To The Bitter "Friending"
Loved this @WalterOlson retweet.
RT @bobambrogi: This felt wrong: Shortly after heated call with lawyer saying he'd sue my client, he sent me invite to connect on LinkedIn.
On a related note, one of the kids (now 45) from when I was growing up recently "friended" me on Facebook. I was shocked. I could be wrong (and he did deny it when I wrote him to ask), but I strongly suspect he was one of the boys who egged our house, toiletpapered our trees, and shaving creamed "Dirty Jew" on our garage door.
Now, I will say yes to Facebook friend requests from almost anyone and everyone who asks -- and politely ask them NEVER to write me on Facebook (it's slow for me to reply to people there, and I'm already deluged with e-mail for a living).
Still, I do have this one little personal policy: "If you 'dirty Jew' me at 8, you don't get to 'friend' me at 45."
Some people have extremely selective memories...I got bullied all through grade school, and pretty much ignored in high school. These same people, when I run into them back home, say 'You live in Japan? Cool! Give me your address so I can look you up when I go there'. Eh?
crella at March 6, 2010 3:42 AM
I think most people perceive themselves as the put-upon outcast in school at some point.
I thought I had been ignored in high school when I graduated and left for college. No one could physically pick on me in high school, but in grade school people could, and some did.
Only years later did I realize I was part of whatever popular crowd there was in high school. It should have been obvious to me at the time--sports, student council, homecoming court, always at a party, bad boy police record, girlfriends--but at the time, I had little inkling. Like all teens, I simply thought of myself as goofy and awkward. Most teens are wads of social anxiety, and even the most apparently socially confident ones are pretty anxious about social matters.
If I didn't spend time talking to someone during HS, it was not because I ignored them, I just likely didn't talk to them for the same reason they didn't talk to me: I assumed they did not want to talk to me.
Decades later, you need to let most of that stuff go, because the same people you knew in school are often quite different from the ones you would meet now. A date rape? Nah, don't let that go. For example, one guy beat me into unconsciousness when I was 13 and he was 18. I might break him if I ran into him, even today.
But a cheerleader did not talk to you? Let it go. She is now a mother of three working in an insurance office. She is likely pleasant, and in fact, was during high school too if you knew her better.
When I went to a reunion once, I spent most of the time talking to someone who had not said 5 words to me in 4 years during high school. She had become a federal law enforcement officer, and lived in a city where I had previously lived. During high school she had been cocky about her intellect and disdainful of many classmates' intellectual abilities. There was absolutely none of that in the woman I talked with. We had a fine conversation and I was quite pleased at having the chance to get to know her better.
If I was Ms. Alkon, I would give someone who denies doing something dumb at 8 a second chance. I think the "friending" thing is silly, but if the guy bumps into Ms. Alkon at a reunion or something, I'd say give him a chance--at 45 he is not the 8 year old boy who may or may not have done something dumb. Heck at 21 he was not the 8 year old boy.
Spartee at March 6, 2010 4:55 AM
Spartee has a point. At 8 I bet that kid didn't even have any idea what a "Jew" was, he was probably just spewing some crap that he heard from parents or older siblings without even understanding his own words. It's entirely possible that he turned into a nice guy.
Karen at March 6, 2010 5:59 AM
If I was Ms. Alkon, I would give someone who denies doing something dumb at 8 a second chance.
The girl who gets a second chance is the girl who saw my column in a Detroit paper and wrote me to acknowledge and apologize for being part of the gang of girls who were horrible to me in junior high school (throwing chairs at me in the hall and taunting me with anti-Semitic epithets until my father went and talked to the principal).
This guy just saw me on the "friend" lists of other people from high school -- none of whom I talk to or have anything to do with -- and thought he'd "friend" me, too.
Amy Alkon at March 6, 2010 6:57 AM
I've been "friended" on Facebook by a few people I really have no interest in connecting with. It's not that they bullied me - just simply that if we were really good friends we would've stayed in touch for the past 25 years.
Darry at March 6, 2010 6:57 AM
The situation with the lawyers isn't like yours, Amy. It's not uncommon for lawyers who oppose each other heatedly in litigation to be friends and/or to respect and recommend each other as talented professionals.
Anon at March 6, 2010 7:03 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/06/friending.html#comment-1699985">comment from AnonThe situation with the lawyers isn't like yours, Amy.
It sounds like that particular lawyer might've fought a bit dirty on the phone.
Amy Alkon at March 6, 2010 7:20 AM
No, you don't have to give people who have hurt you another chance. Amy's not sitting around bitter, needing closure from him. If we're not friends irl, we're not gonna be "friends" on FB. That's my rule.
momof4 at March 6, 2010 7:55 AM
It drives me nuts when the children of my friends on facebook want to friend me. I like to post some stuff that is not appropriate for a 12-16 year old, and I don't need the parents calling me up to complain...
Eric at March 6, 2010 8:02 AM
Amy, sounds like your jr. high school experience was a lot like mine (sans Dirty Jew).
Jeez, this just happened to me. A former roommate of mine who came to live with me because she had just finished law school and her living situation with her parents had become "unbearable". It was temporary but I opened my home to her. Unfortunately she suffered from such severe OCD and shopping addictions that it made my life chaotic from day one.
Also, her dog was spoiled and ill tempered and use to snap at my dog and at one point, they got in a fight that was instigated by her dog (and her for throwing toys up in the air to them in a confined room--which I had told her repeatedly was not a good idea).
When I went to break up the fight (since her dog bit mine - not the other way around) her dog also bit me - and I had to go to the ER. She blamed it all on my dog (whatever) and called my dog a "beast" and me, "filthy and dirty" (she had OCD so bad she cleaned the house daily including the baseboards and wanted to hire a maid on my dime - even though she was living with me RENT FREE).
I asked her to move out and after several email exchanges asking her to pick up her large broken mirror and broken vacuum from the house or pay me for the disposal - she sent another nasty gram telling me to deal with my own resentments and leave her out of it. This was last April.
Two weeks ago I got a Linked in request from her. It was the first contact I had from her in almost a year.
I didn't respond.
Feebie at March 6, 2010 9:01 AM
There was a kid I befriended in third grade, I think. He came over my house a couple times and vice-versa. Then we stopped hanging out. I remember that my parents had an issue with him being Jewish. The details are foggy, but I remember their opposition, I remember crying about it, and I know for sure we weren't friends afterwards. I didn't even know what a Jew was, and sure as hell didn't identify myself as a "Catholic." The most absurd part--my mother's own father was Jewish.
George K. at March 6, 2010 9:05 AM
Interesting, Crelia. A lot of expats report that visitors to their location expect to use them as social guides and hotels, etc.
Where I am, I am the only NA in a 750 square mile area, and I keep hoping the couple that means it's only 750 goes home or something, heh, heh.
I was one of the outside kids in high school. This was especially bad, because from 4th to 8th grade, we lived in Rogers, Arkansas, and I had zillions of friends. Moving back to the Midwest, was like moving to Hell. I suppose today Rogers is no different.
A number of very successful people were miserable in high school. I think the billionaire who started Amazon was one of them, if my memory is correct.
irlandes at March 6, 2010 9:15 AM
"I thought I had been ignored in high school when I graduated and left for college. No one could physically pick on me in high school, but in grade school people could, and some did.
Only years later did I realize I was part of whatever popular crowd there was in high school."
That made me laugh (in a good way) and I was wondering how you managed it? How do you think you're alone but really be in the popular crowd at the same time? :-D
To clarify, I'm not hanging on to anything, I just am mildly surprised sometimes....if I did things to someone like those that were done to me, I'd never dare to invite myself to their house 20 years later. I'd be too embarrassed. Which makes me think that people have selective memories.
crella at March 6, 2010 9:19 AM
"Interesting, Crelia. A lot of expats report that visitors to their location expect to use them as social guides and hotels, etc."
Yes...hasn't happened yet but I've been asked several times if we mind people staying with us. I've been lucky so far I guess, considering the number of times I've had comments on people wanting homestays, somewhere to stay 'because Japan is expensive'.....if it were 'because I'd love to catch up, I wouldn't mind. It's always about what they need to travel Japan easily.
crella at March 6, 2010 9:23 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/06/friending.html#comment-1700019">comment from FeebieUnbelievable, Feebie (about this roommate), and sorry to hear about your junior high experience being similar. It was really paintful. On a positive note, I think being picked on as a child has made me a person who notices and looks out for the outcasts, and tries to include them or make them feel better.
Amy Alkon at March 6, 2010 10:06 AM
I think it's important to remember that often the 8-year-old bully is being bullied elsewhere in his own life, usually at home, and so the cycle begins.
Your entire professional existence, Amy, is based on the notion that people can change given 1. good advice and 2. a willingness/ability to heed that advice. So maybe the bad kid can be a great adult worth knowing. Apologies are nice -- in my 20s I sought out the gay boy my class, not me, badgered mercilessly in elementary school, and just told him what idiots they were and how sorry I was for not standing up for him (I was too busy getting beat up for protecting my sister, who was ill and in a wheelchair at times, and couldn't take on any other causes at 10).
Point it: You are as wonderfully far from the girl who got chairs thrown at her as is possible. Others may be far from their old selves, too.
Though for the record the whole friending thing strikes me as funny. I especially like hearing from people 30 years later who don't even bother to add a note. Those I ignore.
elementary at March 6, 2010 10:33 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/06/friending.html#comment-1700025">comment from elementarySo maybe the bad kid can be a great adult worth knowing.
I don't "know" people who friend me on Facebook, and have no interest in the guy.
The woman I respect is the one who, pre-Facebook, saw my column in the paper, thought about what she was a part of (a gang of girls who went after me every day), and sought me out via e-mail, took responsibility for her part in that, and expressed remorse. I'd shake that girl's hand if I saw her, and I have a lot of respect for her.
Amy Alkon at March 6, 2010 10:44 AM
Eh. My high school years were pretty tame, compared to some. I'll friend people I know, but not those I don't know. There are a lot of local musicians I'm "friends" with on FB, and sometimes some of their friends will "friend" me. But if I don't know them, I ignore them. The people I went to high school with that I'm friends with on FB are real life friends as well. Mostly we use it to catch up, or meet up. FB is a real big time-sucker though. I'm not on it much.
Flynne at March 6, 2010 10:56 AM
Wow, Amy! I didn't know there was so much anti-Semitism still around.
rphm at March 6, 2010 1:02 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/06/friending.html#comment-1700049">comment from rphmI'm 45. It happened in Michigan, when I was growing up -- from about age 6 on. My parents moved from Detroit to the suburbs when I was 4, I think, into a neighborhood that was just starting to pop up. We didn't move to a Jewish neighborhood; my dad thought we were like everyone else -- which is fine if everyone else thinks you're enough like everyone else to not go after you the way some kids did after us (surely, overhearing their parents talk about how the Jews killed Jesus -- which I'd hear from time to time as I was growing up). Nice.
I was talking today to my neighbor, who's a great mom, telling how much I respect her for making a point of teaching her kids to be kind. I see it in them already, this influence. Her 5-year-old was holding my dog the other day and instructing me, in her little 5-year-old girl in the right way to do it (which was just so cute); something along the lines of "Lucy doesn't see very well and she gets scared unless you hold her from the bottom" and "We have to take care of her because she doesn't see very well." So sweet. (They'd taken care of Lucy when I was in Traverse City, so her mom had taught her this stuff then.)
Amy Alkon at March 6, 2010 1:42 PM
Crelia, someone sent me an article, I think on my message board, about different types of expats, though this specifically referred to Mexico, not sure if it's different elsewhere. Not sure if I can remember them all.
One group moves, but tries hard to Americanize where they are, doesn't associate with locals, complain a lot, and don't stay long.
Another group does not especially dislike the Mexicans, but mostly lives there because of the weather and general environment and the cost of living. They stay longer, but plan on "going home" some day, and usually do.
I do remember my group. Finds something very important, might be something he/she doesn't like in the States, and/or something he does like in Mexico. Goes almost totally native, and never even wants to visit the States. Avoids physical contact with other expats. In most cases, dies in Mexico.
I can't remember the 4th group, sorry.
If you had told me in high school I would someday live in Mexico, and want my bones to rest there, I would have assumed you were nuts. So, I agree, people can change a lot as adults.
On the other hand, with 6 billion people on the planet, why friend someone just because they made you miserable in high school? If you want to be noble, go ahead; if you don't, that sounds fine to me, too.
It's called growing up and moving on.
irlandes at March 6, 2010 2:38 PM
"How do you think you're alone but really be in the popular crowd at the same time?"
Being human and teenaged. Disaffection is a near universal feeling among teenagers.
How do you think John Hughes made all that money?
Spartee at March 6, 2010 4:31 PM
rphm: "I didn't know there was so much anti-Semitism still around."
Rather. At school I was also beaten and spat on for being a Jew.
Lobster at March 6, 2010 5:05 PM
In Jr. HS I was a fringe member of the Honors group. Each year there was a Honors class and I was in that but I was not one of the 6 or so well known members. People pretty much ignored me. The head of the skaters cliche had a real dislike for me for some reason.
In HS, I was on the fringe of brainacs and the debate team. Other than a small group of friends, I was pretty much invisible. I did not get a single date...most didn't say "no" they said "who are you?" At least I thought I was invisible. At our ten year reunion, I found that a lot of people had known who I was and were interested in what I had been doing. This was especially true with the alternative popular group - the just all-round good people with loads of charasima.
I have found with FB that alot of people from HS friend me, I accept, and then like a month later I will notice we are no longer friends. Seems like that want to take a peak and then drop me. That, and it seems like I alot of them have become hard core consverative relgious individuals... and they might not like me speaking my mind.
The Former Banker at March 7, 2010 12:41 AM
I was an outcast in high school also. The reasons are complex, but the main one was that I was the new kid among a cohort that had all grown up together, and I was from a different area and I talked funny and had different habits.
You know which group accepted me? The stoners. This despite the fact that I didn't partake. We had a deal: I didn't lecture them about using, and they didn't lecture me about not using. We all had similar interests in music and weird physics and sceience fiction. (And yes, we were all guys. I went to an all-boys high school, and there were no girls my age in the neighborhood we lived in, so I'm one of those losers who never had a date in high school.)
I've never attended a high school reunion. I have no desire to see most of them. Of the few that I might want to see, they generally don't attend the reunions either.
Cousin Dave at March 7, 2010 10:17 AM
"At school I was also beaten and spat on for being a Jew."
Yeah, I had a bully problem in junior high school, twice. The second time it happened I used the classic American solution and nobody f'd with me after that.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 7, 2010 8:58 PM
The only thing I would caution is that resenting people for years is really counterproductive. You remember it and simmer with fury while they forget you even exist and happily go on with their lives. If you want true revenge, forgive them truly and move on. Then, if you are contacted by them again and you can (from a position of true moral superiority) demonstrate your generosity of spirit, you will make them even more ashamed of their past indiscretions.
Josh at March 7, 2010 10:35 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/06/friending.html#comment-1700273">comment from JoshThe only thing I would caution is that resenting people for years is really counterproductive.
Again, the girl who acknowledged what she did and apologized I have respect for. This guy, who wants to increase his "friend" list, and pretends he didn't even know what was being done to my family's house and to me (and who I strongly suspect was part of the doing) I have no interest in.
Amy Alkon at March 8, 2010 12:18 AM
The jerks and bullies never know what they did, they are oblivious.
For some reason my junior high had a reunion, it was a small Catholic school about 17 in the graduating class. Anyway I was near the bottom of the social ladder and was teased a lot.
So I refused to go to the reunion. When the organizer asked why I said because people weren't my friends then so why should I bother seeing them now? The funny thing was the organizer was the bitchiest meanest person in school back then, and was shocked and amazed that I didn't like them or going to school with those people. Apparently I caused a big hubub at the reunion. One person said "I thought we all made fun of each other" well no, I wasn't making fun of anyone.
plutosdad at March 8, 2010 6:53 AM
I had a weird FB friend attempt recently. My sister's friend, a girl we grew up next door to, repeatedly tried to friend me on FB. Now, yes, I know this girl, but a) I never hung out with her, my sister did and b) I hadn't even talked to her in ten years. I know exactly what it was about - she was always nosy and that apparently hasn't changed. I ignored her request three times - if she does it again I'm blocking her (which is my standard FB policy). I don't get why she thinks she needs to know about my life, since I have no clue who she'd gossip about it to, but whatever.
I haven't talked to anyone from high school in 20 years, nor do I care to. I only had about 5 people there I hung out with, and apparently they're not on FB, as far as I can tell. I also purposely don't put my maiden name on FB, because I don't want to deal with these people.
Really, I'm just SUPER HAPPY my former in-laws haven't come looking for me. That's a big bucket of crazy I'd rather not deal with.
Oh, and happy birthday Amy!
Ann at March 8, 2010 7:42 AM
I've gotten a bunch of what appear to be fraudulent requests... since I don't even have facebook, but am a member of other services... so be careful.
SwissArmyD at March 8, 2010 10:18 AM
Wish I could remember the TV character who said, "Facebook is so you can hook up with people you didn't hook up with in high school."
Mr. Teflon at March 9, 2010 12:36 PM
Thanks for the post. Im a big fans of your blog, i've just put a little bookmark right on the tool bar of my Firefox you'll be happy to find out!
just JP at March 11, 2010 5:40 AM
Leave a comment