There shouldn't be a "race" block on any questionaire. We can't profile Muslims at the airport, but we can profile financial aid applications based on race?

If anyone is more...or less..."qualified" or eligible for something based on their race, then that is discrimination.

It's certainly not "equality."

"the university does not admit students in categories. In the admission process, no particular factor is assigned a fixed weight and there is no formula for weighing the various aspects of the application."

This is the story that universities have almost universally adopted, after racial quotas were ruled to be illegal. By having no documented admissions criteria, it is more difficult to prove that they are, in fact, still admitting based on race.

As far as I am aware, no university has the guts to say "we want the best students, period" and admit based purely on GPA and test scores. Seems to me the right thing for a truly elite academic institution to do.

Well, Allan Bakke was also kept out of medical school for his race, too, and he's white. He was kept out in 1973 and 1974, although minority applicants were admitted with significantly lower scores than his.

You can be white and discriminated against. In fact, you often are.

Well, Allan Bakke was also kept out of medical school for his race, too, and he's white. He was kept out in 1973 and 1974, although minority applicants were admitted with significantly lower scores than his.

You can be white and discriminated against. In fact, you often are.

Posted by: Patrick at February 23, 2010 1:01 AM

Patrick,

Amen.

bradley13,

Amen.

Steve B,

Amen.

Amy,

Amen.

BUT,

What about us kick-ass Roman Catholic Germans, born and bred in NY, PA, and MA? ... and currently residing in the prototypical nanny state-to-end-all-nanny-states (CA for the people who haven't figured that out yet)?

While we are at this, and talking about Jews and Asians ... what little western European country had the balls to recently take on the whole world twice?

I say recently because my teutonic ancestors did, in fact, beat the living shit out of the Romans a long time ago. Wait a minute, I am a Roman Catholic ... damn! You mean all that European history is one GIANT civil war? ...

naaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

I'd think they could sue, no? I would. And I'd fight to get it to the supreme Court. Someone's got to stop this stupidity.

Colleges were fighting over me, and I only got 1450. Go asians!

I have also read that many schools are refusing to turn over or even look at statistics on how many students that performed poorly in high school graduate from their colleges. I believe in a few schools they found out the kids who were admitted based on race that did very poorly in high school never even graduated from college (or lawschool in this case). So what was the point of admitting them to a tough high tier school? Those poorly performing students could have gone to a local school and might have done better and be better prepared for the workforce. that is certainly better than not graduating at all!

But unless colleges cooperate and look at that data and release it we can't know for sure, but they don't care if they are actually helping the students, they think it's racist to even analyze whether anyone is helped by these programs.

cb, it's well established that students admitted under AA criteria perform below average and are less likely to graduate. I absolutely agree that college admissions should be based on academic criteria, period. And I'll say the same thing in the face of the male shortage that colleges are now experiencing, and which has led some colleges to (illegally) grant preferences to males. Admission quotas (and that's what it is, whether a specific number is attached to it or not) are not only morally wrong, but they are just putting a band-aid on the problem. Where the problem needs to be addressed is in primary school starting with the first grade. By the time the students reach college age, it's too late to fix it.

Daughter #1 scored 1640 on her SATs. We're white. She got accepted at a good university with a great music program, pre-audition. Her Philipino friend scored higher than she did and was accepted to the same school, pre-audition as well. They both audition in March. One is also taking biology; the other is heavy into math. But maybe it's just some universities that practice this?

There was an article about this in Harvard magazine a few years back. The author (forget who it was) argued that accepting minority kids that didn't do as well as the white kids into a top tier school wasn't doing them any favors. These were excellent kids, who might have thrived in a top 20-10 school, but who had a difficult time in the top 10. And the top 20-10 schools had to draw from candidates who would really do better in a top 30-20 school. And so on so forth.

It was an interesting idea.

I wonder how they'll deal with my 1/4 Asian granddaughter when her time comes? Does she have to score an additional 10 points to offset the Asian advantage? Or will she pass for white?

This is too stupid, but as an old, slow, unskilled white guy, I want to be the token NBA player. Just for the money, I don't suffer any delusions about my ability.

This is completely ridiculous. Admittance should be based on test scores and academic achievement, not on who your ancestors are.

Stop the world. I want to get off.

Well, its based on other things too... some schools have different categories, "High Academic Achiever", "Rebel Artist", "Future politician", etc. So whatever category they put you in, you're competing with those kids. A rebel artist might not need the same Math SAT score, but would need a good portfolio. Some schools are trying to get the future leaders in all fields.

Some schools also have seats reserved for members of royal families around the world, too.

There have been several instances of white african being denied "minority" status. If the leg-up is really for "African-American" then it should apply to all Americans of African descent.

If it really IS about blacks, then it should say "Black" under race, and not "African American."

'White African-American' Suing N.J. Med School for Discrimination
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7567291&page=1

Where I lived in the 1980s (not the US), there was at that time a strong wave of hiring discrimination based on... your gender. It was called "positive discrimination" (what an oxymoron). The government pledged to rapidly boost the number of women in the workforce and offered financial and fiscal incentives to companies that would hire more women. So if you were a man, well, tough luck: you wouldn't get a job unless you were a real genius with a very thick CV. We've got to love "social engineering" don't we.

Another good one:

White African-American boy not 'black' enough for award
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36764

But Westside officials pushed to change that, feeling the spirit of the honor meant giving it to a black student, and by 2001, the ministerial alliance in charge specified it was for blacks only.

So, then call it the "Highest Achieving Black Student Award" and be done with it.

"You mean all that European history is one GIANT civil war? ... "

That is becoming the standard way to charcterize WWI and WWII - as a protracted period of civil war within Euriopean civilization.

"cb, it's well established that students admitted under AA criteria perform below average and are less likely to graduate. "

Yes, and it's a disgusting scam. The non-AA students lose out, the AA students lose out, and the only ones who make out are the scamming university administrators and faculties who get to pat themselves on the back for their "efforts to redress historical wrongs."

um, when did white stop bing a color...

and if the colors are equal, isn't this irrelevant?

I know, crazy talk...

OK,

Know where I graduated from?

Framningham State Teachers College.

The same school Christa McCaulife graduated from.

Know what whe did?

She died on the space shuttle.

Where I come from EVERYBODY has balls.

OK,

Know where I graduated from?

Framningham State Teachers College.

The same school Christa McCaulife graduated from.

Know what she did?

She died on the space shuttle.

Where I come from EVERYBODY has balls.

Couldn't have been whe.

I am too chicken to ever try what she did.

Can you imagine the agony of all her family and friends?

The explosion cannot be heard from the ground.

The visual could be a stage separation.

... and then the horrible truth comes on you like layers and layers of blackness.

Yale is right in the sense that only admitting a bunch of kids who score near-perfect on the SAT and have perfect 4.0 GPA records will result in a less interesting campus. I met plenty of fellow students in grad school who aced standardized exams and had perfect grades throughout life. Those number-chasers were often among the least talented of the lot. I preferred the students who had done very well on the standardized exams and had excellent, but not perfect, grades. They usually had some "wow" factor in another activity.

That said, the way academia uses affirmative action is a disgrace, and there is a reason academics hide the policies like they do.

If you cannot talk openly and proudly about your actions, there is a good chance it is because your actions conflict with your professed values. I think that is where American universities are right now in regards to affirmative action.

Plus, Asian women are hot. Let 'em in!

Well, hi there, BOTU!

Is this an example of that "rapier" wit you were talking about the other week? If not, could you go ahead an give us one of your own personal examples of how "the English language is best used", right here, right now?

M'kay, thankee moochles.

Y'know...

Jim said: "...the only ones who make out are the scamming university administrators and faculties who get to pat themselves on the back for their "efforts to redress historical wrongs."

That and, at least at public universities, funding is based on student credit hours, i.e., fannies in the seats. If someone flunks out, just accept another AA candidate, and the funding continues.

Maybe funding should be based on percentage of freshmen admitted that graduate from the school, or some such.

> Where I come from EVERYBODY has balls.

So what happened?.. Aren't you the public sector who's whinging like a little girl that your untenable benefits package is about to be diminished?

This a great blog.

Myself I've always thought looking at a standardized test score was a good contributing factor...but, I also think that getting a feel for who a student is, happens to be a good idea. Having a written essay about their life come along with an application that includes SAT scores might provide a better understanding as to whether or not someone belongs at that particular university.

Thinking out loud: For all the seriousness by with which Asian cultures are said to give to the importance of education, at this distance they seem to have none of the pornographic fascination with intellectuals and the professoriate that so deeply infects us here in the West.

Now, Lord knows they have other problems, but Asian cultures seem to me much less impressed with people who just stand up and say 'I know more about this than you do!'

Maybe that's because they aren't the young daughter cultures of a variety of other nations, as the United States is to Europe.

Maybe it has something to do with the more automatic respect that elders are said to receive (in Japan, at least). Since respect is routinely –if shallowly– given to seniority, there's no impulse to shower it over lesser figures who happen to be instructors. They know what tutelage is and is NOT worth.

In any case, Japanese culture seems to admire genuine performers than it does tweedy wannabes.

This might be wrong: I spent twenty minutes in an airport in Tokyo once. If anyone knows better, speak up.

> Where I come from EVERYBODY has balls.

So what happened?.. Aren't you the public sector who's whinging like a little girl that your untenable benefits package is about to be diminished?

This a great blog.

Posted by: Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 23, 2010 10:47 AM

Crid,

Tell me, exactly what "untenable benefits package is about to be diminished"?

You know, when you spend your whole day on Mom's computer, polluting Amy's site with your moronic insight, you tend to forget who said what.

Don't be bitter.

Crid,

I had a friends boyfriend (foreigner) stay in a Chinese owned building. I asked why is the rent so cheap? And why is the building so empty? Apparently no Japanese would rent from a Chinese man, and rarely any Japanese walked into the building. Capitalism doesnt always work in the face of cultural racism.

Brazilians of japanese descent (remember they are ethnically japanese) are treated like dog shit once brought from Brazil.

That's not to say the Chinese and Koreans arent
weirdly racist as well.

It weirds me the fuck out. I'm a Californian and this shit just aint tolerated here.

dunno, Crid. Seems like the Japanese value conformity much more than someone who goes beyond the norm. That they want the norm to be high in the first place is something else entirely. So that gives them this odd dichotomy where they are really, really competitive in their schoolwork and such, but then become more generalized in work. The work ethic is a good thing to have in a place where working hard is rewarded.

We don't want to become the place where that is no longer true.

>>Myself I've always thought looking at a standardized test score was a good contributing factor...but, I also think that getting a feel for who a student is, happens to be a good idea. Having a written essay about their life come along with an application that includes SAT scores might provide a better understanding as to whether or not someone belongs at that particular university.

Robert,
Well - that IS pretty much standard!

I'm not disagreeing - but, yup, most good colleges DO demand much, much more than simply grades from applicants. As they should.

> they are really, really competitive in their
> schoolwork and such, but then become
> more generalized in work.

I've also heard that their dream of great sports contest is one where two teams of brilliant performers scratch and claw and struggle like beasts...

...and then the game ends in a tie. (...Which would make an American ask "why did we think these performers were so brilliant in the first place?")

I was eating at the Farmer's Market, absently watching the TV over at the bar, when this happened. All of us who happened to be looking in that direction screamed at the same time. Everybody else was piss-frightened. I'll never forget it.

Americans are cool with individual achievement and distinct excellence.

"um, when did white stop bing a color..."

Well, if you're white, or if you think white people are the center of the world, that's the kind of stupid mistake you are going to make. Oh, and to all the high-minded true-believers who do make that mistake, that is a fate worse than death - the little racists.

"at this distance they seem to have none of the pornographic fascination with intellectuals and the professoriate that so deeply infects us here in the West.

Now, Lord knows they have other problems, but Asian cultures seem to me '"

It must be the distance, Crid, that is leading you into this one. They are enslaved to test results and credentials and diplomas. The scholars in China have been walking on peole's backs for 2,000 years. That's part of what all the fury in the Cultural Revolution was about.

"much less impressed with people who just stand up and say 'I know more about this than you do!"

Experts are everything in China and Japan. They even designate people as "Living Treasures" in Japan if they are experts at this or that art. And getting into Tokyo University guarantees you a free ride for life, or used to until very recently. If you get in, you are bound to graduate. Getting in just about kills most who try though.

I don't remember where I read it, but some place the various different asian groups were treated differently. Japanese, South Korean and Tawainese were not considered minorities. Thai, people from Laos where.

> Experts are everything in China and Japan

In the international/popular realm, at least, we can't tell. I can't name a single Asian intellectual, excepting industrial captains, in any field.

Which is pretty cool.

I mean, not really, but you know what I mean. Maybe snotty cable news show guests aren't well known in other nations. I can't name anyone like that from Australia, either, though I'm sure they have some.

Crid-
Today I may have used a dull blade (evidently in your opinion), but at least I refrained from expletive and invective.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to skewer anyone here--just a little light-hearted bantering.
Perhaps you go to the local Starbuck and strike up a conversation with someone. Don't use your cel phone, while there.

I attended a math lecture last quarter from guest about a system they designed to help schools admit students to get a diverse student body. It had been actually used at two schools a couple more tests had been done comparing what the system would recommend versus what was actually done. The motivation was that schools wanted (or at least claimed to) want diverse populations and that was a big reason why various groups had been favoured.

Every field is weighted the same (or not at all - e.g. name). The only change that could be made is to set limits such as SAT score has to be at least 1200. Was the system was configured and the data sent in, a list popped out with the most diverse class.

In the presentation, the speaker noted that they had to come up with an additional procedure to get it accepted. Some percentage of seats are held out and given to be special people - e.g. kids of alumni or famous people - those people and seats are never seen by the system.

The other problem noted was that all of desirable students might select a different school and that would through of the diversity.

> at least I refrained from expletive
> and invective.

Your recent fascination with that particular brand of restraint and decorum is dumbfounding. For several months, each and every comment you made was sarcastic, deprecating, and (most especially) witless. The very criticism linked above –a pointless, unbidden condescension towards someone else's expressive habits– was only the youngest soldier in this brigade.

I had you pegged as lonely drinker, suffering the depressive effects of daily indulgence. Apparently there's something else at work with you... But "light-hearted", "rapier wit" it ain't.

Besides, in truly polite circles, "butthole" is a cussword.

Crid, as far as Japanese lack of reverence for stuffy intellectuals goes, there's two things I can think of: (1) Modern Japan is (or was, until recently) very results-oriented. (2) There's that old tradition in Japan of what you're supposed to do if you are in a leadership or influence position and you really screw it up...

"the university does not admit students in categories. In the admission process, no particular factor is assigned a fixed weight and there is no formula for weighing the various aspects of the application."

The university would be a lot more believable if it knew nothing more about a applicant's gender and ethnicity than could be determined from a social security number.

Crud-

You have me pegged wrong in many ways. Always have.

I undertook the moniker BOTU to fit in with the filth-strewn, potty-mouthed commentary that so often dominates this site, evidently a reflection of the minds of the posters. If you flush a toilet...

However, I have gone to an acronym, for reasons you suggest--the word "butthole," while useful to proctologists and gay sex workers, is less meaningful in other contexts, and usually the use of it is banal, like your posts.

Let's call him Donny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjYJ7zZ9BRw

We appreciate your concern for the "banal", yet still await your explication of "rapier wit".

("potty-mouthed"?)

Lets call him what he is ...

Small of brain and wit.

But thinks a lot of it (his it, that is).

I dub thee ...

Pee Wee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVKsd8z6scw

"I don't remember where I read it, but some place the various different asian groups were treated differently. Japanese, South Korean and Tawainese were not considered minorities. Thai, people from Laos where."

This would not be surprising at all. You see, it's not based on history or anything like that. It's based on performance. If your group does well, you ain't gettign special treatment.

If your group does poor, AA to the rescue. North East Asians - Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese - do well everywhere across the globe. They have higher IQ's than whites. No AA for them.

Southeast Asians have IQ's that are either below the white average or equal to them depending on the group. So they get AA. See how this works?

East Indians, of which we get a special elite set of immigrants, no. No AA for you. You're already bright. Really bright.

So it's about who's dumb and who's smart, to put it bluntly. And these patterns exist across the globe, so AA will *not* equalize things.

"In the international/popular realm, at least, we can't tell. I can't name a single Asian intellectual, excepting industrial captains, in any field."

Oh OK - by that standard I see what you were saying. Inside those societies though it's very different. Credentials rule everything. There was a hiatus in Japan after the war, when the elites had lost all their prestuige (by launching and pursuing a disastrous natioanl policy) and of course the same happened in China for the frst couple of decades after the Communists came in, ebcause destroying old, seasoned elites is what commuists do - it clears the way for their own elite to take over. But that's been over in Japan eversince they came into a position where they could indulge in the practices that made them feel the most comfortable, and that meant a cocoon of sanctioned experts on everything.

"1) Modern Japan is (or was, until recently) very results-oriented. "

There have been glaring excpetions since at least the seventies. The banking sector for instance had been carrying huge amounts of bad debt on companies who were the darling of Japan, Inc. The agricultural sector was protected by an impenetrable firewall of protectionism. It goes on and on. Maybe results were the metric, but what results were the metric? - mainly it was central control by the governemnt-corporate cabal running the country. Japan has never been about individual initiative, ever.

Jim, I see your points, and I admit I may have over-stated the case a bit, based on my own interactions with people in Japan. Those people were somewhat-outside-the-mainstream scientists and engineers, so they may not have been typical. Japan was the world's up-and-coming economic powerhouse in the '80s, but it was also in that period that they planted the seeds of the crony capitalism that eventually brought them down. Deming himself took pains to point this out to the Japanese companies he was advising, to no effect.

I like some Japanese food; as long as it isn't actively trying to crawl off my plate.

Europe doesn't have the monopoly on racism.

That much is for sure.

As far as the rest goes, hell I'd have worn a hidden camera to help document the harassment.

I'm a big believer in education, but increasingly over the years I've had to doubt that much education is taking place at some universities.