Boys Will Be...Suspended
To be a boy is to play with guns and transportation toys like cars and trucks and planes.
Politically correct parents try to give their kids "gender neutral" toys to play with -- and, typically, very soon, the little girl is dressing up a pillow into a dolly and the boy is using his carrot like a gun.
The latest is, a 6-year-old boy who didn't even have a gun, was suspended from his school in Michigan for making one with his finger and pointing it at other students, which "created discomfort" for them (in the words in the story). From Fox News:
School officials also told the paper that Mason had been warned repeatedly against pretending to aim his hand at students but continued the behavior over several months.Jammer told the paper her son isn't violent and doesn't have toy guns at home.
Ah...maybe this is the problem.
She suggested a less harsh punishment, like taking Mason's recess away, might be more effective in teaching him not to make a gun with his hand.
One wonders, where was Mommy in all this? The news stories I found didn't have much more than what Fox did. Is there parenting going on here, or is the school the only source of discipline for the kid?
Sounds like a surreptitious method of disarming our citizenry. We're punishing children for even entertaining the idea of holding firearms. And punishing Mason, of course, teaches both him and the children in whom "discomfort" was "created" and that only bad people carry guns.
Ingenious, really.
Not only will the children be less inclined to own guns themselves, but they will be at least unconsciously shunning those that do.
I suppose merely teaching the children some age appropriate gun safety (and not punishing Mason at all) is out of the question. Sigh.
Patrick at March 8, 2010 12:56 AM
Girls will be girls, but I do wish that my 4-year old were not so princess-fixated.
I used to think that Dora the Explorer was too PC, but now I see that she is a way to get girls interested in things like maps and experiments.
Engineer at March 8, 2010 1:06 AM
I remember reading a national geographic about... I think it was orangatuns. Anyhow, the little girl orangatuns will take a stick and cuddle it and nurse it as though it were a baby. So even monkey make dolls. Little monkey maidens are... anthropomorphising isnt the right word... simopomorphising?... the sticks.
NicoleK at March 8, 2010 1:13 AM
And by the way, Happy Birthday, Amy.
Patrick at March 8, 2010 1:24 AM
I apologize in advance, this annoys me so much that I am not going to provide any real insights...just anger and cliches...
Guns are bad mmmkay, and if you play with guns you're bad mmmkay...if you make pretend that you have a gun using your thumb and pointer finger you're bad mmmkay...
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Red at March 8, 2010 3:20 AM
We used to play "Armies" in school for ages and ages and ages at a time. It was great fun.
I've been thinking about what the problem is with the PCism and all the crazy in the world - and I think I may have found the answer:
Too many people are either stupid or just utter dicks.
We need instant response to the crazy - for example, there was a case in Britain just over a year ago at Christmas where a woman was asked to remove the Christmas decorations from her house because they might offend some people. Whoever instigated that request and absolutely everyone involved in making it should have been looking for a new job the next day. Let's show people they can't crazify our world.
Of course, the problem is the the crazies tend to be in positions of authority and power (see your teachers above) and so doing anything about it tends to be tricksome.
I wonder if these are the people who used to pull their dogs' tails and throw their cats in the bath, or whatever it is young animal-torturers do these days. Man, abuse of power bugs the living crap out of me.
donald at March 8, 2010 4:07 AM
Engineer,
Check this out:
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thedudette/nostalgia-chick/14707-ep021
I love this girl. Some brilliant reviews.
donald at March 8, 2010 4:10 AM
I'm gonna cyberstalk and send this little guy a toy gun, he's obviously suffering from a deficit and acting out as a result. I'm gonna send the mom a spine as well.
Juliana at March 8, 2010 4:56 AM
I don't get it...either the little boy was acting in a normal way for boys and DOESN'T need to be punished...or he was misbehaving and NEEDS to be punished (thus he has the mother who doesn't want to punish him).
What is being written here on the one hand appears to be advocating for the boy, in a "boys will be boys" kind of manner. So I thought the point was that it's stupid to be caught up in the whole "pow pow" with the finger issue...
Then we go on to how the mother is the problem for not wanting to punish the boy. Okaaaaayyy...
Here's what I think - the mother doesn't feel this is punishable behavior because IT'S FUCKING STUPID to suspend a boy for pointing a finger and going "POW POW". I agree with her too...there is no need for such severe "discipline" for such a stupid issue.
karen at March 8, 2010 5:32 AM
Well, if the little boy was making other kids uncomfortable, and they told him so, and he didn't stop, he should be punished. Not suspended, though, kept in from recess, or made to sit away from the other kids for a day. And given some consequence at home. "Don't needlessly bother others" is a pretty good lesson for a six-year-old to learn, whether what's bothering the other children is his pointing a finger-and-thumb "gun" at them, or sticking his tounge out, or flipping the bird. And it's still totally developmentally apropriate for six-year-olds in kindergarten or first grade to need that reinforced every so often. Isn't that one of the vital social skills that homeschoolers are "depriving" their children of?
If the kids were playing Cops and Robbers, or some such, where all were happy and the "gun" was part of the game, the school should leave him alone, of course. BUT, they claim he was bothering other kids. And it is reasonable to be bothered, when you're not part of the game, to have fingers pointed at you in a gun-like way, even if you don't think only bad people have guns---if you know that good people use guns to shoot bad people, then the other kid is calling you a bad person. Or, he's just annoying you needlessly, the same way that sticking his tounge out would.
Jenny Had A Chance at March 8, 2010 6:13 AM
Some places are also trying to eliminate recesses for elementary school children. This has disaster written all over it for young active boys. Many will end up labeled as hyperactive.
David M. at March 8, 2010 6:15 AM
Mother, hell. . . .
Where was his FATHER and why isn't he stepping up to deal with this crap?
Bill McNutt at March 8, 2010 6:23 AM
"kids uncomfortable, and they told him so, and he didn't stop, he should be punished"
How many 6 year olds do you know that are able to properly identify feelings such as "uncomfortable"?? Do you know a lot of 1st graders who say "little Johnny is making me uncomfortable with his shooting". It's more likely that this kid is just annoying the other kids with the POW POW...and the teachers are adding the "uncomfortable" part.
karen at March 8, 2010 6:25 AM
>>Where was his FATHER and why isn't he stepping up to deal with this crap?
Ah, yes, ALWAYS blame the father, even in a society where women are routinely allowed to kick the father out of the kid's life with government help. I bet the father is exactly where the mother wants him to be.
Of course, there is also the possibility the father is involved, and a feminist journalist assumed only Mommy's opinion counts, thus deliberately ignored the father.
But, I am betting on the first choice, until we get more information.
irlandes at March 8, 2010 6:35 AM
"How many 6 year olds do you know that are able to properly identify feelings such as "uncomfortable"?? Do you know a lot of 1st graders who say "little Johnny is making me uncomfortable with his shooting". It's more likely that this kid is just annoying the other kids with the POW POW...and the teachers are adding the "uncomfortable" part"
This.
The teachers made it a big deal, not the kids.
Now I am all for teaching a child manners but I do think this punishment is a little severe. I do know that most schools have an "Anti gun play" and any kid caught playing guns can be punished. If that rule is made clear, and little Johnny is given a warning reminding him that that sort of play is not allowed and then still does it, then I am all for losing recess privelages. But just suspending him is just ridiculous. I guess I just don't have enough info to judge it though. The article isn't really very forthcoming with it.
Sabrina at March 8, 2010 6:41 AM
Ridiculous! The little guy is using his finger as a gun, and now heads are supposed to roll! Whatever happened to letting kids just be kids? IF the little guy was getting on the other kids' nerves, the best thing to do is remove him from the situation, give him a time out or something. Suspension? Way to harsh and over the top. Unless he's routinely been a trouble-maker.
Flynne at March 8, 2010 6:44 AM
I am confused about how pointing at another student is "disruptive".
I could only understand that if he were doing it while the teacher was talking, or doing it to make little girls cry or something like that. But in that case the teacher would say the child was disruptive and might need after school therapy to help him pay attention, and the pointing at other kids would be incidental.
Of course none of that was mentioned. So either the reporter has an agenda and only covered part of the story, or the teacher has an agenda and it's the teacher who is "uncomfortable" when a 6 year old points at her.
plutosdad at March 8, 2010 6:45 AM
Ah yes, the latest 5-year-old to be put on trial for political incorrectness. What are they going to charge him with, possession of an unlicensed finger?
And then there's this from the ditzy mom: "She suggested a less harsh punishment, like taking Mason's recess away..." Oh yeah, that'll work reeeeeeaaaaaaallll well. After all, little boys love nothing better than to sit motionless in a chair day after day. Hell, why not just keep him under sedation until he turns 30? (And actually, this leads me to another train of thought: if one accepts the premise that today's young men are immature compared to past generations, to what extent has that been caused by the drugs that they were administered in grade school having retarded their intellectual and emotional growth?)
Cousin Dave at March 8, 2010 6:45 AM
Oh, and my apologies for that last sentence construction.... I just couldn't think of a better way to word it.
Cousin Dave at March 8, 2010 6:47 AM
Why are you blaming the mother? This sounds like a stupid school overreaction. You start out stating how normal this behavior is, then question, "Where's the mother?" Well, it seems she's the one making the sane suggestion that suspension is unwarranted here, and perhaps taking away his recess would be more appropriate.
Kids that age can develop repetitive behaviors that are plain annoying, whether they're pointing fingers, repeating phrases, or just fidgeting in general. What is unclear is whether the school is more upset over the annoying behavior or the fact he was making a gun with his hands.
I'd ask, "Where is the teacher in all this?" Is she/he that inept that they can't think of any other punishment for a six year old besides suspension?
lovelysoul at March 8, 2010 7:17 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/08/a_war_against_b.html#comment-1700332">comment from plutosdadI am confused about how pointing at another student is "disruptive". I could only understand that if he were doing it while the teacher was talking, or doing it to make little girls cry or something like that.
I wonder if the school has some policy against playing with even imaginary guns.
Amy Alkon at March 8, 2010 7:28 AM
If they didn't use the word "uncomfortable" but said "Johnny's bugging me!" or "Johnny, I'm not playing with you, quit shooting me!" it's pretty reasonable for an adult to call that discomfort. If little girls were crying, because they didn't like him "shooting" them, especially with "pow-pow, bang-bang" sound effects, then, yes, he's breaking the rules. No need to suspend him, of course, but, yes, discipline him, at school and at home. He needs to learn to respect other people's feelings, so that he doesn't one day end up an example in Amy's book.
A minimum standard of manners ought to be expected of school children, right? Don't stick your tounge out at people, don't put up your middle finger. Neither of those are threatening, but they are disrespectful and should not be tolerated. Same thing with the finger-and-thumb gun. No, it doesn't hurt people. Don't do it, anyway.
IF he was shooting other kids who were part of a game on the playground, no harm, no foul. But that doesn't appear to be what happened. Unless the teacher is outright lying, some kids expressed discomfort. Probably not with the word "uncomfortable" but why split hairs?
Jenny Had A Chance at March 8, 2010 7:29 AM
They need to teach the other children that "Kids in the Hall" routine of "I'm Crushing Your Head!" between their thumb and index finger. That will give the school and the parents something else to freak out about.
Pricklypear at March 8, 2010 7:49 AM
Too many schools' employees have lost their good sense. But they still retain power and status as child guardians nearly equal in power to parents. We are stuck with them for at least another generation.
So always deal with the teachers and administrators politely, but undermine their social authority until they regain their good sense. State to people you meet what is wrong with school employees. Do that in a calm, cool voice. Do it frequently. Say it to the faces of school employees as well, even in the presence of children who they oversee.
That plain-spoken truth-telling creates social pressure to change. It is vital.
Also, contrary to modern mores, encourage people to teach their children to fight with their fists and, when old enough, how to safely shoot guns. Becoming familiar with the "how" of violence helps take away the mystique of state employees who (properly) hold a monopoly on the use of force in our society. When we know what cops and soldiers know, it is easier to remember that a cop or soldier is just a person WE employ to make sure OUR will is enforced against those who will not respect social compacts.
Encourage people to teach children that fighting is unlikely to resolve most problems, and is usually only a solution when protecting yourself from attack.
Encourage parents to teach their children that even if society will punish them for striking back when attacked--and it often will--the parents never will punish them for self-defense responses. Explain the reasons why society currently sees self-defense as "wrong", even though it is actually ethically and morally right.
Encourage parents to teach children that the children should defend their safety when it is threatened, and to not rely on someone else's intervention to keep them safe. Generally speaking, no one cares about your physical safety as much as you care about your physical safety. So don't rely on relatively uninterested third parties to keep you safe.
Encourage (i.e., make) boys to frequently attend meetings at male-oriented organizations, like a Boy Scout troop or a boy-centric fighting arts class, where men will be in charge and the relationships developed will be relatively long-term. Those organizations will serve as a counter-balance to female-dominated schools, which do much unintended harm to young boys, and call it caring.
Spartee at March 8, 2010 7:54 AM
Where is the father? Oh, he only gets to see the child on weekends (maybe).
Where is the mother? Oh, shes at work all day playing single working mommy.
Who raises this child? Why the school of course!
Wake up folks. This model does not work.
Kill no-fault divorce, institute automatic shared parenting (except for parents that have or could harm the child), watch the divorce rate plummet, and watch children live happier and healthier lives.
Get rid of tenure in public school and make teachers accountable for teaching. Let them concentrate on thier job instead of all of the indoctrination.
mike at March 8, 2010 8:29 AM
mike,
The job of government teachers is to indoctrinate students into becoming obedient citizens. People who ask questions annoy those in power. Some of them even have the nerve to think that governments exist to meet their needs, not vice-versa.
The teachers work for the union and the government, not the students.
MarkD at March 8, 2010 8:46 AM
Geeze, this is a six year old, people! Little kids are often unruly. That's normal. It doesn't mean he has a bad home life, no relationship with his father, etc. This is part of the problem. We've lost all sense about normal kid behavior and any little bit of acting out must be somebody's fault.
It's not the parent's job to discipline the child AT SCHOOL. You trust the teacher to have some understanding and training about how to discipline. If she can't control a six year old, she's not a very good teacher. Period. My mom taught early elementary, and she knew how to deal with kids who were acting up. She didn't spank them or anything - she'd distract them, talk to them, or impose a punishment. That's part of a teacher's job.
It sounds like all this teacher did was "ask him not to do that". A good teacher would try to distract him, or find an appropriate punishment which would teach him not to annoy the other kids. Yet, she apparently went to her superior and said, "Suspend this child!" because she doesn't know how to deal with the situation.
And maybe she honestly thinks there's something abnormal about a little boy making a gun gesture. OBVIOUSLY it must be his home life, the mother's fault, the father's fault, society's fault, the media's fault or some other pathology. Not that she doesn't know how to properly handle a six year old.
lovelysoul at March 8, 2010 9:17 AM
My son happens to be in a 2 PARENT household and he still has 2 WORKING parents and the school does NOT PARENT my son! He has to go to school all day, every day whether I work or not and I don't think it's fair to say all working parents are not there to parent their children. I am always available to talk to his teacher and even leave work if an issue were to arise.
That said, I do think it was over the top to suspend this boy. I also have a 1st grade boy who is about as off the wall active as they come. I wonder though. unless this is a very strict school, it seems like it would take a awful lot to be suspended at 6 years old! I think this is a very hard act for boys and many have a hard time sitting still and "behaving" all day. My son is reminded at least a few times a week when he can play and when to sit still and he does have some rough days but as his parents we are always there to communicate with the teacher and assess when a punishment is needed.
"Boys will be boys" is the most ridiculous excuse there ever was. It gives a free pass for boys and in turn MEN to excuse bad behavior because they can't "help" themselves. How about teaching them to be accountable for their behavior.
CC at March 8, 2010 9:23 AM
The argument for home-schooling in a nutshell.
brian at March 8, 2010 9:36 AM
Clearly he was trying to finger bang-bang his way into his friends hearts.
/southpark
Sio at March 8, 2010 10:36 AM
"The job of government teachers is to indoctrinate students into becoming obedient citizens."
Actually, that is the parents job. The job of the teachers is to "teach" them and hopefully inspire them. It is the parents job to rear them to be productive citizens.
"The teachers work for the union and the government, not the students."
I disagree. Since I am the one actually funding the public education system by paying federal and state taxes (despite the fact that I don't actually have children right now) and since it will be one day be my children they are "indoctrinating", I say they work for me. Not directly of course, but you get my point.
Sabrina at March 8, 2010 11:02 AM
LS, I could be wrong about this, but the reason I was ripping on the mother is because her response was the sort of wishy-washy response I expect to hear from PC parents. What I would have expected from a good parent would be one of the following: (1) "Yes, my boy was misbehaving. And I'll take care of the problem at home; it won't happen again and hopefully the school will agree that a suspension is not necessary." Or, (2) "My boy did nothing wrong. The school is completely out of line, and if they suspend him I'll place him in a private school and then I'll sue the school district, the teacher, and the principal."
The thing is, a 6-year-old boy is either not going to comprehend that a suspension is a punishment, or else he will not be able to associate the suspension with anything he did because of the time lapse. Either way, as behavior correction, it's totally ineffective.
Cousin Dave at March 8, 2010 11:33 AM
CC: I applaud you for having two working parents that manage to raise their son. However, from the last sentence I get the feeling that there is no FATHER in this "two parent" household. Very telling, from your TONE!!
mike at March 8, 2010 12:03 PM
Canada considers changing their national anthem to gender-neutral.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100304/od_nm/us_anthem_odd
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 8, 2010 1:03 PM
Mike~ There is a FATHER a MAN in my household...That would be my husband. He was also raised that people should be accountable for their own actions! I am surprised that just because we don't believe people gneder should give them a pass for behaving any way they feel like (boy or girl) that you assume I am a lesbian.
How telling YOUR comment is and how undisciplined your boys (if you have any) must be.
CC at March 8, 2010 1:55 PM
*people's gender-typo
CC at March 8, 2010 1:59 PM
Some political hacks & PC nazis considered changing the anthem, Gog, but public opposition was overwhelming:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100308/wl_canada_nm/canada_us_anthem_1
Martin at March 8, 2010 2:28 PM
"Actually, that is the parents job. The job of the teachers is to "teach" them and hopefully inspire them. It is the parents job to rear them to be productive citizens."
According to the school district I work for, it is the teachers' job to help the students become productive citizens. That's pretty much the basis of the U.S. education model.
LL at March 8, 2010 4:11 PM
Martin, I'm trying to stir the pot here. Don't get all "factual" on me with "reality". This is about trolling for reactions from Canada-haters.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 8, 2010 4:32 PM
Nice. More gender subversion, women's liberation and Marxist ideology. Creeps me out. They won't be satisfied until all American males are donning pink tutu's by the age of 5.
"'The Authoritarian personality,' studied by the Frankfurt School in the 1940s and 1950s in America, prepared the way for the subsequent warfare against the masculine gender promoted by Herbert Marcuse and his band of social revolutionaries under the guise of 'women's liberation' and the New Left movement in the 1960s. The evidence that psychological techniques for changing personality is intended to mean emasculation of the American male is provided by Abraham Maslow, founder of Third Force Humanist Psychology and a promoter of the psychotherapeutic classroom, who wrote that, '...the next step in personal evolution is a transcendence of both masculinity and femininity to general humanness.' The Marxist revolutionaries knew exactly what they wanted to do and how to do it. They have succeeded in accomplishing much of their agenda." -- excerpt of History of the Frankfurt School, Dr. Gerald L. Atkinson CDR USN (Ret.) 1999
http://frankfurtschool.us/history.htm
"Where is my John Wayne...where have all the Cowboys gonnneeee...(?"
Feebie at March 8, 2010 4:42 PM
Amy, I remembered from this post back in November that you commended a family for canceling their 5 or 6 year old daughter's birthday party after she threw a tantrum in a grocery store:
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2009/11/25/behaviors_on_th.html#comments
If canceling a birthday party is appropriate for one incident of public misbehavior, then how is suspension from school inappropriate for repeated incidents of unacceptable behavior?
I've frequently noticed you taking a hard line towards kids not being allowed in public places-restaurants, movie theaters, buses, airplanes-until they can learn to behave and not disturb fellow diners/passengers/moviegoers. I doubt you would apply the "boys will be boys" line if this boy was running up and down the aisles next to you at the movies. Don't this kid's fellow classmates deserve the same courtesy?
I can remember back from elementary school that kids (boys AND girls) like this who were hyperactive/disruptive/disobedient etc sucked a LOT of time, energy, attention, and resources away from the teacher and school system in general...it's not really fair to their classmates (boys AND girls) who CAN behave in a school environment and are there to learn.
So if your kid can't behave in school and is "stealing the time and peace of mind" of his classmates, then keeping him out of school might be an effective way of shocking him into changing his behavior. If his parents handle it the right way and make the causes and effects of his behavior very clear to him, then a 6 year old is certainly capable of understanding consequences and changing his behavior.
Shannon at March 8, 2010 11:32 PM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/08/a_war_against_b.html#comment-1700470">comment from Shannonthen how is suspension from school inappropriate for repeated incidents of unacceptable behavior?
We don't really know the full story here. Is the boy doing this in class, disrupting class? Or is being a boy -- playing with guns, and if guns are banned, making an imaginary gun -- being outlawed?
Furthermore, the mother seems to have a sort of bystander's approach to discipline.
Amy Alkon at March 8, 2010 11:37 PM
"I can remember back from elementary school that kids (boys AND girls) like this who were hyperactive/disruptive/disobedient etc sucked a LOT of time, energy, attention, and resources away from the teacher and school system in general..."
Oh, great, now he's "hyperactive"...in addition to having a bad mom, an absentee dad, a child of divorce, and somehow suffering the ill effects of feminism...
I love all the layman's diagnosis of this child. An idiot teacher can't handle a 6 yr old, the school way overreacts, then we all follow suit!
This is the problem. You don't overreact in discipline. If you do it right, it's like driving a car - steady but firm correction all the way down the road. If you overreact and jerk the wheel to the side every time you see a squirrel, you'll careen into a ditch.
Six year olds never used to be suspended from school. I don't recall anyone in my kindergarten or first grade class ever being SUSPENDED. And, before anyone starts, we had "hyperactive, disruptive, and disobedient kids" too.
This is not a new thing. It's a new reaction to an old thing...a severe overreaction. I thought that was Amy's point until she chided the mom.
The mom is the only sane one in the story. A good mom doesn't join in with craziness that is effecting her child. When the world has lost its mind, you don't teach your child just to go along. She's not taking a "bystander's approach to discipline" - she's critical of this overreaction, as she should be. It would be absurd for the mom to show her son that this school is correct for suspending him over a silly hand gesture, and not choosing a more moderate form of discipline.
If it were me, I'd be out of that school so fast their heads would spin. There are times you teach your child to stand up to foolishness - because (as we all know) he'll be dealing with overreactive, incompetent jerks all his life - so this would be a good teaching moment.
lovelysoul at March 9, 2010 6:51 AM
Amy Alkon
http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2010/03/08/a_war_against_b.html#comment-1700536">comment from lovelysoulI found the mom's response sort of odd, but I agree with you on not suspending a 6-year-old, and I suspect there's some nutso policy about not even allowing imaginary guns behind this, although there was nothing about that in the report. Just suspect.
Amy Alkon at March 9, 2010 7:01 AM
The kid could be bored with the subject matter and acting out. He might need to be skipped a grade or need to get some advanced attention.
Conan the Grammarian at March 9, 2010 10:19 AM
@ Spartee at March 8, 2010 7:54 AM
...my parents largely took that approach (replace "meetings" with "athletics," and bump up the firearms safety training to occur before two-wheeler training). I'm glad they did. Among other things, I learned the difference between respecting authority and unconditionally submitting to it.
When you say that we will be stuck with school employees who have lost their good sense "for at least another generation," I wonder if you see a change on the horizon?
Michelle at March 9, 2010 1:36 PM
"how is suspension from school inappropriate for repeated incidents of unacceptable behavior?"
The article doesn't state he was suspended for repeated incidents of "unacceptable behavior", it just says he was suspended for curling his hand into the shape of a gun and pointing it at another student (and having done that repeatedly) --- it doesn't say if this was outside while the kids were playing, or if it was in the classroom and thus disrupting lessons. Disrupting classes repeatedly is unacceptable, sure, but it doesn't say he was; either you have another source that does, or it's conjecture on your part, or you actually believe that it's "unacceptable" for boys to point imaginary-finger-guns at others even if just playing. Unless you have another source, the other two options are wrong.
Lobster at March 10, 2010 6:01 PM
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