Too Fat To Fly?
Southwest Air threw director Kevin Smith off a flight. He tweeted it. It's got to be embarrassing, awful, inconvenient, and more to have this happen, but well, I sure don't enjoy, as I put it in my book, sitting next to somebody so big they "annex your seat like they're Germany and you're Poland." Here are his tweets:
• Dear @SouthwestAir - I know I'm fat, but was Captain Leysath really justified in throwing me off a flight for which I was already seated? about 3 hours ago from Echofon• Dear @SouthwestAir, I flew out in one seat, but right after issuing me a standby ticket, Oakland Southwest attendant Suzanne (wouldn't give
• last name) told me Captain Leysath deemed me a "safety risk". Again: I'm way fat... But I'm not THERE just yet. But if I am, why wait til my
• bag is up, and I'm seated WITH ARM RESTS DOWN. In front of a packed plane with a bunch of folks who'd already I.d.ed me as "Silent Bob."
• So, @SouthwestAir, go fuck yourself. I broke no regulation, offered no "safety risk" (what, was I gonna roll on a fellow passenger?). I was
• wrongly ejected from the flight (even Suzanne eventually agreed). And fuck your apologetic $100 voucher, @SouthwestAir. Thank God I don't
• embarrass easily (bless you, JERSEY GIRL training). But I don't sulk off either: so everyday, some new fuck-you Tweets for @SouthwestAir.
Found a photo. The man isn't exactly slim.
The man's a multi-millionaire: A. He can afford to fly 1st class on a real airline; B. He can afford a gym membership and personal trainer.
Dennis at February 13, 2010 10:21 PM
I love Kevin Smith. If he fit in his seat with the armrests down, he's no worse to me than any fit fuck who thinks they own the row, and lord knows I've sat by them before.
I'd be honored to have his excess girth invade my space, especially if I could converse with him, or just listen to him, during the flight.
Pricklypear at February 13, 2010 10:25 PM
Fat, yes, but a safety risk? Something's wrong with this story. I've seen plenty of people who are equally fat or fatter on Southwest flights. And he does claim to have had the arm rests down, which should prevent the Germany/Poland problem. Some relevant info is clearly missing.
Virginia at February 13, 2010 10:26 PM
Maybe the pilot just didn't like "Dogma".
Pricklypear at February 13, 2010 10:32 PM
I fly all the time for work and often coast to coast. Sorry, Kevin Smith might be a great guy and posed no safety hazard, but very overweight people spill into the next seat. I don't think it is mean or unreasonable for me to expect my seat to be my seat for 5 hours on an already cramped plane. If you are overweight to that extent, like Kevin is, then you need to buy 2 seats if the plane is full and you otherwise can't be accommodated with 2 seats. If that makes me mean in the eyes of some then I suggest you get a job that requires a lot of flying.....then come back and talk on this subject.
TW at February 13, 2010 10:36 PM
The pilot was right.
And if YOU want to book the seat next to him, that's fine, but it's not how it works.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 13, 2010 10:38 PM
It's all just a plot to get the passengers to hate each other instead of the airlines.
The only real solution is to make fewer, larger seats, increase checked-bag security and end the overhead bin wars, and increase prices to cover their need to make a profit.
$39 to fly cross-country is not the price. $39 plus a rectal exam by a GED candidate with a badge plus hand-to-hand combat for an overhead bin plus getting squeezed between two 300 pound people (married couple who took the aisle and window seats) is the actual price.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 13, 2010 10:50 PM
OK, so what does your name mean?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 13, 2010 11:02 PM
They say inside every fat person, there's a skinny person inside waiting to come out. Kevin Smith looks like he's got six or seven inside him.
Patrick at February 14, 2010 2:08 AM
Virginia: Fat, yes, but a safety risk? Something's wrong with this story. I've seen plenty of people who are equally fat or fatter on Southwest flights. And he does claim to have had the arm rests down, which should prevent the Germany/Poland problem. Some relevant info is clearly missing.
The arm rests down does not solve the Germany/Poland issue by any means. As one who has sat by his share of obese slobs, I can tell you, they're fully capable of oozing over the armrests.
Patrick at February 14, 2010 2:12 AM
No such thing as "first class" on Southwaste Airlines. All seats are the same size.
I thought they were supposed to tell the bigguns that they needed to buy 2 seats, not throw them off the plane.
Pinko Perforator at February 14, 2010 3:20 AM
This is going to be EPIC.
You shouldn't try and make these rules apply to famous people. They are better than us, have more contacts, and have the power to turn the media against you with the wave of a hand.
And Kevin's fans are rabid.
EPIC.
Vinnie Bartilucci at February 14, 2010 6:54 AM
I love southwest. I just booked a flight with them last night to LA, and this makes me so happy I spent my money with them. Armrests down in no way keeps the lard in their own seat. I am tired of fat people thinking they run the world, and the rest of us need to squeeze over to make room for them. Buy the space you take up, or stay home!
momof4 at February 14, 2010 7:26 AM
There's nothing worse than seeing a fucking fat man weep.
Eric at February 14, 2010 7:34 AM
If you are going to use part of my seat, you should pay for it.
Airlines ought to charge by the pound.
MarkD at February 14, 2010 7:55 AM
The only way I could fly without being annoyed by someone would be to fly alone. If we have to get rid of obese people because they are somewhat bothersome (by taking too much room) then I would have to say get rid of smokers, perfume wearers, the bad breathed lest's see...the constant movers, the ones that need to use my seat to leverage themselves out of their own, the loud ones, the complainers...
I am not worried about 1 fat guy - it's the rest of the freaking world that bothers the hell out of me.
karen at February 14, 2010 8:01 AM
Look, I like Kevin, too, but seriously? He shoulda bought 2 seats or gone for 1st class on another airline. It isn't like he doesn't have the jing, ya know.
Flynne at February 14, 2010 8:09 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695426">comment from karenPeople need to be reminded to be more considerate. I thought twice about putting on Opium this morning, my favorite perfume, because I don't want to torture anyone on an airplane. We're flying home late enough (in the evening) that it was okay, but I do realize some people are very, very sensitive to smells. It's part of the reason I got a Yorkshire terrier, one of the few dogs that has hair, not fur. My very allergic-to-everything friend has no problem being around Lucy or even having her on her lap for hours.
A few tips: try to go to the bathroom before you get on the plane if you, like me, like to take the window seat. Notice when it would seem to be a good time for you to get up, vis a vis your seatmate or seatmates (before they go to sleep, take out their computer). When the flight attendant is serving coffee, say "Coffee black, please," or "Coffee, cream no sugar, please," so they only have to ask 399 instead of 400 people how they'd like their coffee.
Other people exist. Take notice of that and be nice to them.
PS If you put on nailpolish while seated on a plane I am on, I will cause you internal injuries merely with the power of my hatred.
Amy Alkon at February 14, 2010 8:31 AM
I was on a flight into DC from Rome on Thursday. Saw one extremely obese woman at the check in and thought my luck if I get a seat next to her. I didn't and for the first time on any flight in about 15 years it was blessedly almost half empty. I had a row to myself and slept a good part of the trip however the security I had to endure to get on a United flight in Rome was the most hassle I had ever been through. My husband was flying back to his destination (different than mine) on Lufthansa and he waltzed on through the security process. Those flying United were not so lucky. I got home to remember my number one pet peeve of rude behavior. That is, people who fill their car with gas and then leave it parked at the pump, blocking the pump while they go in and mess around for 15 or 20 minutes at the convenience store. I went to get gas Friday only to find that all eight pumps were blocked and only two of those were actively pumping gas. The rest of the customers were MIA. Isabel
Isabel1130 at February 14, 2010 8:45 AM
My mother is so scent-sensitive that I once had to quit using my favorite shampoo because just being around me with the faint lingering aroma on my hair gave her a headache. So, thanks Amy for rethinking the perfume on the airplane! :)
I cannot even imagine how anyone could do their nails on a plane. If someone broke out the polish-remover, I think it would be grounds for the passengers to take justice into their own hands. ;)
Melissa G at February 14, 2010 9:01 AM
the issue isn't Kevin per se, although he is one of those people that can be quite upset at not getting their way/beliving their own hype.
The issue is there are no set rules for this, and he thought there were... i.e. as long as he fits in the seat with the armrests down. Just as with the overhead luggage that no-one bothers fitting through the template, there needs to be a specific measurment for this. It can't actually be by weight, since I know a number of athletic types that weigh a lot more than they look. So simply having people walk across a scale won't work either. The problem isn't near as simple as it seems. There are tons of things that people do on airplanes that are covered under "being righteous to each other, dude!" but how militant do we want to be with that?
Many things can be solved with buying an extra seat, and #1 in my book is lap-held infants, shouldn't be allowed... but there has to be a meaningful guideline that you can use yourself to guage this oversize, and NOT when you are actually in the seat waiting to take off. Kevin flies ALL THE DAMN TIME. If this is the first time he had encountered this, why shouldn't he be mad? Why didn't they stop him at checkin?
A side Q? If you book two seats, and they overbook the flight, will they make you give one up? And then what was the point?
SwissArmyD at February 14, 2010 10:41 AM
I DO see this as a safety issue. What happens when you have to 'deplane' quickly? Do YOU want to be on the other side of this guy? Behind him? I certainly don't.
Tena at February 14, 2010 11:09 AM
Tena's got a point. I think of that when I see older & wheelchair people, too. I remember flying a thousand miles with an elderly person with Alzheimers and a broken hip a few years ago... Hate to imagine what would have happened –to her, myself, and a hundred others– if we'd had to ditch in the Hudson. Smith's weight approaches morbidity.
> The only way I could fly without being annoyed
> by someone would be to fly alone.
Karen's got a point, too. But let's not pretend that these problems can't be, or aren't, solved by courtesy.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 11:16 AM
Hey, karen, you wana come bak to my place and help me kill all humans?
lujlp at February 14, 2010 11:31 AM
If you just mean the rude ones, and Karen drops out, let me know.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 11:43 AM
Notice that Smith explicitly confesses feel extra-harshed because he was squeezing some celebrity juice when it all went down... "In front of a packed plane with a bunch of folks who'd already I.d.ed me as 'Silent Bob.'"
And the other people are right... His retreat to the argument that somehow the arm rests are the Maginot line for borders of personal space is preposterous: "why wait til my bag is up, and I'm seated WITH ARM RESTS DOWN." Or is he arguing that getting them into position was a terrible chore for him? Aren't they shared, in any case?
There's an argument to be had here, but I'm thinking this Captain Leysath guy has the makings of a hero.
I sympathize with big people, truly (170 / 5' 7", and thanks for asking)... Many of my best friends, etc. But there's a whole nexus of intrusions and discourtesies and safety considerations in airliners, and nobody has the right to be an asshole... Especially when they could have had their asshole-battle on the ground, either on the phone with the sales agent or at the ticket counter, but decided to take their chances once all their fellow passengers were already involved in the tight scramble of boarding.
To get pissed off when you're seated "seated WITH ARM RESTS DOWN" is a tactic, not a further offense.
Also, I've never liked any of his movies, and walked out of the only one I bought a ticket for. Boyfriend owe$ me.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 12:04 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695458">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]I'm with you, Crid. I took a flight recently where I think the guy in my row (about Smith's size, I think) bought two seats. That's the polite thing to do. You don't get to land-grab part of a seat space somebody else has paid for, just because you're huge -- whether you're fat or just gigantic. Nor does the airline owe you two seats. Spanish proverb I like: "Take what you need, but pay for it."
Amy Alkon at February 14, 2010 12:15 PM
So, Tena and Crid, are you advocating that only the mentally and physically fit be allowed to fly?
Why does the pilot get to make this decision? Or the flight attendant?
This should have been handled before his baggage was even accepted for checking. If Southwest has a policy where you can be kicked off a flight for being too large, then it should be strong enough to stop you from boarding or even checking in.
brian at February 14, 2010 12:36 PM
Spanish proverb I like: "Take what you need, but pay for it."
Cool! I need one seat and about 5% of the space to left and right so I should go ahead and take all that and pay 110% of the cost of my one ticket alone. Too bad the airlines don't allow this. Actually if I just get the armrest space on both sides I am ok for short flights even though I am not sitting naturally or comfortablly so how does that work?
How does that work for a person who needs more legroom if they cannot get an exit row? If they purchase the seat in from of them, that does no good.
Hmm...great principle, but not affect when it comes to the airline sitting situation.
It looks like, based on size, business room is about 125% of economy. I would be willing to 125% of economy for a business sized seat. Not the 10x they usually charge.
The Former Banker at February 14, 2010 1:46 PM
It does annoy me that he was allowed to take his first flight, but not his second. I hate it when airlines pull that shit. This past Christmas, we each had 2 bags, which we understood was normal for international flights. We flew from Philly to Basel, NP. Basel to Vienna, NP. But when we were flying from Vienna to Philly, they suddenly told us we had too many bags and would be charged for them. WTF?
Consistancy would be nice.
NicoleK at February 14, 2010 2:13 PM
NicoleK: Consistancy would be nice.
Maybe he gained weight between flights.
Kevin, quitcher bitchin' and lose weight, you obese slob!
Patrick at February 14, 2010 2:36 PM
"His retreat to the argument that somehow the arm rests are the Maginot line for borders of personal space is preposterous" Crid.
this wins for amusement... becasue how often is flying a kind of silent phony war... "I swear if that kid kicks my seat again I am going postal..."
Maybe we should just buy seats by square footage, and then those of us too long could also get more...
SwissArmyD at February 14, 2010 2:36 PM
Why does he get both arm rests?
Robin at February 14, 2010 2:46 PM
I just got back from a cruise. Talk about obese people (and old, obese people, with walkers, scooting along the buffet line). Yet, I suppose the life boats are built to accommodate fat people, so there wouldn't be a safety hazard. I agree that someone his size blocking an exit row, or access out of your seat, or standing on a wing in the Hudson, could pose a serious safety risk. But I also agree that this should've been handled earlier, before he checked baggage, and certainly the policy should be the same on each flt. It shouldn't be merely at the discretion of the pilot. Put a seat at the ticket counter (somewhere inconspicuous, so as not to embarrass), and if there's spillage over or between the armrests, just like with carry-ons, train the staff to insist on a second seat purchase.
lovelysoul at February 14, 2010 3:20 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695487">comment from lovelysoulI think airline personnel often are too busy or too embarrassed to say anything.
Amy Alkon at February 14, 2010 3:46 PM
That's why I think it would be good if they had an objective standard. It wouldn't be the ticket agent just saying she thinks you're fat. That's a matter of personal opinion, and no one wants to be the one to make that call and possibly insult someone. If you can't fit in the seat, you're fat. It takes the personal aspect away.
I actually don't know why an obese person would want only one seat. They're miserable enough to sit in when you're thin.
lovelysoul at February 14, 2010 4:06 PM
I've posted this link before, but Southwest has a long-standing fat passenger policy:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124450530210396091.html
You can buy 2 adjacent seats by typing "XS" next to your name when you book your flight online. You get a Reserved Seat document for the extra seat to make sure it's not assigned to someone else, and if the flight os underbooked, you get a refund & the second seat comes free. Quite civilized, and it's not like Smith couldn't afford to buy 2 seats. The article doesn't say what Southwest does when a fat guy just shows up at the ticket counter. I think lovelysoul has the solution to that problem.
Martin at February 14, 2010 4:23 PM
Just because the armrests are down doesn't mean they aren't oozing into your seat.
They need a shape thing to stand against like there is to measure bags :-D "If you don't fit in this outline you need to purchase another seat" :-D
crella at February 14, 2010 6:18 PM
Did brian seriously ask "Why does the pilot make that decision?"
Um...dude...its because he is the PILOT.
HE is the one flying the plane, HE is responsible for getting that multiMILLION dollar piece of thousands of working parts thousands of feet into the air, from point A to point B, along with hundreds of lives, as safely as humanly possible.
HE is the final authority of what is safe and what is not on HIS plane, that is what the airline has entrusted to him to do, it is part of HIS job.
--------------
Excellent idea crella!
Robert at February 14, 2010 6:42 PM
> are you advocating that only the mentally
> and physically fit be allowed to fly?
Tempting argument, ain't it? Imagine being in the window seat next to a morbidly obese guy when you start skiing down the Hudson. Seconds are worth lives, and you're behind someone who's not in control of their body....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 7:09 PM
and —
> If Southwest has a policy where you can be
> kicked off a flight for being too large, then it
> should be strong enough to stop you from
> boarding or even checking in.
As a matter of prissy consumer righteousness, I completely agree with you. But in more legalistic terms, he could have prevented this humiliation by buying two seats beforehand, or maybe even losing weight.
Seriously, Hollywood types are all about thinking of themselves as super-competent. What's it like for such a person to seek refuge in arguments about having "ARM RESTS DOWN" (with capital letters, even)?
...Because from the outside, it looks deeply pathetic.
Listen, I like heavy people. I do. I mean I really do. I'm just saying, we each have to realize there are certain contexts were we have to go the extra mile because of who we are out here in the real world. I'm a shortish guy, so there are certain things, great things, GOLDEN things, which will never happen for me.
But there are a few good things, too, and one of them is sitting comfortably in coach. And not whining like a squirrely bitch about it.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 7:16 PM
If it was a "safety issue" then I don't care how many seats he bought, he shouldn't have been allowed to fly.
And since Southwest doesn't have a policy that even requests (much less requires) large passengers to buy multiple tickets, then the pilot ought not be able to make such an arbitrary decision.
If Kevin was too large to fly home, he was too large to have flown there in the first place.
brian at February 14, 2010 8:04 PM
ok, missed the post where Southwest does give the option.
so that counts as a request anyhow.
Does Southwest or any other airline have a stated policy where you may be asked to deplane for being too large?
brian at February 14, 2010 8:09 PM
> If it was a "safety issue" then I don't care how many
> seats he bought, he shouldn't have been allowed to fly.
Can't argue, but the convenience and comfort of the other passengers is the pilot's concern as well. They don't just promise that "We think you'll survive a ride on our airplane."
We would expect, but not remember, boilerplate language on the ticket that says "if the pilot says you're out, you're out."
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 8:16 PM
"There's nothing worse than seeing a fucking fat man weep."
Seeing a weeping fat man fuck might be worse.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 14, 2010 8:30 PM
Wow, what a bunch of pretentious assholes. So larger people are supposed to stay off planes entirely for your comfort and convenience? Just because someone isn't a size 0 means they can't fly? Real nice.
anathica at February 14, 2010 10:11 PM
Gog-
I was just noting one of my favorite Jay and Silent Bob lines.... about how Silent Bob cries at Pretty Woman...
Eric at February 14, 2010 10:13 PM
> Wow, what a bunch of pretentious assholes.
What is our pretense?
(You may well be right about the assholes thing... but 'pretentious' is fightin' words!)
> So larger people are supposed to stay off planes
> entirely for your comfort and convenience?
They may be "supposed" to stay off planes for our safety. There's not been a whole lot of discussion about that... We may have brushed up against the topic on this blog a few times in recent years, but never took it head on. It came to us this time because it came up in the news. Like Eric said above, this could turn out to be a right handsome bitchslapping contest, clarifying the matter for us all.
Meanwhile, if drastically obese people interfere with our comfort and convenience, then, like, yeah, we're against them and they should stay away from our airplanes. That's the same we feel about people who drink too much or shout too much or snore too much or do anything else to disrupt our comfort and convenience. It's not that we have anything special against fat people, nor is it like fat people deserve an extra dispensation of patience.
> Just because someone isn't a size 0 means
> they can't fly?
I hereby infer that you're a woman: Men don't know or care from "sizes"; they like body mass where they like it and not where they don't, and size isn't a useful metric for a manly judgment of beauty.
> Real nice.
Again, do you think the rest of the world is here to be nice?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 14, 2010 10:27 PM
Brian, on what basis do you judge yourself adequate to rule on what is safe or not on a given flight?
Are you a pilot? Do you work for the FAA?
Are you an aeronautical engineer?
What sort of plane did Kevin Smith take getting there? How much cargo was on it? How many people? What was its weight capacity?
How full was the one Kevin Smith was on? Its capacity, so on and so forth.
There are a myriad of factors that go into deciding these things, and I'm willing to wager you aren't qualified to judge any of them.
If you aren't going to trust the judgement of the man piloting the plane, don't fly, unless you have some other qualification that makes you think you are better suited to the decision, I'd love to hear it.
Oh and those people at boarding, look at THEIR daily responsibilities, and ask yourself if they should really be taking safety into their hands instead of the pilots?
Robert at February 14, 2010 11:18 PM
Do we really need to be reminded what killed Aaliyah?
To much weight on the damn plane: Against the advice of baggage handlers and the pilot, all the equipment from the shoot was loaded on the plane. Therefore, the aircraft exceeded the standard weight and balance tolerance limit.
The straw the broke the camel's back
The grain of rice that tipped the scales
The horrific crash due to kevin smiths supersized meals.
Let the pilots do their job, let the extra large buy two seats, and when I'm flying, let me have the small bit of space that is mine.
Robert at February 14, 2010 11:23 PM
Wow, what a bunch of pretentious assholes. So larger people are supposed to stay off planes entirely for your comfort and convenience? Just because someone isn't a size 0 means they can't fly? Real nice.
Pretentious? Right. I want the seat I paid for, and if your ass and gut are spilling over into it, you can buy another for them; you don't get to take mine over, no charge.
Amy Alkon at February 14, 2010 11:39 PM
Interestingly, according to the response from southwest themselves, apparently Keven Smith normally buys two seats for himself, but was stuck in one when going on standby.
http://www.blogsouthwest.com/blog/not-so-silent-bob
So, apparently, he does try to do the right thing, but got hamstrung on standby.
Rod at February 15, 2010 1:07 AM
Crid
"Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers" is a Firesign Theatre reference, tho he got it wrong. "Magog Brothers Atlantis Carpet Reclaimers" appear on Everything You Know Is Wrong in a commercial as Rebis Knebis prepares to jump into the hole the comet bored into the center of the earth. Magog Brothers' showroom and warehouse was dead-center of the impact crater.
"My God! It's Magog Brothers!"
Vinnie Bartilucci at February 15, 2010 6:55 AM
Robert -
No, I'm not a pilot or an aeronautical engineer.
But I find it highly doubtful that SWA is running their 737s (and yes, they have nothing but, so that answers your question about what Smith flew in on) so close to operating margin that an extra 200 pounds made a safety hazard.
I'm guessing that even if he had been allowed both of his seats the pilot would have thrown him off because the pilot was more interested in being an asshole.
Airplanes are not rocket science. The crew that overloaded Aaliyah's plane were fucking morons. They knew that plane was too heavy to TAKE OFF, never mind cruise.
I don't think Kevin would have pushed the 737 over its limits. Again, I doubt SWA or any of the major commercial carriers run their planes right at the margin. That's bad mojo, just plain dumb.
brian at February 15, 2010 8:50 AM
Amy, thanks for your consideration regarding not wearing perfume on a plane. My hubby has developed severe asthmatic reactions to the aldehydes and ketones in perfumes, air fresheners, and other scented products. It is nice to read that someone respects others in this way.
As for traveling by plane - 30 years ago it was a pretty classy way to get around, but now I'd rather drive unless time is a constraint or flying is the only way to get there.
Our daughter works at a large teaching hospital, and the wheelchairs now have to be supersized. When she went into the clinic for an endoscopy, the staff joked that 3 people her size could've fit in the seat. They ended up putting pillows on either side of her in case she needed the support while recovering from anesthesia. One size does not fit all by any means.
About your Yorkie - we had a Silky Terrier for 14 years with the same shedless quality. Beautiful, human-like long fur but not a problem for the allergic. We miss her - she was a big dog in a small body!
tnxplant at February 15, 2010 10:10 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695607">comment from tnxplantI try to avoid torturing people, and to do that, I have to think about what might make somebody's life horrible. I heard about this chemical sensitivity maybe in the 90s, and ever since, I've been careful not to wear perfume to movie theaters, on planes, or anywhere somebody will have to be next to me for a period of time.
Sorry about your Yorkie...that pretty much describes the three-pound dog in the purple sweater now sleeping in my lap.
Amy Alkon at February 15, 2010 10:15 AM
I just read a SW statement explaining that Mr. Smith initially booked 2 seats then tried to take an earlier flt:
"Mr. Smith originally purchased two Southwest seats on a flight from Oakland to Burbank -- as he has previously done when traveling on Southwest. He decided to board an earlier flight to Burbank and approached the Southwest counter to fly standby. As you may know, airlines are not able to clear standby passengers until all Customers are boarded. When the time came to board Mr. Smith, we realized that we only had a single seat available for him to occupy...."
"As a Company committed to serving our Customers in Safety and comfort, we feel the definitive boundary between seats is the armrest. If a Customer cannot comfortably lower the armrest and infringes on a portion of another seat, a Customer seated adjacent would be very uncomfortable and a timely exit from the aircraft in the event of an emergency might be compromised if we allow a cramped, restricted seating arrangement."
He really has no right to complain since he was the one who changed his flt. Then, he must've tried to squeeze into one seat when he knew he needed two.
lovelysoul at February 15, 2010 10:32 AM
He really has no right to complain since he was the one who changed his flt. Then, he must've tried to squeeze into one seat when he knew he needed two.
So he knew, but pitched a hissy anyway. Ah well, the price of fame and all that...
Flynne at February 15, 2010 11:27 AM
But Flynne!... You don't understand!! His ARM RESTS WERE DOWN!!!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 11:52 AM
> a commercial as Rebis Knebis prepares to
> jump into the hole
He's not from around here, but a real square little fella.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 11:56 AM
> Do we really need to be reminded what
> killed Aaliyah?
It's especially relevant. At the time, Steyn put it like this:
A Bahamian baggage handler warned the pilot they were putting too much on board, but Aaliyah's entourage told 'em to quit being so picky, they needed to get back to Miami. Then her 300-lb bodyguard and another man of similar weight boarded the Cessna and finding themselves unable to squeeze up the narrow aisle lowered themselves into the two rear seats by the door. With skinny Aaliyah up the front and the two heavy dudes and all the bags at the rear, the Cessna wobbled up into the air and came down almost immediately. Unlike the deaths of Glenn Miller, Buddy Holly, Patsy Cline, Lynyrd Skynyrd or John Denver, this is one pop-star rendezvous with destiny you can't put down to mechanical malfunction or poor weather conditions. Instead, as London's Daily Mirror headlined it, "Fat Guard Caused Air Crash." He was Aaliyah's bodyguard, but in the end the only thing she needed guarding from was his body.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 12:03 PM
>I cannot even imagine how anyone could do their nails on a plane. If >someone broke out the polish-remover, I think it would be grounds for >the passengers to take justice into their own hands. ;)
Actually I don't think that nail polisher or nail remover are allowed inside the passenger's cabin... aren't they kind of hazardous material (inflammable)?
Lourdesv at February 15, 2010 2:06 PM
I wish they would make tall people buy the seat in front of them. I hate sitting in front of tall people and not being able to put the seat back, and having them jam their knees into my back the whole flight. Happens to me far more than sitting next to a fat person.
NicoleK at February 15, 2010 3:14 PM
OK advice "goddess" exactly how current is your picture? What is your proposed BMI standard for major airlines? Should Kevin Smith walk to his next destination?
I'm rather choking on the irony of this post, coming from a published author on the subject of etiquette. Tsk tsk.
Fname at February 15, 2010 3:14 PM
And since Southwest doesn't have a policy that even requests (much less requires) large passengers to buy multiple tickets, then the pilot ought not be able to make such an arbitrary decision.
The Captain is as close to being God as it is possible to get on this mortal coil. There is absolutely nothing Southwest, or the court system, or even the President can do about it.
But I find it highly doubtful that SWA is running their 737s (and yes, they have nothing but, so that answers your question about what Smith flew in on) so close to operating margin that an extra 200 pounds made a safety hazard.
I don't the specifics of this case, but I do know that airlines calculate weight to within 100 pounds. [Blizzard of pilot talk omitted] means there is a maximum gross weight for the airplane, beyond which takeoff is not permitted. If the airplane is too heavy, and I have seen it happen, then people get bought off the plane. It's not dumb, it is physics.
That calculation includes the number of passengers, times theaverage weight per passenger, plus average carry-on weight, plus the actual weight of checked baggage. IIRC, about 10 years ago the FAA upped the average passenger weight by something like 12 pounds. (Which, BTW, meant DC-9s could no longer fly between the eastern US and the west coast because there was no longer enough performance margin to clear the Rockies in the event of an engine failure at altitude.)
So, if it is just one guy squashing the scale, then there are enough margins built in to compensate for that.
But if the airplane is taking a bunch of people who are headed for the Society for the Advancement of Gravitationally Gifted Americans, then think about changing your travel plans.
Hey Skipper at February 15, 2010 3:32 PM
Skip -
I didn't realize they were willing to operate that close to the edge. That's kinda scary, actually.
I mean, if their planning margins are (MAXWEIGHT - 100) then there's not a whole lot of room to wiggle.
If that's the case, then (1) I retract my observation about the pilot and (2) I'm never flying commercial again.
brian at February 15, 2010 3:41 PM
Skip - one more thing - I've seen the passenger weight thing come in to play on the little CRJ type 35-seaters. I didn't realize that a couple fatsos could throw off a 737 just as easily.
brian at February 15, 2010 3:44 PM
@Eric "just noting one of my favorite Jay and Silent Bob lines"
Sorry about that, totally missed the reference. I blame three days of 102 degree fever. Yikes. My response does seem a bit harsh.
Vinnie, Vinnie, Vinnie -- and here I thought I was wandering all alone in the desert, drinking the blue moss and pining for a cold Whiz.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 15, 2010 4:00 PM
> a published author on the subject of
> etiquette. Tsk tsk.
Tsk Tsk? This is like the woman (anathica) above who clucks about people being "Real nice". These clucks demonstrate a deeper, more-wounded sarcasm than any offense from the rest of us could warrant.
Being a courteous person doesn't mean avoiding conflicts with people. More to the point, the fact that people in general are trying to be pleasant doesn't mean you get to pout like a sullen teenager when your boundary violations are discussed. As it has on this blog more than once in the past, this post from another blogger comes to mind.
If you don't have your own conduct in order, even the nicest people are going to hurt your feelings.
Crid [Cridcomment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 4:09 PM
> I thought I was wandering all alone
> in the desert
Just goes to show: If you dig a hole that's deep enough, everyone will want to jump into it.
Crid [Cridcomment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 4:11 PM
Dear Gog_Magog_Easily_Amused_by_Self,
>These clucks demonstrate a deeper, more-wounded sarcasm than any >offense from the rest of us could warrant.
You're reading too much in. The question isn't whether Kevin Smith would have downed the plane or even if TWA acted improperly, but rather, "is it in poor taste to publicly poke fun at a fat person without generating a substantive discussion?"
For the average snarky blogger flailing for content, maybe not; for a self-proclaimed etiquette expert promoting a book about *not* being rude on same said blog, yes. Btw - snark is getting played out. Try a different channel.
Fname at February 15, 2010 4:35 PM
Y'know, that's twice someone has attributed a post to me that wasn't mine. Has scrolling up become a lost art?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 15, 2010 5:35 PM
> The question isn't whether Kevin Smith would
> have downed the plane or even if TWA acted
> improperly
And yet, that's what we've been discussing (except that it was SWA, not TWA): We'll tell you what the topic is, thank you very much. Liberty fantasies to the contrary, this (the snarky blogsophere) is not a resonant lecture hall in which a humorless scold can stand at a podium to tell the rest of us which topics are permitted.
> but rather, "is it in poor taste
> to publicly poke fun at a fat person
> without generating a substantive
> discussion?"
Merely being fat isn't what put this guy in our crosshairs... There was a bunch of other conduct, too. And the thoughtful participants here –the people, unlike yourself, who've not been squealing like topic police– have had a plenty "substantive" exchange. Kevin Smith has more fans here than dissatisfied customers.
> for a self-proclaimed etiquette expert
> promoting a book about *not* being rude
The rudeness was Smith's. ('Don't you understand? The ARM RESTS WERE DOWN... What was I supposed to do? The die was cast, the cat was out of the bag, the genie was out of the bottle, it was a fait accompli....')
And for the record, Amy's book was about responding to rude people... And here we are.
> Try a different channel.
It's not television. There's no script.
Crid at February 15, 2010 6:29 PM
Liberal fantasies, not liberty ones. You knew that....
Crid at February 15, 2010 6:30 PM
Bravo Brian for having come to the correct conclusion.
Although perhaps never flying again might be an over reaction, after all, the pilot did the right thing.
And I can't imagine a pilot not doing so, after all, they're not worried about a lawsuit from some fat guy pissed about having been deplaned, no, they're in the plane with you, worried about a safe landing.
Another reason why their judgement must remain absolute, instead of left with people who aren't on board the plane.
Robert at February 15, 2010 6:33 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695692">comment from CridThanks, Crid, for clarifying that about my book.
My book is, in large part, about how I go after those boors who are stealing from the rest of us: our time, our peace of mind, our good night's sleep, and our airline seat, which they take over with their flab instead of doing the considerate thing and buying two seats.
I'm deeply concerned with whether my behavior is bothering other people. Lucy barked twice outside today -- probably because she saw a squirrel. I ran right out and picked her up and brought her in. Why? Because, as I've written before, my neighbors' sleep, phone conversations, and enjoyment of their apartments should not be disturbed simply because I choose to have a pet.
Here, I'll help you with the basics behind that: "Don't inflict yourself on people."
And if people are being inflicted upon, and they aren't the sort to speak up, but it really isn't a lot of skin off your back, say something.
Amy Alkon at February 15, 2010 8:49 PM
So what do you do as a passenger when you find yourself swept under a tidal wave of some over-large seat-mate, and the airline DOESN'T do anything about it?
I can't tell the person to be less fat. They're probably wishing they could sink through the floor already.
The worst problems I've had weren't with hugely fat people, though. There was this one couple flying back from Vegas, and they were both pretty chubby, but the worst part was that they bickered most unpleasantly and every time she got pissed the wife would jab ME in the ribs.
I fantasized about placing a bamboo skewer at her elbow and muttering under my breath, "Just try it one more time motherfucker". Of course, we are not allowed to bring bamboo skewers onto airplanes anymore. I was ready to kill her.
The jabbing did stop before I had to rip her lungs out of her body, but what could I have done, other than insist upon being moved up to first class immediately?
vi at February 15, 2010 8:55 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695695">comment from FnameOK advice "goddess" exactly how current is your picture? What is your proposed BMI standard for major airlines? Should Kevin Smith walk to his next destination? I'm rather choking on the irony of this post, coming from a published author on the subject of etiquette. Tsk tsk.
Boyfriend took picture in August, I believe. I weigh less than I did in high school (and I was skinny then), but I don't starve myself or EVER eat "diet" food. Details on how you can do this (including book and blog recommendation) below.
Shot of me full-length, in a yellow evening dress, taken this September, I think (maybe October), here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201001/applied-evolutionary-psychology-its-best (scroll down to bottom of page). I'm thinner now from eating a lot of bacon, butter-soaked asparagus, and well-marbled steak. Seriously. Again, details below.
Kevin Smith should do as I believe the polite man in my row on a Southwest Flight did and buy two seats for his apparently doublewide ass.
It appears you think other passengers should just deal when he spills over on them. If so, why? Don't you believe in getting what you pay for? If you order a sandwich, and you're paying for the whole thing, wouldn't you object if I reached over the restaurant booth table divider and grabbed half?
Also, if you're fat, and wish not to be (that's the tone of your e-mail, as I read it, anyway), go to my Amy's Mall and buy Gary Taubes' book, Good Calories, Bad Calories, and check in regularly at Dr. Michael Eades' site, http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/
Carb consumption causes the excess insulin secretion that puts on fat. I had a friend eat only bacon, eggs, hamburgers and steak, and no alcohol, just sparkling water, for a month, and he lost 17 pounds, sans exercise, and his blood pressure went from high to normal.
Oh, and until you slim down, we'll thank you for buying two airlines seats instead of (sorry for the rerun) annexing ours like you're Germany and we're Poland.
Amy Alkon at February 15, 2010 9:07 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695696">comment from FnameWow - this is creepy. I just got a nasty one-star review on Amazon from somebody who signs herself S.E.D. on Amazon, and she's based in Silver Spring, MD, and guess where Fname's IP address traces to? Maybe just a coincidence, but perhaps I wrongly assumed she's a friend of the whack job woman from Santa Monica who posted another one-star review on Amazon. That woman apparently met me in a cafe (I'm guessing she was on her cell and I asked her to put a sock in it), and disliked me, and she even tracked down my agent to try to hurt our relationship...which is how I know her name.
Oh, and in case anybody has any question about my skills as a detective, it took me about 20 minutes, but I know this S.E.D woman's full name, including her middle name, and her husband's name and their home address and price of their house! Oh yeah, and what she does for a living. I don't plan to do anything with this information, I just like to know who's trying to hurt me and my book sales. Whatta jerk. (Fine if you read my book and dislike it and post your honest opinion, but I'll eat my desk chair with a side of lowfat cottage cheese -- blech! -- if this woman has.)
Lady, sorry if you're fat and if you believe other people should subsidize you for that. Your thighs belong in the seat YOU paid for, and not the seat I paid for. Any objections, please present a rational argument for why you or any other passenger should be able to glob over on me.
Amy Alkon at February 15, 2010 9:18 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695700">comment from viSo what do you do as a passenger when you find yourself swept under a tidal wave of some over-large seat-mate, and the airline DOESN'T do anything about it?
You need to ask the airline to do something about it. If you don't get what you paid for in some other venue, wouldn't you do that? You bought a whole seat, not 3/4 of a seat, plus it's unpleasant to have some person you do not love and want touching you flabulating all over you.
Options: Airline can move you to a new seat. Move the flobulator to a new seat or seats (whether they make them pay for two is up to them). Airline can give you a voucher for another flight, since you only got part of your seat you paid for. They should also throw in something for the aggravation and icky of having some stranger be fat all over you.
And while we're at it, I should add that it's rude to bring a body-bag sized carry-on, leaving no room in the overhead for others' reasonably sized bags.
It's a big planet, with lots of people on it. Try to live as if you recognize that you aren't the only one inhabiting it.
Amy Alkon at February 15, 2010 9:40 PM
Brian:
I didn't realize they were willing to operate that close to the edge. That's kinda scary, actually.
If I was to supply the blizzard of pilot talk (which would make everyone's eyes glaze over), you would see that the edge is defined by a series of fairly conservative assumptions, and that these assumptions work so long as not too many people step over the statistical average.
Gravitationally Gifted Americans are not a safety problem if they aren't concentrated (one GGA in a row is bearable, though annoying; three just won't work), and there aren't too many, and you don't have to evacuate behind a GGA.
After having peeled off all the onion's layers, individual rights boil down to actions that society can tolerate if everyone engages in them.
GGAs on airplanes work only if most of us decline to use more than our share of gravity.
Hey Skipper at February 15, 2010 9:57 PM
Hi it's Fname again. So Advice "Goddess," you know what's creepy? Engaging to this degree with folks who leave comments you don't like. I never met other said Amazon commenter who supposedly has a vendetta against you. I never met or contacted your publisher. I don't know anything about that, I just find your work really, um, RUDE.
It's also REALLY creepy that you stalked me on the internet, but since I don't have anything to hide I haven't cloaked my email addresses in secrecy. If your sleuthing skills are all that, you've probably found my Facebook page with pics that show what my thighs and I looked like during our recent Black Belt test - so you know it's not about being fat or not, it's about being rude. And creepy.
My perfectly-reasonably-sized thighs and I will never read your work or visit your silly blog again, and will advise others to do the same. So, Peace Out. And just so you know, if you use my personal info for public harassment or for that matter come to my house and stalk me, I'll call the cops.
Fname at February 15, 2010 11:41 PM
> flabulating all over you.
Powerful new verb, but...
> Move the flobulator to a new seat
...I think you need to pick a vowel and stick with it. It'll be plenty sexual either way... You can't go wrong on this one. Just let us know before the next symposium.
> the edge is defined by a series of fairly conservative
> assumptions
I was hoping you were going to say that.
Once on a flight to Micronesia (I think) in a half-full 747, the pilot said we were heavy in the front and invited us to spread out into the rear of the craft. (We were following the Pacific sunset, and it lasted about eight hours. One of the weirdest moods I've ever known: Whole movies in a single dusk.)
> Gravitationally Gifted Americans are not a safety
> problem if they aren't concentrated
Care to comment on less-manageable or -responsive passengers generally? Alzheimer's people, the elderly, wheelchair passengers?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 11:46 PM
> It's also REALLY creepy that you stalked me
> on the internet, but since I don't have anything to hide
Isn't that kind of self-contradictory?
Listen, your internet service provider knows everything. They know what kind of sex you like, and what silly indulgent products you want to buy, and exactly how dissatisfied you are with your job. Amy looked up your city on some computerized thang after you visited her website.
• If her ability to do so readily surprises you, you're naive. She's not a computer scientist.
• If her interest in doing so frightens you ("creepy"), then perhaps you've realized too late that an internet persona is not entirely a work of fiction, and is in fact something for which you might be held accountable, in the style of other grown-up activity.
• If her reflex to respond directly to excessively aggressive conduct is unexpected, then you haven't read the book, or much of her blog, for that matter. You should've heard the one about the NOAA guy. Or the car thief. Or the guy in the Wild Oats garage. etc....
> and I will never read your work or visit your
> silly blog again, and will advise others to
> do the same.
I love when people say that. Because, y'know, they say it instead of just doing it, which would be less work.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 15, 2010 11:59 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695709">comment from FnameHi it's Fname again. So Advice "Goddess," you know what's creepy? Engaging to this degree with folks who leave comments you don't like.
Why is it creepy? As for "engaging," I merely posted on your Amazon review that, from what you say there and here, it shows rather clearly that you haven't read the book.
I really dislike people who post anonymous attacks on the Internet. If I criticize somebody, I do it in my own full name. Keeps me from the low blows, like that crack about "paranoia" on your Amazon review.
"Stalking" somebody isn't looking them up. I suggest you work on your word meanings before you use them. I just like to know who's trying to get revenge against me by hurting my book sales because they don't like some opinion I have.
Had you actually READ my book, you'd know that I've tracked down a car thief, and multiple times (he owed me restitution and he wasn't paying), and a hit and run driver (got him prosecuted, and you're welcome!) and investigated and discovered a major bombshell about Bank of America. I also tracked down an adopted friend's birth parents and have solved a few other minor cases for friends. I'm kind of an amateur Nancy Drew. I think it's kind of cute. As is your threat at the end.
Lady, I'm not interested in you. I just think it's wrong for people to post "reviews" of books they haven't read -- "reviews" that are really about hurting the book sales of an author whose opinion about fat people taking up two seats on planes they disagree with.
How about you go about doing a bunch of nice for a bunch of people you encounter this month to make up for all the ugly you shat on me. For advice on nice things you can do, see Chapter 10 of my book, titled "It's Nice To Be Nice."
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 12:04 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695710">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]> and I will never read your work or visit your
> silly blog again, and will advise others to
> do the same.
I love when people say that. Because, y'know, they say it instead of just doing it, which would be less work.
Crid, you're the best.
Unfortunately, we know what always happens next, so...
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 12:07 AM
Um, Fname, finding out your personal info need not involve "stalking." Anytime you post on a website, the moderator/host has access to your IP, which carries with it oodles of "personal" information. Maybe you should think about that before you post here or elsewhere.
And as for engaging with people whose comments she doesn't like, I have been lurking on this blog long enough to know that Amy welcomes disagreement on her site. I started posting here (and only here) because I have found it to be a place of rational, humorous discussion. Crid disagrees with Amy on certain subjects, yet he was the first to take apart your comment. As long as the comments do not denigrate into name-calling garbage, all are welcome. But if you come in with your attitude, you should expect the people here to take exception. As far as your first post up there goes, since everything you asked was answered in the blog item at the top of the page, I can only assume that the entire purpose of your post was to embarrass Amy on her own site. I, for one, find that exceedingly rude. You have converted no one.
NumberSix at February 16, 2010 12:22 AM
Okay, in the time it took me to type that last comment, better ones were posted. So... what they said.
NumberSix at February 16, 2010 12:25 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695717">comment from NumberSixI get it -- FName is probably used to being the one in her circle of friends whose opinion people respect, and then she came here and found that what passes for logic and wit in her circle is, well, quickly decimated by the likes of Crid. Next best thing to winning fair and square for somebody like her? Well, here's her continuation on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R245GETZB7O38/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm
Amazingly, while I'm a night-owl writer, up at my usually 1am-ish hour (rather early for me on many nights), she's a regular lady on the East Coast, yet she's awake at 3am to put up and then go back and re-edit yet another little turd about my book on Amazon. Amazing how invested a lady can be in trying to hurt somebody, just because she doesn't have the chops to come out on top in a little blog debate.
Being me, I've of course kept PDFs of her pre-edited versions. Yours, Nancy Drew Alkon
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 12:55 AM
Amy is more about teaching people to have spines when they are imposed upon than she is an etiquette coach. Yeah, her responses are sometimes a bit abrasive. That's what makes her interesting and fun to read. No, she's not Judith Martin or Emily Post. Judith Martin and Emily Post are Judith Martin and Emily Post. They don't need a clone.
Amy's advice is less about becoming a more polite person and more about how to deal with rude people. Sometimes it is more effective to be a little rude back. There's a time and place for it.
To be honest, I DO think the "I know where you live" post was crossing the line. Of course you can figure it out... why announce it? It could be interpreted as a threat. Obviously, those of us who read you regularly know you aren't threatening anyone, but I can see how a noob would think so.
NicoleK at February 16, 2010 7:30 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695765">comment from NicoleKThanks so much Nicole. And I'd so appreciate it if you'd post this on Amazon. If you're so inclined -- please don't feel obligated.
This woman's the second who's done this to me. Another jerk has, too.
And let me make something clear -- if people have actually read my book and have problems with it, and post what they don't like, well, that goes with the book-writing territory. It's people abusing the Amazon system in hopes of hurting my sales that I find creepy and unbelievable.
Of course, this woman, who has shown here and on Amazon that she hasn't read a word of my book (or she'd know what it was about and how I track people down in chapter after chapter), is too small, dirty and petty to admit that she lied and remove her review.
It's something I try to avoid. I have a policy of admitting when I've been wrong -- for example, a woman at the Rose Cafe came up to me and two friends and told us we were very loud when we were screaming with laughter (hadn't seen each other for a long time and we bring out the funny in one another). Of course, the impulse is to say "Screw you," or something like that. But, I stepped back (in my head) and thought about it, and said, "You're right. We kind of got lost in our conversation. We'll be quieter."
It was a lucky thing I said that/acted that way, because this is a really cool woman, and we got to be friends because of it.
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 7:37 AM
A word of advice to Fname, and all others who cross Amy.
You know that speech in Fight Club where Tyler is explaining to the police chief that the no matter where he goes, they will be able to get at him? The one that ends with "Do not. Fuck with us."?
That's Amy to a "T".
Vinnie Bartilucci at February 16, 2010 7:42 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695779">comment from Amy AlkonSleazy bitch FName admits she hasn't read the book. Here's her comment from Amazon.
Here's my reply:
http://www.amazon.com/review/R245GETZB7O38/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1ZW639OJ69G2L&cdMsgNo=8&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdThread=Tx3AIG96S52MA7W&cdMsgID=Mx39W4W9SK9HDV#Mx39W4W9SK9HDV
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 8:49 AM
I will happily write a review! And then you'll know my maiden name if you don't already. At least, I think my amazon's in my maiden...
NicoleK at February 16, 2010 8:57 AM
Once on a flight to Micronesia (I think) in a half-full 747, the pilot said we were heavy in the front and invited us to spread out into the rear of the craft.
That was to save fuel. (Passengers moving aft shifts the CG towards the center of lift, which reduces the tail down trim required to balance the airplane. That reduces lift induced drag on both the wing and the horizontal stabilizer.)
Care to comment on less-manageable or -responsive passengers generally? Alzheimer's people, the elderly, wheelchair passengers?
Good point. Aircraft evacuations are so rare that it really isn't fair to cite any additional risk that less mobile people represent in such situations. Theoretically a problem? Sure. Practically speaking? No way.
Hey Skipper at February 16, 2010 9:08 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695789">comment from Amy AlkonLatest from the sleazy anono-bitch FName:
My reply:
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 9:17 AM
Wow. You really make her look like an idiot. lol Go, Amy!
Can you get Amazon to remove her review? I get rental reviews and sometimes the sites will let me not show ones that are particularly negative.
lovelysoul at February 16, 2010 9:50 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/14/too_fat_to_fly.html#comment-1695794">comment from lovelysoulThanks, lovelysoul - makes me feel better. And I wrote to Amazon - awaiting their reply.
If it's removed, I might not post her identity here. Probably won't, if she or they remove it. We'll see. Depends how pissed off she makes me.
I just love how people think I'll be as easy to victimize as many people are.
And P.S. My blood boils just as much when others are victimized. Gotta help my friend who's being fucked by his health insurance company.
Amy Alkon at February 16, 2010 9:55 AM
Sometimes, I get guests who do damage, and I charge their security deposits, so they'll retailiate by postings all sorts of ugly reviews. Especially when I can prove it's a vendetta like that, most sites don't want that crap on there. I'm sure if you show Amazon that this is about what happened here in your blog, not your book, they'll remove her comments.
lovelysoul at February 16, 2010 10:04 AM
Kinda wish now I'd made a point of telling the "lady" in front of me in Southwest's boarding line last night that the fact my boarding pass was 6 digits ahead of hers - which number she no doubt heard me loudly and clearly to communicate to a more polite fellow traveler who asked my number; and the fact that the numbered post she was leaning against did not correspond to her boarding pass number; and the fact they reminded us, as they alwasy do, to line up in "numerical order;" meant she belonged several spaces BEHIND me, not in front. However, I deliberately decided to take a Zen, "it doesn't matter" approach as I was well-placed for an aisle seat anyhoo, and the plane wasn't full. But I still feel the bitter bile of resentent on my throat ... [not the same vomit-in-mouth what-her-ass above felt]. Guess I have not yet achieved enlightenment ...
Mr. Teflon at February 16, 2010 12:48 PM
Wow, I just went over to Amazon and read that whole thing. F-whateverthehellhernameis is a typical garden-variety troll. And a crappy one at that.
It doesn't take a whole lot of Google Fu to figure out who someone is, especially if you have access to an IP address. People who think the Internet is completely anonymous are idiots.
Someone also needs to point out to her that she's not practicing what she preaches. Epic fail, troll. Epic fail.
Ann at February 16, 2010 2:00 PM
I dunno, defending yourself from trolls on fora like that –Amazon and Wikipedia– seems kinda twitchy.
It's important to immediately acknowledge that I've never had a reputation on any such forum to defend. But...
All the people, the bitter newpaper journalists and so forth, who complain that the internet is just a sewer are actually correct. But everything in life is a mostly worthless. We each learn how to walk into a room and size up which people we could be good friends with, and give them our attention... But just as importantly, we have count on them to make the same good judgments of us when they walk in.
It's like that in online forums. If anonymous bitter trolls are really finding traction, it's with people who were never worth cultivating anyway.
Remember that weasel from the "Sadly No" site a few years ago? He'd constructed an entire imaginary realm of bitterness and sarcasm within an internet snowglobe... While there were references to real people and real news sites, he wasn't a terribly bright guy. But most blogs aren't by terribly bright people, either.
The thing was, the whole point of it was so that he could say rude things without accountability. So he couldn't use his real name, or even sit still for any exchange long enough for someone to call his bluff.. His intellectual ecosystem was entirely closed.
Which is why any number of more successful commentary blogs have sprung up in the intervening months, and he's gone nowhere. He wasn't for real.
Because you're for real, I don't think you need to go crazyshit for every anonymous zombie who decides to unload on you with the worst of their personality. You gotta have faith at some point that the people you care about will judge them appropriately.
I feel silly for saying this, because I like to leave no argument (good or bad) unanswered here; but there's more to successful rhetoric than the last word. It's highly unlikely that this person cost you any sales.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 17, 2010 1:41 AM
Well-put, Crid.
lovelysoul at February 17, 2010 7:41 AM
shorter crid: it is unwise to argue publicly with fools. Passers-by might not see the difference.
brian at February 17, 2010 9:17 AM
"Internet snowglobe" - Crid, that's awesome!
On the whole troll thing - sometimes it's fun to set them on fire and watch them try to put themselves out. I guess it depends on my mood most of the time. This one's not worth it to me, because she sucks so hard at it. I only bat around the ones that are going to give me a good entertainment value. :D
Ann at February 17, 2010 9:19 AM
The jabbing did stop before I had to rip her lungs out of her body, but what could I have done, other than insist upon being moved up to first class immediately?
Tell her that being upset with her husband doesn't give her the right to assault you, and that she needs to stop it immediately before you request assistance from the flight staff. It really is freeing the first time you say something like that.
-Julie
JulieW at February 17, 2010 9:57 AM
> It really is freeing the first time you say
> something like that.
Not for the flight staff.
Listen, I don't mean to harsh your advice per se, but it seems like people are doing this more and more nowadays.... Or maybe I'm just become sensitized to it by second-amendment types—
But calling on authority figures to come and deal with difficult people is not the same as handling things yourself. It's very often the most moral (and certainly legal and sensible) thing you can do. That doesn't mean it's an expression of personal courage from which you can feel pride. The "liberation" you're feeling in being provided by other people, folks who usually have difficulties of their own. And therein lies the problem....
We're seeing a lot of this in places like Britain, where people who confront intrusive criminals are more likely to face prosecution and censure than are the criminals themselves. The reason the authorities do this is that they have no special reason to care who's right or who's wrong. When the police have to handle every ass-wiping incident that can happen in a neighborhood, they're going to be just as pissed at the person who made their phone ring to report a crime as they are at the criminal who actually threatens people. Why wouldn't they be? The police just want to retire, too.
When you ask government to do petty chores, don't be surprised when it does them badly.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 17, 2010 10:23 AM
But calling on authority figures to come and deal with difficult people is not the same as handling things yourself. It's very often the most moral (and certainly legal and sensible) thing you can do. That doesn't mean it's an expression of personal courage from which you can feel pride. The "liberation" you're feeling in being provided by other people, folks who usually have difficulties of their own. And therein lies the problem....
I understand your point. We don't need to run to the hall monitors each time someone does something we don't like. However, in this circumstance, we aren't talking about some idiot in the ATM line that you can go toe to toe with if need be...we are talking about a controlled environment where any disturbance can get you prosecuted as a terrorist. In that circumstance, asking for assistance can be a requirement, simply because handling it yourself can cause you to be in worse shape than if you'd done nothing. (Which, as a side bar, creates the debate about when to stand up for yourself, and when to tolerate bad behavior to avoid making the situation worse. That is a debate I have with myself regularly.)
As far as being proud, I suspect the pride I was thinking about was the first time that I informed my abusive parents that they had no right to hit me, and that unless they wanted a fist fight they better back off. I was thrown out of the house, and was rendered effectively homeless until the dorms opened back up after year end break, but it was still VERY MUCH worth it, and it is something that I am proud I had the courage to do. I recognize the difference between that and dealing with stupid people on an airplane.
-Julie
JulieW at February 17, 2010 10:51 AM
OK, but what I'm saying is the rest of the world isn't your parents... Not for ANYONE. Saying "The personal is political" gets out of hand real, real quick. Just about everything I hate about public life (from lefties especially) is the presumption that the rest of the us want to be cast into these little psychodrama skits, where we'll endlessly cycle through the same dramas over and over, just because they seem so comfy to some particular lefty. (See also the Detroit rescue, health care, etc.)
Principles aren't the same thing as rigid thinking. The real world is an endless parade of details and special cases, not the recitation of sitcom script where Good Dad comes over and fixes things. The courage of individuals is always required.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 17, 2010 11:05 AM
OK, but what I'm saying is the rest of the world isn't your parents...
The real world is an endless parade of details and special cases, not the recitation of sitcom script where Good Dad comes over and fixes things. The courage of individuals is always required.
And what I'm saying is that I agree with you and made an association in my head that didn't necessarily apply to the comment. Let's call this another 'special case'. ;-)
How would you handle the situation in question? (Person jabbing you in the ribs repeatedly on an airplane.)
-Julie
JulieW at February 17, 2010 11:10 AM
Get up all in their business, order a screwdriver, and start picking my nose (with eye contact). Then apologize and try to shake hands.
I dunno. I'm not the kind of person who attracts chest-touchers. I put out The Vibe: My ribcage is not your plaything.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 17, 2010 11:22 AM
>>my ribcage is not your plaything.
Well, damn, Crid. Another of my fantasies dashed to the ground. You don't have an aversion to bubble wrap and caramel syrup, though, right?
NumberSix at February 17, 2010 9:01 PM
I've been waiting so long for someone to ask...
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 17, 2010 10:51 PM
Good thing I came along, then, eh?
NumberSix at February 18, 2010 1:45 PM
Ive been researching this topic lately and I have to agree
Shiloh Glashen at July 7, 2010 7:15 AM
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