to decrease by 5% or more per year (even in years of high inflation like the late '70's), demanded "unique" products so that they had no competition for their "low price guarantee" (such as requiring that they be the only retailer to sell a certain size product (they'd require a 30 oz bottle of cleaner when the standard size was 32 oz) so no other store would sell that product at a lower price. Manufacturers were forced to lower the quality of their products or move overseas to meet Walmart's demands.
After college and law school I left the family biz. One of my law clients was a manufacturer of light fixtures and fans headquartered in the midwest. During the '80's they moved their manufacturing from the U.S. to China. The CEO told me they stopped manufacturing in the U.S. as a direct result of Walmart's dominance in sales of their type of products. They had to close their factory which led to the ruin of a small town. My client swore that closing the plant was the cause of the early death of his father and uncle, who owned the company.
Walmart makes the decisions that maximizes their return to shareholders, but has damaged our country's economy in the process. Their shoppers pay lower prices, but many have lost their relatively well-paying manufacturing jobs and have joined the comparatively poorly-paid service sector as a result of Walmart's near hegemony.
I am a corporate lawyer. I believe in free enterprise. I am a capitalist. But having seen how Walmart operates, I believe it is a negative force in our economy.
SandraB at September 1, 2009 8:46 PM
In situations where Walmart can exert such an influence on suppliers, they're not acting as a monopoly. Monopoly concerns exclusive supply. What SandraB is referring to is known as a Monopsony - a single dominating buyer. And realistically any supplier that allows themselves to fall into this situation is either incompetent or unable to sell to other buyers. Federal defense contractors are examples of the latter case.
But if a company that sells a standardized retail product, like lighting fixtures, chooses to dedicate their production to a single buyer, like Walmart, then they're going to find themselves beholden to that buyer. This is why suppliers seek to establish sales channel diversification.
Walmart's product and inventory management strategy is intended to serve low-income consumers. That's why they sell lower quality items, and items in odd-lot quantities. It's not a conspiracy. It's a marketing strategy designed to serve people who can't afford to shop at standard and even discount retailers.
And Sandra Walmart is not a hegemony. They don't actually dominate the retail market in the US. You're throwing around a lot of terms that you either don't understand or are intentionally distorting.
Jacob at September 1, 2009 9:38 PM
Feebie, I recommend Riverdog Farm. Down to earth owners (or at least it seems like that to me) and both winter and summer have full boxes. At other farms I've seen that summer boxes are overflowing but winter shrinks down a lot.
Sam at September 1, 2009 10:18 PM
Outstanding. Thank you, Sam!
Feebie at September 1, 2009 10:57 PM
It is interesting that people are willing to pay more for lettuce as long as an illegal doesnt pick it but in order to provide a livable wage to residents they are not willing to pay more for cheap Chinese shit they dont need.
I hate Wal-mart and not because I'm some liberal.
Ppen at September 1, 2009 11:18 PM
Wrong.
They stopped manufacturing in the US because Americans are not willing to pay for a light fixture what it costs to have one manufactured in the US.
brian at September 2, 2009 5:35 AM
Brian, there's one other factor that plays into it. The other choice would be to automate the factory. If they had done that, it would still be in the U.S.; granted, there would be fewer jobs there, but at least there would still be some. However, most factory owners won't do that because they fear the political repercussions; back in the '70s, the Left succeeded in branding factory automation as inherently evil. Now most industries won't touch it. The ones that do have frequent problems with sabotage.
In the mid-'80s, I was working for a minicomputer manufacturer. They had a production line for computer circuit boards that they had moved from Florida to Puerto Rico. In the factory in PR, they were paying workers 25 cents per hour to "stuff" boards (insert the electronics parts into the holes) by hand. I asked why they hadn't bought a pick-and-place machine instead of doing that. The answer was that the unionized workers in the Florida plant had threatened lawsuits and violence if a machine was bought in, and the local government had not seemed particularly interested in helping the company protect its property. So instead of some of the unionized workers being replaced by a machine, they were all replaced by low-wage, non-union workers offshore. Further, the company got big tax breaks and political pats on the back for locating the plant in a depressed area.
Cousin Dave at September 2, 2009 7:10 AM
Ah, perverse incentives leading to unintended consequences.
Completely predictable.
brian at September 2, 2009 7:21 AM
The UFCW got caught hiring pickets to protest at WalMart because their members couldn't be bothered. The folks working at WalMart are paid better.
Damn those poor people who shop there for wanting something they could afford.
My wife is in the UFCW. Bad management can destroy any company, and hers is doing so. The union is out for the union, period. I will give credit where it is due - her union and company did more financially to help my kids with scholarships than anybody else, so her dues were not a complete loss. However, they don't back the employees up at all. The union reps are sycophants.
World class competition (Wegmans) make it just a matter of time before her job is toast...
MarkD at September 2, 2009 10:20 AM
Living wage? when I graduated High School in '74, my first real job was at a car wash vacuuming cars for a $1.35@hr, about $30 a week take home (I ate a lot of bean burritos) two weeks in I received a raise of .20, 2 months later I went to work at a car stereo shop that paid $5.00@hr, soon I was able to buy a car for $50, a '64 chevy wagon. As my skills increased, my wages continued to increase, that's how it works in America, land of opportunity for those that work hard or work smart(er). Do I feel bad because someone is working for minimum wage, absolutely, will they always work for minimum, probably not (unless the Government tries to level the playing field), people need to grow a pair, quit the whining, take chances, thank God your living in a land that allows you to pursue your Happiness.
jksisco at September 2, 2009 2:20 PM
So how can Trader Joe's sell 2 Buck Chuck-=-it's not wine from China?
KateC at September 3, 2009 10:00 AM
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