Joe Santley Is A Much Better Person Than I Am
Gregg and I just got back from a lovely Thanksgiving with my neighbors (and their darling, loving, well-behaved young children), and I found this e-mail waiting for me:
In a message dated 11/26/09 4:50:41 PM, joesantley@gmail.com writes:
You are outrageous. I am sorry for you that you are proud of being the most hated woman in LA. You obviously have no memory- I am sure that you have at some time during childhood mugged or stolen from many people-in the form of attention by crying.... as a writer- you are worthless. A one sided righteous jerk off. You are part of the problem in this world- In fact just looking at your ugly face in your blog- which I was forced to look at to get your stupid email address- is cause for a legal action if I go by your philosophy! The damage that has been done to me just by looking at your ugly mug is far more damage than a screaming child that just wants to go see his daddy. You are truly an Ugly Person- Through and through- A true Bitch- But maybe "bitch" is not the right word. Because at least a Bitch gets F&^%&^$&^. Looking at you -you are probably don't have kids because you cant have kids because no real man would touch such a soulless hag. Go F yourself.
I do find it hilarious that a guy who writes such an ugly e-mail (perhaps he's incapable of rational argument?) prissies up on the words "fuck" and "fucked." Go for it, Joe -- come on, let even the naughty words out!
I didn't say that to Joe. Just this:
Dear Joe, I see I have much to learn about kindness and respectful disagreement from you. Thanks so much for your thoughts. -Amy Alkon
Here's a little something I cut from the "The Underparented Child" chapter of my book before publication (went and searched for it in an earlier version of the manuscript because so many people seem to be wondering about my childhood):
I asked my dad whether my two sisters and I ever threw screaming fits as children. He said "No, not after you were little babies," and added, "We always talked to you girls as adults, and expected you to act like adults when we took you to restaurants or other adult places. You were children, so you didn't always do the right thing. But, we'd say, 'Girls, that's not done here,' and you'd listen."
But, back to Joe Santley's e-mail, let's get this straight -- I am:
"...truly an Ugly Person- Through and through- A true Bitch- But maybe "bitch" is not the right word. Because at least a Bitch gets F&^%&^$&^..."
...Because it's my opinion that it's inconsiderate to bring children on a plane for non-emergency trips when you can't be sure they won't scream the whole way and bother the other passengers?
Here's my kind of parent, my friend Hillary Johnson, from a passage in my book:
When my son Tyrone was about a year old, my ex and I found ourselves in one of those binds -- we really needed to just go to a restaurant (tired, cranky), but we had an equally tired, cranky one-year-old. Our solution? The coffee shop at the bowling alley! Surely we would be within the polite decibel range in such environs.... well, we were, until Tyro braced his pudgy little legs against the lip of the formica table and kicked it over, spraying icewater and french fries in a 20 foot radius. That was our last restaurant visit for several years. I simply arranged my life otherwise for that period of time. I found that staying home was a great way to avoid stress--for me and the other 10 million inhabitants of LA.
And here, also from my book, is how I feel about my neighbors' kids -- which has everything to do with how they're parented:
Their kids do, on occasion, wake me up seriously early on a Sunday morning, and the little boy is always inventing some new game which involves repeatedly banging some hard object on the paved walk between our houses when I'm trying to write. For me, what makes all the difference is hearing their parents say, "Shhh, come over and play in our yard, Amy might be sleeping." The fact that they care makes me respond to the BANG! BANG! BANG!-ing with a head-shake and a laugh, then open a window and remind the little boy that I'm an old bag who needs her beauty sleep.
UPDATE:
I just heard from Joe:
In a message dated 11/27/09 4:44:28 AM, joesantley@gmail.com writes:
I appogise for what i wrote. To be honest, i went so far into absurdity to show you how ridiculous we humans can be- When really all we want is equality and respect. I am sure that you are not a bad person- you took time to read and ponder my thoghts- even as cras as they were. I have a son with Autism, and I hope that if you ever decide to have children, that they are blessed and do not have to suffer as my son does. You would quckly learn that the things you wrote hold little merit and I am sure that it would be a growth time for you. As for my words...inexcuseable, yet full of passion. I am thankfull that you responded so that I could grow from this exchange as well. Again, I appologise for my reaction. Joe
My response:
Joe, I appreciate the apology, but I suspect you aren't being honest here about this being some calculatedly "absurd" response. That seemed to me to be an impulsive expression -- going after me for my looks (which I have no control over -- I only have control over my behavior).I write about my brilliant friend Sergeant Heather in my book, who leads strangers in public to team up with her when she's out with her autistic son. By the way, I so love her son that I write him letters from the elephants and the cheetahs -- I'm mailing him one today...I'll send you a copy...(have to get the photo on my computer). I photographed it to e-mail it to Heather before he gets it in the mail. I'm really busy, but it means something to me to make him happy, and it takes so little for me to do that.
Heather's son doesn't suffer because she is an amazing parent, with her husband, and she actually has the older children and her daughter feeling that it's not a chore, but just a part of being in their family to care for their autistic 5-year-old son. Her big handsome 16-year-old son, at the 5-year-old's birthday party, totally unprompted by the parents, told the 5-year-old boy it was time to go to the bathroom and took him there. It's important to Heather and her husband that there will be people in place to love him and care for him when they're gone.
Thank you for your reply. Going to download the letter and attach (okay, now attached to this e-mail). PS Her son is an autistic savant -- I got him a flashlight for his birthday so he could make shadow animals and he came over and read me the entire back of the package, which is why he can read the letters I send him. He loves elephants. The cheetahs, he loves, too. Their names (the ones who write to him c/o my mailing address, are named Bob, Kelly, and Frank, and they live in Africa, around the block from the elephants).
Best wishes, -Amy Alkon
The letter to Sergeant Heather's son is below:
Not bad for an evil, child-loathing meanie like me, huh?
P.S. A marvelous book about life on the autism spectrum is Tyler Cowen's Create Your Own Economy: The Path to Prosperity in a Disordered World.
Looks like the West Coast's answer to Willy Loman might be just a *tad* bitter. Perhaps he'll be eaten by sharks while enjoying his midlife crisis on his bitchin' boards?
Kim at November 27, 2009 12:30 AM
Apparently, some of the "parental entitlement" crowd feel just a tad bit threatened. Probably with good reason. Amy's book and article have undoubtedly inspired a few people to assert themselves instead of just sucking it up.
Patrick at November 27, 2009 2:05 AM
What a foul mouth, what a nasty person. How do people like that think that anyone's going to listen to them?
crella at November 27, 2009 2:43 AM
Haven't heard back from Mr. Santley yet (it's a little after 5 am on the West coast -- had to be up at 4 for Wisconsin Public Radio), but I can't wait for his reply.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 5:22 AM
Joe's right about one thing: "at least a Bitch gets F&^%&^$&^" -- I know because last Saturday I brought this Bitch I met home, and man, I F ampersand circumflex percentage ampersand circumflex dollar sign ampersand circumflexed her until she could hardly walk!
But I suspect Joe's just angry because he's been ampersand circumflexed so much he's been left with barely a semicolon.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at November 27, 2009 7:47 AM
Just love that, Gog!
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 8:20 AM
Wow Amy I love that he had an awakening. He admitted his foul knee jerk reaction and took responsibility. That is rare! Most nasty spewing jerks like him never admit it. You handled it brilliantly and with class, as usual. p.s. I don't buy that it was said for theatrics.
Ruby at November 27, 2009 9:08 AM
Nice that he apologised, but he could have written the second email first, if he had to write at all. Most defintitely his first email was a knee jerk reaction. But hey, you got a well-deserved apology from him and maybe he learned a little something. (I'll refrain from commenting on his picture. Those ears, though...)
Flynne at November 27, 2009 9:40 AM
I think your cute.
mikesf at November 27, 2009 10:00 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679323">comment from mikesfThanks, mikesf...that's sweet of you. Try to do the best with what I have, including admitting my own tendencies to jerkishness, and trying to correct them. (I didn't write this book because I have perfect manners -- I just try to recognize and be better in areas where I'm lacking!)
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 10:09 AM
I'm not sure why that guy said you were ugly. You look to have a nice figure ( judging by ur book cover) and I like your long red hair. Without sounding to creepy I like your alabaster tone as well. Even more attractive is your allegiance to good manners. There is no bigger turn off to me than a I'll mannered woman. I love them independent, conservative, passionate, well mannered and womanly.
Ashen at November 27, 2009 10:09 AM
He tells himself it's ok because of the anonymous cloak of the internet. Either that, or he was shit-faced drunk.
Rosemary at November 27, 2009 10:13 AM
A knee-jerk reaction? I don't buy it. Knee-jerk reactions occur as the spontaneous outpouring of unchecked emotion in reaction to some real-life situation. This guy took the time to write an e-mail which consisted of the foulest of foul language and invective--and an extremely personal attack on the looks and character of Amy. No, he knew what he was doing. I don't think he's sorry at all--just that he got caught being an a-hole after Amy's classy response.
Pilgrimsarbour at November 27, 2009 10:19 AM
Is there such a thing as narcissim by proxy? As a childless-by-choice married guy, I've long observed how many parents expect all of us to behave as though the universe centers around the "needs" of their children.
I used to live in Manhattan, where the sidewalks are narrow and crowded and it burned me up when yuppie couples with wide strollers seemed to assume that the rest of us must give them right-of-way. A lot of those strollers were doubles, and the metrosexual daddies seemed to delight in displaying their potency. They all but shouted, "Make way for the Sun King" as the rolled other citizens off the curb.
Pace the loathesome email from Joesantly, I've also observed that parents of autistic children feel an insanely-heightened sense of entitlement.
It's your kid, Joe.
But it's not your universe.
Kenneth at November 27, 2009 10:20 AM
Ah, the time honored crack at Amy looks. There's nothing wrong with ms alkons face, nor figure. Yet everyone seems to think it's the trump card of dissenting argument 101.
I disagree with your position on healthcare, Mr President. Also, you're ugly, and as such, I cannot vote for you.
Give me a break.
Chronotrigger at November 27, 2009 10:33 AM
Amy,
I found out about you from Hot Air, and I loved your LA Times article. My wife and I have two grown daughters, and we were always complimented about how well behaved they were when they were little. The truth was, we followed my parents example; they were told how we expected them to behave before they went anywhere. If they didn't, we wouldn't go out to places that they wanted to go. Plain and simple. When we would go to restaurants, we packed up coloring books and crayons, or books they liked to read. It occupied their time, and kept them interested in something constructive rather than bothering others. They also were placed in a lot of situations in which they interacted with adults. They were treated like little adults, and that was how they were expected to behave.
JoeB at November 27, 2009 10:41 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679331">comment from JoeBThank you, JoeB, both for your parenting and your comment here. When I see parents doing a good job, I often compliment them -- unfortunately, it's become something that's no longer just expected but something to be grateful for.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 10:43 AM
I do confess that as the mother of an autistic kid, and being on the autism spectrum myself, I do tend to read all of Amy's commentary about horrible parents and their loud, rude, obnoxious children as being aimed directly at me. I know that this is far from true, but projection of my own fears about my own parenting and my own (unbelievably loud, impulse-control-challenged) child is my own knee-jerk impulse. I used to get so depressed about how people might view me and my child and just cry for hours.
But in reality, I make the effort, and people respond to that. If my boy has a meltdown in public, I whisk him away, and people look at both of us with smiles and sympathy rather than glares. When he was a baby and made messes with dropped food, I always started to pick it all up, only to be stopped by waiters who graciously told me they would handle it and not to trouble myself. You're totally right that all people want to see is evidence of parenting, not perfect silence and grown-up behavior from kiddies.
Also, jeez Amy, you're gorgeous! I have no idea what these people are on about.
Melissa G at November 27, 2009 10:58 AM
I remember when I was about 3 yrs old and I thru a tantrum at the grocery store and my mom slapped me across the face,I was so humiliated I never acted out in public again(neither did my brother).
And you are a very good looking lady,I've always thought,gotta love redheads,Thanks for everything you do Amy,
Bob
Bobnormal at November 27, 2009 11:03 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679335">comment from Melissa GReally, that's the case, Melissa...that if a mother or father seems to be trying, it makes a huge difference. I can usually tell when a child has some issue - Sergeant Heather has pointed out some of the signs of autism, like tippietoe walking - and I feel for the parents. What gets me, and what's really the subject of my entire book, is the sense of entitlement many people have in their approach to the world. Those who are lax parents are just one set. PS You really have got to read Tyler Cowen's take on autism/the autism spectrum -- if money is tight, it's in the library, take it out. It's one of the books this year that really bowled me over with its insights, and it's good writing, too.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 11:04 AM
Amy,
Just heard about your book from reading an entry on HotAir. This has moved to the top of my list of next books to read. As Homer Simpson would say: "She's says what we're all thinking!!!!"
Our children have always been complimented on the way they behave, particularly when they are away from us. When my daughter was younger (around 8 or 9) we sent her from Seattle to Phoenix to visit her grandmother. She flew unaccompanied. When we picker her up the flight attendant complimented us on how well behaved she was...to the extent they had to remind themselves they had an unaccompanied minor traveling. I don't know anything specific we did in raising my children other than to always think about putting themselves in the place of others and think about how they would want you to act.
Finally, I don't know what picture of you "Surfer Joe" was looking at, but it couldn't possibly be one of you. You are far from what he describes.
DaveM at November 27, 2009 11:04 AM
It is unfortunate that parents with special needs children are offended, but in no way is this distress intended towards you. There is an epidemic of obnoxious parents (particularly in NYC), that find nothing wrong with allowing their children to carry on like there is no one else in the world.
I live in an apartment building, where the walls are paper thin and yet my next door neighbors never, and I repeat NEVER reprimand their 'little sweetheart' when she runs/thumps around the apartment like she is in a gymnasium. It is truly amazing that they see nothing wrong with her behavior. I am terrified to think what this child is going to be like when she is older.
And what recourse am I left with: scream from the other side of the wall and tell her to knock it off, turn up my television real loud with inappropriate programing, what?
People have completely gotten out of hand.
delia at November 27, 2009 11:59 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679345">comment from DaveMThank you so much, DaveM! And congrats on raising your children with consideration for others.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 12:14 PM
Great article in the LA Times! Unfortunate parents who lack the common sense to control their children often have too much self-involvement to even see the dilemma they create by not properly constraining their kids.
For example: I'm seriously disabled with a rare and crippling form of Rheumatoid Arthritis. In large Wal*Mart type stores I use the scooter to get around. In smaller markets and stores where the isles are narrower I usually hobble around with my cane so that I don't cause squeezing in the small isles.
But while shopping recently in a smaller market, as I was attempting to maneuver down an isle that had a large power pole next to one of the racks, opposite and coming towards me was a mother wheeling her kid around in the kid-type shopping cart that looks like a truck or auto. She came around the post as I was approaching it, took all of center isle and barreled towards me without a single concern. As a mom wheeling a small kid around, she was convinced she had the 'right of way' as her cart was not as maneuverable as I was hobbling with a cane. There was no choice but to bite my lip and move aside so she could pass.
This is not the first time that moms pushing kids around in carts or walkers have almost run me over as they assume the 'right of way', and it is rapidly becoming a pet peeve of mine. So you are spot on that rudeness is sadly becoming the norm, and I look forward to reading your book. Hopefully it will find its way into the hands of those who need a 'reality check' as well!
KendraWilder at November 27, 2009 12:54 PM
I can identify with your friend Hilary - my husband and I had three children in quick sucession and we spent several years away from restaurants.
Once we did venture into restaurants we made sure our children understood that they were not to get up from the table, they must speak softly, and that a "bubble" existed around our table and they must not stare outside the bubble.
Now our children are older and I will frequently ask to be seated away from children in restaurants when we dine with our own children. Our children know how to behave appropriately in a restaurant but sadly many others do not.
I can't wait to read your book.
MePlusMyThree at November 27, 2009 2:08 PM
Ok. I am going to buy your book and read it because it sounds interesting, but I have to say - I think it is wrong to post an email sent to you personally. If he had posted that in the comments then - ok. But because he sent it to you in an email, normal people tend to believe those are private communications. There's no law against posting it and commenting, but I usually ask the person before posting an email I think readers would find interesting or relevent.
I agree with you about the kids and the cell phones.
Cindy at November 27, 2009 2:59 PM
Joe's harboring a little hatred and anger there, methinks. And taking it out on random bloggers.
Lobster at November 27, 2009 3:43 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679400">comment from CindyThanks, Cindy, for giving me the benefit of the doubt. You'll read about how I think we need to make this flagrant sort of rudeness "costly" to stop it. People behave this way because they think they are secretly getting verbally violent with you. I'm all about exposing wrongs I see. If people understand that their ugliness may not remain private, they won't become less ugly, but maybe they'll become less likely to express it.
(That, Rad, is why I posted this, but thanks, also, for your thoughts.)
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 3:48 PM
"But because he sent it to you in an email, normal people tend to believe those are private communications."
And that's why he was so nasty.
crella at November 27, 2009 4:19 PM
Dear Amy,
I wish you would give this thing about french kids being better behaved than Americans a rest. I've lived in France - all over it, for years, and not just on a deceptive visit to Paris - and I can assure you (like the lie that french women don't get fat) the idea of well-behaved french kids is just as erroneous. I've seen them smearing feces on the walls, tearing up restaurants, and, basically, being little monsters like kids, everywhere, can be.
How Americans have gotten it in their heads that we should admire anything about the french - to the point of spreading lies about our inferiority in a variety of areas ("The french do not agree!") - is beyond me. As I said, I lived there, on and off, for years and I found nothing - nothing - that we compare negatively to them in. I've seen bad kids, inconsiderate mobile phone users, bad food, extreme racism that would shock even American racists (I'm black, BTW), and more scams than I can shake a stick at. Your attitude appears to be a case of "the grass is always greener" but, as we both know, that's rarely the case, and it certainly isn't regarding the french and childcare.
I think you do a disservice to your own country when you spread this nonsense as fact: France is a former world leader because they do things wrong - not right - and to posit otherwise is, both, a slap in the face to your countrymen and also a most demoralizing spectacle.
The Crack Emcee at November 27, 2009 4:37 PM
Ahhh. That makes sense. I stand corrected. Carry on. *Ordering Book on Amazon now to learn more on how to stop the badness*
Cindy at November 27, 2009 4:41 PM
delia put speakers aginst the wall you share with them, and play some really loud porn, S&M if your willing to get it and play it every time they get loud
lujlp at November 27, 2009 5:12 PM
Interesting article. As the parent of a son disabled by a severe brain injury, I understand everyone's side on this. I want peace and quiet in public, but I know how hard it is to keep my son quiet--he has no idea what is appropriate behavior in public, despite my repeated attempts to teach him, he doesn't retain those memories.
Vic at November 27, 2009 5:34 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679417">comment from The Crack Emcee"Crack Emcee," why the alias? The stuff in my book about how children are raised in France is well-supported. You toss this stuff out here - feel free to take anything I've written and dispute it.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2009 5:40 PM
Mellisa G if you explain your child is specail needs and take him only to places where noise is expected, unlike a movie theater or a library or a nice resturant, most people wont care.
Ofcourse even a parent of a special needs child will draw looks of distain if your child kicks over the table in the bar of the ritz in the middle of the dinner hours
lujlp at November 27, 2009 5:49 PM
It always amazes me how people will try to drag out the must hurtful things they can think of instead of just presenting their viewpoint. If vulgarity is a sign of a limited vocabulary, is calling someone ugly, tranny, or whatever they come up with this week a sign of lack of communication skills? Good grief. And Amy, I'm sure you're aware, but I'll say it anyway, you're very pretty. I don't even know what else to say about Joe. Words fail me.
OH!! The letter from the elephants is adorable :-)
Anne at November 27, 2009 9:15 PM
> even a parent of a special needs child will
> draw looks of distain if your child kicks
> over the table in the bar of the ritz
I got not complaints with Melissa G at all. (Except that her blog signature is insufficiently memorable.)
I want parents of all children, including (mildly) troubled ones, to test their boundaries in public. And then (and only then), when things start to go wrong, I want loving parents to stop other people from being inconvenienced. Whatever insights children naturally have for good public behavior need to be allowed to take root.
...With autistics especially! This is one of those conditions that society has only recently come to appreciate— much like continental drift, and in about the same period of history (i.e., my lifetime!). The popular mind has made recently made room for distinctions of sex, race, and preference, and should be encouraged to do so for people who truly think differently.
This planet needs all the talent it can get.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 27, 2009 10:06 PM
PS- The Crack Emcee is my new Advice Goddess Blog hero.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 27, 2009 10:08 PM
Amy,
I am only 24 years old and I don't know the first thing about raising a child. Luckily, I have yet to be blessed with such a burden. However, I am completely intrigued by this e-mail that Mr. Stantley sent you, only because it is eerily familiar to a situation I found myself in with one of my best friends of 12 years (I'll refer to her as Sarah).
A few months ago, I made a very simple observation on Sarah's blog that she had generalized an entire population while at the same time stating that it was wrong to make generalizing statements about entire populations. I was in no way foul or rude to her and thought nothing of the comment as I went about my day. Later that afternoon, she proceeded to viciously (about par with Mr. Stantley) attack me on my social networking site for all of my family and friends to read. I responded by telling her I loved her and that I in no way meant for her to be so offended by my comments (I made sure to use the phrase "I am sorry" several times without conditions), but after I sent the message apologizing to her, she cut off all communications with me.
Two days ago, she wrote me an e-mail stating that she was just trying to show me how easy it was for a simple comment to cause a whirlwind of unintended consequences and after further consideration, she is willing to accept my apology.
My point is... I'm getting your book tomorrow.
Rachel at November 27, 2009 11:21 PM
I had new one today. An interesting mix. I stopped into my favorite Starbuck's. I was having my drink and glancing through the paper. Two guys and a woman come in with a number of kids. Apparently the kids had been mis-behaving so each had to sit at a seperate table. They were all quiet and well behaved while I was there. But it was also sort of rude in that all the tables were taken up by that group (6, maybe only 5). One kid per table, and the adults moved between the tables with kids.
The Former Banke at November 28, 2009 1:06 AM
The Former Banke, that's an interesting approach, this table-hogging method to keep the kids quiet. Hopefully, they would have abandoned this plan if someone came in and had no place to sit.
Amy, Amy, Amy...have you so forgotten the sagacious example of the late Dr. Albert Ellis? When someone emails you and says "Fuck you!" you email them back and say, "No, unfuck you! Fucking is a good thing!"
By the way, something I've been wondering about...what happened to Lena?
Patrick at November 28, 2009 2:49 AM
The problem with people like Joe is that they have very fragile egos and feel constantly under threat from others. So naturally when he read some of your comments he assumed you were having a go at people like him or children like his.
Afterwards, he had the presence to realize he had gone overboard. Either that, or he feared the damage to his business reputation and decided it would be in his interests to apologize and made amends.
Nick S at November 28, 2009 3:15 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679447">comment from RachelThanks, Rachel, for buying the book--and I completely see the parallel.
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 5:39 AM
I am told my parents were trained this way
> I asked my dad whether my two sisters and I
> ever threw screaming fits as children. He
> said "No, not after you were little babies,"
> and added, "We always talked to you girls as
> adults, and expected you to act like adults
> when we took you to restaurants or other adult
> places. You were children, so you didn't always
> do the right thing. But, we'd say, 'Girls,
> that's not done here,' and you'd listen."
I was trained this way. I am training my kids this way. It works as described
ric at November 28, 2009 5:47 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679453">comment from ricYou were children, so you didn't always > do the right thing. But, we'd say, 'Girls, > that's not done here,' and you'd listen." I was trained this way. I am training my kids this way. It works as described
Thank you, ric, for being an actual Parent. It was not a stressful way to be raised. There was simply a certain standard of behavior expected of us, and my parents were clearly the authority figures in the parent-child relationship (not like in the more ambiguous idea of who's in charge in parent-child relationships I often see today). No meant no, not scream and try to change it to yes. It wouldn't have been successful. Once a kid sees brat tactics may work -- when parents aren't loving enough to stand their ground, and instead, perhaps, want to be popular with their kids -- well, that's the start of building a brat.
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 6:54 AM
I'm picking up this book today. We have twin girls and past the age of two could take them anywhere. At five they flew on a ten hour flight to Hawaii. We've been asked since they were little how we get them to behave so well. Just recently (they are 12 now) we again took them to Hawaii and there were several children on board and all were misbehaving. One 4 year old looking child repeatedly struck both her mother and father in the face and all of their children screamed, crawled over other passengers (they were never buckled in after take off)and in general were pretty bratty. One of my girls looked at me and asked "Dad, was I ever like that?" I reassured her that she knew how to behave properly, even at a young age. The problem is that parents don't want to be bothered. They don't want to follow through. They want to be friends and not parents. The setting of rules and standards is not 'progressive'. I have children I can take anywhere and really all it required was consistency, effort, time, and patience. It wasn't rocket scientist stuff.
Tim at November 28, 2009 6:59 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679459">comment from TimThank you so much, Tim! And you're right - it isn't and wasn't rocket scientist stuff. Hitting parents? Another thing I simply couldn't have conceived of!
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 7:14 AM
I think I'm going to buy your book for my college-student daughter who was raised by "loving fascists" and can't understand why people allow their children to play tag and trash the restaurant she works in so that she and others are left to clean up the mess. And that's the mildest of her arguments about rude people this week. LOL
Kelley Pounds at November 28, 2009 8:05 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679475">comment from Kelley PoundsI think I'm going to buy your book for my college-student daughter who was raised by "loving fascists" and can't understand why people allow their children to play tag and trash the restaurant she works in so that she and others are left to clean up the mess.
Thank you so much, Kelley, for buying my book -- and congratulations. The "loving fascist" parents thing worked out really well for me! Thanked my parents just the other day!
Amy Alkon at November 28, 2009 9:14 AM
Rachel wrote: Two days ago, she wrote me an e-mail stating that she was just trying to show me how easy it was for a simple comment to cause a whirlwind of unintended consequences and after further consideration, she is willing to accept my apology.
She's willing to accept your apology? Really? Shit. She owes YOU an apology and I'd be damned if I'd want to stay friends with her.
Anne at November 28, 2009 9:49 AM
Dear Amy,
I am a recording artist/performer:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2003-09-03/music/planet-rock/
Please don't get me wrong: I like your work, and generally agree with you, but this french fetish you have - and the erroneous idea that the french beat us in child care - is (pardon me) ourageously wrong. My own impression of french childcare left me worried about the little tykes:
Didn't you notice the french lay their floors with heavy rock tiles, instead of (for instance) carpeting, so when the littles ones fall, it's almost always with a loud, excrutiating, watermelon-like crack of their little skulls? I considered it child abuse - until I realised, for the sake of a conventional appearance in their homes, their parents could give a damn - and then I found it funny as hell because, kids being kids, they kept repeating it no matter how many times they were told not to run in the house.
*CRACK* Child: "WAAAAH!" Me: *snicker*
I mean, if nothing else, American kids aren't stupid enough to keep hurting themselves and, from my experience, American parents do try to make their homes child safe - something I can assure you french parents do not.
And, even more serious, didn't you notice all the kids with their hair falling out because, whatever they have that causes it, their parents treat them with homeopathy (AKA "water") which, in my opinion, also amounts to child abuse?
As far as rudeness goes, like I said, I've seen french parents inflict their little monsters on restaurants, on more occassions than I care to remember. True to french behavior, everyone just pretended it wasn't happening (the french are big on pretending certain things haven't happened, like they've lost world influence) and then, of course, once the offending family was gone, they'd talk about them behind their backs. If the behavior was bad enough, and it took place in a small village, then maybe they'd even start to plot against the family - the french do love plotting against one another as well - why no mention of that (uglier) side of them and their culture?
I can't tell you how often I hear about french cuisine - how good it is, etc. - with nary a mention of how limited their diet is compared to ours. (I have been to several house parties in one evening, where they all have the same food - same brands, laid out in an identical manner - because that's what a tradition-bound culture dictates: do it differently and the inevitable phrase "this is not done!" is whipped out.) There's also never a mention of how they don't think of white Americans as "Real Americans", imagining that only blacks and American indians are "authentic" and only those living on the American coasts (New York and San Francisco, specifically) are even sane. How, in 2010, can any American admire a people that racist and ignorant toward their own skin, kin, and country? I couldn't, and my respect for them dropped each time they introduced it as a theme: Again, I'm black and an entertainer, so their efforts to win me over may have been different, and intimate, than yours. Whatever it was, I didn't like it.
Amy, I'm a proud American and - unlike Obama or anyone else who has decided to look at us and find us wanting or worthy of an apology - I see a people who, despite our own (mostly self-inflicted) failings, are still the envy of the world. In Europe, America is still referred to as "The New World", indicating not only our brief existence but how advanced we are compared to them. From the first day they saw Ben Franklin with a coonskin cap, we have been the focus of their jealosy and main cause of France's incriminating question "What happened?" We have nothing to be ashamed of - we outshine France on our worse days - and to suggest otherwise is (no offense) a lie, and a bald-faced one at that. I expect more from someone, otherwise, as intelligent (and beautiful) as you.
Take care,
CMC
P.S.
French women do get fat.
The Crack Emcee at November 28, 2009 5:40 PM
And just to give you a different (and, I think, more life affirming) view of things, a quick story from my childhood:
We were in church, and as the pastor gave his sermon a child started crying - really bawling - causing the young parents to grow increasingly frustrated and embarrassed. Overwhelmed, they eventually gathered their things and got up to leave, when the pastor stopped and said, "Where are you going? You folks sit right on down. It's O.K. that the baby's crying. You know what I think when I hear that sound? That baby's ALIVE! And that, my friends, is God's blessing!"
Now, Amy, I'm an atheist, but I, for one, have never forgotten that message and how important it is for "sophisticated" types to keep some perspective. I've seen kids misbehave the world over - liberal parenting is a world-wide scourge - but kids are kids: Lighten up.
They're Alive!
The Crack Emcee at November 28, 2009 6:02 PM
> I see a people who, despite our own (mostly
> self-inflicted) failings, are still the envy
> of the world
At least for the period 1980-2000 and perhaps through the present day —the adult life of almost every reader of this blog comment– the United States welcomed more legal immigrants than every other nation on Earth combined.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 28, 2009 6:27 PM
PS- I still hate children, though. In the brilliant phrasing of Paul Rudnick:
| Childhood is not a utopia but a
| holding pen; the good stuff
| comes later, when you're ready,
| when you've earned it. Children
| look abysmal in evening clothes
| and are problematic in theaters,
| restaurants and concert halls;
| as a rule, children are useless
| after 4:00 p.m.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 28, 2009 6:38 PM
I can't imagine evening clothes, theatres, and concert halls being the summation of the "good stuff" in life. I still like a good milkshake and a trip to the park, personally.
I'm pretty sure the ratio of people hating kids to people hating Hollywood hacks is about 1:10.
momof4 at November 28, 2009 6:48 PM
My kids are 3 and 5 and they fly frequently. They get a little bored on 5 hour flights at which time they say "Dad, I'm a little bored." My kids have never cried or yelled on a plane and I can't imagine they ever would. When they see other kids crying, they ask me why the child is crying. I tell them the truth: "that child is crying because he has bad parents." Of course I do realize that I am only correct about 98% of the time.
The reason so many parents are so angry at Amy is because they, consciously or otherwise, realize the truth, which is that they are lousy parents.
Why would anyone though, tell an attractive woman that she is unattractive, in an attempt to gain an edge in an argument over parenting? I don't get that at all.
Chris at November 28, 2009 8:51 PM
> the ratio of people hating
> kids to people hating Hollywood
No safety in numbers... The world is crawling with foolishness.
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at November 29, 2009 5:45 AM
Rachel, your friend Sarah sounds like a sociopath. What she is doing to you is extremely manipulative.
Cousin Dave at November 30, 2009 9:03 AM
Thank you for writing this book (I See Rude People). I just bought a dozen copies and it has solved my gift giving dilemmas for the holidays! A much needed wake-up call for our lack of general societal civility! Bless you!
Fleur at November 30, 2009 2:10 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/27/joe_santley_is.html#comment-1679869">comment from FleurFleur, thank you so much. A dozen copies. That is just thrilling! Bless you right back!
Amy Alkon at November 30, 2009 2:34 PM
I got onto a fully loaded airplane last Tuesday, and was unhappy to see that my seat-mates would be a young mother with her two children, one about two, and the other about six months, riding in her arms. I pretty much resigned myself to transcontinental hell, because I really needed to get home.
Well, those two children were the most delightful people I have ever flown with. Mom was attentive to the little one, but was always guiding the toddler -- she was on her A-game the entire six hours. The entire flight passed without a single raised voice.
I complimented her on her well-behaved children as I departed the flight, and let her know how much I appreciated her efforts. When folks are doing it right, you should let them know.
Gridlock at November 9, 2010 9:48 AM
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