Pretty much on topic!

http://www.sketchysantas.com/

One of the biggest choking hazards for children, even those much older than three, are hot dogs, but you don't see those being banned.

Santa's not only a pedophile, he's too fat and promotes drunk driving:

http://www.usnews.com/health/family-health/childrens-health/articles/2009/12/20/santa-not-the-best-role-model-for-kids-health.html

Yeah, I don't want my kids sitting on anyone's lap they don't know and know well. Plus, they're pretty leery of Santa anyway. Really, a man, who comes into your house at night while you sleep, and is always watching you? They don't want anything much to do with him, but they do like the gifts he brings.

This is just the precautionary principle run amok... for the same reason you could see warning labels about something never intend to be eaten that say "product is not intended for human consumption"... the same reason you can't sell used anything anymore without checking for lead.

Americans are risk averse without understanding risk, and how to calculate it.

I always brought my kids for the Santa picture and of course they sat on his knee. They were too young to be swapping numbers on their iphone and considering that I and a long line of mothers were standing there, I don't think that even Jack the Ripper could have made off with any little children. What a shame that another really sweet Christmas tradition is being ruined! And as far as those chocolate eggs, my kids loved those too. I must be a horrible mother for putting them in their stocking!

"Yeah, I don't want my kids sitting on anyone's lap they don't know and know well."

Really? Santa? With you standing right there?

I know some kids are terrified of these dressed up characters. My son always was. But for the kids who enjoy it, I just think it's a shame to taint this tradition with overtures of pedophilia.

This paranoia effects everything. My mom was a kindergarten/early elementary teacher of 30+ years, and she said that by the time she was nearing retirement, she was afraid to sit a child on her lap to read them a story anymore. That's really unfortunate.

I disagree with some of the anti-fear rhetoric frequently expressed here. For instance, I don't think young children should roam around neighborhoods unattended anymore - not with 160 registered sex offenders within a 5 mile radius. That pleasant naivety has been shattered for me. As rare as child abductions may be, you never want it to be your child.

But Santa? C'mon.

"Santa? "

It's just a dude in a costume. That you don't know and have never met, and you have no idea how/if he was background checked. Would you want your kid climbing into some random guy's lap on the E train? This is no different. I think the rules are to protect the Santas, and the people hiring them, anyway, not so much for the kids.

What is he going to do? You're standing there, along with tons of other parents, and probably store security (no doubt they probably have him videotaped). His ability to molest your child is severely limited.

Does this to apply Mickey Mouse, Pluto, Snow White too?

I understand being protective, but teaching children that climbing onto an old person's lap is wrong - even when you're there - seems a bit extreme. We all sat on our grandpa's laps when we were little.

"Would you want your kid climbing into some random guy's lap on the E train?"

No, but honestly, my first thought would be that my child was being intrusive to climb onto someone's lap, not that my child would be molested. If it was a nice person, who didn't seem to mind - and I was standing right there - I wouldn't get upset about it.

People I didn't know all that well have picked my children up (when they were small), in my presence. Another parent at my daughter's school was in a wheelchair, and my daughter would climb onto his lap and give him a kiss when she was about 4 yrs old. I remember feeling so proud when he told me that she was the only child there that didn't seem scared of him at first because he was in a wheelchair. It meant so much to him to be treated like a human being.

You want your children to be aware of the dangers but not lose that warmth and human connection.

I remember being terrified of store Santas, not because they were possible perverts, but because they looked fake, bored, and often grumpy. And at 4 years old, I wondered why there were so many of them. Now kids who aren't afraid, are often not allowed to sit on his lap, while at home or next door good old Uncle***waits to see you. Relatives are much more likely to be a threat.
As an elem. school teacher, I felt sorry for male teachers who were suspect for just being warm, compassionate individuals.
Finally, I'm also amazed at the warnings put on some items. At a local craft fair I bought a neck warmer filled with flax seed that had to be warmed in a microwave. A warning label said "Do not heat while wearing or wear while heating". I asked the vendor why that was even there, and she said her lawyer advised her so she couldn't be sued.

Lovelysoul, you got a link for that 160 peophiles within 5 miles of your house?

If you can't differentiate climbing in Santa's lap for a picture at the mall with climbing on a stranger on the E train, then you have bigger problems than Santa Claus. You're right though, Momof4, teach your kids that everyone in the world is bad and trying to hurt them in some way. Teach them that there is no custom or tradition that is sweet but rather they are all bad and an excuse for a pedophile to get close. Then when the nervous breakdowns hit teach them how to avoid all the loonies they're sharing the loony bin with. Seriously? What can a mall Santa possibly do in full view of you and the rest of that long line that is snaked around the concession are?! I feel sorry for you that you have such a negative perspective about the whole world and even worse that you're passing that on to your kids.

"Lovelysoul, you got a link for that 160 peophiles within 5 miles of your house?"

Luj, I posted a Miami Herald article a few weeks back about a little girl outside of Jacksonville who was recently abducted (her body found in a trash dump), and the figure was close to that, if not more. It was in the hundreds - the number of registered sex-offenders within a 5 mile radius of her house.

I'll see if I can find the article, but it's old news now, and I can't remember her name. She was just walking home from school and ran ahead of her older siblings.

Miami Herald wanted me to pay to go their archives, but if you schroll down through this, you'll find it in the 10/24/09 posting:

http://www.crimenews2000.com/news.php?extend.1812

"The day after the child's body was identified, authorities said they had ruled out all 161 registered sex offenders who lived within a 5-mile radius of Somer's home."

As far as those registries go, there are good and bad points about them. I used to live in a town where there was a motel that was moving all the sex offenders in and it was within a mile of my children's elementary school. People fought it. My attitude was that those pedophiles were mobile. Until you chopped off their feet, they could go find that school yard if they were so inclined. More importantly though was the false sense of security that people get lulled into by such a list. I knew of a few people that flew under the radar and they were definitely molesting kids. And they didn't have googly eyes or any other tell-tale signs of being a pedophile.

Actually, they do sit on his knee here in Aus, I walked past some kids sitting on Santa's knee last week. The big difference, safety wise, is that this is a man in a public place, whom you have asked to fulfill this function and who is being watched by every person that goes past. If he managed to do the wrong thing he'd be lynched in about five seconds flat. If he was just some fat bloke on a bench trying to get kids to sit on his knee, of course there would be cause for concern.

(PS I started typing Alison D instead of Alison Dennehy a while back, only because I cannot be arsed typing Alison Dennehy every time. But it's still me and I am not trying to pretend it's not.)

My kids only sat on his knee once or twice, because they just weren't that interested, but we did get a couple of Santa pics over the years.

If you go to the site, and type in your address, you can see how many sex-offenders are in your area. Click on the convictions, and you'll see what it was for. Most in my area seem to be "lewd/lacivious act against a child".

http://www.familywatchdog.us/Default.asp

Lovelysoul, that url sets off my computer's malware alarms. FWIW.
--
Phunctor

Thanks, Phunctor, but I've been on it. I've got good antivirus, so I think it's fine. A lot of parents use this site, but I've never really searched it, since my kids are older.

I don't know about anyone else's area, but I live in a small community. There are 17 sex-offenders within a 5 mile radius of my home, and none were teens when convicted. Only one was under 26 (23). Most are men in their 30s-50s, convicted of "lewd/laciv" against child under 16, or under 12.

I didn't have this information when my kids were little. Our parents didn't have it when we were little. I suspect that if they'd known how many sex offenders were out there, they wouldn't have let us roam so freely.

I happy to report that my (soon to be) six year old has seen Santa three times this year, is excited as can be about his arrival, and is absolutely unafraid of him. All three Santas were just nice old guys who probably enjoyed the experience as much as the kids did.

It's a nice bit of magic in a cynical world.

Great. The US is more nanny-statish than Canada for God's sake.

BTW, the time-and-manpower-consuming effort to treat every man like a perv has got to severely cut into the available manpower for protecting kids from actual pervs. Besides, those guys and gals have RIGHTS, unlike your average non-pervy Joe.

Loveysoul, sex registries are a crock of shit. I refuse to pay any attention to them anymore. See Amy's post from a few days back. I bet only 10% of the people on that list are child molesters or rapists.

Of course, this is not to say that parents should not be careful. But abductions are very rare, and are not happening more now than they were when we were kids.

KarenW, I thought that too, but I spent part of the evening looking at the mugshots and convictions of some these jokers, and it's rather enlightening.

I truly expected to see a lot of decent-looking young guys who probably just made love to their slightly underage girlfriends, or divorcing dads wrongfully accused, but after reading the actual convictions, that's pretty clearly not the case the majority of the time.

When it says "child under 12" and the sleezy-looking guy was 52 at the time of conviction, you know it's not good.

Let's just say I wouldn't want my kid sitting on these guy's laps...or walking down the street in front of their homes.

Take a look. You might change your mind.

Oh kiss my ass ya'll. I find sitting in random people's laps icky, and find it odd that most parents encourage (hell, FORCE, from what I've seen) their kids to do so, then turn around and look suspiciously at the gym coach for hugging them after practice. I don't think they're pedofiles and obviously don't think they're going to diddle my kid right there. I'm not a hugger either, and you'd never find me kidding someone's cheek to greet them. We all have our things we don't like.

I"m not passing anything on to my kids re: Santa. I did the dutiful new-mom thing and waited in line with the babies that first christmas, they screamed bloody murder and I did NOT force them, and they've had no interest in getting closer than 10 feet since.

Clowns freak me out too. Am I horrid because I'm "denying" my kids the fun of a stinky drunk acting stupid, too?

" I bet only 10% of the people on that list are child molesters or rapists."

It's easy enough to see WHY they're on there, since it's listed right next to the photo, at least in texas.

Oh, and Mickey Mouse, Pluto, and Snow White are back-ground checked out the wazoo. And usually about 18 years old. Isn't the consensus on this list that 18 year olds can't be molesters??

I worked at Disney, and actually pulled a shift as Cruella Deville. It was fun. Having gone through their hiring process, I'd trust a disney employee any day. I think the FBI's more lax.

"Oh kiss my ass ya'll."

Careful, "momof4." Maybe someone under 18 is reading that and will be scarred for life because some stranger on the internet suggested her ass be kissed. Nobody is suggesting you force your children onto the laps of strangers as they kick and scream clinging to you. There's a big difference though between not being a touchy feely person and distorting the whole sitting on Santa's lap thing. As far as the clown thing...I personally find them freaky, but I did the dutiful mom thing and took my kids to the circus. They loved it so I sucked it up and kept going. I did watch though to make sure that no clowns tried to sneak off with my kid in the clown car.

Heh.

Again, I don't have to do anything. You teach your kids that no one is to be trusted, that priests and police and teachers and Santa all live to rape them, and everybody with a gun wants to kill them...

All in the name of some imaginary virtue.

And background checks? You really think that's the answer, that it stops a first offense? (Had to say that, it's in the job description, making you afraid of everything.)

This kind of stuff brings a tear to my eye. I'm so honored! I couldn't do any better if I really existed!

Oh Satan. The Satan from Twain's The Mysterious Stranger. It's good to have you back.

A friend told me that someone could land on the registry for urinating in public, and that doesn't mean they were whizzing in front of the public library. The person he was referring to had pulled over to the side of the road and was standing on the other side of the car. So it's possible many people on the list weren't harming adults or children.

I've given up on this stuff - as a 36 year old single guy, I've done the paranoia thing of not wanting to set off parents' alarms and avoiding even eye contact with other people's kids for fear of being suspected, and you know what? The kids hate it (they're trying to talk to you and you're ignoring them, they don't understand), and you look even worse. Now I've decided I'm just going to act naturally, the child will usually decide whether they like you or not, so if they talk to me on public transport I smile and talk back, maybe with a quick glance to the parent so they know I'm aware of them, if my friends' kids climb on my lap I don't worry about it. Parents have to be careful but you have to trust your child to some extent and use judgement, just keep them reasonably supervised and educated. If some hysterical parent wants to accuse me of trying to abduct or molest their child then screw 'em.

Santa in a department store? Give me a break, you're standing right there. He may reek of cigarettes and gin but what's he going to do? Even if he cops a quick feel it's not going to scar the kid for life unless you make it into a big deal. Icky but not life threatening. Most kids won't know it was wrong until you tell them, leave well enough alone and it's like it never happened - and watch out for the real distress and anxiety signs that come with a friend or family member committing serious abuse.

And Kinder Surprise not available in the US? Insanity. I haven't read about a choking epidemic here in Australia either, and I thought we had the worst nanny state laws (aside from the UK perhaps).

We have the Kinder eggs in Israel, they are kosher (at least the ones imported to here).

Kindergarten and primary-school aged kids LOVE them - the prizes are really a step up from what I remember getting in Cracker-Jack boxes, and the kids have the fun experience of assembling some of them in addition to playing with them.

Pricey (at least here) but the entertainment-to-cost ratio is good for a small treat.

They sound like gashapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon) only not in the vending machine.

@Ben-David you are correct about Australia and nannies.

A couple of years back but only in Aus...

Santa ho,ho,ho gets heave-ho

THERE'LL be no ho, ho, ho this Christmas. Aspiring Santas have been told not to use the term "ho" because it could be seen as derogatory to women.

Gwallan I think you meant me - but yes that's exactly the sort of ridiculousness I meant.

Ha ha ha! Merry Christmas!

@Ltw...

Oops. I hangs me head.

Ah, well...

With Christmas approaching this seems a good time to remind everyone that Santa, along with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy don’t actually exist. They remain very important in theory however. How else can we prepare our young ones for the really big adult lies like democracy and justice and “No, my dear, you don’t look fat in that”.

When our son was born, my ex insisted that we not tell the "Santa lie." He felt that parents lying "for years!" to children sent the wrong message. Maybe that's why my son always feared Santa - he knew it was just some drunk dressed up in a crazy suit.

Of course, by preschool, he'd told all his little friends there was no Santa. We weren't very popular that year (one of those moments you look like a terrible parent even when you're trying to do the right thing).

By the time our daughter came along, we'd chucked such lofty, idealistic parenting goals and just told her the lie.

But then, after they hit "the age of reason" (7), you must be able to answer all those endless questions: How does he get around the whole world in one night? (the reindeer fly at the speed of light). How does he carry all those presents? (I went with the compressed package theory)

LS, that's hilarious... once upon a time, a few co-workers and I outlined a sort of sci-fi story about how an actual Santa Claus operation could be carried out, using current technology. Needless to say, the cost of it would be rather more than the GDP of most nations.

M4 writes: "I'm not a hugger either, and you'd never find me kidding someone's cheek to greet them. We all have our things we don't like."

M4, I sense some projection taking place here. If you aren't a touchy-feely person, you have every right to feel that way. However, that does not give you moral permission to ascribe ulterior motives to everyone who feels differently. I do a lot of ballroom dancing, which involves a fair bit of physical contact between partners. Ballroom dancers get a lot of flak from certain quarters from people who think that all physical contact inevitably leads to sex. We consider that attitude small-minded and ignorant.

The only person who lied to me about democracy and justice was my father. Now, every time I hear the word "justice" my bullshit meter goes through the roof. He was a lawyer for the ACLU. Fortunately, I had some wonderful teachers who countered the bullshit with definitions and examples and allowed me to think for myself.

Heh, LS, I always just went with the all purpose "Santa is magic" theory.

When my daughter was 8, she insisted that I tell the the "absolute truth" about Santa. I questioned her extensively first, trying not to give anything away, to decide whether she meant it, then I did tell her there was no Santa. She cried for 2 hours. I finally told her it was a test to see whether she would fall for the no Santa line, and since she didn't, he would be coming as usual. She recovered nicely.

gwallan said: "With Christmas approaching this seems a good time to remind everyone that Santa, along with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy don’t actually exist. They remain very important in theory however. How else can we prepare our young ones for the really big adult lies like democracy and justice and “No, my dear, you don’t look fat in that”."

You read Terry Pratchett, don't you? He's fond of saying that you have to believe in the little lies, as practice to believe in the big ones like duty, justice, and honor.

My older brother ruined Santa for me when I was about six (he was twelve at the time). He said "Santa isn't real!" and of course, I went to Mom, the all-knowing oracle, to tell him the truth. My mom's answer was incredibly diplomatic, and to this day, I think it was a good answer. She just said "Santa's as real as you want him to be.". I like that line. Naturally, however, at the time I took it to mean that Santa wasn't real, and I proceeded to try and beat up my brother.

And I intend to use the "it's magic" answer as well. It'll prepare them well for reading most of the lower tier fantasy stuff, like Harry Potter, where the magic has no laws...

Regarding Santa Claus and kids: I remember my first and only occasion of going through the line to sit on Santa's lap. Almost scared me shitless. Almost. Santa didn't have to change his suit, but once was more than enough for me.

I think part of my fear may have stemmed from being told not to talk to strangers, and another part was from having sisters that liked to scare me (I was the youngest) by telling me that the sweet old lady next door was a witch, the house on the other side of us was haunted, I was adopted, etc. They probably told me something frightening about Santa, too, and I've blocked it. Ah, the magic of childhood!

I say let kid's sit on Santa's lap if they want to, but don't urge it on them.
******
Cornerdemon, Terry Pratchett is hilarious. Combine him with Neil Gaiman and you get Good Omens, which is quite special.

Somewhat OT, but did you see the terrific piece from ABC News last night?

I'm afraid to post the link, so just Google on: "Does Santa Have an Evil Twin? Just Ask European Children" and then click on the first link. (With the second link, I had to click again, on "full story" before the video was made available.) It's just over two minutes long, not counting the preceding ad. Apparently, in France and Austria (and the Czech Republic, though they don't mention that) St. Nick is accompanied in public by a devilish sidekick who doesn't mind scaring even the smallest of kids. You may not believe the stuff you'll see!

Quote:

Rev. Canon James Rosenthal, the president of the St. Nicholas Society, has studied the roots of the holiday legend.

"Why do they do it? ... They wanted to tell the story of good versus evil," he says. "Nicholas is good and the devil is bad."

I finally caught on Santa wasn't real and my older sister let me stay up to watch my parents bring out gifts.
------------------

That being said, I came of age during the Child Sex Abuse witch-hunt of the '80's. (Read McMurrain pre-school -- along with many others.) I watched the life of a friend, her husband, an Air Force career and a good man destroyed.

What is worse was, at least one of the little girls was being molested by her stepfather.

That left me for years not wanting any involvement with children.

I am now, 15-20 years later, able, and willing, to watch my lady friends kids. But it was a long journey there.

I feel sorry for the dads and stepdads that are always looking over their shoulders for suspicious strangers that want to interpret a hug as molestation, not care.

Jim, I think you're talking about the McMartin Preschool case. It was indeed a complete and utter travesty, and it was the beginning of the current social trend of regarding all adult males as child molesters. And I will point out that the feminists of the time were 100% behind the prosecution -- the "experts" who coerced the dishonest statements from the children were ardent feminists.

"Loveysoul, sex registries are a crock of shit. I refuse to pay any attention to them anymore."

*whew*.

My copy of "Good Omens" is so tattered and weatherbeaten... it's one of the few I insist on rereading every year. And I think that I've thrust that book on more people than any other piece of literature.

I think that teaching children that their parents lie to them (Santa, Easter Bunny, etc) is more damaging than having them sit on a strangers lap in your full view.

In the Santa tradition, I would be more concerned with the little kids passing around illnesses as they wait in line than the Santa Claus causing them harm.

-Julie

Santa may get away with molesting your kids if all you think molestation means is rape or kidnapping. What about that "hard pillow" kids have complained about when sitting on his lap?
what about "mom santa hurt me in the bummy?" then of course the mom thinks it's silly.

nope. ya really DO have to be aware of some of those nasty Christmastime Mall Santa.