Fat Is The Last Taboo
Maybe it's because people think of obesity as a disease (which helps squeeze money out of Medicare for obesity treatments).
Even Sarah Silverman, who tells retarded baby jokes, and makes mention of her father's genitals on stage, is offended by fat jokes (or should we say, jokes about "people of mass" or the "differently weighted"?) From CNN.com:
When asked by CNN if anything offends her, Silverman said one category of jokes does strike her as offensive and unfair."I don't really care for like fat jokes about women, specifically," she said.
"Because I feel that we live in a society where fat men deserve love, and fat women do not deserve love -- at least in white America. And so I feel like that's an ugly thing, and it doesn't make me laugh."
Sarah slept through anthropology class, it seems, where they taught how men prioritize beauty in women and women prioritize money and mojo in men. (Just wondering, do unemployed men and men with low-on-the-totem-pole jobs "deserve" love, too?)
For those trying to lose weight, good news from investigative science journalist Gary Taubes (from p. 454 of the hardcover of Good Calories, Bad Calories: "Insulin is the primary regulator of fat storage. By stimulating insulin secretion, carbohydrates make us fat and ultimately cause obesity. The fewer carbohydrates we consume, the leaner we will be."
More evidence-based dietary medicine here, from Dr. Michael Eades.
And, check out cardiologist Dr. William Davis' blog here, which I found via Dr. Eades.
Notice what Silverman said about "white America": Morbid obesity isn't attractive, but the fascination that style- and media-culture presently have with slender women is not sane... It's often counter-feminine, and seems to be about the fashion designer's love of twelve-year-old boys more than anything else. In any case, might does not make right: Neither cash nor pure animal beauty earns our best love.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 28, 2010 1:55 AM
Oh brother, this kind of selective "offense" is super! Most especially when you can fit in the phrase "White America" along with your selective "offense". Retarded babies et al? That's comedy gold! However, fat, female, (especially non white?) jokes are just hurtful.
What's sad is she likely will never be publicly challenged on her conspicuous idiocy. She'll go on making a great living within a show business industry that drives the norms of 'ideal body type'.
Amy writes...."Just wondering, do unemployed men and men with low-on-the-totem-pole jobs "deserve" love, too?"...In her view maybe they don't only if they are part of "white America"?
TW at February 28, 2010 3:21 AM
I'm not sure you're reading everybody's position correctly.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 28, 2010 3:25 AM
Not sure you aren't either...
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 28, 2010 3:35 AM
I thought it was "gravitationally challenged."
Patrick at February 28, 2010 4:19 AM
I'm both certain and uncertain I understand what you mean.
TW at February 28, 2010 5:08 AM
Ahhh yes, let's mock people for things they can not help, like being born mentally challenged. That's funny! But making fun of someone's lifestyle CHOICE! Oh hell no. Stupid bitch.
momof4 at February 28, 2010 5:40 AM
Do you think people don't see it (getting fat) as a choice people make? I suspect not seeing it that way has something to do (or maybe everything) with why many people think it's awful to even SAY someone is fat.
Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 5:44 AM
The Goddess Asks: Do you think people don't see it (getting fat) as a choice people make? I suspect not seeing it that way has something to do (or maybe everything) with why many people think it's awful to even SAY someone is fat.
Absolutely. Too many people view obesity as a condition that just happens to people. And in a way, it is. I know people who eat lots and lots of carbohydrates and still manage to keep the six-pack abs year round. Other people just can't get away with so much as thinking about sugar.
I'm reminded of an episode of Dr. Phil's House I was watching. There was a confrontation between a fat person (700+ pounds) who hated skinny people, with a lean-to-moderate girl (5' 6" probably 110 lbs) who hated fat people. The bulk of their conversation seemed to be arguing as whether or not his obesity was a choice. He insisted it wasn't, and she (just as vehemently) insisted it was.
But I know many overweight people who don't consider it a choice. As Richard (the 700 lbs dude) went into more detail, he described an addictive mindset.
My favorite part of the exchange was Richard walking into an obvious set up.
Thin girl: When I look at you, I lose my appetite.
Richard: When I look at you, I lose my appetite.
Thin girl: Well, good. You should look at me more often, then!
Patrick at February 28, 2010 5:59 AM
I think one hell of a lot of fat people won't admit it's a choice they made. I gained 50 lbs with each pregnancy. I decided to. And I lost it after, by deciding to.
Say what you want about carbs vs no cards (and I fully admit the effect carbs have on blood sugar makes you feel hungry faster) but the only way to gain weight is to eat more than you burn. There isn't a food or medication on this planet that will MAKE your body take a calorie it needs to sustain itself and turn it into fat. There are plenty of foods and meds that will make you feel hungrier. You just have to adjust what you eat accordingly.
Bears get fat on just a fat/protein diet, cows get fat on a whole grain diet. All it takes to get fat is eating too many calories of anything.
Which means, although I don't doubt taube's research, you can get fat eating no-carb if you want to.
I think one thing that has helped me with my weight and health is not eating refined cards as a general rule (I frankly just don't care for them) and eating tons of dairy. There's great research on the benefits of having a high calcium level in your blood. But the thing that has helped the most is just putting down the damn fork.
momof4 at February 28, 2010 7:20 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1698769">comment from PatrickI know people who eat lots and lots of carbohydrates and still manage to keep the six-pack abs year round.
A friend of mine is built like a paper cut, and if he deviated from his relatively high-carb diet, he'd disappear.
We all have different constraints on us -- if you tend to put on weight, you need to eat accordingly.
There are people who have "metabolic issues." They are few and far between.
Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 7:27 AM
Silverman? The best use for Sarah Silverman was portrayed in the opening scene of "Way Of The Gun":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9fbIFMAIrQ
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 28, 2010 7:34 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1698771">comment from momof4you can get fat eating no-carb if you want to.
Sure, if you eat and eat and eat, but it's hard to overeat low-carb because if you don't cut out the fat (which is dumb, since the sat fat/heart disease notion has no evidence behind it), you will be satisfied by the food you eat, without eating piles of it.
Also, Taubes lays out research in his book that shows a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie, and Eades has a post on how there's more "calorie wasting" (your body blowing off calories) from eating fat/protein than eating carbs, which are turned into fat quite efficiently.
Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 7:36 AM
Madness. Its that rare person that is fat because of a genetic issue.
Everyone else, go give a wall the excuses, you'll get more sympathy from it than from me.
And if a fat joke is funny, I'm going to laugh.
I stay fit chiefly because I exercise almost every day of the week (not sundays). I love lifting weights, its a great stress reliever.
If you want to know why somebody is overweight, just look at their lifestyle. Is there a bicycle in their garage? Probably not.
Do they even own a pair of running shoes (not just sneakers)? No. Probably not.
Do they lift anything heavier than a remote control and a donut? Probably not.
Do they have a self-diagnosed glandular problem? Probably do.
Have they considered having a doctor check that out? What, and shatter the illusion, are you nuts?
Do they know the employees at McDonalds by name, and they him? Don't be surprised.
For the vast VAST majority, they might not make the decision to actually be fat, they might not say to themselves, "I want to be a huge bloated fatass that nobody wants to look at or have sex with or spend time with."
But what they DO, do is say,
"Hmmm...1/3 less fat? Well, I'll have 5 of them"
"I don't have time to prepare food, so I'll just go have a few quarter pounders with cheese."
..."and some dessert"
"I'm bored, I think I'll eat something."
"I think I'll drive down to..." (the idea of walking, bicycling, or physical movement to some place doesn't cross their minds, must drive to haul lard in great amounts)
So yes, it is a lifestyle choice, it is a compendium of choices that are about what is easy & convenient, its bad math and self rationalization of bad choices.
Its an array of bad decisions that end up with the eventually undeniable truth that one has turned themselves into a tub of fat. When that becomes undeniable...there is still another layer left...the denial that they have any responsibility for it, that they had choices...they have thyroid or genetics to blame, they can't help it. BAH!
Robert at February 28, 2010 7:46 AM
Thinking about it some, if ANYONE should be offended here, it should be the men & women who take good care of their bodies.
Those amongst us who take the time to eat what we need, not what a family of four would need.
Those of us who hop on a bicycle to go somewhere only a few miles away, instead of hopping in a car.
Those who take a swim instead of a nap.
The people who maintain themselves...
And are then told by people who do not, "oh, you're just like that because you're genetically destined to be attractive, slender, V shaped, and fit...you just got lucky."
BAH!
Robert at February 28, 2010 7:54 AM
What does, "White America" have to do with it???
I don't know of anyone in "Asian America" that is heralding the joys of being fat or loving a fat person.
I don't know of anyone in "Hispanic America" or "Black America", that wants Rosanne Barr to be the cover model for playboy.
People like fit. Not fat. There are exceptions, but they're called fetishes for a reason.
If it seems like a "white america" thing, to like fit slender women with good sized breasts, clear skin, and a slender hourglass shape, then that just says she doesn't travel that much.
People around the world are ready to pounce on pretty wenches like that!
Robert at February 28, 2010 7:59 AM
@Robert - my experience and that of some of my female friends is that we are attractive to men of different races at different weights. Caveat: regardless of race, construction workers seem less concerned about waist/ hip ratio and more responsive to the high-heel/ skirt combo. Our gender or sexual orientation gets "read" differently according to our weights and whether we're in an urban, urban-white, or suburban (white) neighborhood.
Michelle at February 28, 2010 9:10 AM
> People like fit. Not fat. There are exceptions, but
> they're called fetishes for a reason.
I think that's pathetically naive.
Sorry, but there's just no reason not to be clear. That's the kind of stupidity I hate more than any other, in internet chatter as in life itself: 'Why, of course my presumptions are the norm for humanity! I've looked things over and can plainly see what's in the hearts of others, even people who kind of creep me out... and so I know that my own bashful soul sits in the center of human decency and vigor!'
Michelle's saying the same thing, she;s just being inexplicably polite about it.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 28, 2010 9:36 AM
I've definately found white guys liked me thinner, and hispanics liked a little meat. But even hispanics and blacks don't praise obese people for their beauty.
momof4 at February 28, 2010 10:09 AM
Great, M4.. But the discussion about "obesity" readily turns into commenters saying things like "Don't you think you'd be a more meaningful human being if you could lose that extra 10 pounds?"
It's not about health at all. It's about looking down on other people.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at February 28, 2010 10:15 AM
As long as Rush Limbaugh is an obese, pompous, dishonest slob of a demagogue, I'm going to tell fat jokes.
Patrick at February 28, 2010 10:26 AM
It's a hard topic. A couple of random observations:
Obesity often runs in families, whether it is due to heredity or family culture. I know one family where all of them are morbidly obese - including the school-age children. If you see the family at school events, where the tables often have bowls of munchies, you can follow the members of this family by the bowls they have vacuumed clean. They eat, and eat, and eat...
There are exceptions. I know another family where all but one of the family have healthy weights. The exception is one of the children, and the mother can name the school year where weight became a problem. She has no idea of why. Still, it is clearly a behavioral problem: the boy always takes seconds and thirds at meals. The mother just does not "get it". She is trying "new age" ideas, while still making seconds and thirds available at the table.
bradley13 at February 28, 2010 10:29 AM
I'm fat, carrying 100 lbs more than I should on my almost 6-foot frame. I'm in my mid-40's
I'm not in denial. I'm trying to make an effort. I don't think I'm a bad looking guy, but I'm fat, carrying a lot around my abdomen. I think that part of me is gross. I get pretty depressed looking at it. I hate having pictures taken of me. It's an embarrassment to me.
Fat is not attractive. I get that skinny can be attractive, although I feel that a woman with curves is certainly attractive as well. Guys with some extra weight aren't necessarily unattractive either, but obese isn't pretty. Love handles are one thing; a big gut is entirely another.
I blame myself because I work too much in a sedentary job, putting in to many hours, letting work stress me out and that pushes me towards eating. I also let my work-schedule impose on getting enough sleep, cooking better meals, and getting to the gym.
Life can be tough some times when different things put pressure on you, but if you do what I do, letting pressure run your life and throwing "taking care of myself" under the bus, then I have nobody to blame but myself.
For a few decades, I wasn't paying attention to what I was eating. Lots of refined carbs... lots. 4 Snapple's a day, lots of white bread, lots of rice and french fries. I was eating lots of healthy vegetables, fish, and lean meats too, so I always thought I was eating "healthy". But just because a subset of the foods were healthy didn't offset the fact that I was eating a lot of bad stuff that was making me fat.
I'm down 15 lbs and only 85 more to go, and I'm going to a gym (cardio and weights) and avoiding carbs, and will start tracking what I eat soon, to share with my trainer.
As insecure as I am about my weight, it's still a struggle to get my priorities reorganized and to force myself to a gym when I have so many demands in my life tugging at me, but I'm working on it.
I don't mind comedians making funny jokes about fat people. Everybody should be allowed to be a target in this world. I'm not offended.
MarkS at February 28, 2010 11:19 AM
It's not about health at all. It's about looking down on other people.
I recently wrote a column (which I'll post here in a few weeks) about a woman who put on 40 pounds in two years. She had the common presumption about her boyfriend: "Shouldn't he love me for who I am?" (Meaning no matter how fat she got?)
I pointed out that male lust seems to have a weight limit (save for those few guys with fat fetishes or men who can't get a very attractive woman and know it). The guy might love you at plus 40 pounds, but he isn't a bad guy because he doesn't lust after you.
You can't make yourself lust after somebody you don't any more than you can make yourself salivate over a big clump of raw broccoli the way you would a moist slice of chocolate cake.
Telling the truth about male sexuality (it's visual, etc.) is what gives her the option to change. She can also choose not to change. But, telling the truth about fat gets me piles of angry letters from women.
Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 11:20 AM
As far as Sarah's comments go, it sounds like that might be her "sensitive" topic because she probably has (or has had) eating-disorder issues, so she feels the pressure to be thin and hence is disturb by fat jokes.
Amy--I want to thank you for posting about Gary Taubes' book. I read that a few months ago, and it's changing my life. I've lost 20 pounds so far, and I feel better every day. I had given up hope, having been overweight or obese my ENTIRE life (since very early childhood), and the research he presents made me realize I can actually lose the excess pounds without starving and working myself to death.
There's another book I just read that you might be interested in--"Primal Blueprint" by Mark Sisson. I've been encouraged by his work too (he references Gary Taubes' work as well as others). His approach is eating only natural food that our genes evolved to use prior to the great cultural upheaval that was caused by moving from hunter-gatherers to agricultural lifestyles. He also takes a more rational approach to exercise, and I'm having really good results.
Again, thanks for posting the info about Gary Taubes in your "Donut Seem Unfair" column...you are responsible for improving my health and adding years to my life!
Peggy C at February 28, 2010 11:41 AM
Amy, regarding the "Shouldn't he love me at any weight?" complaint--do you watch "Modern Family"? On their Valentine's episode, the father (older man/young hot wife) was concerned that his wife was going to get tired of him as he aged. She said "Do you think I'm so shallow? Would you stop loving me if I gained 100 pounds?
His response: "That's not fair. I have to get old. You don't have to get fat."
Peggy C at February 28, 2010 11:46 AM
A person's size--large, small, whatever--no matter how they got that way, is not a free ticket to treat them shabbily. I like a good joke as much as the next person, but when the mean- spiritedness runs over into every day interaction, and when people start making assholes of themselves based on their biases is what makes me sad. I'm not fat, but that doesn't make me a better person than someone who is. "Pretty is as pretty does," as my Southern Grandma used to say.
mse at February 28, 2010 12:00 PM
Miss Manners once wrote a column on the old maxims of how to preserve marriage (it's in one of her books):
1. Don't let yourself be taken for granted.
2. Don't let yourself go.
She pointed out that both have their limits - and should. Namely, few people manage to remain even close to underweight by doctors' standards after, say, age 40, and it goes without saying that no one should be expected to undergo plastic facial surgery just to look 20 years younger. (OK, I don't think she said that second part, but she would.) However, marriage also means considering the other person worth making a fuss over, and that includes trying to present yourself at your best as much as possible.
And regarding #1, she said that marriage clearly means letting your partner know you'll always be there for him/her.
lenona at February 28, 2010 1:10 PM
Telling the truth about male sexuality (it's visual, etc.) is what gives her the option to change. She can also choose not to change. But, telling the truth about fat gets me piles of angry letters from women.
Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 11:20 AM
To all of you,
Amy is telling you like it is.
My own research indicates the skinny lab rats tend to live longer.
Nobody surveyed the rats on quality of life.
Ken at February 28, 2010 1:37 PM
Fat people can't help but stand out in a way that others don't. Everyone has weaknesses, but people who can't control their appetites for whiskey, women, gambling, etc can still manage to hide in polite company. But if you can't control your appetite for food, you can never hide - everyone for miles around can see that you're fat. That makes you a tempting target.
Martin at February 28, 2010 1:54 PM
I think that a woman being overweight is more complex than it seems. Many times, a man takes out his frustration on the world by making the little woman a nervous wreck. She thinks she is helping him cope (a misguided maternal instinct), even though it makes her retreat to anything to deal with the stress (like a plate of donuts). Then he is truly torn, because he likes her both ways for different reasons: When she's thin, she flips out over the pressure he puts on her but looks great, but if she is fat, she deals with the pressure, but is not good to look at. Many times, the guy goes back and forth-he needs an emotional crutch (who eats to deal with the presssure) and he needs a gorgeous body to look at (who cannot stand any stress at all). She needs to decide whether she is going to be fat, have a boyfriend and be looked down upon for her looks, or thin knowing she looks good, but unable to cope with any stress from any source whatsoever. (This generally means she does not stay in a relationship too long-becoming TMT- too much trouble). Merely losing weight does not necessarily fix what is wrong inside of her.
marilyn at February 28, 2010 2:40 PM
I really don't find jokes about people who are suffering - whether from a handicap or a physical condition, such as obesity - very funny.
I agree that weight gain is usually a lifestyle choice, but in the past few years, I've gained (literally) a bit more empathy for what a struggle it is, especially after 40. I'm someone who has always been naturally thin, and I could lose weight easily - dropping 3 or 4 pds in days just by watching what I ate more carefully - but not anymore. The weight has been slowly creeping up, even though I adhere to a pretty strict low-carb diet and exercise. I rarely eat any sweets, pasta, or bread, yet it's a daily struggle just to STAY at a weight that is really about 10 pds more than I'd prefer. Thank goodness I read about low carb before I'd put on 40 pds doing all the wrong things, like eating low fat (which I had often done in years past, and was still able to lose).
I suspect that's what happened to many people. Due to the wrong way of eating (which was touted by experts as "right"), they developed insulin or metabolic issues, like I think I probably have, yet didn't know enough about the science to stabilize the weight gain. And, once you put that weight on, it can be really hard to take off. So, although I don't have sympathy for anyone who's cramming unhealthy food into their mouths while being a couch potato, I feel for those who are genuinely trying and still can't get that needle on the scale to drop much.
lovelysoul at February 28, 2010 3:01 PM
I think the Girl Scouts should sell something healthy instead of cookies, as I sit here finishing off a box of Thank U Berry Munch.
(I have pneumonia right now, which means it's virtually impossible for me to gain weight, as my body is expending every calorie it gets to fight infection. So, I give myself permission to pig out.)
Patrick at February 28, 2010 4:09 PM
> I pointed out that male lust seems to
> have a weight limit (save for those
> few guys with fat fetishes or men who
> can't get a very attractive woman
> and know it).
That's just preep. Totally preep. Preep-posterous.
There are plenty of men who are attracted to "plenty" on a woman... Certainly to women who you personally wouldn't describe as attractive.
(And if there wasn't eager sexuality happening for heavier woman, there wouldn't be so many of them making babies, giving us another generation with a propensity for overweight.)
This impulse to describe those who don't share your precise tastes (or shape) as "fetishists" is grotesque. Tastes are famously dynamic, and to describe your own as the product of your up-to-date research (matching as they might, by happenstance, your own personal configuration) is extremely hokey. It's much, much more about ego than science.
But if you wanna say snotty things about people –pretending the lives of people you don't admire are the squalid product of desperate savagery– and pretend it's 'science', go ahead. Thoughtful inquiry has suffered greater ignominies than your transparent ego could ever devise... And more importantly, erotic realities will take no notice of your daydreams whatsoever.
Crid at February 28, 2010 4:28 PM
Most of you are way too young to remember this, but in the 50's and early 60's, thinness was NOT revered. I was painfully thin for most of my life, up until I was in my early 40's. What made it worse, was that I had buck teeth. I was teased constantly, even by "fat" kids. People (adults!) who were normally too polite to say anything to overweight individuals, thought nothing of saying, "You're so skinny- why doesn't your mother fatten you up?" Thinness actually ran in the family.
I was a picky eater,but no more so than other normal sized kids, especially most kids now who live on junk food! We didn't have junk food. Clothes didn't fit right, and when I was 13, I looked 10.
When I graduated from college, clothing was made in more size ranges (Thank God for JR Petite). Then Twiggy came along. Remember her?
My point is, fat people aren't ridiculed any more than I was,for my skinny body and my homeliness. My 20 year old niece is thin, but carries it better, she's pretty, AND thin is in.
Discrimination isn't limited to overweight people. It also doesn't just come as ridicule--- It's demonstrated by ignoring and overlooking, which makes a person feel invisible and worthless. No one should be criticized for something they can't control. Plastic surgery isn't covered by health insurance is it? The obsession with good looks has created too many insecure people.
Through hard work, good friends, and PERSONALITY! (that old joke) I've come a long way. I have empathy for others and a sense of humor. It could have gone the other way and turned me mean and critical. This letter may sound harsh, but I'm just venting. I have turned out to be kind, accepting,and compassionate, partly because nothing came easily, and I also was raised right.
saiorse at February 28, 2010 4:33 PM
Looking down on people?
Crid makes a fair point there.
But that begs the question:
Can anyone look down on anyone else?
I'd say so. I wouldn't look down at a fat guy who was trying to change.
But I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about looking down at a guy at Taco Johns who orders the 10 pack & a pound for lunch to eat entirely himself.
If someone has no discpline, they are not to be admired.
If someone has no willpower, they are not to be admired.
If someone makes excuses, they are not to be admired.
If we are to look UP to people who behave admirably, with discipline, dignity, self control or selflessness, we must in turn refuse to encourage bad behavior, self destructived, or self indulgent behavior. Excuses must be looked down upon, sloth must be looked down upon, gluttony must be looked down upon. The same social pressures, social censure if you will, that miss Alkon applies to rudeness, is applicable just as much to the character issues that relate almost without variation, to morbid obesity.
At the same time, we do right to encourage and support the people who attempt to change. Awhile back I had a soldier with a weight problem, so I started running with him, exercising with him, and helping him adjust his standard of living to a healthier lifestyle. He turned out just fine, from excuses to excellence in a matter of months. The guy with the 10 pack of tacos...I'd not feel any guilt over, the equally big guy jogging down the street, hell he's worth offering to join on a run. Nothing builds character & discipline like spending time with people who are trying to build those traits.
--------------------------------------------------
Um, Crid, as Miss Alkon has pointed out before, anthropological studies have shown like body type preferences across cultures around the world, with variations relating to the relative availability of food. So yeah, the norm I'm referencing here has been pretty well established as "the norm". And the exceptions as exactly that, exceptions. Were it not for such well studied results, I wouldn't think to put my own preferences out as the standard for humanity. (Trust me, even "I" am aware that I am anything but standard in most regards!)
Robert at February 28, 2010 4:42 PM
"There are plenty of men who are attracted to "plenty" on a woman... Certainly to women who you personally wouldn't describe as attractive.
(And if there wasn't eager sexuality happening for heavier woman, there wouldn't be so many of them making babies, giving us another generation with a propensity for overweight.)"
Thank you, Crid. You know, my experience with men has been that most of them want me to be heavier, not lighter. An exception, my ex, was a man who valued almost anorexic thinness (which surely messed me up with regards to weight), but since him, it seems that most of the men I've dated have desired fuller, "meatier" figures than what I have.
My fiance was previously married to a woman that I personally wouldn't have considered attractive because she was, by my standards, overweight. Yet, he considers me too thin, and is always trying to get me to eat pasta, sweets, etc, and just enjoy life. It's me who insists on being so thin, and I wonder if we women have an entirely different view of beauty than most men. Yes, they want the hip/waist ratio, but I'm betting those figures would be much higher than we women would think...or want for ourselves. We've been influenced by the fashion industry, which says the thinner the better, but most men don't really like the "waifish" look and would prefer a fuller, curvier figure.
lovelysoul at February 28, 2010 7:45 PM
I think the Girl Scouts should sell something healthy instead of cookies, as I sit here finishing off a box of Thank U Berry Munch.
(I have pneumonia right now, which means it's virtually impossible for me to gain weight, as my body is expending every calorie it gets to fight infection. So, I give myself permission to pig out.)
Posted by: Patrick at February 28, 2010 4:09 PM
Patrick,
I will have you know I spent my last, well almost last, $4 plus $1 tip (cause mom looked cute, and I didn't see a ring, and let the girls make some money, too) on peanut butter Girl Scout Cookies (yeah, the same flavor they had some trouble with).
So what? Did the Girl Scouts Special Swat Team (comprised of womens' MMA members) try to make a citizen's arrest for tipping for less than exemplary reasons? No.
and now, for your case ...
Do you think a crummy (pun intended) case of pneumonia gets you off the hook for pigging out on a box of Thank U Berry Munch?
Yes, Patrick, indeed it does. Have another box on me.
That's the whole point of living in America. You can jog 5 miles every morning, or sit back and munch on a box or two of Girl Scout Cookies, after calling in sick to work, and the wife doesn't know yet 'cause she leaves for work 45 minutes earlier than you do, anyway.
Ken at February 28, 2010 8:55 PM
We've been influenced by the fashion industry
I feel no particular pressure from the fashion industry, but I feel the problem stems from the fact that fashion models (runway models especially) are essentially semi-three-dimensional mobile clothes hangers. They show off the clothes without anything messing up the lines, which is essential for buyers, but not really real-world applicable.
I am getting a little tired of the argument that the fashion industry oppresses women and is bad for their self-esteem; the fashion industry oppresses women who let it. I love clothes and looking good, but I would have to grow thirteen inches and cut off the protruding parts of my body to fit into the fashion-forward runway clothes. I accept that, and I move on. I am aware of what does and does not look good on me (low v-necks, yes; turtlenecks, hell, no) and I dress accordingly. I appreciate the artistry that goes into designing that dress on the 6'2", 115-pound Ukrainian model, and I may even salivate over it a little, but it does not make me want to get skeletal to wear it. I am in no way fat, but I am not built like that, and I know it. Women need to take more responsibility for themselves.
NumberSix at February 28, 2010 8:57 PM
Girl Scouts Special Swat Team (comprised of womens' MMA members)
This needs to be a movie.
NumberSix at February 28, 2010 8:59 PM
Yes, of course, men want rounder women than fashion models, but, sorry, they don't want fat women. By fat, I'm talking about a woman who gains 40 pounds in two years. It does not help women to promote the idea that men do like fat women in this culture (or in any culture where food is plentiful), and that men "should" like you for your personality. It just doesn't work that way.
And while many have struggled greatly with losing weight, I'd guess many or most of them have struggled because they've been eating precisely what puts on weight -- carbohydrates -- on the advice of their doctors and the medical establishment, none of whom have bothered to take a close look at Ancel Keys' shoddy research and all the other crapthink that forms the advice doctors give on how to eat (too many doctors, anyway).
Sorry to not say more, but I'm just back from Sacramento and I have to lie down!
Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 9:09 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1698847">comment from saiorseThe obsession with good looks has created too many insecure people.
Men across cultures prioritize beauty in a woman. As Robert pointed out, and as I've written before, whether men force-feed women to fatten them up or want thin women is connected to the availability of food in a culture. Where food is plentiful, thin is in, and there are areas in Africa where women are fattened up, sent to fat camps, where nobody would look twice at a fashion model.
Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 9:12 PM
Ken: Do you think a crummy (pun intended) case of pneumonia gets you off the hook for pigging out on a box of Thank U Berry Munch?
Yes, Patrick, indeed it does. Have another box on me.
Girl Scout cookies are a disappointment. They don't even use real girl scouts! (I was a boy scout once, but I was kicked out for eating brownies.)
Surprisingly, it does work, but I wouldn't recommend this method to anyone. (Although, if Crid wants to try it, I could try to cough a few times into an envelope a few times and mail it to him.)
Amy is right. Men are attracted to women that convey status. Meaning that in countries where food is hard to come by, fat is where it's at. A fat chick in a starving population makes the guy look like Mr. Alpha Male 2010. The United States, however, is the world's leading producer of food, which is why we have entire franchises dedicated to the consumption of perfectly worthless food items.
And I'm going back to bed. Now that I'm too tired to cough, I might actually get some sleep.
Patrick at February 28, 2010 9:31 PM
Sorry to not say more, but I'm just back from Sacramento and I have to lie down!
Posted by: Amy Alkon at February 28, 2010 9:09 PM
Amy dear,
By all means, sit back, and relax.
You may even want to listen to a few tunes.
Check out selection #9 ...
http://queen.freedownloadmp3.net/rocks/
Words and music by Brian May
Are you gonna take me home tonight
Ah down beside that red firelight
Are you gonna let it all hang out
Fat bottomed girls
You make the rockin' world go round
Hey I was just a skinny lad
Never knew no good from bad
But I knew love before I left my nursery, huh
Left alone with big fat fanny
She was such a naughty nanny
Heap big woman you made a bad boy out of me
Hey hey!
I've been singing with my band
Across the wire across the land
I seen every blue eyed floozy on the way, hey
But their beauty and their style
Went kind of smooth after a while
Take me to them dirty ladies every time
C'mon
Oh wont you take me home tonight?
Oh down beside that red firelight
Oh and you give it all you got
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
Hey listen here
I've got mortgages and homes
I got stiffness in my bones
Ain't no beauty queens in this locality (I tell you)
Oh but I still get my pleasure
Still got my greatest treasure
Hey big woman you gonna make a big man of me
Now get this
Oh (I know) you gonna take me home tonight (please)
Oh down beside that red firelight
Oh you gonna let it all hang out
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
Yeah
Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round
Get on your bikes and ride
Oooh yeah, alright, them fat bottomed girls
Fat bottomed girls
Yeah yeah yeah alright, hey, c'mon
Fat bottomed girls
Yes yes
Ken at February 28, 2010 9:42 PM
Girl Scouts Special Swat Team (comprised of womens' MMA members)
This needs to be a movie.
Posted by: NumberSix at February 28, 2010 8:59 PM
6,
I was thinking the same thing.
Let's call it "Charlie's Angels On Steroids".
... maybe too blunt ... how about ...
"Swat Me Baby"?
Ken at February 28, 2010 9:47 PM
"I really don't find jokes about people who are suffering - whether from a handicap or a physical condition, such as obesity - very funny." ~ls
Agreed. Give me wit over ridicule any day.
Michelle at February 28, 2010 9:49 PM
In most cultures around the world fat women are shunned. In fact, in latin american countries fat women are totally ignored. I know this because my girlfiend is from Paraguay. It is mostly in the U.S that excuses are made about being fat, and how men should "love me for who I am and not what my weight is". I call bullshit. Every man i know personally cannot stand fat women. Not just a little overweight, but fat.
Shut up with all the excuses. I'm tired of hearing women complain about all of men and their infatuation with the models and the waifs in the fashion industry. Are WE buying the clothes supporting these bimbos? No, it is the very women complaining who buy all the clothes shown on the models. It is your own fault. When are you women going to get it that men ogle models but they know they can never have them. Men will always lust after the jessica albas of the world but when it comes back to reality and the women they see everyday they don't want a waif.
Also, to the poster above whose boyfriend tries to put weight on her...that is not because he likes heavier women, it is because he wants to keep other men from looking at her. Just a work of advice.
mike at February 28, 2010 9:58 PM
Women need to take more responsibility for themselves...."and stop using 'oppression' as an excuse to be fat and blame outside forces," is what I intended to say. I know I said it in my head, the thought just didn't make its way down to my keyboard, and the lack of that phrase kind of changes the argument I was trying to make. Anyway, here is the last sentence of my post again:
Women need to take more responsibility for themselves and stop using "oppression" as an excuse to be fat and blame outside forces.
NumberSix at February 28, 2010 10:09 PM
MarkS
Props to you for at least recognizing the problem. As a trainer when my clients start to give it to me about how hard working out is I tell them that they ARE do the easy thing. The hard thing is cardiac ICU. Good luck on getting some motivation to put your wants into action. It is pretty much an individual thing.
Ricahrd Cook at March 1, 2010 5:27 AM
"I'm tired of hearing women complain about all of men and their infatuation with the models and the waifs in the fashion industry. Are WE buying the clothes supporting these bimbos? No, it is the very women complaining who buy all the clothes shown on the models."
That was actually my point. I don't think most straight men give a hoot about the skeletal fashion models that many women aspire to look like. Being superthin and fashionably chic is definitely a women's game of one-upmanship, not really about attracting men at all.
The majority of men wouldn't even approach a woman dressed in that bizarre runway attire. Most men want women in jeans and minimal makeup. They don't want fat women, but they don't care that much about the 5 or 10 extra pds that we basically thin women obsess over.
My point is that the pressure to be superthin is self-imposed. Women are largely the ones editing fashion magazines and choosing what size women to feature in them. We have only our gender to blame for that pressure.
I also agree that some men want their women to get fat so other guys won't look at them. I've definitely seen guys do everything possible to deep-six their gf's weight loss goals.
In my case, it's not that. My fiance just thinks I'm silly to want to be a little thinner when I'm not fat.
lovelysoul at March 1, 2010 6:06 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1698902">comment from lovelysoulThey don't want fat women, but they don't care that much about the 5 or 10 extra pds that we basically thin women obsess over. My point is that the pressure to be superthin is self-imposed.
But, that's not what I'm talking about. That's just being rounder. I'm talking about being fat -- like the woman who put on 40 lbs in two years.
By the way, I only eat the way I do (almost no carbs, except those few from green vegetables and a bit of white wine) because I cut out carbs for four days to get slim for my book cover fast (after having my snout buried in the Haagen-Dazs for a month, and finding out we had four days before we had to shoot the shot). I felt so amazing from eating no-carb that I realized I couldn't go back to eating the way I did (just not eating a lot of bread, but eating oatmeal and drinking juice, and eating potatoes, etc.) I'm probably seven pounds thinner now, and quite thin, but I'm not a Hollywood actress, and I didn't care about being really thin; it's just a side-effect of not eating carbs.
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 6:13 AM
Low-carb definitely works. I'm having a party for my gfs tonight (for the silly "Bachelor" finale), and I'm going to serve only low-carb appetizers. Many of them struggle to lose weight, but they're going about it all wrong, which isn't all their fault since the way they've been told to eat has been wrong.
My only concern with the LC diet is that it seems that I'm almost carb-intolerant now. After being on a low-carb diet for 3 yrs, I just can't eat a single carb - not a bean or a potato or a slice of bread - without gaining back weight. I don't know if I've just become that way over time, or if eating low carb has changed my body. (Someone on one of the low-carb boards said it's only water weight - that it takes so much more water in your body to hold a carb gram, but I'm not sure).
I used to be able to eat some limited carbs and still lose weight, so I don't know if my body has changed or the diet has changed my body. It seems like it worked great in the beginning, but now there's really no weight loss, just maintaining. I think they may call that a plateau.
Not that I want to be super thin either, but I like to have a little breathing room - a 5 pd range to bounce up and down in - if that makes sense.
lovelysoul at March 1, 2010 7:00 AM
LS writes: "The majority of men wouldn't even approach a woman dressed in that bizarre runway attire. "
That sums up my own attitude towards fashion shows -- interesting, from an art perspective, but not sexy or erotic in the slightest. That's why it's so jarring when you see something like a nip slip during a fashion show; it distracts from the android perfection. The reaction is: "Wait a minute -- there's a human under there!"
Cousin Dave at March 1, 2010 7:41 AM
NumberSix: Random q: is your username related to Trisha Helfer's character from BSG?
Gretchen at March 1, 2010 7:42 AM
Oh, and regarding the original topic: Silverman likes to pat herself on the back for her supposed PC immunity. But I've noticed before that she has certain favorite targets and certain other groups that she's clearly uncomfortable with taking on. I'll admit I haven't seen a whole lot of her stuff, but in the several routines I have seen, I have yet to hear her make a joke about Muslims.
Cousin Dave at March 1, 2010 7:45 AM
Photos from Miss Plus America here:
http://www.missplusamerica.com/press.asp
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 7:53 AM
While the majority of people are probably fat due to habits/choices, I do think that there is a pattern of addiction that's a lot harder to put down the cookie than simply wanting it badly enough.
...like they need cognitive behavioral therapy, in addition to an Eades book, as the book alone won't help them.
We can all agree smoking is an addiction but at some point a smoker wasn't yet addicted and said "I'm going to pick up this cigarette, light it an inhale." 30 years later they can't just say no, but it's still a choice even though it is near impossibly to make the OTHER choice without help.
If you smoke and want to quit you probably know you need help. If you're really fat you should be similarly willing to seek help and desire to change for the sake of your health and insurance premiums before I start going around and kill off smokers and fat people. The victim card is really old.
Gretchen at March 1, 2010 7:55 AM
Yeah, I think it's a bit of a cycle. The fatter you are the fewer reasons you have in your life to stay thin.
Yesterday, I went shopping with my daughter, and we stopped at an Italian restaurant. They served that wonderful fresh bread with the oil and roasted garlic for dipping. I wanted that bread so bad...but I thought of my hot boyfriend, the nice clothes I just bought, and, using every bit of willpower, declined. I knew I'd pay for that momentary pleasure on the scale this morning, and it just wasn't worth it to me.
Once your metabolism slows down, as mine has, it can be a pretty restrictive existence. You have to constantly weigh what you have to gain by not gaining against quality of your life in general.
Maybe if I had no one to look good for, I'd make a different choice. I'd be gobbling up that bread, which I think happens to many overweight people. The more they gain, the fewer incentives they have.
lovelysoul at March 1, 2010 8:21 AM
Posted by: saiorse at February 28, 2010 4:33 PM
Most of you are way too young to remember this, but in the 50's and early 60's, thinness was NOT revered.
___________________
I AM too young to remember that, but since I watch plenty of old movies, I'm somewhat aware of such things.
From a 1980s(?) Arlo and Janis comic strip:
Janis: It's funny how standards change! Marilyn Monroe would be considered fat today!
Arlo: (casually) Yeah, right! Fat! You should be so.....
(he stops as she glares at him)
......glad you're not a fat pig like she was!
_______________
Discrimination isn't limited to overweight people. It also doesn't just come as ridicule--- It's demonstrated by ignoring and overlooking, which makes a person feel invisible and worthless. No one should be criticized for something they can't control.
_________________________
I agree, in that while there's nothing rude about not wanting to DATE (or marry) a particular person, it's a very different thing to refuse to make the same chit-chat to the people you work with every day that you make with your OTHER classmates or colleauges. That is blatant rudeness, plain and simple.
However, since no one can tell how sweet you are just from looking at you, probably the only way those born with unappealing faces, at least, can hope to have a romantic life is to act as though they're not looking for one. That is, let other people know what your personality is in all sorts of indirect ways before daring to ask anyone out. Not to mention there are all sorts of "non-date" excursions one can have, especially if more than two people are involved and no money is involved.
(I tried to explain this to someone at betsys blog dot com - columnist Betsy Hart's blog. The person was a man who seemingly didn't approve of women making ANY gesture of interest in a man, such as a dropped hankerchief, because he wanted to do all the chasing. I said that sounds far too much like a man who wants to avoid any non-gorgeous woman like the plague - as if gorgeous women don't have something of a reputation for shallowness and selfishness.)
And, of course, even if you ARE a sweet person, yes, people ARE justified in not wanting to date you if you show serious signs of, say, financial incompetence. Being nonjudgmental has its limits.
Finally, to Gretchen: Miss Manners pointed out, in 1998, that we used to condemn criminals flat out, but now: "Miss Manners doesn't believe society's inexplicably proud claim that it has learned to be nonjudgmental. It has only shifted its area of disapproval: Criminals may be tolerated, or even lionized, but smokers and fat people are not."
You can read the whole column if you Google the last seven words. The writer to MM was asking "doesn't reputation matter anymore" and complaining of how, among other things, "job applicants who affirm they never stole from an employer are rejected because 'everyone steals and only liars would deny it.' " (I assume the writer was talking about applicants who are asked point-blank about the subject.)
______________________
lenona at March 1, 2010 9:15 AM
The thing is, there aren't that many people out there being all victim-y about it. There are a few, of course, but I think they're getting disproportionate attention from your comments. I can't think of any heavy people in my life right now who don't readily, sincerely concede that the problem is in their own behavior. That fact that there are a few people who act as though the whole world's against them on a personal level doesn't mean you should use the same condescending rhetoric when addressing everyone who carries extra weight, many of whom have no complaints at all.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2010 9:19 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1698926">comment from Crid [CridComment at gmail]The column I wrote is about a woman whose boyfriend no longer finds her attractive because of the weight. The most unhelpful thing I could do would be to tell her he "should" lust after her anyway.
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 9:25 AM
Part of the problem is that most doctors and weight loss "experts" are still promoting the low-fat/high-carb diets. I've had the experience of following some of these eating plans to the letter (and being quite miserable doing it) and either not losing or actually gaining weight. So when some people say "I can't lose," I tend to believe them because so often they're acting on the bad information they've been given. Maybe it's my milieu, but I've never known anyone with a weight problem who was an unabashed glutton. Eating disorders, yes, but never total disregard. (Also in my own experience, the more carbs one eats, the hungrier and "noshier" one gets, and coupled with the lack of satiety from little dietary fat, it's no wonder people can't stick with these plans.)
deja pseu at March 1, 2010 10:13 AM
"Because I feel that we live in a society where fat men deserve love"
wait... where do I sign up for this society?
I think that people see this as a disease and not a choice, because the government is fattening them up. IFF you follow the food pyramid, and have a body the responds poorly to that, aren't you doing everything right? For those of us that are turning towards Taubes and Eades, feels like you should wear the tinfoil hate, no? Conspriacy theoristS!, the government and the American Diatetic association are out to get us...
When you get way up there in weight, the problem becomes that it's hard to move. My ex has huge problems with moving, even though she's not that big, this becomes the mother of downward spirals.
So this is where I'd love to figure out how to challenge our surgeon general to start the 6wk Eades cure with me, and then see what she thinks. But right now you kind of have to be a renegade to follow these things. My doc, prescibes ELEM [eat less excercise more] without asking what I am eating, or how much I excercise. Send me all these pamphlets about how to change my diet to have lower fat and meat intake... She believes all this, how am I supposed to work with her when I take on the 6wk cure? I'm on BP medicine because my allergy meds make my BP high, but I need to take the allergy stuff to avoid having anaphylaxis again... and every doc I've seen in the last 10 years has said the same thing.
I'm staring to think that this will have to be a top down change, that comes from the govt. and then the average Joe will believe that part... because what they espose today is what drives the normalization of obese.
Not that they don't tell you it's bad, but that if you follow their formula for eating, you may have a hella hard time losing weight on average. Add all that on top of the fact that people might have this low on their priority list to start...
SwissArmyD at March 1, 2010 10:13 AM
Deja! Hi. And I think you and Swiss are right about doctors still promoting the unhealthy diet. Just today, I saw nitwittery about Obama's cholesterol. On deadline, so look up the Taubes+cholesterol and search "cholesterol" on Eades site, and you'll find out what the science says.
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 11:02 AM
Goodish interview w/ Taubes:
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/eat_your_lungs_out_while_getting_leaner
Gretchen at March 1, 2010 11:29 AM
There are people who have "metabolic issues." They are few and far between.
To be fair, I think all obese people are struggling with a thyroid problem.
Crusader at March 1, 2010 12:04 PM
Crusader - from the Taubes piece I linked above, regarding Yao Ming:
"He was secreting growth hormone, and that also prompted the secretion of something called insulin-like growth factor, and those things made his bones extend and his muscles extend. He got heavier and heavier because he was getting bigger, but he didn't get bigger because he was overeating. He was overeating because he was getting bigger. He was getting bigger because he was secreting hormones.
So if you're talking about growth, all you care about are what hormones and enzymes control growth. As soon as you get into fat tissue and horizontal growth instead of vertical growth, suddenly the causality slips. Hormones and regulation go out the window, and now overeating is the problem. Instead of a metabolic defect, which the research clearly points to, we assume that it's a character defect."
Gretchen at March 1, 2010 12:34 PM
Looks like the perfect time to drop this bomb in here, since everybody loooooooves bacon- how about Bacon Jam? noms...
http://skilletstreetfood.com/baconjam.htm
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!
Juliana at March 1, 2010 12:59 PM
I am fat. More than fat, obese. Or at least that is what the scale and the height and weight charts tell me. I weigh two hundred and twenty pounds. I am a mere five foot three.
When I weighed one hundred and sixty pounds, I ate less than five hundred calories a day. I recorded everything that went into my body, and I tried my best to cut those calories down. The majority of my calories were protein, or the carbohydrates found in green vegetables, all other calories could not provide the sustainable energy to keep going, as my blood sugar naturally runs in the 70s (when I eat, much lower if I don't).
I ran over two miles everyday on my own, not counting track practice. And when I say ran, I mean ran, not jogged. I put my Great Dane on a leash and said go. There was no stopping him, it was either run, or be dragged up and down the gravel road.
And then, I still felt defeated, because I was still overweight.
I choose not to live my life like that. Now, I eat a more reasonable diet, 1500 calories or so a day, with an occasional binge at a Chinese buffet. Occasional means once every three months or so. I let myself have a soda every few weeks or so, whereas before I never drank soda. I let myself eat some potato chips, a few slices of pizza. I still don't eat what most things say are enough calories, and I still don't eat much for simple sugars.
I burnt myself out on exercise about a year ago. Walking six miles or bicycling twenty-four miles every single day wears a person's joints out. (Transportation to work issues, where I was a treadmill inspector) So I walk more, and run less.
I struggle with my weight. I am not happy when I look at the scale. I find a little comfort in the knowledge that most people would guess me at the one hundred and sixty pounds I used to be. I carry around at least five pounds around of me in my bra alone. Despite the forty pound difference, I have only went up two sizes in jeans...mostly due to the increase in my exercise routine.
I'm not built to be thin, I'm built to survive starvation. I embarrass most men with the amount of weight I can lift. I amaze my friends with the distances I've covered just putting one sneaker in front of another.
I choose to be this weight. I choose to give into my love of food. And if my husband or anybody else doesn't find me attractive anymore, to hell with them. I know that the effort I have to put in to being thinner gets me that much closer to the edge of sanity. And I simply choose to be fatter rather than crazy.
I have never been offended at a fat joke yet, and I make many myself. (I can, I'm fat) And at the end of the day, I know who my friends will call when they need help moving their heavy furniture. And who will be wore out and out of breath, while I'm still moving.
Cat at March 1, 2010 1:13 PM
Cat - rock on babe!
Crusader at March 1, 2010 1:56 PM
Gretchen: random answer--
It's from the old British TV series "The Prisoner" (and the recent miniseries, too, I guess, but I didn't watch it). I've never seen BSG, but I keep telling myself to watch it because I know I'd like it.
Watch full episodes of "The Prisoner" on AMC
NumberSix at March 1, 2010 2:09 PM
What do you get when you guzzle down sweets?
Eating as much as an elephant eats
What are you at getting terribly fat?
What do you think will come of that?
I don't like the look of it...
lsomber at March 1, 2010 2:15 PM
Cat, on deadline, so I can only comment briefly, but you sound like a really cool, together woman. Sorry it's been such a struggle for you to lose weight. Have you ever gone no carb or almost no carb? A friend of mine tends to put on pounds easily (like if he looks at a slice of bread), but he lost 17 pounds in a month after eating only bacon, eggs, steak and hamburger. And has continued to lose weight.
I'm not a doctor -- you may be one of the people (rare) with actual medical reasons you cannot lose weight. Or, it may be that you didn't have the medical advice you needed. You might check out Eades site, and some of the sites on his blog roll. Dr. William Davis, who I found through Eades, and linked above, might have stuff of value, too.
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 2:41 PM
So, Cat, with struggle like that, practically nothing we could say applies to you... but perhaps, contacting the Eades directly, you might be a preson who would benefit from figuring out why. I had a doc who used to tell me I'm one of those "healthy fat guys" because all the indicators except weight seemed correct. Now that I'm older, that may be changing, your body doesn't stand still. But, it pays to find a doc who can help you figure it out, based onyour own body and the way it is taking in food. That's the hard part, but at the least talking to someone who gets how the liver, and hormones work, is quite the start...
It's OK to love that body as you do, just make sure you don't get betrayed by it later...
SwissArmyD at March 1, 2010 3:01 PM
Fatties should eat less, especially less carbs.
I just ate my head off in Thailand, but mostly meat and vegetables, I lost two pounds!
Fat people should form their own country somewhere, along with short people.
BOTU at March 1, 2010 3:12 PM
Don't be a potty-mouth!
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 1, 2010 3:45 PM
I’ve known women who could stab a man to death with their knees and elbows. Their bones are sharp enough to cut. I like softer women.
ken in sc at March 1, 2010 4:57 PM
I am not a potty-mouth. My other orifice points at the potty.
BOTU at March 1, 2010 5:59 PM
To everyone who has advice for people who have chosen to be overweight: It must be wonderful to be you! You just glance at a person and already know who they are and exactly how they got to be that way. It’s amazing. Doctors can’t even do that! And then you take all that knowledge of yours and, as if it’s the easiest thing in the world, you share it in the comments section of advice columns. For free! Wow.
kreskingroupie at March 1, 2010 6:16 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1699035">comment from kreskingroupieTo everyone who has advice for people who have chosen to be overweight: It must be wonderful to be you! You just glance at a person and already know who they are and exactly how they got to be that way.
Um, I'm not chasing down strangers in the supermarket and reprimanding them for their food choices. People e-mail me asking for my advice, and I give it to them; typically after engaging in many-thousand-word exchanges with them in which I ask them many questions.
And while there are those people who have health problems that cause them to be fat (thyroid problems or drugs they're taking, for example), most people are fat because they consume carbohydrates, which cause the excess insulin secretion that puts on fat. See Gary Taubes and Dr. Eades for this. This is not mere speculation on my part -- it's evidence-based dietary medicine (which, by the way, is not what very many doctors, including Obama's, with his cholesterol pronouncement today, practice).
Amy Alkon at March 1, 2010 7:40 PM
Fat people should form their own country somewhere, along with short people.
I've always wanted to form my own country, and now I have a reason. Shortania? Mini-sota? I don't know, but I'll tell you one thing: this man is going on the flag.
NumberSix at March 1, 2010 8:09 PM
My mother is wonderful example of no-carb diets. She's not designed to be big. Her hands when spread palm to palm practically fits in mine. She's under five feet tall. I take after my father's mother in my size, but I missed her height by six inches or so. Yet, my mother eats too much and weighs as much or more than I do.
When Dr. Atkins first came out with his book, she jumped on the bandwagon. And she lost weight. Unfortunately, the doctors have tried to put my mother on medicine for bipolar disorder for years and she has refused vehemently. Without the carbs in her diet, combined with a job she hated...my mother cried in the dark for hours at night. After the entire family begged her to eat carbs again, she gained the weight back, but her mood swings were millions of times better.
I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in my teens and a completely no-carb diet frightens me. I do my best to control my mood issues with a variety of supplements rather than overly harsh drugs that leave me drooling on myself. (Fish oil, vitamin E, melatonin for the insomnia, and some others)
Thyroid disorders do run in my family. My little brother has been on pills since he was eight or so. And an overwhelming majority of my extended family are the same way. Yet, mine is normal.
I hate going to the doctor's office because of the nurses. They always under-guess my starting weight by fifty pounds. Then, they expect a high blood pressure, and are amazed when they don't get that reading. I often get my blood pressure done more than once, and by the time they are done it's elevated to normal level from annoyance.
Doctors don't say much in the way of my weight. They see the test results: low blood sugar, low cholesterol, normal to low blood pressure, normal thyroid, etc. I get more of a lecture on taking my calcium supplement than I get for my size.
I'd be thinner on the birth control pill, but it's not reliable for overweight women. Too many fat women walking around with pill babies. The shot was better than the arm implant I have now, and I'll go back to that in two years or so when I get it taken out. It'll be nice to loose the ten pounds or so that I gained because of it.
I don't eat breakfast normally. If I do, it's eggs. Normally three or four servings of vegetables for lunch. And then something with lots of red meat and cheese for dinner. Steaks, roasts, hamburger, etc. (Family-raised cattle). Rarely, chicken or fish instead.
I'd be better off eating more meals with less calories, but I never feel satisfied that way and I end up eating more.
Cat at March 2, 2010 9:25 AM
Cat,
From what you've said, you are eating a primarily protein/low carb diet already and although you've gained weight, you haven't gain a comparative amount of size. I wonder what your body fat percentage is. People with high muscle mass will weigh alot, but since muscle is more dense than fat, they will be smaller. I suspect that you are not as 'fat' as you might think.
On another note, I am in much the same boat you are. I have very severe hypoglycemia/hyperinsulincemia. I can put on weight looking at food some days. I do my best to eat as few carbs as possible, but even something small can put me into a cycle of gaining weight (2 or 3 lbs a week sometimes). Part of that is because insulin also causes the body to retain water, but I know that some of it is fat. Many doctors think that I must eat myself stupid, but I rarely get above 1200 calories per day.
I don't know it helps to know that you aren't alone, but I'm telling you either way. :-D
-Julie
JulieW at March 2, 2010 10:10 AM
Cat - more power to you.
I could describe several of my loved ones similar to the way you have described your self.
One such friend was diagnosed with a defect in the MTRR gene. In addition to wrecking havoc on her metabolism, this condition can increase the likelihood of creating spina bifida in a fetus if coupled with a B12 deficiency. She eats like a saint - gluten free, almost no carbs, heavy on the protein. It gives her more energy and mental clarity, but does not change her weight.
Another friend was diagnosed with Hashimoto's disease. Not fun.
I'm all for a self-effacing sense of humor, but as someone who has an easy time with weight, it would be low to trade in that cultural currency.
...and I'm having server problems, so please pardon potential repetitive posts.
Michelle at March 2, 2010 3:42 PM
*raises hand*
Fat person here. I went on Atkins around '01 and lost 60 lbs., then went off (stupid) and gained that back and then some. Now I'm back on again and have lost 11 lbs. so far.
Carbs do not like me. I know that if right now I snarfed down a bagel I'd be STARVING in about an hour and looking for a cookie. I think that's the problem with high carb diets - they create a vicious craving circle that you can't get out of, and unless and until you've tried low carb and cheated a couple times, you won't ever realize that's what's happening to you. Honestly, right before I went on Atkins the first time, I used to sit around at night obsessing about what was in the cupboards or the fridge I could eat. I wasn't hungry, I just couldn't stop thinking about it. Which of course led to eating it. I swear, TWO DAYS after I started Atkins that stopped. COMPLETELY. Here I was thinking all that time that it was my shitty lack of willpower and all it really was was the carbs talking. So yeah, while a lot of the time it IS the fault of the fat person for being fat, sometimes it is, as others have said, because they're getting a whole crapload of misinformation about what is good for them. And, some people can and do eat tons of carbs, with no problems. I liken it to lactose intolerance - not all people can have dairy, and not all people can have carbs. YMMV.
Ann at March 3, 2010 11:46 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1699423">comment from AnnI think that's the problem with high carb diets - they create a vicious craving circle that you can't get out of, and unless and until you've tried low carb and cheated a couple times, you won't ever realize that's what's happening to you.
Thank you so much for posting this, Ann, and the rest. People need to realize this. I once accidentally ate a lowfat muffin instead of regular fat (back when I was eating carbs) and not having any fat, plus all that flour and sugar, turned me into a starving raging hungry monster in about 15 minutes.
Amy Alkon at March 3, 2010 12:09 PM
Amy, I hope it isn't too late to comment here, but I just read the advice column about the woman who gained 40 lbs. I hate to say it, but I think the criticism that you're getting for your answer is deserved. The lady already feels bad about being fat - she's not a "fat and proud of it" type. So could you have maybe not made so many fat jokes at her expense (I counted at least 6). If she gained weight because she was depressed, being made fun of is not going to help. For that matter, neither is getting a cold shoulder from her boyfriend. Yeah, I get that he doesn't want her to be fat, but he could have been supportive and encouraging about it.
What sucks is that people are going to brush over your really good advice about cutting carbs and focus on the tone of your response. And I've been reading your work long enough that I know your style of humor - but this time I just think it went a little over the top.
KarenW at March 3, 2010 2:33 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1699455">comment from KarenWKaren, first of all, I helped the woman, who made that clear in our e-mail exchange, and who wasn't some fragile ninny (she called herself "Fatty with a dream," which I found hilarious. Second, do people not get that I answer people's questions at great length by e-mail? Maybe she read the column, maybe not, but she got her answer without the humor (or without much of it) long before I printed the column. A lot of people who write to me never read more than the e-mail. And it's not like I'm publicly calling her out. Nobody knows who she is but me. Third, how come it's okay for me to joke about the irrational and all sorts of other people but not people who got fat because they snacked for two years straight?
I've written a response column to that one, and it'll be in the paper soon.
PS The Haagen-Dazs snout comment is one I first made about myself, the month we were supposed to shoot my book cover, and I'd indulged like ice cream was going out of style.
Amy Alkon at March 3, 2010 2:43 PM
Thanks to Amy's 'advocacy' on the topic I started learning about insulin and low-carb diets in December, and it's already made a big positive difference in my life. Apart from feeling I have more "control" over my weight gain and loss (though I've never been fat) --- i.e. my weight fluctuations no longer feel like some random thing to which I could never previously quite figure out any causative relationships --- more importantly, I feel I have much more energy. It's now finally obvious to me (after *years* in fact decades of "tiredness problems") that many of the 'tiredness and laziness and motivation' problems I had were quite simply due to my previously usually frequent intake of refined carbs. It's *finally* now predictable as clockwork to me, if I eat refined carbs or anything high in sugar I will very soon feel very sleepy and lazy for a few hours. Used to be I could never work for some time after a major meal. Now with low-carb, I can eat a huge delicious fatty steak and right after get straight back into my work, full of energy. I'm much more productive. I used to feel so lazy after eating that my dirty dishes would just pile up, I thought I was just lazy, but now that I'm on a fairly low-carb diet, all of a sudden I just feel perfectly OK with washing my dishes after a meal, that "laziness" is much less.
Lobster at March 3, 2010 4:32 PM
Amy, how on earth would anyone reading your column in a newspaper know that you have long email correspondence with your letter writers? Of course readers will just assume that the entire conversation is the column and judge the harshness accordingly.
Sam at March 3, 2010 7:58 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/02/28/fat_is_the_last.html#comment-1699487">comment from SamI'm flattered that people think I can dash off a response with the humor and thinking that sometimes takes me more than a week.
People don't write to me because they want somebody to coddle them. And I don't. If you want somebody to tell you the lies that will allow you to continue in your misery, write somebody else. I'm not going to tell you he "should" like you the way you are; I'm going to tell you that the guy who got together with you 40 pounds ago, probably didn't go for you because all the obese women were taken. I'm further going to give you stark visual images and verbiage to make you see what you're doing -- be it speed-eating Twinkies, being cheap, behaving irrationally.
Amy Alkon at March 3, 2010 8:26 PM
*****It's now finally obvious to me (after *years* in fact decades of "tiredness problems") that many of the 'tiredness and laziness and motivation' problems I had were quite simply due to my previously usually frequent intake of refined carbs. It's *finally* now predictable as clockwork to me, if I eat refined carbs or anything high in sugar I will very soon feel very sleepy and lazy for a few hours. Used to be I could never work for some time after a major meal. Now with low-carb, I can eat a huge delicious fatty steak and right after get straight back into my work, full of energy. I'm much more productive. I used to feel so lazy after eating that my dirty dishes would just pile up, I thought I was just lazy, but now that I'm on a fairly low-carb diet, all of a sudden I just feel perfectly OK with washing my dishes after a meal, that "laziness" is much less.*****
OMG, THIS. The first time I was on Atkins and ate something sugary I literally passed out for two hours (luckily I was in front of the TV at the time). My boyfriend had given me a baked pear. I was thinking "How bad could it be?" Well, I found out. He could NOT wake me up. Talk about sugar coma! That's when he started to take the whole Atkins thing seriously (although I still haven't converted him).
I have a LOT more energy on low carb, I sleep better, my head is clearer, and I don't feel so incredibly lazy, which is another thing I think happens to fat people, which makes them think they can't do anything about their situation.
Ann at March 4, 2010 10:42 AM
Amy, my point was just that you seem to frequently say, in response to a critique on advice given in your column, that you know more about the situation than readers do because of your email conversations with the letter writers. Sometimes you do make that clear in the column, but if you don't, I can't see why you'd expect readers (especially if they don't read your blog) to know that.
I agree with the actual advice in this column, 40 lbs in two years is a problem. I've seen other advice columnists give similar advice; last year I read a column where the man wrote in asking if he was a really big jerk because he was upset his fiancee had gone up three dress sizes and 60 pounds since he proposed. The columnist got lots of hate mail, but she said essentially that his fiancee had misrepresented herself in order to get him to propose and he'd get villified for breaking up with her but that was the right thing to do.
Sam at March 4, 2010 11:40 AM
In order to loss weight, you will need to find the root cause on your weight gain. Once you find out the root cause, you will be able to come out a weight loss plan with the right diet plan that able to help to reduce your weight.
Felicitas Viox at October 11, 2010 5:08 AM
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