Ever notice that the people who send emails like that and make stupid comments like "you were a kid once" and "you just don't know how haaaard it is" (um, yeah I do, that's why I don't have any) are usually the same people who absolutely SUCK at parenting? Your email buddy there apparently has all kinds of time to tell you to fuck off precisely because he's not off doing "the most important job in the world", aka raising his kid to be a productive member of society.

You're right - one kid is too many for that guy.

Holy Crap. Yes, this is a bit controversial of a subject, but I can't believe it's bringing out such hatred! There must be so many people out there who simply can't form an argument. They here an opinion they don't like, and all they can come up with is profanity and insults. Please don't ever write an Op-Ed piece about your views on single mothers - you'll need to hire a bodyguard.

Damn, Ann you beat me. It's true-people don't seem to realize they're raising future adults. Some folks act like good manners and self-control will just magically appear when the kid reaches a certain age.

And I'm not being a childless know-it-all here, I started researching child-care experts yesterday while all the hoo-ha was/is going on. And it all comes down to Parents Have To Teach Their Little Cherubs To Behave! If you were never taught yourself, than you probably won't bother to learn. You'll be too busy sending hateful e-mails to Amy.

Another one from the don't hold me accountable crowd.

Unfortunately this attitude is getting more and more pervasive in our society.

Agree with all of the above. I cannot tell you how nauseated my boss and his wife make me with their approach to parenting. Oh little Johnny had a meltdown so we stopped the entire world so he could decompress. Excuse me, I thought little Johnny was 3...and he runs the lives of 2 forty-somethings?

The best part was when they dropped of their then 4 year old at a party and the hostess had the audacity to send them an Email explaining everything their darling had done to ruin the party and best of all, called them out for leaving her at the party alone. In her words, "Who leaves a 4 year old alone at a party?" She is my hero!

I have 2 girls, age 16 and 26. Not only did I raise them to behave, I taught them that someday they would be raising children of their own, and that I expected to be able to visit my grandchildren without getting a migraine.

I'm pretty sure I got thru, I've seen them get compliments on their behavior, and once I saw the eldest scruff a cousin and make him appologize to his mother for swearing at her.

Bottom line, yes, my children did misbehave at times, and when they did they faced the consequences. When they were good, they were rewarded. I worked hard, and so did they. Anyone who would rather spew anonymous vitriol than work on their child is a lazy S.O.B. who can't take responsibility for their own actions and will raise their kid to be the same way.(oh dear, did I type that out loud?)

P.S. Amy, I describe my form of parenting as the "Benevolent Dictatorship", and told my girls they got to join the representative republic at 18, when they could vote :)

"Welcome to "parenting." I'm sensing a need to move to out-of-the-way rural areas when all the results of it come of age."

Oh, yeah. Right. Amy in the country. That'll be happening Real Soon Now.

My parents taught us restaurant manners at home. We'd pretend to be out at a nice place, and had to behave as if we were. It was called something like Fancy Restaurant Night, and was fun as I recall.

My sister and I were proud of the fact we could be taken out without a lot of fuss and bother. It probably helped that my mother said no only one time. If you got a no from her and persisted in whatever behavior prompted the no in the first place, things got progressively worse.

A few years back, I was at a large, local furniture store with a friend. We saw my boss, his wife, and their three children in the store and said hello to them. The three boys were acting like holy terrors - running around, climbing and jumping on the furniture, and just generally acting like howler monkeys on crack.

When I saw my boss at work the next week, he brought it up, saying 'The boys were pretty rambunctious that day.' I said, 'Yeah, did you give them caffeine or something?' He replied, 'No. We don't allow them to jump on the furniture at home, but we tell them it's okay when they are in a furniture store.' I think his whole reason for bringing it up was to try and say that his children were normally better-behaved, at home. But that comment - it's okay to ruin other people's stuff, but not ours? Wow, great parenting.

@KarenW Yes, this is a bit controversial of a subject

What in the world is controversial about manners?

It is very disturbing that someone could become so insulted by your thought process that kids should be taught to behave that they tell you to fuck off or insult your looks. I have 3 kids. They're not perfect. They've had their moments that made me cringe. They were held accountable though and taught to behave in public and be responsible for their behavior. I'm not claiming to be the perfect mother or have the perfect children, but people without kids and even people with kids have a right to move about the world and not be disturbed by bad behavior on a regular basis. A kid starts a tantrum? Remove it. You want to condone that behavior? Do it in the privacy of your own home at the expense of your own ears and peace of mind. Seems pretty simple.

Well, there are two very different ways of looking at the mom on the plane incident. Some see a woman who may have been trying to do her best to control an unhappy toddler (who, let's face it, cannot be forced to shut up instantly, even by the best parent). The woman was then cruelly booted off the airplane by the uncaring child-hating staff. Others see a woman who sat there like an idiot while her little monster screamed and screamed, not only annoying everyone but preventing the airline staff from doing their job. I still don't know if she should have been removed from the airplane or not. I almost think you would have to have been there to know for sure. I'm leaning in favor of the airline, since reading that the mom didn't feed her son before the flight (duh!) But toddlers do have tantrums. It doesn't automatically mean he/she has bad parents.

I had a tantrum in a store once. Once.

Mom didn't bring me to a store for a month.

Lesson learned.

Brilliant blog. I love it.
My wife and I have no children and that's our choice. My favourite saying is "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" (Breed).
We have 2 particular television channels in Australia. They both have a morning program and a nightly program that disguise themselves as news + current affairs. All their stories go something like this - "What every parent needs to know" or "20 things in the home that can hurt your kids". It just goes on and on and on.
News flash people - Not everyone has kids. Those of us that don't are quite content to be without them. Thank god we have other channels to choose from.
Lastly, if my mother said no to something that would be the end of it. If you wanted to go further, then my father came into the equation. Enough said. Manners were taught to all my brothers and sisters at an early age.

Amy's right, some children are a pain in the ass and they grow up to be pain-in-the-ass adults.

We see them every day...people that park in 'no parking' zones so they don't have to walk far to go into a store, no matter than everyone else has to drive around them.

And Another Thing: I hadn't really thought about the theme from some of the people sending e-mails, etc. That's the idea that expecting children to behave equals a life lived alone and miserable.

I'm thinking these parents are afraid their children will abandon them if they make them mind now. Wow, more fear.

Don't worry guys. You'll have them for longer than you want them. I'll be reading about you in one of those "my kid won't leave but he/she won't help out and he/she is 42 and still wants me to pay all the bills--whatever shall I do?" letters.

Well, I gotta go make pie and gougeres. (If that's how it's spelled) Whatever side you're on, have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Amy, you are right - I too would have felt extremely sorry in this situation and I would have been apologizing, and probably asking the others around me for help on how to calm my kid down. But like your parents, I never took my kids on a plane at that age. Not my idea of a fun vacation!

By the way, several weeks ago, Lenore had a similar story on Free Range Kids, about a mom with an screaming 18 month old who got kicked off the city bus http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/mom-forced-off-bus-for-crying-toddler/
I know I felt worse for that mother because: 1. This was her only means of transportation, not just a fun trip, 2. She got dropped off in the middle of nowhere with grocery bags and a crying toddler, 3. 18 months old is still a baby as far as I'm concerned, not a child you can discipline. What do you think?

Amy, just thought I'd let you know that you're not just causing havoc among indulgent idiot parents in the US. Your column has been run today in the online papers that belong to the Fairfax group in Australia and it's one of the most read items for the day. Number one at the moment in fact:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-skys-the-limit-when-it-comes-to-feral-children-20091125-jrse.html

Oops, the child in that article was 20 months old. Not a big difference.

Amy

If I was that age and did that I can tell you without a doubt that it would NOT have been my parents that would have died on the spot.

Wow, Red, you sure stirred up a swirl of whytoo-peration.
I'm with you on this one but can't help wonder about the parenting styles of the zygote bearers of Senator "Liar Liea" or those who put a Hitler moustache on a photo of Obama or Glenn Beck or others of that hate-spewing ilk. Probably brought up wiith good Christian values to be decent God-fearing citizens and love their neighbor.
Think I'll go potty on a plane myself now.

GMan writes: Amy, just thought I'd let you know that you're not just causing havoc among indulgent idiot parents in the US. Your column has been run today in the online papers that belong to the Fairfax group in Australia and it's one of the most read items for the day. Number one at the moment in fact:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/the-skys-the-limit-when-it-comes-to-feral-children-20091125-jrse.html

Ah, Amy. Despite the loss of papers, your star is on the rise. I hope you won't forget your support base. When you have your own talk show, you'll have to bring us all on so we can yell at each other in real life.

Creative Loafing will regret the day they dropped you in favor of Dan Savage (yeech!). They'll be asking themselves, "What the hell were we thinking?"

Rude jackass writes: Are you that old and lonely that you have no patience for human kind. I understand, but I simply think you just need a stiff rogering from a good man (or woman) and let off some of that middle age tension.

What the fuck is a "rogering" anyway? (Or did I just answer my own question?)

Anyhow, about all this hostility, it's about an influx of parental entitlement. "No, I get to do everything I did before I had a child. And I should be allowed to enjoy them just as I did before I had a child. I'm entitled to dine in fine restaurants and if my kid acts up, I shouldn't have to disrupt my own dining experience to keep him quiet."

Copied and pasted my other comment from the previous column as it belongs here too:

Well, I guess that no matter how clearly we make the point, some people will still absolutely refuse to accept that children are the responsibility of their parents and it is the parents job to minimise the upleasantness their child causes. All that is being asked of anyone in this forum is exactly what I would do in the same circumstances - do your best to parent. It is your job.

I think it has been made very clear that nobody blames the child - and again and again it has been pointed out that this is only one small example of a much bigger social problem. Again and again it has been noted that a parent who is trying to fix the problem at their own inconvenience will receive (at least from every post I have read) sympathy and assistance - but still a small group choose to nit pick and pretend this sort of thing is no big deal.

Perhaps you, personally, don't care if loud, invasive children misbehave around you while their parents refuse to do their job - but many, many others do and our rights and beliefs are just as relevant as the vocal minority who are willing to put up and shut up.

However, I have come to one conclusion: those who cannot or will not see that everyone has rights (not just lazy over-indulgent parents of badly behaved children) are those who themselves were (or still are) lazy parents. I would wager that most of those who don't "get it" have inflicted, or are now inflicting the results of their lazy and over-indulgent parenting on everyone else.

Of course such a person is going to take umbrage at being called out on their poor parenting, and there is absolutely no point in arguing with them, we just have to force them to do the right thing since they obviously refuse to do so voluntarily.

A good precedent was set by the Southwest staff, hopefully this will start a new trend. When people realise their lazy, anti-social behaviour will negatively affect themselves, not just the rest of us, maybe then they will do the right thing.

I feel genuinely sorry for children with lazy, over-indulgent, blinkered parents. The poor little souls grow up unhappy, sometimes become bullies and are usually socially isolated - nobody wants to tolerate poor behaviour, not even other children. When they are not taught from very young how to do the right thing they have no chance to learn. It is not their fault, and sadly then it is only the start of their own and society's problems with them.

As for the rest of it, it seems the author has tapped into a huge pool of people who agree with her. I reckon if my behaviour was anti-social and unpleasant I would be scared and angry now too.

Good luck to everyone. As one imperfect parent (but one who tries my very best to raise sociable, empathetic, well mannered children), happy parenting - and I only wish for you all exactly what you deserve.

RE: story on child in plane. Amy I read this article in Australia. Here's a thought; if and when you have a child let's follow you around for a year from say when your child is 20 months to 32 months old and see how well you cope with the demands of a little one.
My bet is we'd see a lot love, frustration, tears and a melting of, from what i read in this article a very regimented, straight and uptight character. Come on Amy. When was the last time you did something to fulfil the need of unbridled joy?

antony ussher: If Amy did become a parent, I have no doubt that she would practice what she preaches, and if her little one did start to act up, she'd do her best to quiet him.

Amy's problem is not with children who act up -- children do that. The problem is parents who ignore it and expect everyone else to put up with their underparented brats.

I too wonder where all the hate mail comes from, it seems to me that manners and respect are kind of an easily championed cause. It's not like Amy is asking every one to fore go using electricity to save the environment or sign up with the military to fight in Afghanistan. "Be respectful" should not be met with a whirlwind of absolute hatred.

Anyways, I gather that most of it has to do with your writing style, Amy. Its fairly aggressive, very satirical. Not complaining, for my part, I love it. Not saying you should change, by any means. In some ways, there is a "somebody's got to do it" feel with said subject. But when you don't pull your punches, there's going to be somebody who reacts defensively and angrily, and since some of those people will be assholes, defensive angry asshole email will abound. Probably just comes with the territory.

Patrick hit the nail right on the head:

"Anyhow, about all this hostility, it's about an influx of parental entitlement. "No, I get to do everything I did before I had a child. And I should be allowed to enjoy them just as I did before I had a child. I'm entitled to dine in fine restaurants and if my kid acts up, I shouldn't have to disrupt my own dining experience to keep him quiet."

This is EXACTLY what I see happening far too often in my neck of the woods. Parents think they are entitled to act as they did before they had kids and we're all supposed to just suck it up, deal with it, and beam indulgently as their demon spawn rip apart the dining room of a $100 a plate restaurant while they blissfully ignore the entire thing.

I was NOT raised this way. At all. My sister and I had really good parents who taught us to behave in public and not act like monkeys on crack. Sadly, my sister seemed to have forgotten this when she had her own kids, because when they were little they acted like spoiled brats everywhere they went, and she allowed it. The worst example was when they were about 3 and 5 and were running around the FUNERAL HOME as we had a viewing for our father. When I finally told them to knock it off, a) the look on their faces at actually being told no by someone was priceless and b) my sister shot me one of those "how dare you correct my children" looks. Seriously.

When your own mother looks at you and says "I didn't raise you girls that way" and pointedly looks at her granddaughters, you have to wonder what the hell happened there.

Thank God I live 1300 miles away from them, or I doubt my sister and I would be speaking today. There's no way I could have kept my mouth shut for the last 13 years.

As a librarian, working in public spaces, I have noticed patron behavior getting more and more rude, loud, and sometimes obscene. People act as if they are in their own living room. We have played into this in order to rope in customers at any cost. A lot of adults let it all hang out, so why should we think they are going to scold their children in public for bad behavior/

"When your own mother looks at you and says "I didn't raise you girls that way" and pointedly looks at her granddaughters, you have to wonder what the hell happened there."

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that parenting norms have indeed changed, and are more lax than the way many of us were raised, because a whole lot of that was deemed to be unnecessarily harsh and punitive.

For instance, the "clean your plate" rule, as Julie mentioned in another thread, has been (rightfully) dispensed with. Punishing kids for not eating EVERYTHING on their plate, even if it turned their stomachs, was finally recognized as an overly harsh rule that did nothing to shape how the child would grow up and relate to food (except in the negative).

But older people still give younger parents dirty looks if they let their child choose what and how much they eat. "That's not the way WE did it". If you don't spank, but use other, just as effective, and child psychologist approved methods, it's still, "That's not the way WE did it."

Well, a lot of what they did was wrong, and by today's standards, and after much more research into child psychology, some of it was deemed abusive, and, at the very least, it was discovered that one did not need to punish a 3 yr old within an inch of his/her life to end up with a fine, productive adult. A lot of the early childhood punishments, particularly, are now viewed as extreme and unproductive.

So you have an enormous disconnect between how we were raised and how new parents today are taught to parent. It's not as strict or hardline (and borderline sadistic) as what was once expected.

This still doesn't mean it should be inconsiderate or disruptive. But I think what many parents are responding to is the throwback, almost 1950's mentality of let's be hardasses and take away kid's birthday parties and kick them off of planes...or, better yet, not allow them on planes or in public.

Those who still believe in this old-style hardass approach fervently believe it's the *only* way to raise a decent, respectful child, but those of us who have already completed our childrearing, using more modern approaches, know this isn't true. It's an outdated, overly punitive approach that does not necessarily lead to a better outcome. Our children still turned out well without being mistreated or punished over every single infraction.

Is this new, laxer approach often misapplied? Yes. There are some parents who think looser means allowing complete chaos. They are misguided practioners - just as those, in past decades, who went to the other extreme with strictness were.

"For instance, the 'clean your plate' rule, as Julie mentioned in another thread, has been (rightfully) dispensed with. Punishing kids for not eating EVERYTHING on their plate, even if it turned their stomachs, was finally recognized as an overly harsh rule that did nothing to shape how the child would grow up and relate to food (except in the negative)."

______________________

Um, if it's not abusive for parents to insist on the "clean your plate" rule when the family cannot afford to waste a penny, why is it abusive for more affluent parents? For that matter, if a kid hates all food that isn't junk food, what alternative do you suggest before the kid reaches 300 pounds?

I don't remember ever leaving food on my plate. I don't remember what the penalty would have been, but I know it wouldn't have been worth trying to break the rule. If I really hated a certain food, the rule was I only had to eat the mercifully SMALL portion that was SERVED to me. That's how I learned not only to enjoy more than one or two foods in my childhood, but how to be polite and respect the effort made by whoever was cooking - whether at my house or at other people's houses.

Dr. Rosemond has a good, simple, unemotional solution - only one small spoonful from each entree goes on the plate. Second helpings come only when the plate is clean. If the kid refuses to eat the one green bean (or whatever is the hated entree), the kid goes to bed hungry. Clearly, no argument or yelling from the parent is needed. (This also helps a parent avoid the issue of "no meat before you eat your vegetables" - the only object is the clean plate. Doing otherwise can make vegetables all the more unappealing.)

I do not know where I fall on the realm of parenting. I suppose one day you could have seen me with my family and thought that I was the best parent in the world. Other days, forget it - I was horrible.

On more than one occasion, people have come up to me and complemented me on the family and told me that my boys were one of the best behaved children they had ever seen.

On the other hand, my youngest son is quirky, to say the least. He has started crying and throwing a fit because people that he didn't know were looking at him and smiling. Of course, then more people stared and he went more and more out of control. Of course I have been mortified. The more attention, I give him, the worse it gets. He has been diagnosed with ADHD, vocal and motor tics, and a neurological anomaly. I suspect that is is on the autism spectrum, but is bright enough to be atypical. He can be the perfect child, and then the unexpected happens - boom -he is over the edge. I learned that certain places that have music, flashing lights, etc. tend to set him off.

He no longer goes out very much. I hope that this is not a disservice to him. He is fourteen now. How can he learn social skills when he is relegated to a solitary life?

I have not always had a babysitter available. I am so sorry if your world has been disturbed by my child, but really, life goes on. I still need to leave the house, to go grocery shopping, etc. Give a parent a break. A kind word goes a long way.

While I do understand that it is the job of the parent to raise polite, kind offspring, I can't help but feel a wee bit bad for this mother on the plane. I'm a mother of three great kids and had a similar situation befall me on an four hour flight. There was never the threat of being booted off, but my one year old began screeching like a injured gibbon twenty minutes before landing and nothing I could do for him would make it better. Turns out he was in excrutiating pain from the pressure(ears)but the murderous looks I got were enough to leave me shaken for the entirety of my trip. Sometimes even the BEST children have an episode, but I'm more likely to see some drunken idiot stumble up the aisle and trip into the drink cart on a flight than a hear a kid screaming for the duration.

Just because something makes us angry thinking about it in adulthood doesn't mean it was abusive. A lot of stuff feels "abusive" when you're powerless to do anything about it. Let's look at the end result: Did our parents raise productive people who respect others, support ourselves, and take care of our own children, if we have them? Then maybe the fact that they made us eat all of our carrots isn't so bad. I'm not a psycho because my mother swatted my ass a few times as a child. (I'm a psycho for other reasons.)

We need to give people more credit than that. We are not fragile pieces of china, ready to shatter at the slightest loud noise. We evolved under harsher conditions, both physical and psychological, than most of us will ever have to know. I'd like to see parents less afraid that every "wrong" move will scar their kids for life, like their kids will lead perfect lives if only they connect all the dots in just the right order.

Kids are different and respond to different things. For some, spanking works best. For others, the time-out corner works best. I honestly don't care how anyone feels about their childhood. I care about whether you are ramming your cart into my ankles at the grocery store.

Monica - hear, hear!

There's a lot of walking wounded from previous eras. Sure, people are functional and can survive and reproduce, but that doesn't mean the childrearing practices were good.

A lot of men, particularly, seem to have suffered terribly because of overly harsh "discipline". A friend of mine, raised by a super strict, military father, goes into a deep depression over the holidays every year because of some childhood disciplinary trauma that he can't even talk about. He's almost 60 years old! That isn't a parental success story, in my book.

Today's parents have a trickier task. They're trying to raise fully-realized individuals. That means allowing self-expression, while also maintaining limits. That's a fine line, and it would certainly be easier just to say, "Shut up, or I'll get the belt!" but it's not healthier.

When done well, the ulimate result, as I believe I've achieved, are children that are far more self-assured, independent, articulate, well-rounded, and emotionally mature than previous generations often produced.

Everyone was telling me how great my kids were last night, at the Thanskgiving gathering. They were able to converse easily and intelligently with the adults, helped out in various ways, and were just all-around delightful.

And this was achieved by NOT being very punitive when they were young children, even though we went through some childhood incidents where they behaved badly.

That's a hard concept for old-school proponents to accept - that kids who may seem like "brats" when they're little (because they talk too much, question their parents, express their opinions, etc) - can still grow up to be great people, but it's true.

Controlling by fear only gets a parent so far. Controlling by reason may take longer to kick in, but it's the better method...because then you get children who not only want to behave, of their own accord, but understand why they should.

Today's parents have a trickier task. They're trying to raise fully-realized individuals. That means allowing self-expression, while also maintaining limits.

This kind of tightrope walk is impossible to achieve perfectly. Parents must be strict enough, but not too strict. Loving enough, but not overprotective. Allow their kids freedom, but not be neglectful. It's a wonder how any of us gets through childhood without slaughtering puppies.

Lovelysoul, congratulations on finding a parenting technique that works for your children. But that's my point: There's no single technique that works for all children everywhere. I prefer to trust parents to know what works for their children, and for the most part, we do not all end up tragically wounded figures. There are a lot of assholes in the world, though.

The only way I can judge whether an adult or child has been civilized is how they behave in public. Judging the state of their souls is not something I'm qualified to do.

Once again, the main point is being missed - I can only assume deliberately. The only personal incidences of parenting I talked about were when I removed myself to a train toilet when my infant would not stop screaming (and sat there for an hour till he calmed) and the fact that I did not take him to a movie till he was four because he was not ready to sit still and watch till then. There is a reason I didn't give you all chapter and verse how I parent - it is not cogent to the argument here.

The attempt to side track this into an argument about what is the better parenting style is another attempt to say "parenting is so very hard, I choose to do whatever I want in your personal space".

Parent whatever way you choose, but DO NOT inflict the results on other people. If you choose to believe that badly behaved toddlers will turn out to be well behaved adults, good for you. In the meantime, quite simply, "Don't bring your children out in public before they're public-ready".

Again, and after multiple times, I'm not saying that children should be disruptive in public. They should not. Parents need to do all they can to limit any disruption, whether their child has special needs or not.

What I object to is the mischaracterization (and, more precisely, character assassination) of both parent and child. The projection into the future that this child you witnessed, probably for only a few minutes, and without knowing what learning disabilities he/she may have, is destined to turn out badly, and that the parent, who you do not know, is a prime example of "non-parenting".

Furthermore, I'm disheartened that borderline sadistic parents, who apparently can't use proper disciplinary methods, so are reduced to the extreme measure (after many apparent lapses), of cancelling a 6 year old's birthday party - and, as someone else pointed out, inconveniencing ALL the other parents that bought presents and took time (stolen time) from their schedules to attend the party - are somehow made out to be heroes in your column.

I realize your job is to be provocative, Amy, and you do that well, but you are lauding the wrong parents and potentially maligning the right parents. That may sell books, but I think some of the criticism is warranted, though I think any criticism of your looks is absurd, since you are obviously a very attractive woman.

Just read this from LS (sorry but I can’t get on board with the idea of calling anybody lovely soul, that is the sort of nickname only someone else should give you, not one you should choose for yourself, so LS will do for me):

” Again, and after multiple times, I'm not saying that children should be disruptive in public. They should not. Parents need to do all they can to limit any disruption, whether their child has special needs or not”

So, I went back through and had a look, thinking maybe I had her all wrong. This is a sampling of what LS said (in this and the previous column on the same topic). I did not find anything, anywhere which said children should not be disruptive in public or that parents should do all they can to limit any disruption. Found lots of excuse making for poor parenting though:

>You all expect too much. She's supposed to be calming her child, while also apologizing to you, while also dealing with the flt attendent? How would you propose she accomplish all this to YOUR delicate satisfaction? The poor mother had her hands full.

>Even a 2 yr old? They are not developmentally ready to behave like stepford kids, even if that were preferable

>If they're going to be kicking parents off planes for this, there should at least be some notice or sign at the gate. Maybe there's a little muzzle we could buy before boarding.

>That's why I'm never too quick to blame the parent. Often, they just have a high-strung, temperamental kid, through no fault of their own.

>Truth is, we really don't know what happened here, yet some are willing to crucify the mother.

>This causes me to question the flt attendent's judgment and actions more than the mother's.

>Still, I admit to worrying a bit about my friends without children, as they age. It does seem to me that it could be quite lonely. My best friend has no children, and I wouldn't say she's particularly happy. All she has is her husband of 30 years,

Then I considered this statement: “What I object to is the mischaracterization (and, more precisely, character assassination) of both parent and child”.

Again, I went back and re-read the posts, in particular what the author had written in her original piece. Nowhere did I find any mischaracterisation or anything like a character assassination. Perhaps LS would care to elaborate?

Wow, you went to a lot of trouble there, Alison, taking my comments out of context and conveniently not using any where I have, indeed, supported the idea that children should be quieted, distracted, calmed down, if they become disruptive in public. Including the post about my mentally-challenged brother and how my parents and I are considerate people and wouldn't allow him to disrupt anyone's dinner, "at least for more than a few moments while we get him outside" (which is how I think parents should handle their children). Not to mention that I just reiterated the same position above.

If you read all the other posts in those threads, besides mine, you would see that the parents, especially the mom on the plane, have been labeled in all sorts of terrible ways - selfish, uncaring, unapologetic, egotistical - and so forth. All because her 20 month old BABY cried on a plane. And, the poor child was not spared either - he was even called a "devil spawn" by somebody, so I picked that up as an example of the extremism involved here.

I just don't understand how people can presume so much about a woman/child they don't know, caught up in an incident where we still don't have all the facts.

And I lost respect for the flt attendant for offering Benadryl to a 2 yr old. That was what that comment referred to. I'm pretty sure she wasn't supposed to do that, and if the airline bent over backwards for this mom, it's probably because they know their crew acted (overreacted) inappropriately.

My point is that ALL parents, if they're honest, know that their children have misbehaved and caused disruption at some time or another, probably on many occassions. Young children are unpredictable. It can happen to anybody. This self-righteous beating up on the parent, who is already having probably her worst day ever, seems needlessly meanspirited.

All anyone can do is try their best to calm their child, limit the disruption, and - if they can, apologize - but this poor mom was even ridiculed because she didn't kiss everyone's ass satisfactorily enough while being thrown off the plane. It just seems to me that the parent can't win, no matter what, in some people's minds.

Actually LS, I went to a lot of trouble to try to find posts to support what you had claimed, to no avail. Did you make these remarks in a different ferent column which I have not read? Perhaps a later column to the one in which you were posting.

I did not take anything out of context because, as I stated, it was a sampling and all of your posts (at least as I read them in two columns) supported that sampling.

As I stated, I did not see at any time, let alone multiple times, anywhere that you stated "I'm not saying that children should be disruptive in public. They should not. Parents need to do all they can to limit any disruption, whether their child has special needs or not." Again did you perhaps quote this in a later column? If you did so in this or an earlier column, I must have missed it.

I also did not see where the author mischaracterised or assassinated the character of anybody. Perhaps you meant other posters and you would like to be more clear?

Apologies for typo. Different, not different ferent obviously.

"If I were disrupted, for longer than 10 mins, I'd have no qualms saying something politely to the parent. I'd ask them to please take their child outside. But I don't recall ever having to do that because usually the parent is scrambling out the door pretty quickly, as I did with my children."

"As long as a parent responds quickly to a disruption, and tries, within the limits of the situation (airplane, bus) to be as non-disruptive as possible, I cut them slack."

That's just two quotes from one thread. I don't have time to go through all of them, but I think it's clear from my comments as a whole - plus the last, very succinct comment I made on this thread - that I am NOT suggesting that parents just sit there and let their child be disruptive. You can't find any comments where I've said that's acceptable because I haven't.

Once again, just a simple question, are these from this thread and an earlier one? Or a later one perhaps?

Yes, you did make yourself very clear from your comments as a whole, at least on the two threads I have read, as shown by the samples I quoted.

Well it is extremely late here, so I will have to bid you au revoir LS.

If those quotations you just shared were indeed made on this or an earlier thread I must have simply not seen them, and therefore must offer you an apology. Although they in no way constitute multiple times (as per "and after multiple times, I'm not saying that children should be disruptive in public”) they certainly differ from the vast majority of what you had posted and which I had sampled.

Although your overall tone was certainly conveyed perfectly by the sampling I offered, had I read these two (not multiple) postings I would not have been so surprised by, and unwilling to accept, your assertion that you had stated this on multiple occasions.

However, if this is not the case, if these were indeed later comments, then I would like to believe that you were not trying to be so misleading, but simply had posted so many times on so many threads that you forgot on which thread and at what time you decided to tone down your statements to make yourself more accessible to the majority who disagree with you. Perhaps you just forgot when you decided to throw in one or two comments like “parents need to do all they can to limit any disruption” to tone your overall message down.

Again, if they are later comments, it seems to me that you are now angry that I have brought your misleading statement to your attention, but perhaps you should simply make more accurate statements in future.

If you have had a change of heart, based on the many comments you have read which disagreed with your viewpoint, all to the good. However, to try to pretend that all along you held this belief and that all along you have stated it (in order, as far as I can see, to make yourself seem more reasonable and believable), is frankly disingenous.

It's amazing the amount of passion this subject brings out in her readers but I do get the basic gist of what everyone is saying. Some kids aren't always ready for prime time and occasionally even the most delightful tot can have a full blown Damien moment in public. God forbid you and your little monster are in public when this catastrophe occurs because all eyes are on you so prepare to be judged. I try to use common sense and gage my tots moods, sugar levels and lack of sleep before heading out on any excursion. Sometimes it's a home run and others it's like a scene from the exorcist. That's generally when I cut and run leaving the festivites behind. I don't think anyone believes that kids should or could be kept behind closed doors and out of public places but venturing out does occasionally require a back up escape plan. I made the point to Lenore S. (freerangekids)that a screaming toddler at 30,000 feet is even less fun for the parent than it is for the other passengers.