People Can Be So Disappointing
There was a big to-do over an incident in D.C., painted in a blog item in reason as a "snowball fight" where an officer drew a gun on the people involved. Turns out the people there were actually throwing snowballs at moving vehicles; Hummers, especially.
Nick Gillespie writes:
Around 2.30PM on Saturday, December 19, residents at the intersection of 14th and U Streets NW started throwing snowballs at passing Hummers.One of the cars pelted was driven by a plainclothes police officer identified only as Det. Baylor. Baylor got out of his car and brandished his gun at the crowd.
Reason.tv's Dan Hayes was on the scene, capturing the tense confrontation between police and citizens who chanted "Don't bring a gun to a snowball fight!"
Everybody was all up in arms that an officer, whose moving vehicle was hit by a snowball, apparently drew his gun on the snowball throwing mob. (In the video I saw, all I spotted was what looked to be a walkie talkie.) There's all sorts of yammering (into the hundreds of comments) about police brutality, and very few people acknowledging how dangerous it is (and rude) to throw snowballs at cars.
Is it just that I'm from Michigan, and used to winter driving (and kind of afraid of it)? Somebody once threw a snowball at a car I was driving and I was so startled, I nearly ran off the road. It's dangerous. If it's thrown at the windshield it can break it (if there are rocks packed into it) or obscure the driver's vision. This is a several-ton (or many-ton) motor vehicle, traversing snowy streets in the middle of a snowstorm. Startling a driver or obscuring the driver's vision can have serious (or even deadly) consequences.
And then, on a libertarian blog -- one I'm usually pretty much in agreement with (see the reason ad on the side of my blog) -- it's surprising how cavalier many of the commenters were about property rights. Do people not get that a hard-packed snowball can damage a car?
Here's an embed of the video:
Idiots. As someone who lives in a place where snow is non-existent but used to ski nearby a lot, I'm very respectful of driving in snowy and icy conditions. Your visibility is zero, control of the car dodgy, it's ok but you want your wits about you and you don't need distractions. If he got out and broke up their irresponsible behaviour fair enough, it sounds like sensible policing to prevent a possible tragedy.
And it looks to me like an organised group trying to provoke a confrontation, they were a bit too quick with the chants, cameras, and calls for badge numbers and names.
And that cop has got balls I must say - standing up to that mob wouldn't have been fun. Given their behaviour he was incredibly restrained.
Of course we didn't see what led up to it, but the early commentary by the cameraman soundsd more inflammatory than aggrieved.
Ltw at December 21, 2009 12:46 AM
And I didn't see a gun either, just a bunch of assholes.
Ltw at December 21, 2009 12:48 AM
Yeah, but dude... A rod? A heater? A piece? For a snowball fight?
Did he need to "stand up" to this mob? Would another citizens, without small arms and brethren as backup, feel the need to "stand up"? Don't most of us walk away from minor, perhaps-comical-if-perhaps-injurious assaults like this all the time?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 1:35 AM
Didn't look like a snowball fight to me, looked like a bunch of pricks intentionally provoking a confrontation. They were just a bit too cute with their cameras and prepared statements for me to believe they were just having fun. And I still want to see some evidence of this gun, there were a shitload of cameras round so if he pulled it I'm sure they would have shown it.
Did he need to 'stand up' to them? Well if they were chucking anything (snowballs or otherwise) at passing cars, yes he did, that's his job.
Ltw at December 21, 2009 2:38 AM
> if they were chucking anything (snowballs
> or otherwise) at passing cars, yes he did,
> that's his job.
Point taken, touche, you're right... But when this story appeared on Reason over the weekend I looked up the corner on Google, and that one name up on the wall reminded me that this isn't a town known for having really solid behavior from authority figures.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 3:14 AM
Also, our mayor out here in L.A. (and probably the whole city council too) rides in a huge SUV at taxpayer expense, even though the vehicle is too heavy to be legally operated on city streets.
So, it's like a thang.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 3:17 AM
If adults want to satisfy their inner child on a snowy day, can't they just build snowmen?
Patrick at December 21, 2009 3:40 AM
There's some evidence that a snowball was the projectile that began the American Revolution.
Robin at December 21, 2009 6:17 AM
Sorry Amy,
Not with you on this one. I've had a copy cavalierly point his firearm at me. Pulling a gun on people pulling snowballs is bad judgment, and the cop should be called on it.
Should they have been throwing snowballs at cars? No. Should he have intervened? Yes. Should he have pulled a gun? No.
Bill
Bill McNutt at December 21, 2009 6:52 AM
>>And I still want to see some evidence of this gun, there were a shitload of cameras round so if he pulled it I'm sure they would have shown it.
I'm no expert - but this appears to show the gun.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1237476/Pictured-The-moment-American-police-detective-pulls-HANDGUN-hes-hit-SNOWBALLS.html
Jody Tresidder at December 21, 2009 6:58 AM
"Also, our mayor out here in L.A. (and probably the whole city council too) rides in a huge SUV at taxpayer expense, even though the vehicle is too heavy to be legally operated on city streets."
Oh, really?
What model SUV is heavier than the garbage trucks, UPS vans and delivery trucks routinely supplying every downtown venue?
Radwaste at December 21, 2009 6:58 AM
I am with the cop. These assholes seem to want to intentionaly cause an accident. Potentially the cop was saving someones life and their property.
Richard Cook at December 21, 2009 7:02 AM
Jody, that's nice and sensational. "Terrifying", indeed...
I'm surprised I don't recognize the pistol. The detail is too low; it looks like a Makarov, which isn't DC police issue.
Although the Washington DC handgun ban was ruled un-Constitutional recently, the only people allowed to have a gun are police and government officials - and thugs, of course. But I repeat myself.
Are you terrified often?
This wasn't right - but: do you think everything is just peachy if a uniform is present? Would that make things better somehow?
Radwaste at December 21, 2009 7:06 AM
What's now coming out about this incident is that the cop was being hit by snowballs as he got out of the car and started to radio in. Then he drew his gun.
The video that's posted here doesn't work for me, but in the following version you see him get hit in the face at about the 45 second mark, and prior to that the VO acknowledges that people were throwing snowballs at him - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAgQKJuriIo&feature=player_embedded#
So it's apparent that he didn't just come charging out of his car and start 'waving his gun around', per the statement from the organizer.
http://www.futuremagining.com/?p=3
If you read the statement linked from the page above, and watch the video, it's apparent that there are discrepancies. The organizer seems to be spinning this incident for his own purposes.
Frankly this whole episode strikes me as an example of manufactured outrage. The only aspect that makes it notable is that a bunch of white people saw a gun and now feel that they're the victims of a rouge cop.
Mike at December 21, 2009 7:30 AM
There is enough bad judgement to go around, but one point: You only point a gun at someone if you are willing to pull the trigger. If you are not in a situation where you would be willing to shoot, you don't pull the gun.
I really don't think that is the case here.
bradley13 at December 21, 2009 7:54 AM
Throwing snowballs on the UT Knoxville campus can get you thrown in jail. An on campus incident in the late ‘60s left a student dead after a snowball hit the wrong driver’s truck. The irate driver stopped his truck, got out and shot and killed the student. Now the campus rules are no snowball throwing and classes were never dismissed again for snow.
Roger at December 21, 2009 7:57 AM
"Don't most of us walk away from minor, perhaps-comical-if-perhaps-injurious assaults like this all the time?"
Yes, because we aren't cops, and value our safety. It most certainly is a cops job to stop them. Here in Texas, you'd have equal odds a non-cop would come out of their car with a gun. Which is probably why you don't see that sort of thing here. Well, that, and we have no snow to speak of. Also, self-defense in Texas covers defense of property. Meaning, a non-cop with a gun could shoot the person throwing snowballs at their car, and get off, here.
Cop didn't pull his gun till he was assaulted (ever been hit by an icy snowball with rocks in it? It hurts, and can put out an eye). These people were obviously hoping for exactly what happened. Why aren't they in jail?
momof4 at December 21, 2009 7:58 AM
>>It hurts, and can put out an eye
SUCH a mommy comment!
(Not a snark, momof4, I've used it myself!)
Jody Tresidder at December 21, 2009 8:06 AM
Bradley there's no evidence that he'd pointed his pistol at anyone. And your other claims don't apply to police engagements.
jim bean at December 21, 2009 8:15 AM
"SUCH a mommy comment!"
I know. But my kids have lacerated my cornea, putting me in an eyepatch, 3 times now! It hurts! I'm getting paranoid about my eyes.
momof4 at December 21, 2009 8:35 AM
It was actually a "climate change" protest, the policeman was just a stand-in for a "denier".
jksisco at December 21, 2009 8:37 AM
Gee, if you look at the rest of the Daily Mail site, they're alarmed about everything.
Do remember that any of the people near the scene have legal recourse. If they cannot press charges, then it is pointless for us to be angry on their behalf.
Radwaste at December 21, 2009 8:43 AM
Wow. Off topic, but look here.
Apparently, if Amy's column is posted in the UK, a British court can find her libelous and fine her.
For citing Islam, for instance.
If ever there was an example of idiocy in unintended consequences, that would be it.
Radwaste at December 21, 2009 8:53 AM
If someone hit my Audi with a snowball, I'd be pissed. But if I was carrying a gun (and I used to) I'd not want to escalate the situation to the point where I'd have to display it, let alone use it.
A better move would have been to park a block away, call uniformed cops to the scene (Hummer dude had a cell phone), and be a witness for them while they handled it. Losing your temper whilst armed is almost never a good idea. In the best case you'll look like an ass, in the worst case someone will get killed for behaving like a child.
Steve Daniels at December 21, 2009 9:39 AM
>>Gee, if you look at the rest of the Daily Mail site, they're alarmed about everything.
Yup, that's the UKMail's MO, Radwaste.
Remember, though, the vast majority of beat cops in the UK do not carry guns. So the Mail's alarmist coverage of the snowball story is not entirely specious.
Jody Tresidder at December 21, 2009 10:11 AM
So snowballs are OK, the jury's out on snowballs with rocks in them, but dropping bowling balls from overpasses and shooting at cars is still bad?
I just want to understand where the line is this week.
MarkD at December 21, 2009 10:28 AM
> A better move would have been to...
Agreed. Apparently the guy had no clue which person delivered the first assault. His behavior was about bravado, not justice.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 10:28 AM
PS — Let's talk about this sometime.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 10:30 AM
I think he's going to find that this incident was a career altering moment.
Steve Daniels at December 21, 2009 10:44 AM
I was wondering about that. It might be OK wiht me if he did/
(Can someone tell us why the District, famously impoverished, felt compelled to put such a person in a Hummer, anyway?)
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 11:22 AM
> What model SUV is heavier than the
> garbage trucks, UPS vans and delivery
> trucks routinely supplying
> every downtown venue?
It's my understanding that he were colelcting our filth or delivering something bulky, the mass would be permissible. But our mayor is not that usefull.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 11:26 AM
Idiots. They can say he overreated, but if a snowball would have distracted a driver and one of the pedestrians got ran over those same know it alls would complain the police just watched it.
Trust at December 21, 2009 11:36 AM
Idiots. They can say he overreated, but if a snowball would have distracted a driver and one of the pedestrians got ran over those same know it alls would complain the police just watched it.
Trust at December 21, 2009 11:36 AM
"It's my understanding that he were colelcting our filth or delivering something bulky, the mass would be permissible. But our mayor is not that usefull."
So, no, the weight citation had no merit. Please use the hyperbole flag next time.
Radwaste at December 21, 2009 1:52 PM
Hey Raddy! I keep your "hyperbole flag" right here, in my pants. Don't forget to salute.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at December 21, 2009 4:16 PM
My pants have merit!
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 21, 2009 4:17 PM
Did you see the woman with the drum? This was some sort of "flash mob" protest. This wasn't a friendly snowball fight that slipped into the street. Who brings a drum to a snowball fight?
However, it was wrong, cop or not, for him to get out of the car. As a cop, he should of known better not to face a mob without back up. He should have staying in the car and waited for back up. Taking his gun out of it's holster was just stupid. He should thank his lucky stars that no one in the crowd had a gun. How many innocent passersby could have been hurt or killed in a fire fight.
To those who belittle throwing a snowball, it can be deadly. Again, someone's startled, loses control...think. No differet than people dropping things off balcony's on to people or cars.
Carmela at December 21, 2009 5:50 PM
> Who brings a drum to a snowball fight?
Thread win
Crid [CridComment @ gmail] at December 21, 2009 5:57 PM
The throwing the snowball at a vehicle is, at minimum, attempted vandalism. Granted, that is a minor violation, but I've been car-hit before in a crappy parking lot crappy conditions with a snowball.
That he was hit by snow balls before pulling, not brandishing, his weapon should be considered assault.
I wonder what the response would have been for a civilian with a tazer or pepper spray? Some civilian "under assault" by a "superior force".
Jim P. at December 21, 2009 8:23 PM
"Don't forget to salute."
I will.
This is just wonderful. Does "Residential" zoning magically downgrade part of a street?
Does that mean that if I tow a horse trailer to Santa Clarita, I have to go rent a car to visit somebody in Venice?
Do I get to park the Yukon on a commercial road and walk the block to my house, since it's in a residential neighborhood? Does this mean I buy a commercial truck to pull my boat, which weighs 5300 pounds?
Can I bring a limousine, based on an Excursion but three times the weight, to my house? Oh, you bet I can!
California clearly has mental problems. No wonder they don't enforce the weight limit.
Radwaste at December 21, 2009 9:38 PM
Momof4: Cop didn't pull his gun till he was assaulted (ever been hit by an icy snowball with rocks in it? It hurts, and can put out an eye).
Just what I wanted to hear, a reference to A Christmas Story. They show that movie back to back consecutively on Christmas day. It wouldn't be so bad, except that the movie sucks so much.
Patrick at December 22, 2009 12:18 AM
I don't care if they were just snowballs, if they were throwing those at him, he had every right to pull his gun.
Robin's comment about the snowball refers to the Boston Massacre when a bunch of drunks were throwing rocks and snowballs at a group of redcoats. The Brits attempted to back away, but made the mistake of backing down a blind alley...and the results were predictable from there.
Patrick at December 22, 2009 12:22 AM
IF, if, if, if, if, if. Jesus Christ people we don't let cops or anyone else draw guns on people based on what could have happened, we do so based on what actually happened.
There were no ice balls, there were no rocks packed in the snowballs, there was no riot, there was no danger of serious bodily harm or death. The vehicle was stopped at a light when it was hit with snowballs, not careening down a mountain pass. The cop was out of line, and for once, the police brass are actually doing something about it.
Just because it is conceivable that someone could pack a snowball full of razorblades soaked in AIDS infected blood, doesn't give this guy or anyone else the right to act like it is so.
Scott at December 22, 2009 8:25 AM
Just because it's only snow, doesn't give these fuckers or anyone else the right to throw it at people or property.
The Christmas Story and a bottle of wine is DH's and mine's Christmas Eve, putting together the toys ritual. I love it. And the correct line is, "You'll shoot your eye out". At least get the quote right.
momof4 at December 22, 2009 10:03 AM
Ah, the old "But his gun wasn't loaded" defense.
Someone throws a snowball at my car, I go after them. You don't fuck with a man's ride. You just don't.
brian at December 22, 2009 1:09 PM
Have to point out a couple of things. For just plain citizens they don't apply to DC because the peasants aren't allowed to carry for self-defense:
First, one of the things taught here in CCW classes is that drawing a gun is considered using lethal force, even if you don't fire a shot; and you can only use that level of force in certain circumstances. Which snowballs generally are not.
Second: don't know about DC, but here 'brandishing' includes holding it in open sight or opening a coat(for instance) to flash the sidearm to show off or to intimidate; you don't have to point it at someone for that to apply.
Last: any cop knows that the last thing you generally want to do is escalate a situation, which drawing that gun did. Plus, once you draw it you have to do something with it: either use it or put it away.
I'm very aware of the hazards of idiots throwing stuff at vehicles; but that doesn't reach the level of need for lethal force. Cop or not.
One more thing: say these people were indeed looking to cause a problem with a cop: well, he gave them exactly what they wanted. A while back there was a video online from a guys car, he had a camera going due to past problems with local police. He was stopped in a parking lot and the cop behaved in a manner that hopefully got him fired, including threatening "I can charge you with anything I want, I can jail you if I want and you can't do anything about it." There were a bunch of people defending the cop because "He was set up!", but as one cop pointed out, if he WAS set up, it only worked because he was an arrogant, badge-heavy jerk; if he'd behaved in a proper manner the video/audio would have shown that. This guy blew it. Maybe he was stressed, maybe a really bad week, but he still blew it.
Firehand at December 24, 2009 8:10 PM
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