Just in case anyone wants one more link, this is a very informative article in, of all places, Time, called "Why Exercise Won't Make You Thin":

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1914857,00.html

And thanks, Amy. Three weeks ago, I decided to give the low carb a try. I've lost a few pounds and that was my purpose. However, the real difference is how I feel. Not hungry. Wide awake. Cheerful. No stomach issues, and there were a lot!

I appreciate the fact that you're plugging this guy, Taubes, but I have serious reservations about some of the crap he's spouting.

Yes, you DO need to know how many calories are in that burger. If you eat more calories than you expend, it's going to be stored as fat, period.

Don't take it from me. Take it from the leanest people in the country: professional bodybuilders. They count religiously because they understand that eating too many will get stored as fat.

Thanks for posting this, Amy! It's coincidental that you chose to float back to this topic the same week that I'm trying to wade through Taubes' book and narrowing down my carbs.

I'll be honest, I'm having some issues with it, though. Most of which consists of: what the hell do I eat? Ninety percent of what is in my pantry doesn't fit, and I don't exactly have the cash to go pick up an armload of steaks. This is especially hard, because I'm not an inventive cook on the best day.

I'm also having the opposite problem of Robin - I've got the munchies. Bad. So far, I've tried to limit myself to ham-and-cheese rolled together (no bread!), but during the work day, I find myself eyeing every stray Tootsie Roll and Hershey Kiss.

Is Eades book more plain-spoken with more ideas for actual meals? I just put it on order from my library, but I am wary of another science-heavy text, with little meal-planning...

Why no dairy on your friend's diet? I won't get through it without cheese!

People like to know what's in their food for reasons besides weight loss -- those who have been instructed by their doctors to limit salt or sugar, for example. Taubes may disagree, but as long as people are following the advice of their doctors, it's either get the info or eat at home.

Besides, going low-carb isn't the only way to lose weight. I don't question the science of it, but certainly, there are other effective ways. I lost 20 pounds by counting calories, and it's been off for a few years. I'm not religious about it, but I like having a general number in my head.

If Bloomberg walked into McDonald's and smacked that burger out of my hand, I'd be pissed. But I like knowing what's in my food.

You lost me at the "no exercise." I've been skinny and out of shape. I'll pass.

Patrick - stop trolling. It's not about calories, it's about hormonal response. Read Gary Taubes book before you call him a quack. It's not a simple thermodynamic equation, but a complex series of hormonal responses that determine how fat we are.

Amy - I agree one can lose weight w/o exercise, but you won't get that toned feeling without it. Especially w/o weight training. Exercise also helps stabilize insulin and has cancer-fighting properties. Not to mention, use it or lose it.

MonicaP - the only reason you lost weight counting calories is because you cut the carbs, even without realizing it. Post us your daily diet and I'll prove it to you.

My understanding of exercise is that it's good for people to move around, but that moving around doesn't cause weight loss.

Cornerdemon, these are some things I like to eat besides bacon and steak: Egg salad in celery. Chicken salad in celery. Gumbo. Tomatoes and pesto. Caesar salad. Clam chowder (no potatoes). Green chile stew (no potatoes). Chicken tacos with the fillings on romaine lettuce. Tuna salad. At 3 weeks, I'm throwing in a little cheese and low-carb yogurt.

I admit that it helps that I'm not a huge consumer of sweets; also, it's easier for me to keep them out of sight. The cupcake in the freezer is a lot less tempting than the one on the counter!

Everyone MUST read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. You'll learn everything you ever needed to know about what creates obesity, the real causes behind heart disease and how the American "health authorities" have perpetrated the greatest scam in history on an unsuspecting population. So continue to say that low-carb is a fad and s quack diet. The rest of us will enjoy low triglycerides, being fit and energetic!

No dairy? Just big piles of meat without even any KETCHUP? Sorry Amy, but your making this sound harder and harder.

I have to call BS on that Time article. I read it and it is not true. I do a really intense spin class 4x a week and the ellipitical machine the rest of the week and I don't tear through my house with raging hunger pangs... In fact, I read an article in the local paper a few weeks ago that says REGULAR vigorous exercise can depress your appetite and I have found that to be true. On days when I don't work out for whatever reason, I feel hungrier than when I have worked out.

Now, I will say, that when I first stepped it up a couple of years ago, at first I did feel a little more hungry, but if you are counting your calories your body will adjust and it will not always stay hungry... its all in the amount you are used to eating regardless of your activity level. If you are used to eating a lot (and most people who begin new workouts usually are used to eating more...hence the need to workout) then you will feel like you need even more when you workout. The key is to get over that hump and realize that you don't need the extra calories. After about a week the hungry feeling goes away.

sheepmommy - why do you keep insisting that facts aren't facts? Now I agree with you that for normal fit people exercise shouldn't cause ravenous hunger, but it probably does in obese people. Perhaps an obese person should only do light exercise for health reasons OTHER then weight loss. Stop projecting your fit-ist attitudes on everything.

Amy - indeed reading Gary Taubes book he highlights several studies showing how patients were given unlimited amounts of fat/protein and lost weight, total calories didn't matter. It's truly about the carbs.

40-50 pounds in a month? I've read Protein Power by Dr. Eades, and I didn't see any claim like this. Have you actually seen this happen? BTW, the 11 lbs. in 6 days doesn't impress me as much - the same kind of thing seems to happen on all diets because of losing water.

The low carb diet works when you seriously limit carbs, (to below 100g/day, and preferably below 20g/day), but it can take up to 3 weeks to get into ketosys, where the real magic and lots of energy come into play.

Few bodybuilders are on ketogenic diets; they are carb eaters, and therefore need the carbs for energy. People on low carb diets burn fat for energy.

Eating carbs, especially sugar and grain, causes the munchies. Eating fat creates good satiety. And when you limit carbs, you have to replace the calories with fat. Do it any other way, and it won't work. Do it the right way, and it's amazing!

SnowDog - if you read Taubes' book he goes into great detail of what causes satiety. Basically it's the flow of fatty acids in the blood, and having chronically high insulin prevents that. Chronically high insulin is a result of eating the American standard diet ~300g carbs/day. The ADA/AMA literally has made us into a nation of diabetics.

Good cheese has no carbs so you should be able to eat it from day one. It does tend to constipate, so you will need to take fiber such as Metamucil, or Wal-mart Equate. If two rounded spoons a day mixed with water aren't enough, try three or four. You can die of constipation; Elvis did. Get the sugar free. The Metamucil actually is a finer grind, and may be worth the extra cost.

Also, since milk stuff is a no-no for low carb, one needs to take several calcium pills a day. When I started Atkins, and gave up milk, I was only taking 2 a day, and bad things happened to my teeth. I am up to 4 a day, and have had no more problems. And, if you get leg cramps, you may need a multi-vitamin or more than one. I take 4 Centrum Silver a day because they keep down the Vitamin A, which at 25,000 units a day can affect the liver.

Actually, though in general you are correct on most everything you have written, the statement that one cannot lose weight with exercise is in the "science" category. At least some people can lose weight by exercise.

I am in my late 60's, and because of the risk of joint problems which cripples so many older people, especially running on rocky ground here in the mountains, I no longer run though I love to run. When I was younger, I did run, though low mileage, usually less than 15 miles a week.

When spring came and I started running, I was famished. I ate and ate and ate. Amazingly, I didn't really gain weight.

Then after a week or so, suddenly one day without warning, my body adjusted, and the hunger went away, and very fast, my weight would drop about 5 pounds in a very short time. Other runners reported the same phenomenon so your "scientists" seem to have missed the boat. I am well aware Rush Limbaugh had the same phony study on his show.

If I increased my mileage, it would happen all over again. There is a reason most distance runners become very thin.

However, it is true on low-carb you do not need to exercise to lose weight.

Patrick, I agree with Amy. Anyone who says a calorie is a calorie overlooks a lot of data, including nutrition courses taught in medical schools. I have written on this before, and it seems to go in one ear and out the other.

Calories, actually Kcalories, are a measure of how much heat a food produces when BURNED in a special chamber. By BURNED I mean fire type burn.

It has been years since I bothered to study the system again, but they measure the energy input to the chamber to burn the food, and measure the energy which comes out. The difference measured is the heat content of the food, as measured in Kcalories.

Human beings do not BURN their food. There is a chemical process which DIGESTS it. Even if Amy were as 'hot' as several of her fans think she is, she does not burn her food. Heh, heh.

Any good (which may be asking too much) course on nutrition and the digestion process shows different foods are digested and converted differently.

Carbs are converted to glucose and go into the blood stream. Glucose in the blood stream activates the pancreas to produce insulin which converts some of it to fast energy, or stored in the liver, and the rest to body fat, much of which is deposited in your veins, arteries, and heart itself. Which is why heart attacks become common when a society starts consuming refined flours and sugars. On the Atkins my b.p. dropped as low as 106/63, and I do not need no stinkin' Viagra.

In fact, I am going to be rather indelicate here. As men age, the male member tends to leave the horizontal, in its working state, and point toward the ground. At age 67, with the Atkins Diet, and the sharp increase of blood circulating through that male member, with the reduced fat deposits in the veins and arteries, mine once again is parallel to the ground when it is in its working state. And, it is in its working state much more often than before the Diet 4 years ago. Heh, heh.

Insulin is toxic, and is believed to be part of some problems older people have, if they are on the AMA recommended high-carb diet. Also, heavy doses of insulin produce an immunity to your own insulin, so though your blood is filled with it, it doesn't work any more.

With the usual high-carb diet, and high levels of insulin, the insulin does the most diabolical thing. IT MAKES YOU HUNGRIER!!! My wife used to ask me why I ate all the time. I told her because I was hungry all the time. The very first day on low carb, the hunger was completely gone. I had too much body fat to digest to be hungry.

It was known in 1920's that many cancers get their nutrition from glucose. In another hundred years, AMA will suddenly discover that reducing glucose can stop some cancers. They did a pilot study several years ago, my son sent me the link. With 25 volunteers labeled as terminal in the short term, they would not let them enter the project until it was near the end, they saved 5 of them, and that involved several who were so bad they died in 72 hours, and several who preferred to die rather than give up sweets.

Cancer went up in the 20th Century; so did sugar consumption. C&H says it was other factors. Hee, hee.

Fat is processed differently. I can't remember the names, but I think it's glycogen instead of glucose, and it gets used without much insulin. Instead of me writing forever, I recommend getting Atkins New Diet Revolution, and read the explanations. He even tells you how to know if low carb is appropriate for you. You need not use the Atkins Diet, it is a bit complex for the instant gratification crew. The book is good for the SCIENTIFIC explanation, and low carb menu ideas, but any convenient low-carb diet should work.

My son said they have learned that protein, in the absence of sufficient fat, can convert to glucose. So, high protein may not work very well on many people. Fat does not convert to glucose, period.

I had a problem with Atkins, and it was solved by adding copious quantities of fat to my diet. More fat; more ketones.

Last September I weighed 236 lbs, when I was found to be diabetic. My doctor wanted to put me on medication and insulin. I told her that I wanted a month to see if changing my diet would help, (though I had no idea how to change my diet, nor did I know anything about diabetes.) But she put me on a low carb diet, and the results were amazing. I have not been able to lose weight in 20 years, but my weight dropped like a rock. I lost 17 lbs the first month; 13 lbs the second month, and overall - 60 lbs in about 6 months. Moreover, my blood sugar is now lower than most people I've checked. My blood pressure has fallen about 20 points, and is now around 100/70. My HDL cholesterol went way up, above 80. My triglycerides fell below 100, and my cholesterol has never been better - around 210 for me. I have more energy than I've ever had, and I'm never hungry. On this high-fat diet, I am convinced that fat will not make me fat. Carbs will cause my weight to increase, and protein seems to do it too, but not fat. It's truly amazing.

"also stand on one foot for 15 seconds and then the other, and then practice until you can do it with your eyes closed."

Why bother practicing to try and beat roadside sobriety tests when you aren't allowed to drink?

High-carb diets will always keep you ravenous because it spikes insulin which keeps channeling fatty acids into the fat cells instead of letting them flow throughout the body for fuel. This is simple fact and can't be denied.

By the way, I am extremely hypoglycemic, post prandial early, which means the problems of carbs is extremely exaggerated. I have been on zero carbs, repeat, zero carbs, for most of 4 years. I lose around a pound a month, maybe 2. Atkins used the term metabolic resistance for a small number of people, and he was not kidding.

In the winter, I felt so good, I added a couple carrots a day; a couple tomatoes; and a large chunk of lettuce with zero carb mayonnaise, and so fast I missed it, I gained 15 pounds. No sugars; no milk; no flours, my previous 0 carb diet plus what for others would be a weight loss diet of veggies, and I gained 15 pounds? Akkkk!!!

The only way I got back to weight loss was high fat, which is hard in the States. I ate lard, and added lots of olive oil to my cooked foods and ate it, too. Here in Mexico, I buy the fat pieces from what we call cracklings, which is rendered lard.

When I was 64, I learned a 14 year old girl had a crush on me, I assume partly due to the diet, Scared me half to death. A good friend said in this culture this was not uncommon, and if I treated her the same as always, she would outgrow it, but would have learned what sort of man she wanted to marry someday. My friend said that is what happened to her, and from a very poor family, she married an important doctor because she had a crush on an older teacher who treated the girls with respect, and realized she was going to marry an older intellectual man like the teacher she fell in love with. She did. Thirty five years ago.

WoW! Three hundred cheers for Snow Dog. Except for my resistance, and snail pace loss of weight, I experienced the same thing.

See my comments about protein being converted to glucose if there is not enough fat for energy. That would seem to explain your comment on protein.

After reading Protein Power and Low Fat Lies,
I adopted the low carb, med fat, med protein and immediately dropped from 195 to 160 in 4 months and went from 35% body fat down to 12% with moderate exercise along with a twice a week 16 hour intermittant fasting program. Am 66 yrs 6'2" The wheat/beer/Coke gut is gone.
Very easy and very satisfying.

For the science I follow the following blogs:
[url]http://www.paleonu.com/[/url]
[url]http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/[/url]
[url]http://nephropal.blogspot.com/[/url]
[url]http://freetheanimal.com/[/url]
[url]http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/[/url]

the only reason you lost weight counting calories is because you cut the carbs, even without realizing it. Post us your daily diet and I'll prove it to you.

I'm not challenging Taubes' work, since I don't know it completely enough to do any justice to it. I know that the structure of counting calories is what helped me lose weight and keep it off, and that's why I like having easy access to nutritional info at restaurants.

But, since you asked, a typical daily diet: Breakfast is a cup of full-fat or low-fat yogurt, plain (the fat content depending on what milk was cheaper that week, since I make my own yogurt), and a serving of cereal with some milk; lunch is either a couple of hard-boiled eggs and some vegetables, or a small plate of cheese, fruit and crackers; dinner varies, but a small bowl of pasta with sauce, or tomato soup with rice, or chicken parm is common, with a beer or glass of wine in the evening. I snack on fruit throughout the day.

The all-meat-all-the-time plan sounds vile. While I'm not a vegetarian, I don't like meat all that much. Certainly not enough to eat it constantly.

Just a note: Atkins is not an all-meat diet, though I believe that eating an all-meat diet will yield the fastest weight loss.

Rather, Atkins allows up to 100g of carbs per day, to maintain your weight, and the only real restrictions on food are on sugar and starches. Non sugary vegetables are certainly fine.

For me, it's grilled and green. I eat anything I want except sugar, flour, potatoes, and rice. Just about everything else meets my criteria for low carb.

MonicaP - just skimming over your daily diet I'd say you're on the moderate-carb plan, 100-120g carbs/day. BTW, nobody said you have to eat meat all the time. I hardly do that myself, I don't think it would be palatable. However for obese patients, that just might be the ticket.

Thanks to Robin for some ideas to flesh out my eating.

If anyone else has any more tips for someone attempting the experiment, please add.

"The all-meat-all-the-time plan sounds vile."

It's definitely problematic for the desert course.

You're welcome, but I should probably add that I've been winging it: knocking off the known carbs, flour-sugar-starch, but not cutting out watery veggies and cheese.

As I mentioned above, it's worked very well, but after reading this thread, I think I'll try a week of protein and fat and see how that goes. It looks as if it might work better if you wait a week or two to implement a lot of those suggestions.

Know what I do miss? Not dessert, pasta, bread. I miss beans. Pintos, white beans, black beans, bean soup. Yum!

"Take it from the leanest people in the country: professional bodybuilders. "

They also eat carbs after lifting or doing high intensity interval training (not Pillsbury crescent rolls, but baked sweet potatoes and brown rice). But just don't even try. You won't get far w/ that here. Even if they are 8% BF.

They also eat carbs after lifting or doing high intensity interval training (not Pillsbury crescent rolls, but baked sweet potatoes and brown rice). But just don't even try. You won't get far w/ that here. Even if they are 8% BF.

It's that "high intensity interval training" that gets them to that number, Gretchen.

Most people don't do any exercise more strenuous than walking from the couch to the fridge.

"Most people don't do any exercise more strenuous than walking from the couch to the fridge."

Point taken. I tend to forget most people don't work out to the point of nearly puking 4 times a week.

I just need to stop drinking.

There is HIIT, and then there is HIIT. I do some of that, but bodybuilders take it to an extreme. Remember, they might be 8% bodyfat but they are not necessarily healthy. Excessive intensity in exercise might even be inflammatory.

Her'e a study by Rutgers of inflammatory response to different levels of intensity in exercise:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=842759996ABF29BFB2DF33490420D851.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=5540652

Seriously, Amy, let us know what you find.

(This comment has no smartipants subtext, OK?)

First, Crusader...wow... what have I EVER done to you? All I said is that it has been my experience that vigorous exercise does not by definition make you more hungry... I am not sure what else you are accusing me of as I rarely post on this site.

Second, I know that this is a topic near and dear to many hearts out here, but to suggest that I am crazy or that there is NO scientific evidence to back up my point is both rude and frankly wrong. Here is a reference to the very scientific study that was conducted on this topic. As with all studies, it does not answer every question but certainly sheds light on a complex topic.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081211081446.htm

Crusader, blow me. Seriously. Just blow me. Deep throat me till the gag reflex kicks in and swallow every drop. Then come back for seconds.

I will meet you, whip it out, and you can drop to your knees and get busy.

Amy, I'm curious. Does Taubes offer any special recommendations for those who do like to exercise. Often diets like these tend to tout "without exercise" like it's some kind of virtue to be sedentary, or God forbid, you prefer to ride your bike to work or you actually like lifting weights.

If he doesn't, he might consider doing some homework on that aspect and offering it in subsequent revisions.

And here's another...

http://www.rodale.com/exercise-and-appetite?page=0%2C0

sheepmommy, just ignore Crusader. He is the self-appointed blog monitor. He tries to tell everyone what to do and who to respond to. You must agree without reservation everything that Amy posts to this blog, or Crusader will order everyone on this blog to stop talking to you and insist you're trolling. (Personally, I think he has serious control issues. Which begs the question, "Who's the real troll?")

And in Amy's defense, I don't think she expects or wants anyone to agree with everything she says without reservation, so Crusader is on his own crusade. Amy knows that I love her column and that I think she's without peer in the realm of advice columnists.

So, Amy, will you be expanding your counseling repertoire to include nutritional counseling? :)

Not a bad idea, actually ... nutrition is an important part of lifestyle, and poor nutrition often contributes to poor emotional health and to mental illness.

And just from reading Taubes' book alone, you know more about nutrition than most licensed nutritionists.

Dieticians are licensed. Which is a shame because they're basically full of shit. Nutritionists aren't usually licensed or certified, which is a shame because they're the ones who I'd rather listen to.

Patrick, I agree. Some people work out because they like it or need to mentally.

I'm meeting w/ a trainer on Saturday AM b/c I need someone to stand over me with a whip and yell at me. I do want a better body. But I also want to kick ass.

I LOVE being strong. I love having muscles.

It keeps things where I feel they ought to be.

Aside from that, I find that if I work hard at the gym I am far more mellow afterward and less likely to be overly aggressive with things. My guy, Dave, turns into Mr. Hyde. He's much more loveable, and loving, when he lifts or grapples.

I need someone to stand over me with a whip and yell at me.

Oh the fun I could have with that statment

Lujie, my love, just say the word.

Arent you engaged or something?

Oh yeah, you're right!

I guess I'm destined to yell at and whip but one man for the rest of my life...lucky me :-)

I guess I'm destined to yell at and whip but one man for the rest of my life...lucky me :-)

You could have your fiance dress in costumes. :)

I've been doing a modified carb diet. I also did a bit of fasting. I've lost about 20 lbs, I'm not sure if it was the fasting or the modified carbs or the combination.

I'm calling it "modified" because it isn't low-carb, I'm a vegetarian (and that is not something I am willing to change) and I have to eat! My rule of thumb is this... I can have carbs if they come with lots of vitamins or minerals, or protein, or other benefits.

So I'm still eating dairy, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and beans. I have limited amounts of whole-grain bread (you know, that German stuff that looks like grains squished together) and quinoa.

I am not doing NO sweets. Two high-sugar foods I am allowing myself are prunes and dates, for digestive reasons. I occasionally allow myself a bit of dark chocolate. Sometimes I take honey, agave, or maple syrup on my yoghurt.

I've cut out cereal, bread, baked goods, all candy except the occasional bit of dark chocolate, and pasta. I DID have sushi twice this month, which has rice, but otherwise no rice either.

I'm allowing myself dairy, nut and olive oil fat.

Amy's right, I've noticed a huge difference in how hungry I am. I don't even want lunch until around 3:30, and then I don't want much dinner after that.

Now, this was kicked off by a detox fast, which got the sugar out of my system so I stopped craving it. But I have to say, even in this modified version, I believe it is doing me a lot of good.

The point is once you detoxify from high-carb, you never want to go back. Your body will thank you for it. Meat and fat here I come!

Patrick - stop projecting your homosexual fantasies on this blog.

Oh boy, Glenn Reynolds is pushing statins as beneficial.

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/006568.html

Everyone knows how horrible they are, I hope Dr. Helen is not on those!

Soybean oil, the chief component in mayonnaise, is a testosterone inhibitor.

And Crusader, my homosexual fantasies have been interjected on rare occasions on this board for years. Long before you showed your self-righteous face on it. And I have no intention of stopping now.

Will you two get a room already and leave your personal fights out of this blog?

Brian:

Will you two get a room already and leave your personal fights out of this blog?

You going to take up policing the blog, too? In that respect, you and Crusader have something in common. I have no use for self-appointed blog monitors. Amy's a big girl and she's fully capable of taking care of herself.

I agree with Patrick that soybean oil is awful stuff and should be avoided. I just threw out my mayo yesterday as it has soybean oil in it.

I wrote: Amy's a big girl

Amy replies: Big...but slim!

But of course. I meant "big" as in "adult." Not "big" like "as a house."

Crusader, good for throwing out the mayonnaise. There have been studies that show that soy reduces testosterone levels in men. Not good for a man who wants to reduce his bodyfat.

I think this thread has about died, but maybe someone can use the info that mayo is the easiest thing in the world to make:

Put an egg in the blender or the cuisinart with a splash of lemon juice or vinegar and a bit of salt. Whizz it around, then, while it's running, stream in a cup of any oil. I think olive is too strong. Add garlic or chile or basil if you like.

I have no use for self-appointed blog monitors. Amy's a big girl and she's fully capable of taking care of herself.

Fuck you with a titanium spork.

I'm not a self-appointed blog anything. I'd say the same thing if you two were in public having this bullshit pissing match.

Go have your slapfight somewhere else. This used to be such a nice neighborhood.

Brian writes:

Go have your slapfight somewhere else. This used to be such a nice neighborhood.

Well, Crusader and I actually managed a civil exchange. And if you weren't so occupied with lashing out with your wounded feelings, you might have noticed.

Sorry, but you're not going to provoke me into keeping it going. So you may go press your puckered lips firmly between my spread buttocks.

> This used to be such a nice
> neighborhood.

WHAATTTTTTT??????!!?