Coddle Prod
A parent writes to FreeRangeKids' Lenore Skenazy about how different life is in Germany, where they don't overprotect kids to death:
You might see, for example, a pack of 6-year-old kids walking to school with no parents in sight. 8-year-olds riding the train by themselves to get to school. Giant rope parks and cool huge slides that had no safety devices you would expect to see in the States (and the parents OK with it).Our view of the world changed again when we enrolled the kids into German public school. The lady who finds schools for kids was Type1 diabetic herself. Her first question was, "Is the 8-year-old giving himself his own insulin shots?"
Excuse me?! The thought hand't even crossed our minds. Apparently all Type1 kids in Germany learn to give themselves injections when they are diagnosed. No such recommendation was ever given to us in the States (and we take the kids to a progressive university research hospital).
In a note the headmistress at school sent home to the parents, there were quotes like, "Please don't come upstairs with your kids to drop them off," and, "Wait outside for the children when you pick them up, they know where to go." And, "Don't wait around - drop your kids off and leave."
If you look around German life, this type of upbringing makes sense. The country is filled with strong, independent people who can fend for themselves in the world. It also helps that they have a VERY orderly and rules-based society, but raising kids to be confident has a massive impact on society.
Last night, a European friend of mine told me about going down to Mexico for a beach vacation a few months ago, and being amazed at how well-behaved the children were. They weren't screaming or arguing or shouting with their parents. And these, she said, were not rich families, but families of all economic backgrounds.
My friend speaks five or six languages, and could understand the Spanish and told me that she heard one mother say to her little boy something like, "Don't leave your toys all scattered about; people need to get by," and instead of screaming or fighting, he dutifully picked up his toys and moved them closer.
I've only been to Tijuana once with a friend who drove there -- hated it -- and never to any other part of Mexico, so I have no experience with this. But, her experience is sure pretty different from what I experience of so many kids in the USA.
"Don't leave your toys all scattered about; people need to get by," and instead of screaming or fighting, he dutifully picked up his toys and moved them closer."
That's not rare, at least outside of the coasts here. And my kids' school says the same thing to parents that the german one said to this lady, except parents are welcome to volunteer. We have 6 year olds walking to school, and I imagine if my kid were diabetic I'd teach him to handle it himself, because it's his life on the line if something happens and no one was here to do it for him. Our school doesn't let kinder kids walk home alone, I'm a little irritated about that. But I see nothing above that's really groundbreaking.
momof4 at October 21, 2009 7:32 AM
Does Germany have the miles and miles of Ghetto and slums that the US has?
I worked with inner city girls in Dorchester, Ma, and those girls were not allowed out of the house alone. Which boggled my mind, but in the year I worked there, there were about 5 shootings within 2 blocks of the school.
Now, if you live in an isolated suburb its a bit absurd to follow the same rules, but maybe people are thinking about that in the back of their minds, and it makes them paranoid?
NicoleK at October 21, 2009 7:32 AM
It doesn't help when there's a murder in the suburbs that it completely dominates the news cycle for a year.
It makes rational people start to believe that they are next.
brian at October 21, 2009 8:17 AM
Of course a big part of that is here we are in a suburb not noted for violence, and we have a home invasion that ends in two rapes, three murders, an attempted murder, and an arson.
It's a bit of a shock to the system that something so heinous could happen in a neighborhood just like yours. I think that also makes it hard to maintain a sense of perspective.
brian at October 21, 2009 8:20 AM
I think part of the German lifestyle is that towns aren't set up the same way they are here.
Here, in a town, it'll be house, after, house after house. And it'll go into the next town.
In Germany, based on my travel experience, it's more like little pockets of villages. There is a definitive line between one place and the next. Granted, my family is from a small farm village near Cologne and this is different in denser areas. But it was safer for kids to run around outside b/c you know everyone.
Also, if kids are out and about without parents, and acting up, little old ladies have no qualms about yelling at the unknown children. If they're anything like my grandmother that'd scare me into shutting up.
Gretchen at October 21, 2009 8:37 AM
Let's get real - I am sure there are some misbehaving German kids out there!
The problem with these types of generalizations is that they are just that. They're very general. There are too many factors to even know where bad kids come from. It's not always the parents. I know, I know. What a freaking blasphemy to say! Yet sometimes it is true. I am not a parent but I have 11 neices and nephews. One of my sisters has 2 girls. The firstborn was perfect. Rarely cried, perfectly behaved. You asked her to pick up and leave her friends and poof...she would. Her sister? Ya right. Straight from the woumb she had attitude. "No" was her first word. Nothing came easy with that little girl. My sister freaked out - wondering what was wrong with her 2nd girl. Nothing...she just has her own personality.
Likewise, my BF comes from a family of 7 kids. In there there are 2 university graduates, 3 high school grads, 1 who joined the army and 1 drug addict. All the same parents who were together until death did them part.
I have discovered parenting is a bit like parachuting. Sometimes you can do everything right and still have bad results. For the most part though, things turn out ok.
Karen at October 21, 2009 8:39 AM
Also, if kids are out and about without parents, and acting up, little old ladies have no qualms about yelling at the unknown children. If they're anything like my grandmother that'd scare me into shutting up.
Hell, we had little old ladies like this in our old neighborhood back in Bridgeport! They were mostly Italian back then (the stone age. well, not really, but the 50s and 60s), and they come after you with their brooms! They were always sweeping the sidewalks in front of their row houses, and gods forbid you try and run across one, or if you left your bike lying there...
And they had no qualms about grabbing your arm or your ear and marching you right back to your doorstep and calling for your mom. (And they always knew where each one of us lived!)
Not any more...most of my old neighborhood now is pretty much Section 8 housing, along with all the crap that goes with that.
Flynne at October 21, 2009 8:44 AM
In France, also, people, especially old ladies, will tell a kid to behave. Here, you say one word to a kid and you're practically being brought up on charges.
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2009 9:22 AM
I'm all about correcting a kid in public if safety's an issue. Like if kids are throwing sand at each other in the playground or big kids are roughhousing on equipment inches away from a toddler, I'll say something. If mom's not paying attention, then she can kiss it.
the other Beth at October 21, 2009 10:16 AM
Germany, a socialized country, has not created a underclass prone to crime. Kids are safer there.
People in America are ruder than any, and children have adopted the amoral tone of our "culture." It's capitalism, and dog-eat-dog. Get over it. Nixon orders an invasion of a doctor's office and then his name is revered at Republican conventions for decades. Bush snorts coke, drives drunk, dodges the draft, goes AWOL--and we made him President.
What are kids supposed to think?
Uncouth louts like Rush Limbuagh get paid hundreds of millions of dollars, and idiots on the floor of Congress call the President a liar--during a State of the Union address on national TV.
I heard there is some potty-mouted woman in West Los Angeles screeching at every SUV she sees. She even uses coarse language freely on her website.
Children in Thailand are so cute. They "wa" to their parents and teachers.
The Butthole of the Universe at October 21, 2009 10:29 AM
I lived in Germany for three years. The Germans are a very polite and mannerly society. My neighbors had kids and treated them very kindly but were also very firm with them. You would hardly ever see any German children in the restaurants. This was for a couple of reasons, In German families, the mom stays home with small children and on one salary, most Germans can"t afford to eat out. Second, they don't believe in inflcting children on the other patrons in a resturant. You would rarely see children in stores of any kind. My daughter was born over there and I would take her with me shopping when she was an infant. All the Germans wanted to see her because German kids that age stayed in the home and were almost never seen in public. Isabel
Isabel1130 at October 21, 2009 10:35 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/10/21/coddle_prod.html#comment-1673754">comment from The Butthole of the UniverseShe even uses coarse language freely on her website.
Clearly, this is terribly troubling to a guy who refers to himself as "Butthole of the Universe" -- a description that's a bit hyperbolic, but generally accurate.
A pity the language doesn't chase you away. Do let me know if there's anything else I can do.
P.S. Regarding this: "I heard there is some potty-mouted woman in West Los Angeles screeching at every SUV she sees." Actually, there are small, well-printed business cards that I used to tuck under SUV windshield wipers, and here's the secret: not because I thought it would change the minds of the SUV drivers, but because I wanted to spread a meme. Read Jerome Barkow's last book -- he calls my campaign something like "successful evolutionary psychology in action."
P.P.S. The campaign was created using Zahavi and Zahavi's "The Handicap Principle" about costly signaling -- vulgar language, humor, the fact that it seems to be a woman giving out her home phone number, the fact that it looks well-printed rather than being a note written on a piece of paper, all give the message more pull. Basically, for $35, I got two articles in the British Press (the Independent and the Guardian), and did tons of radio shows, and had the campaign written up in a number of papers in the U.S.
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2009 10:39 AM
Yeah, in Germany, it is the *adults* they protect from any of life's problems.
Spartee at October 21, 2009 10:57 AM
"Here, you say one word to a kid and you're practically being brought up on charges."
LOL Too true.
I once told a ten year old to stop hitting and taunting another, much younger child him. This same kid had almost slammed a door on a two year old mere moments before. The kid was totally out of control, and the daycare supervisor in charge at the location was too inept to do anything. Hire 19 year olds for daycare, get 19 year old competence...
Anyway, when the kid did not even hear my firm, quiet request to stop the behavior, I raised my voice to that loud, deep male tone that kids always listen to. In short, I yelled at the kid to "CUT IT OUT,...NOW!"
Wide-yed, he stopped hitting the other child and moved away. I turned to the daycare supervisor, hard-eyed, and told her that is how you handle it, dear, and walked out.
Naturally, such raging assholery on my part cannot go unpunished.
Hence, the bullying boy's enraged father found me an hour later to express how upset he was at my yelling at his kid. I gave him a minute of time before asking him whether he cared to know *why* I--a stranger who has never yelled at another person's child in my life--did so here.
He was so puzzled by the question he could not initially respond. Clearly, he could not imagine any circumstance that justified someone yelling at his kid. Then he said as much.
I told him (politely) that he should know that if that if my son had acted like his son, I would be ashamed of my son's behavior and apologizing to the stranger, not confronting him. Things did not get better between us at that point, I am afraid.
What a change. My father would have turned on me, demanding to know what I had done to draw attention to myself in that way. He would not have chased down some guy who yelled at me to stop hitting another child. The country is different now, it really is.
Maybe that change is for the better, but I often think about how that young boy is going into a world that, at some point, will deliver some hard lessons about his predatory behavior towards others. Better to learn those lessons at 10 than 20.
Spartee at October 21, 2009 11:11 AM
Well said, Spartee! One really does not understand the parents who think that their little darlings should go through life however they damned well please. These are not going to be the well-adjusted workers of tomorrow, because real life is not like that.
I hate to respond to BH-o-t-U, but just to be sure no one takes him seriously: well-behaved kids in Germany (or France, or anywhere else in Europe) have nothing at all to do with socialism, but rather with the unspoken social contract that is part of the culture.
The social contract in the USA seems to have been replaced by the philosophy of "it's all about me". This is a relatively new thing - certainly it wasn't that way a few decades ago. Not sure how you fix it, either...
bradley13 at October 21, 2009 11:30 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/10/21/coddle_prod.html#comment-1673768">comment from SparteeLikewise, Spartee, if we, as kids, had acted out in the slightest, my parents would be apologizing to the adult in question, and probably making us apologize, too. And we'd be punished later, to boot.
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2009 11:30 AM
Kudos to anyone who "breaks the wall" to correct a stranger's behavior. We're all in the same society, whether we want to think so or not. If I were the father in Spartee's story, I like to think I would have responded differently than that father did. Bottom line is, do you love your kids enough to challenge them?
I'm the self-appointed kid monitor in the local libraries - the other day two wild-looking 12-year-olds were chasing each other loudly through the stacks. I found them and told them firmly they had better stop the disruptive behavior. They sullenly grunted in assent. OTOH, a large group of local high-schoolers gather there daily to chat. They're a bit loud for my taste but apparently modulated conversation is tolerated in that section. To their credit, this crew always leaves the area as clean as they found it; more than I can say for the kids who invaded Starbucks, pre-movie, the other night; I was embarassed by and for them partly b/c they go to the high school I did and were wearing "colors" (library kids = different town) and left their crumbs for the SB staff (other than that, no complaints - they were loud, but they're kids). I told the manager I would be happy to comment to the HS admin or the local paper about it but she assured me that they will tell the HS teachers in their clientele that the kids need remedial politeness lessons.
DaveG at October 21, 2009 11:33 AM
Spartee, it sounds like you handled the situation you shared with us very well. Hat's off to you.
That said, as a parent, if one of my children is "acting a fool" and for whatever reason I'm not in the immediate vicinity, I'd hope that some nearby adult has the cajones to correct him or her. I'd be grateful to them.
the other Beth at October 21, 2009 11:34 AM
My "Butthole of the Universe" moniker is an attempt to signal I am hip to intragroup recognitors.
I too can substitute invective and expletive for thought or pleasing use of descriptive language--I am trying to fit in.
Imagine I complete this thought with a few choice expletives and an invective or two.
The "Butthole of the Universe" at October 21, 2009 11:34 AM
You use your mouth prettier than a twenty-dollar whore.
You imagine yourself to be superior to us, but your idiotic moniker and use of pointy-headed language are only indicators of your inferiority.
Did you have to get mommy to help with the big words, or did you copy them from the dictionary all by yourself?
brian at October 21, 2009 11:40 AM
Getting back on topic, I have been yelled at by idiot yuppie moms when I discipline their darlings. She:"Did you just speak to my child?" I:"Someone had to. If you don't care about your child's well being, I guess I could walk away."
brian at October 21, 2009 11:41 AM
Hah, this reminds me of another of Mrs Alkons lovely articles. (several, in fact)
A society in which father figures have gone from stern, all-knowing, hard working, by the bootstraps providers, to comic relief style loveable buffoons, (think Archie Bunker, Al Bundy, Homer Simpson, Tim Allen, Danny Tanner, Bill Engvall, Bill Cosby) yields kids that refuse to behave? Say it ain't so.
American media has gone a long, long way toward trivializing the male role model in kids lives. Couple that with Amy's (and others) superb examples of how American law trivializes, and mocks, the males parental rights, and we get unruly children who have little discipline, and plenty of example as to how the system WILL, infact, bend for them.
Chronotrigger at October 21, 2009 11:44 AM
PS Years ago our neighbors had kids our age who went to school together. We were friendly with the parents but didn't regularly socialize. Their oldest, a girl like our oldest, was a bit of a wild thing. I admit I was a bit over-protective, but this one was completely unaware of boundaries and once nearly put a stick in my daughter's eye - and I can assure you I would have been ugly if my daughter had been blinded. Anyway, Wild Thing, at age 5 or so, raised my ire to the point where I picked her up, carried her over to her parents' front porch, rang the doorbell and asked Mommy when she was going to teach J---- to control herself. Regardless, our friendships have actually deepened over the years and we laugh about how nutty we could get then.
DaveG at October 21, 2009 11:46 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/10/21/coddle_prod.html#comment-1673784">comment from brianYou use your mouth prettier than a twenty-dollar whore. You imagine yourself to be superior to us, but your idiotic moniker and use of pointy-headed language are only indicators of your inferiority.
Funny, because I just wrote to Barb Oakley that I used to use big words in my early 20s, but I'm never gladder than when Grammarian tells me my column is written at a 6th grade reading level, like it was yesterday. My goal is to communicate and maybe make people laugh while I do.
As for the name The Advice Goddess -- I lost use of the trademark The Advice Ladies, and my business card said Freelance Goddess on it. I picked up my first paper, Dayton City Paper, which still runs me today, and needed a name fast. My friend Terry Rossio suggested "Amy Alkon, Opinionated Bitch," which I absolutely love, but I figured it would keep me out of dailies. So, I went with The Advice Goddess, and hoped people wouldn't think I meant the astrology woowoo kind. Ultimately, it's a joke. For those whose sense of humor isn't overwhelmed by their need to show people how superior they are to the rest of us.
Oh, and PS, I'm usually the first to confess my insecurities. I was one of three humor people on a practice panel for the Wanda Sykes show -- with two comedians with VH1/Comedy Central specials under their belt -- and they felt a lot better after I told them I was terrified I'd be boring and have nothing funny to say. In fact, they both confessed something similar. In my next book, there's a whole chapter on what a loser and a doormat I was for about 20-some years of my life, and how I dragged myself off to build up some self-respect (with plenty of setbacks in between).
You get me exactly wrong, buttwad, or whatever you call yourself, and that has to do very much with you and very little with me. PS Don't forget that I know who you are -- not that I'll reveal it.
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2009 12:02 PM
Agree, Spartee.
Kids haven't changed. It's the parents who have changed nowadays.
LS at October 21, 2009 12:06 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think a father's role is best summed up by a conversation I recall from my own life:
-----------------------
Father: You think that I am too hard on you sometimes about your behavior?
Child: Yeah. Sometimes.
Father: Maybe. But you are old enough to start to understand something. Something you really need to understand as you keep growing up. The world that waits for you, out there, beyond my house, when you get older? Well, that world will be harder on you than anything I could bring on you. I don't want you to never have been prepared for that world. So I do my best to get you ready for that world. I won't apologize for that.
Spartee at October 21, 2009 12:17 PM
I feel like I need to speak up for today's kids a bit. True, there are some rude brats out there, but as the mom of teenagers, I find that I interact with some really nice, polite kids.
A boy my 15 yr old daughter is "going with" or whatever they call it now, made a point to walk out to my car the other night when I picked her up, extended his hand, and introduced himself. That took guts and showed good manners. And most of her friends say "thank you" and "please" and offer to help around the house. Many parents are obviously instilling good manners and respectful behavior in their kids.
I believe parenting changed a lot with the 60s generation. Think how anti-establishment everyone was then. It became uncool to respect older people or listen to them. Then, those kids had kids, and didn't quite know what to do. They didn't want to be the strict authority figures their own parents were, so they tried to be their kid's friends. Yet, that philosophy proved to be so ineffective, and is widely critcized, that I think modern parents are moving away from that style.
lovelysoul at October 21, 2009 12:28 PM
Amy - you might wanna look again. That was me telling buttmouth off, not him attacking you.
As if he could manage such class and dignity.
Harumph!
brian at October 21, 2009 12:39 PM
Whoops - my bad - looked at that from within my software instead of in the blog item itself (hard to see who's saying what if you don't look closely)...gotta stop doing that!
Now you know how I got my name!
Amy Alkon at October 21, 2009 12:57 PM
Spartee: I wish I could decide to not go to work, stop paying my bills, and just take what I want from the store, and the worst thing that would happen would be my Dad showing up to lay a belt over my ass for 5 mins.
Your statement is right on the money, and parents should never apologize fir being firm. You think being grounded for a week sucks? Maybe spending an hour in a corner? Try getting arrested. Try prison.
Chronotrigger at October 21, 2009 12:58 PM
German childrearing practices may have changed from when my mom showed me a book titled "Der Struwwelpeter", originally published 1845. This was an English language translation from around 1930. In addition to Little Black Sambo, this one had a heartwarming ditty about a disobedient boy named Augustus who refused to eat his soup for 5 days in a row, and promptly wasted away and died.
My mom thought the book was funny and dated, but she also had been brought up, in Brooklyn, according to a very harsh and authoritarian method. She mentioned seeing kindergarten kids peeing in their shoes at their desks rather than risk raising their hand to ask permission to use the bathroom. My mom was always terrified of breaking the rules, which is still a German concern today.
vi at October 21, 2009 1:18 PM
"They weren't screaming or arguing or shouting with their parents. And these, she said, were not rich families, but families of all economic backgrounds."
Why on earth would one think that rich kids were more likely to be well-behaved? In my extensive baby-sitting experience, I have found that the more affluent children were far more likely to find discipline grating and insist on having their own way. Their parents found it easier to let the kids watch TV/mess up the house/ buy the latest toy or gadget than put up with their squalling. The most well-behaved little girl I ever saw had a father in prison and a mother on drugs; she was in foster care. She was always in a positive, peaceful mood, and exquisitely polite behavior seemed a coping device to make herself more endearing to people.
a reader at October 21, 2009 1:23 PM
amazing, how somebody could compare Reagan to Dubya as if they were of the same mold and time period. I guess I could compare that idiot Jimmy Carter with the super naive imposter now in the whitehouse, but that would be completely unfair to that idiot Carter. And somebody standing up in congress and calling a liar a liar is great. It was as if somebody noticed the emperor was indeed naked.
ron at October 21, 2009 1:26 PM
Ron--There are ways to do things within protocol and still make one's disagreement clear. Yelling "You lie!" was just so lazy--it didn't smack of cleverness at all, and rather than enticing the Dems, it alienated them. If one can't make a compelling argument rather than shout fighting words, one has to work on making the argument more appealing, rather than take the lazy way out. "You lie!" is the kind of thing a spoiled teenager would yell from the back of the auditorium at the student body president who had made some ludicrous campaign promise in some teen movie. It's not appropriate for grown-up business.
a reader at October 21, 2009 1:43 PM
"My mom was always terrified of breaking the rules, which is still a German concern today."
This made me chuckle.
I'm always told I'm all talk - that I will talk about the injustice of a rule or law and say how it's a bunch of bullshit. But then I'll follow it anyway...you can't get a law changed if you're in jail, can you?
It's significantly easier to accomplish changes when you at first try to respect the thing that upsets you, or understand why this thing is a certain way.
Anyway, it's just funny because I was always raised to play it by the rules, even if the rules are shit (and by all means, fight them). I can see how it comes from my German side based on how my grandparents and other relatives behave.
Gretchen at October 21, 2009 1:51 PM
My favorite parenting author is John Rosemond.
He speaks about many of the things written about in the article and in the comments.
I have heard him on several different occasions write about going to the Bahamas and how well the native kids there behave and they don't have anywhere near the material things that American kids have.
His point being that American parents seem to think their kids have to have nintendo, I Pods, cabbage patch dolls etc... otherwise your being a bad parent and depriving your kids. He also hints that many American parents assume that there kids appreciate all these material things they buy them and show it by acting like the spoiled children they are out in public.
David M. at October 21, 2009 2:08 PM
I remember watching a documentary on the "new Europe" (okay, it was a while ago). A German and a Spaniard who had taken jobs in the other's country were being interviewed. The conversation got around to trains, travel, and commuting.
The Spaniard hated Germany because when he arrived at the train station (as was his custom in Spain) "only a few minutes late," the train had already left the station. There was no "give" in the schdule. Germany was too rigidly scheduled for him.
The German was frustrated because the trains in Spain (presumably the ones mainly on the plain...sorry) never left on time. He couldn't schedule his day because he couldn't rely on the printed train schedule and he never knew what the actual train schedule was. Spain was not scheduled rigidly enough for him.
Conan the Grammarian at October 21, 2009 5:28 PM
I have the opposite problem with people: They tell my girl whatever she does is OK. She bumps into someone, I say, "Honey, say excuse me," if she hasn't already. She knocks something off a shelf, she knows to pick it up. She's at the age where she enjoys cleaning the table at our favorite cafe. She's a tiny thing, as delicate as they come, and people respond to her almost automatically. The problem is: They tell her it's ok.
It's ok, honey, you don't have to do that.
or
That's ok, honey, when she apologizes for whatever.
I always tell her it's not ok, and that even if people don't expect it, it's better to be unexpectedly polite than ever be intentionally rude.
MomofRae at October 21, 2009 9:14 PM
Does Germany have a smaller number of kid-diddlers per capita than the US, by any chance? That could be why kids are allowed to walk to school so freely over there. The point is taken about the other stuff, however. We're spoiling and over-protecting our kids, and if we want a country with actual men in it in the future, we should stop this stuff right away.
mpetrie98 at October 21, 2009 9:51 PM
i was at a store once and there was a mother and her little girl, maybe 7 or 8. the kid was continually walking around, touching everything, and the mother kept telling her not to touch things, but never giving her a consequence or a punishment for disobeying. so i saw the girl, a bit away from her mother, pick her nose and then promptly reach out to grab something with the same hand. i said to her, 'don't pick your nose and then touch stuff', with my properly disgusted expression of course. you should have seen the look on this kid's face - she was so surprised and quite embarrassed, i think, she immediately went back to her mother and didn't touch anything else again. we really shouldn't have eliminated shame from our culture....it's so effective, when properly applied....
whatever at October 21, 2009 10:16 PM
You mean like when people say things like "Children don't mothers"?
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at October 21, 2009 10:40 PM
Need... Need mothers. Or fathers. Everyone sees where that was going, right?
I hate it when I bungle a towel-snap.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at October 21, 2009 10:42 PM
Whatever, I agree that eliminating shame from the culture causes a lot of problems.
I am never surprised by the number of people I come across who seem to have an infinite ability to act like complete morons or be obnoxious and unreasonable without showing the slightest hint of shame or embarrassment. I always think 'no prizes for guessing you were raised by a mommy who told you your shit doesn't stink.'
Nick S at October 21, 2009 11:24 PM
"Does Germany have a smaller number of kid-diddlers per capita than the US, by any chance?"
The US doesn't have many either - just a media that blows every individual case totally out of proportion. Child protection sites rage about the fact that there are 400,000 registered sexual offenders in the USA. Have a careful look at the statistics, and you will see that many of these are teens who had sex with younger teens or, in some cases, even kids who basically got caught playing "doctor".
Some data from a government report [[7/00, NCJ 182990, U.S. Department of Justice]]
- "39% of offenders of victims ages 6 through 11 were also juveniles."
- Stranger danger (not): "Strangers were the offender in just 3% of sexual assaults against victims under age 6 and 5% of the sexual assault of victimizations of youth ages 6 through 11."
Parents - and society - have been made paranoid by a sensationalist media and "do gooder" liberals who want the government to take care of us all...
bradley13 at October 22, 2009 12:30 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/10/21/coddle_prod.html#comment-1673848">comment from MomofRaeMomofRae's daughter is very polite. Very different from many of the children who come with their parents to this cafe. She sits quietly at a table and reads. Yes, actually sits in the chair, and doesn't get up and run around the place like a little wild thing, like other children, and doesn't interrupt or try to be the center of attention when her mom is talking to another adult.
Amy Alkon at October 22, 2009 1:27 AM
'What a change. My father would have turned on me, demanding to know what I had done to draw attention to myself in that way. He would not have chased down some guy who yelled at me to stop hitting another child. The country is different now, it really is.'
Oh, how true....it really saddens me. I know a parent whose reaction to being told that her son was cheating in class was not to talk to her son about it but to immediately scream 'How dare you accuse my child? What kind of a teacher are you!?' and storm out.
'Let's get real - I am sure there are some misbehaving German kids out there!'
The point was the societal expectations and reactions to child misbehavior. Too many Americans are blind to what their kids are doing in public.
'Does Germany have a smaller number of kid-diddlers per capita than the US, by any chance?'
We just think we have more, and react accordingly.
crella at October 22, 2009 2:50 AM
butthole, i-hole, asshole
I dont give a shit what he call himself, I know Amy only bans mass spammers and not the rectal worms of brain dead gibbons
But I was serious about the posters taking a vote on banning the POS
lujlp at October 22, 2009 2:50 AM
Heh! Lots of the problems you mention might be localized somewhat to the sanctimommies on the east and west coasts. Kids are walking to my boy's school all by themselves at age 6 with no problems. (Mine isn't 'cause we live too far away.)
Also, lady walked up to me at the playground the other day. She asked me if I was B's mom, and then proceeded to tell me what my kid had done to another kid, how she had corrected my child's behavior, how he had mouthed off to her and she had read him the riot act-- and that to his credit, my boy had apologized. I apologized to her for the mouthing-off from my kid and told her she had my permission to correct my child ANY time she sees him doing anything potentially harmful on the playground! And with that, a new friendship was forged.
Melissa G at October 22, 2009 7:19 AM
I feel the need to point out that some kids who circle the table instead of sitting in their chair are doing so because they're autistic. Circling the table is a common coping mechanism for autistic kids in unfamiliar, uncomfortable, or overstimulating environments.
That said, if my autistic kid were RUNNING in a restaurant rather than walking, I would take him the heck outside immediately.
Melissa G at October 22, 2009 7:23 AM
My comments are getting eaten...
Melissa G at October 22, 2009 7:24 AM
"39% of offenders of victims ages 6 through 11 were also juveniles."
How old were those immigrant boys (liberians, perhaps? I forget) who raped the 8 year old girl? I'm pretty sure they were all under 12. SO them being young and on the list in no way means those aren't actual sexual predators.
I was at the pool with my kiddos, and a little boy kept cutting in line at the waterslide. I finally said "excuse me, little boy, please wait your turn".
At which point the mom got off her fat ass and ambled down to the pool and yelled at me for talking to her kid like that, and told me if I have a problem with a kid I need to tell the parents, not the kid. I replied I would have, had she been in evidence, and if she'd been with her kid supervising (kid was maybe 4?) I wouldn't've HAD to say anything.
She then proceeded on the race rant, because I called him little boy instead of his name I had no way of knowing. 2 guesses where he'll be before age 18.
momof4 at October 22, 2009 7:41 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/10/21/coddle_prod.html#comment-1673882">comment from Melissa GMy comments are getting eaten...
They aren't, Melissa G -- cycle your browser; you posted two just above that one saying they were being eaten, and there are none in my spam folder. Also, the way to let me know that is by e-mail. Don't always see every comment here if I'm on deadline, etc.
Amy Alkon at October 22, 2009 7:46 AM
The Liberian boys (in Phoenix) are aged 9, 10, 13 and 14.
From Sept. 30th, az dot com:
"Monday's hearing was to designed to help Judge Dawn Bergin decide if the 10-year-old is competent to stand trial. Two mental-health experts found that he is not.
"A 14-year-old is charged as an adult, a 13-year-old is undergoing a court-ordered process intended to make him competent to stand trial, and a 9-year-old has been ruled incompetent."
Random thoughts about this thread:
From a former member of alt support childfree:
"If you don't want my opinion on how to raise your children, do not allow your children to behave in a manner that elicits my opinion."
To Crella: As Dr. Rosemond would put it, modern parents often have the mistaken idea that if they do everything right, their kids will never do anything wrong. This is untrue. Even dogs, who are born wanting to please others (unlike humans), cannot be so easily controlled, because even they have free will. Parents who can't grasp this therefore assume that every criticism of their child is either a lie or an attack on the PARENT. In the past, Rosemond said, when kids misbehaved, most parents understood that it was merely time to lower the boom on the kid, not assume that they, the parents, must have done something wrong, and that chances are, they might eventually have to punish the kid again for something completely different.
If you want an example of good parents turning out bad kids, just check out the movie "Goodfellas." (Though I have to say there are serious holes in the plot, both in the movie and book - I mean, how could the dad be so blind as to not worry about the constant presence and influence of partying gangsters in the neighborhood? Or just who was hiring Henry at age 11? Most of all, once he found out Henry was skipping school, why would the lack of letters from the postman (remember why?) be enough to convince the belt-wielding dad that all was well at school?)
Unfortunately, too, we have to remember that just as many white teens in the 1960s had serious reasons to rebel and question their parents' idea of "civility" (which didn't include standing up for the civil rights movement or even acknowledging that racism was far more - and worse - than mere rudeness) so too we have to remember that there WAS a time when it was common for teachers to hit kids, which didn't make it easy for kids to stand up to adult bullies in general, whether the bullying was physical or not. Or for kids to blow the whistle on criminals who have authority. We DO have to acknowledge that adults aren't perfect, but we can't let kids think that they can accuse without proof.
And, if some people are to believed, there once was a time when, in small towns at least, people could and did spank the neighbors' children without advance permission. (Probably in the Depression?) In the 1993 movie "King of the Hill," which takes place at that time, cops are also free to bully small white boys - such as pulling them by the ear. Somehow, we don't hear news stories like that today - but we see plenty
of black teens being brutalized on camera.
A German play (GRIPS Theatre) from the early 1970s is "Bizzy, Dizzy, Daffy & Arthur." It's about four kids who have no playground available to them and whose neighbors yell at them for making the slightest noise (from what I understand, it's no accident that this play was written in Germany, what with Kinderfeindlichkeit and all) so they break into an abandoned building to play and get arrested by a pair of cops, Knick and Knock. Chaos ensues at the police station. What's interesting (SPOILER) is that as an adult reader, you might assume that the cops are playing "good cop / bad cop" at one point, but it turns out that the good cop really is just that!
lenona at October 22, 2009 8:31 AM
Maybe this is a regional thing, as someone suggested. Here, in FL, where we have a lot of hispanics, who are pretty traditional regarding discipline, kids seem to be better behaved, and in almost 20 years of parenting, I've never had another parent yell at me for correcting their child. I've actually had other parents request that I discipline their kids if they get out of line.
Yet, in our state, we also seem to have a disproportinate number of pedophile abductions. There was the little girl buried alive a few years ago, and a 7 yr old girl near Jacksonville was just kidnapped walking home from school this week, and they believe they've found her body in a landfill. There's no way I would let a 7 yr old walk to school alone (she'd actually been with her siblings but ran ahead of them). Perhaps it's safer in Germany, but we just can't do that here and feel like responsible parents.
lovelysoul at October 22, 2009 8:59 AM
MomofRae's daughter is very polite. Very different from many of the children who come with their parents to this cafe. She sits quietly at a table and reads. Yes, actually sits in the chair, and doesn't get up and run around the place like a little wild thing, like other children, and doesn't interrupt or try to be the center of attention when her mom is talking to another adult.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at October 22, 2009 1:27 AM
I'm almost teary. This is better than a good report card. Thanks!
MomofRae at October 22, 2009 9:20 AM
I currently live in a rather small town in Wyoming, and we seem to have quite a few registered sex offenders in the region. Every time one of these individuals moves to a new location in our area, fliers go up in gas stations and stores, and we even get picture texts with the person's name and photo. Kids around here are aware of what these people look like, and what to do if they are approached by anyone they don't know trying to get the to go somewhere or do something. The kids still run loose through town, usually in packs, and the only time lately that I've heard any kids told to stay inside at night was when we had a mountain lion migrating just outside town. Most of the kids around here are also well behaved, though there are some who are not, but they are generally shunned by the other children and if the parents don't correct the behavior, other adults step in.
darkwinter at October 22, 2009 9:40 AM
This is from a Miami Herald article about the missing girl, Somer Thompson, in FL:
"...police have questioned more than 70 registered sex offenders in the area, and that process was continuing. Florida Department of Law Enforcement records show 161 offenders live in a 5-mile radius of Somer's home."
Granted, many of those are likely not dangerous offenders and possibly shouldn't even be on the list, but why should any parent be criticized for not letting their children roam free in neighborhoods where there are that many potential threats? I get sort of annoyed by the implication that showing caution is equivalent with bad parenting.
lovelysoul at October 22, 2009 10:46 AM
According to this, the murder rate is 6 times higher in the US than in Germany. I'm assuming then that the child abduction rate there is also very low.
http://www.atlanticreview.org/archives/434-Murder-Rate-in-the-United-States-and-Germany.html
So, naturally, they have much less fear that their precious child will be kidnapped on the way home from school and dumped in the garbage, like we do. It's unfortunate, but American parents simply cannot function with the same sense of security as German parents, or even the way parents here did in previous generations.
lovelysoul at October 22, 2009 11:23 AM
"The problem is: They tell her it's ok.
It's ok, honey, you don't have to do that.
or
That's ok, honey, when she apologizes for whatever"
And we wonder why young people don't grow up or take responsibilty for themselves. Not aimed at you momofrae, you are doing a bang up job, I think your good parenting has served to point out one of the issues present society may have.
Amax at October 22, 2009 12:59 PM
Out of curiousity, what is the correct response when someone apologizes for some minor slight like bumping into you. I've always said, "That's OK" as an acceptance of apology. I agree that saying "You don't have to do that" is incorrect. I'd thank the person for doing whatever it was.
I often say, "That's OK sweetie" when one of our friends kids apologizes for some little thing. I didn't realize this might be sending a message of "whatever you did was OK and no need to apolgozie". Suggestions for a better response?
moreta at October 22, 2009 2:42 PM
They don't really mean it's ok. It's just a pleasantry. We all do it. Someone apologizes and we say, "That's ok". What would you rather they say? "Yeah, you better be!" Or give them a lecture? That would be teaching kids that doing the right thing is met with rudeness.
If you keep teaching them to pick up after themselves and apologize when they do wrong, most kids will learn that this pleases adults, no matter how they go on about it being unnecessary, and they'll also catch on to the fact that the "It's ok" response is just a form of politeness. One hopefully they will learn to employ themselves.
lovelysoul at October 22, 2009 2:53 PM
They don't really mean it's ok. It's just a pleasantry. We all do it. Someone apologizes and we say, "That's ok". What would you rather they say? "Yeah, you better be!" Or give them a lecture? That would be teaching kids that doing the right thing is met with rudeness.
_________________________
What's wrong with simple silence on the adult's part unless the kid is old enough to understand that it's not "really" OK?
lenona at October 22, 2009 3:04 PM
"What's wrong with simple silence on the adult's part unless the kid is old enough to understand that it's not "really" OK?"
Because that would be rude, and why should we teach kids to be rude?
I think it's crucial that kids learn the socials manners we adults use, especially since we so often don't say what we really mean. For instance, if you go to someone's house for a party, and you start to help clean up afterwards, a good host will say, "Oh, no, no, you don't have to do that!" If kids learn to take every statement at face value, they'll just drop the stuff and leave.
A whole lot of good manners is like that. Kids need to learn to play the game, read between the lines. They need to write thank you notes for stuff don't actually like. They need to tell people they look nice when they actually don't. We'd be remiss in teaching them to always take and say everything literally.
I suppose if one can't bring themselves to say, "That's ok," when a child makes an apology, then they could respond with, "I really appreciate your apology. That's very gracious of you to admit your mistake."
lovelysoul at October 22, 2009 3:38 PM
I had a parental encounter a lot like Spartee's a few weeks ago in the grocery store. A kid about 7 or 8 years old was picking up pieces of soft, saran-wrapped brie cheese and digging his fingers deeply into them, leaving huge holes in the cheese. Although several adults were nearby, it wasn't clear which adult was with the kid, and there were no store employees nearby. So I took matters into my own hands. I said to the kid, firmly but politely, "Excuse me, but you shouldn't play with the cheese. No one will want to buy cheese that has your thumbprints in it." The kid quickly pulled his hands back from the cheese display, looking very abashed. So far, so good. But then a woman nearby wheeled around and began to berate me for having the nerve to "discipline" her child. As she scolded me, the kid promptly picked up another piece of cheese and began to dig his fingers in it, looking at me defiantly. I said "you're right, it IS your responsibility to discipline your kid. So do it." And then I walked away to find a manager.
The cheese was about $7 a pop. The kid destroyed at least $28 worth of cheese. I'm hoping they made the mom buy every bit of it.
Gail at October 22, 2009 4:20 PM
Gail, that was kinda like the incident I had with a couple of kids at the grocery store who were wearing those "heelies", the sneakers with the wheels in the heels so the kids can cruise around? Anyway, 2 kids, apparently a brother and sister, were wheeling away around the store, and crashing into the loaves of bread on a low rack in front of the deli case. BOTH parents were in line waiting for their number to be called, totally oblivious. Just so happened that I knew the manager at the time, and several of the other people who worked there. Caught one of my friends by the sleeve and showed her what was going on. She got the manager for me, I told him, and he went over to the parents and gave them what for. They were so indignant - "not our kids" - even though the kids kept on doing it! Manager asked them to leave the store, which they did, leaving their almost full cart right there. He thanked me and told me it was worth losing that one sale. He had to remove almost 20 loaves from the rack, and another 10 or so bags of fresh rolls. (Last time I went there, the bread rack wasn't in front of the deli case anymore. How nice to have to inconvenience people who just pop in for lunchmeat and rolls, who used to be able to just get both in one place, now you have to walk all the way to the other end of the store for the bread, just because these idiots can't control their kids.)
Flynne at October 22, 2009 5:15 PM
one day one of those kids is gonna wheel by me and I'm gonna stick my foot out.
Gravity: it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
brian at October 22, 2009 9:41 PM
"That's ok."
It's not so much the words as the way they say it, as though her apology itself was unnecessary and not that her apology is appreciated. I don't want her picking up on the former
And I want her to restock shelves she messes up and clean her own mess at the table. I wish people wouldn't tell her she didn't have to (even if she is just 43 pounds at going on 7!)
This might be more West Coast than anything. Shops and restaurants let kids get away with murder, maybe because they think their parents are rich and will spend a lot. A kid can pretty much take a poop in an upscale place and if mom and dad are spending money, well "that's ok."
MomofRae at October 22, 2009 11:40 PM
"Parents who can't grasp this therefore assume that every criticism of their child is either a lie or an attack on the PARENT."
Lenona, that's precisely the attitude I see, and I never understood it! My sister is her daughter's best friend, and her daughter can do no wrong. It seems to be endemic in my sister's age group,her friends and the mothers of my niece's classmates. Anytime anyone tells them anything about their kids, they shoot the messenger. 'Not my kid!' 'Who the hell do you think you are?'followed with 'You wouldn't do anything like that, would you dear?' to the child. It drives me crazy.
I can't tell you the grief I feel watching this whole situation the last few years....I can see major problems, both now and on the horizon as consequences of the situation as it stands, but you can't say anything as it's 'criticizing'. I am going to read some of Dr. Rosemond's writings, to see if I can get my head around what I'm seeing. The insight you've given me today has brought the situation somewhat into focus.
Sometimes I think I should wash my hands of it completely, seeing as her actual parent is unconcerned, but I can't quite give up, it bothers me so much.
crella at October 23, 2009 2:32 AM
I'm wondering if this behavior is more common in "trendy" locales like CA and the east coast, where people tend to be more liberal in general, which probably crosses over to their parenting.
Here, hispanic families will ground their kids in a heartbeat. If a child is visiting my house, I have to really be careful not to even imply there was any misbehavior or I know that kid's in big trouble. They demand that their kids respect me and follow my rules.
But I also haven't had any issues with caucasian kids either, beyond the typical stuff. Once, my son and a friend tried spray-painting "grafitti" on the side of a fence. We caught them, told the other parents, and they immediately agreed with us that both boys should scrub the whole fence clean, which they did, all day long, in the hot sun.
I think a lot of it may also be in the approach. It's important not to sound judgmental but helpful. Parents do feel overly judged these days. Other parents talk behind our backs, critiquing the way our child acts, performs in school, etc. There is a certain type of nosy, competitive, busybody mom that loves to point out any wrongdoing of anybody else's kids (not her OWN, of course). That is most likely the ugly mom you all have encountered, but she also makes other parents defensive.
If you walk up to a parent in an accusatory tone, they may jump to the conclusion that you're THAT type of person, just trying to get their kids into trouble or condemn them as parents. But if you handle it respectfully, without sounding judgmental, a reasonable parent should be grateful.
lovelysoul at October 23, 2009 7:14 AM
"Parents who can't grasp this therefore assume that every criticism of their child is either a lie or an attack on the PARENT."
Lenona, that's precisely the attitude I see, and I never understood it! My sister is her daughter's best friend, and her daughter can do no wrong. It seems to be endemic in my sister's age group,her friends and the mothers of my niece's classmates. Anytime anyone tells them anything about their kids, they shoot the messenger. 'Not my kid!' 'Who the hell do you think you are?'followed with 'You wouldn't do anything like that, would you dear?' to the child. It drives me crazy.
_________________
I suspect, unfortunately, that it's a vicious circle - many people DO assume that if the neighbor's kid did something bad, it must be something the parent did wrong.
Do enjoy Rosemond's site - and books. He can get smug at times, but for the most part, I consider him to be pretty close to an "old-fashioned liberal," though he'd probably hate that. That is, he's not as conservative as some would prefer.
lenona at October 23, 2009 1:29 PM
Well, I had an opportunity to test this last night, as I was out of town, and my daughter, who was supposed to be staying with a friend, snuck home and attempted to throw a party at our house (it's homecoming week and the game was last night).
My neighbor caught it right away - just as most kids were pulling up in the driveway - and he called me, and I told him that I wanted every kid's name and parent's phone number. After he threatened to call the cops, the kids (at least the ones he caught) began reluctantly coughing up phone numbers.
So, I spoke with probably 10 or 12 parents last night around 10 pm. Most believed their kids were at the movies after the game, although one kid had actually told his mom the truth about where he was going (not that it was unchaperoned). Nobody became accusatory. One boy's parents came and immediately took away his silver camero. They said it would be a loooong time before he was ever allowed to drive it again. The rest picked up their kids and imposed various other punishments. My daughter is grounded for at least a month. Every parent thanked me for letting them know.
Only one parent did not punish her child. She's one of these ex-hippie, free-thinker types. Apparently, she felt the whole thing was "overblown". They weren't drinking or anything. When I called her, she kind of laughed, and said "Bless their hearts, they try to sneak around and do stuff, but they need to get BETTER at it." When she picked up her daughter, she said something similar to my daughter - like, your main mistake is that you're not very good at this whole lying business.
That's a ridiculous parent, but I really believe she's a minority based on my eventful evening. Most parents really seem to be doing the right thing - punishing their children and not blaming the messenger. Of course, I was not accusatory. How could I be? I approached it sensitively, in a "teens will be teens" kind of way, not that anyone was a "bad" parent.
lovelysoul at October 24, 2009 8:55 AM
Just wanted to clarify what I last said about Rosemond:
He does not believe in trying to micromanage teenagers - just managing them.
He does not consider it a big deal if kids go to school dressed in, say, clashing colors such as blue and green, *so long as the teacher doesn't complain.* (Again, this is the KID's foolish decision, not the parent's.)
He does not feel that teens should go to college against their will just because it's the parents' desire.
He does not necessarily advocate spanking. ("The only question is, does a particular punishment stop the bad behavior from recurring, or not?")
He does not believe in dividing chores by gender.
He does not believe it's wrong not to have children at all.
(However, he DOES more or less believe that parents are somewhat irresponsible if they are not actively Christian or Jewish.)
lenona at October 24, 2009 11:02 AM
must check , for special offer
Treddyrhydrom at June 12, 2011 3:35 AM
Leave a comment