The Barbarians Were Restless
Free speech doesn't mean the freedom to stop others from speaking by shouting them down -- except, that is, for the Muslims Students' Union members at UC/Irvine. Nice try. Law school dean Erwin Chemerinsky writes for the LA Times:
Eleven individuals were arrested, and those who are UCI students are facing disciplinary action. In the last week, I have been deluged with messages from those saying the disruptive students did nothing wrong and deserve no punishment, and also from those saying that the students should be expelled and that others in the audience who cheered them on should be disciplined.Both of these views are wrong. As to the former, there are now posters around campus referring to the unjust treatment of the "Irvine 11" and saying they were just engaging in speech themselves. However, freedom of speech never has been regarded as an absolute right to speak out at any time and in any manner. Long ago, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes explained that there was no right to falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theater.
The government, including public universities, always can impose time, place and manner restrictions on speech. A person who comes into my classroom and shouts so that I cannot teach surely can be punished without offending the 1st Amendment. Likewise, those who yelled to keep the ambassador from being heard were not engaged in constitutionally protected behavior.
Freedom of speech, on campuses and elsewhere, is rendered meaningless if speakers can be shouted down by those who disagree. The law is well established that the government can act to prevent a heckler's veto -- to prevent the reaction of the audience from silencing the speaker. There is simply no 1st Amendment right to go into an auditorium and prevent a speaker from being heard, no matter who the speaker is or how strongly one disagrees with his or her message.
The remedy for those who disagreed with the ambassador was to engage in speech of their own, but in a way that was not disruptive. They could have handed out leaflets, stood with picket signs, spoken during the question-and-answer session, held a demonstration elsewhere on campus or invited their own speakers.
Here's the video:
And just a thought, where's the outcry for the Muslims being murdered in Africa? Oh, sorry -- those are black Muslims, and they're of little or no concern to Middle Eastern Muslims. Not to worry, Muslims! Israel is granting citizenship to hundreds of black Muslim refugees as a humanitarian gesture, just like they provide medical care for Palestinian sick people in Israel hospitals.
Is anybody high enough to think the Muslims will take in any Jews?
Aside from which, Oren is a brilliant historian.
I've been visiting family on the UCI campus in recent years, and this isn't a complete surprise. A visit to the groceries on Sunday afternoon is like a stroll through the United Nations. For all we know, maybe OC is the best possible place for these confrontations to happen (embarrassment accepted).
Also, Hitch says the fire/Holmes citation is often abused... I'll try to find a link later.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 12:49 AM
Read the first two paragraphs of yonder transcription.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 1:01 AM
And that was supposed to be embarrassment EXcepted... Though Erwin does seem to be rolling with the punch quite nicely.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 1:03 AM
One of Oren's WSJ pieces -- on Palestinian prosperity, actually:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574348292035667088.html
As the last Jews are being thrown out of Arab lands, and as Coptic Christians are murdered in Egypt.
http://www.copts.com/english/?p=3954
Hmmm!
PS One link per post unless, like me, you hold the keys to the spam vault.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 1:06 AM
I find how organized they were to be the most significant thing. They had a clear cut objective, a plan on how to achieve it. They estimated counteractions and devised a way to deal with them in advance.
Where did they gather to collude and plan their action. Who planned it. What did they use as models.
What else were they prepared for?
Mmmmm. I think there were worse things happening than denying a guest speaker the opportunity to address the crowd.
mlah at February 21, 2010 2:09 AM
Look what our President is hiding:
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/02/17/rashad-hussain%E2%80%99s-samigate/
Ken at February 21, 2010 2:53 AM
A shame. Every time I got involved in what he was saying, he was interrupted. "You, sir, are an accomplice to genocide!"
Patrick at February 21, 2010 3:39 AM
THe thing I never understood. Given more African disappered into the middle east as part of the slave trade, given that the muslim slave trade not only preceded the european/american trade by centuries but that slavey in many muslim countries was leagal until nearly 100yrs afer it was abolished in america(one of the last western powers to do so).
Given all this I cant for the life of me wrap my head around why so many black people in americ become muslims
lujlp at February 21, 2010 4:18 AM
Unreal. Oren was incredibly patient. I was so annoyed by their interruptions because I really wanted to hear what Oren had to say. Did anyone else want to smack that girl walking out in the last minute of the video?
sara at February 21, 2010 5:43 AM
All,
Please read this book.
This is happening before our very eyes.
They are trying to make this happen here, too.
http://www.amazon.com/America-Alone-End-World-Know/dp/0895260786
Ken at February 21, 2010 7:15 AM
There's the person who accomplished something and quietly proetested, creating an iconic moment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/fivelivebreakfast/blackpowersalute.jpg
And then these spoiled OC asshats. I doubt any of them would have the balls to stand up with their brothers and sisters in Teheran today.
Eric at February 21, 2010 8:55 AM
Exactly — These are protests that they couldn't offer in their home countries under any context. And were they to argue that they wouldn't need to, we'd wonder why they have to come to Irvine for their education.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 11:06 AM
I find it so odious.
http://collegelife.freedomblogging.com/2010/02/09/police-identify-12-students-arrested-at-uci/16011/
Presumably, many or most of them are guests in this country, yet disrespect our laws and traditions. I thought Oren's words about how guests should be treated were wise and civilized.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 11:16 AM
Some pictures of these curs:
http://www.theblogmocracy.com/2010/02/11/islamists-who-disrupted-ambassador-orens-speech-were-members-of-m-s-u/
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 11:18 AM
More here:
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/02/shocka-students-arrested-at-irvine-part.html#links
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 11:20 AM
Go here, and get fully enlightened.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
Ken at February 21, 2010 11:48 AM
Offtopic—
Mixed feelings from a commenter in Los Angeles. $150mil in recovered revenues is nuthin' compared to the debts from our incompetent Sacramento governance, but Amazon really has been getting away with murder. Same also with ING Direct, my internet bank: They have an office a half-mile away because I happen to be in West LA, but they provide ZERO customer support: It's all done through ATMs and branches of 'local' banks (which are themselves national an international conglomerates). This is what gets me a seven dollar return on my checking account every month.
No free lunch.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 11:55 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/21/free_speech.html#comment-1696846">comment from KenThis site, "Islam: The Religion Of Peace (and a stack of dead bodies)" is also very good:
http://thereligionofpeace.com/
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 12:00 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/21/free_speech.html#comment-1696848">comment from Amy AlkonHere's one from the site, about Jews being driven out of a Swedish City by Muslim violence against them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html
Islam is a violent, totalitarian system masquerading as a religion, and if you read just a few links on thereligionofpeace you'll see how contrary it is to western values and freedoms.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 12:04 PM
Notice the guys in those pics don't have girlfriends.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 12:07 PM
At least not that they'll allow to be photographed.
Juliana at February 21, 2010 12:25 PM
Now, let us remember that Columbia allowed the Minutemen to be shouted down.
The speaker has to be wanted.
Radwaste at February 21, 2010 12:46 PM
Well, that's the nature of obstructionist behaviors: He'll not be heard even if he is wanted. If I'd know he was gonna be there, I'd have might well have (non-disruptively) crashed the party.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 1:55 PM
Typos, OK? Could happen to anybody. Maybe it'll happen to YOU someday.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 2:18 PM
Gotta love this site name.
From a brave guy in Australia.
http://sheikyermami.com/
Ken at February 21, 2010 3:30 PM
Unfortunately, a great many people agree with the original meaning of the quote: that it's OK for the government to suppress political speech that they don't agree with.
Pseudonym at February 21, 2010 7:11 PM
THe thing I never understood. Given more African disappered into the middle east as part of the slave trade, given that the muslim slave trade not only preceded the european/american trade by centuries but that slavey in many muslim countries was leagal until nearly 100yrs afer it was abolished in america(one of the last western powers to do so).
Given all this I cant for the life of me wrap my head around why so many black people in americ become muslims
Posted by: lujlp at February 21, 2010 4:18 AM
Its not hard to figure out. Its the new "in" religion. Like say Buddhism/Eastern religions in the 70s and 80s. Islam hasn't gotten a lot of press until the last 15 years in the US. Folks didn't know much about it or care. It has African roots as it were (despite all the contradictions you pointed out) so its viewed as authentic by some. Its a very patriarchal theology/political system in an age where the west has been systematically destroying families and emasculating men in many ways. Look at modern Christianity, its often filled with happy feel good pap, less on strong values. How is that going to win over converts in downtrodden communities or prisons?
Sio at February 21, 2010 8:13 PM
Offtopic— This 'n that.
crid [Cridcomment at gmail] at February 21, 2010 11:31 PM
Muslims still DO keep slaves. Now they just make them wear burkhas.
Steve B at February 22, 2010 3:34 AM
If I were going to speak at someplace like UC-Irvine, I'd borrow Ted Nugent's sound system. That would take care of that problem.
Cousin Dave at February 22, 2010 4:31 PM
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