Sounds like a good retort to me, but it's going to invite a spiel about parenting techniques, mostly pop-psychology nonsense.

... use the old Jewish answer-a-question-with-a-question technique:

"Are YOU a parent?"

"No - are YOU?"

or:

"Yes - are YOU?"

with significant/ironic glance to the 'Lil Monsta.

I think sometimes other parents are harsher than non-parents when they see kids acting up in stores. There's always the feeling of superiority that "my kid never did that." There's a difference though between a kid being allowed to run wild and a kid having a bad day and a parent who is trying to get things done and obviously feeling overwhelmed or frustrated. Sometimes it happens.

I was very blessed with kids who never threw tantrums and I honestly can't claim it was because of my superior parenting skills. My kids had very laid back personalities. I do recall though one time having to go to the grocery store and dragging two very tired kids, both under 4. I had avoided going waiting for my husband to come home from work. When he got stuck, I had no choice but to go. There was some whining and some crying. Leaving wasn't an option. All I could do was grab the necessities as quickly as possible and get out. I try to remember that when I see a mom or dad who is obviously trying to get something done while out. Its very different from the mom or dad who is ignoring the kid and browsing while the kid screams or throws things.

When some scene is uinfolding, I often gently ask if the parent (typically a mom, alone) needs some help.

Some cry, and tell me "yes."

I think I will keep doing it my way. Yours sounds like unnecessarily mean bullshit.

Kudos to Spartee - sometimes it really is a situation like Kristen describes, where no one is at fault, and a bit of help really goes a long way...

I think I will keep doing it my way. Yours sounds like unnecessarily mean bullshit.

This is the after-the-fact remark, after I ask somebody to please quiet their child, or do it myself. I once went over and gently but firmly talked a child who was SCREAMING at the top of his lungs to (left screaming, at around age 3, in an unsafely high stool by his mother who went to order food at the Rose Cafe). I just told him something like, "When you scream like that, it hurts me right here (pointing between eyes). You need to stop right now." He did. His mother should try that some time. She came over and said, "How dare you parent my child." Me (couldn't resist): "You weren't doing it."

Another scenario -- one where I was asked "Are YOUUUUU a parent?"

I was at my writing cafe, kid with muddy feet jumping up and down on chair, "parent" ignoring this. I pointed it out to parent, heard the inquiry.

If a mother asks "Are you a parent," is it rude to say "No, but I see by your kid's behavior, neither are you"?

Personally, I do see this as being rude. See Kristen's example above. Also, saying something like that to any parent creates hostility where none (at least not any more) is really needed or wanted. Minding one's own business, unless the child is right up in your face, is the best way to handle it. Once the kid is in your face, then you say something. First to the child directly. If that doesn't help, then say something to the parent, but I wouldn't recommed getting too confrontational about it. You never know where the other parent is, or what kind of person they are. If the kid gets in your face, what would stop the parent from doing so as well? Some people just have no concept of personal boundaries. Those are the ones ya just gotta walk away from.

I will agree a little kindness and understanding go a long way. But...There is a difference between a parent who is obviously tired and trying their best and a parent who allows their child to behave like a monster because they don't believe in the word "NO" because "it might stifle Jr's creativity" or whatever other bullshit excuse they want to use for not disiplining their hellspawn.

I will use my local grocery store as an example. I often see children acting out because they are tired and mom is actively trying to get the kid engaged and just isn't having any luck. Often times, that parent looks like they have just had a really long day and need a break. I will tell that parent, "Hey, I know it rough but hang in there. You will get through it. Can I help you with anything?" And that is usally greeted with a huge sigh and a thank you. Then, there are the parents whose kids are running up and down the aisles, pulling things off the shelves, shrieking, and making a general nuisance while thier parent looks on like their kid is the Christ child and do not event attempt to curb thier actions. Or in the rare occasion that they say anything at all, it is one of those obligatory yet ineffectual scolds that serve no purpose but to give the parent an excuse to say "Well I told him to stop and he didn't listen. What do you want me to do? He's just a kid...blah blah..." I am not going to go out of my way to help that parent. Thier kids would probably only kick me in the shin and call me a stupid poopy fart face anyway.(Yes, that has actually happened and why I am so adamant about it now). That parent deserves every headache and dirty look they get.

And Amy, I do get where you're coming from, but sometimes the confrontation isn't worth. Can't teach a pig to sing, and all that.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference between a parent having a bad day and a poor excuse for a parent. I think the latter, like Sabrina said, deserve what they get.

My favorite retort is "I don't have to walk a mile in your shoes to know your laces are untied."

By the time they parse it, I'm halfway across the store. Win-win. I just wish I could remember who I stole that from. :D

I wonder sometimes Amy...do you expect children to behave the same way as well mattered adults do at all times? I know some people's children are little monsters with almost no parenting or boundaries and I under NO circumstances agree with that kind of parenting. I also have a child though and understand that sometimes they have a totally unexpected meltdown about something that as an adult would be a "That sucks" and move on moment. Children are NOT tiny adults. They are being groomed to become adults but they are not in control of their emotions and feelings the way (most) adults are. I understand it's annoying when a child is acting out in public...even I hate it. Saying they shouldn't even be allowed in public though unless they are going to behave perfectly every second of the day sounds a little callous and hateful. Some of these are children that just last year couldn't manage to NOT poop themselves. It's no big surprise they can't always properly control their emotions and behavior. Sometimes as parents it takes a few minutes to get them back under control. Of course that kid stopped screaming when you talked to him, you probably scared the crap out of him! You are a stranger and he is 3 YEARS OLD!

Of course that kid stopped screaming when you talked to him, you probably scared the crap out of him! You are a stranger and he is 3 YEARS OLD!

Posted by: CC

And what does it say about theparents of shilderne who are scared shitless by anyone and everyone in public who makes a sound in their percious little majestic presence?

Amy scared the crap out of the kid because it was the first time he ever heard the word "no". I'm sure it was quite a shock to him.

I'm just trying to point out that every child that misbehaves at some time or another is not the product of parents who don't parents at all. All children misbehave sometimes! Also, a crying fit is sometimes not a "misbehavior" but a moment where the child is hungry, tired, or sad and that the only was his/her feeling are expressed. Sure in this istance the mother was probably one of those mothers that doesn't parent correctly but if my son were crying for one minute, two minutes, etc while I tried to get him to compose himself would I get the same reaction for some of you? Kids don't just have an automatic off switch..sometimes it takes a minute even with parents who are good parents.
You don't have children and it seems to me that would NOT make you an expert on how to parent them properly. Most people have totally different, idealist outlooks on "how things would go if it were me or my kid" which is pretty darn conveniant because IT'S NOT YOUR KID or your life and you have no idea what's really going on.

CC,
Amy, nor any of us for that matter, ever said that children shouldn't go into public. Nor do we expect them to be tiny adults. Where the hell did you get that from? This is another case of a parent who thinks that those of us who don't want to hear kids shrieking in our ears or knocking us over are all child haters. What we said was that parents need to at least TRY to control thier children in public. That's all. Don't assume that we are all child hating bitches just because we don't tolerate entitled parents forcing thier ill behaved children on the rest of us and expecting us to just get over it because "they are just chhiiiiiiilddrreeeeennn" and "They don't knoooowwww any better". Well, YOU know better. Why should I be the one to "move on" when it's YOUR kid causing the disruption?
Of course a child is going to have a melt down occasionally. Most adults are sympathetic to that. But it is the parent of that childs responsibility to act accordingly during that melt down. The responsible thing to do is take the child outside, or somewhere private if you can't get outside, and try to calm the child. If they can't be calmed, then the parent should take the child home. You may have to cancel your plans, or wait to do your errands, but that is the sacrifice you make as a parent. It isn't right to ask the rest of society to tolerate your kids screaming just because it is inconveniant for you.

Well said Sabrina. CC - you seem to have quite the chip on your shoulder.

Care to tell us why?

. . . and yes - I am a parent. 16 year old daughter, FYI.

And before you ask me "How would you know? Do you have kids? How can you possibly understand what it's like?" I will tell you no, I don't have kids. I am only 28 and not ready for them yet. But just becuase I don't have kids of my own yet doesn't mean I don't have know what I am talking about. For what it's worth though, I was a live in Nanny and Certified full time day care worker when I lived in NYC and can without a doubt tell you that I know what the hell I am talking about. And in most cases, I was more a parent to those kids then thier own parents were.

I don't have a chip railmeat. I am just right. If you want to say I have chip then so be it. But I am still right.

Honestly I thought something was said at the beginning...someone quoting Amy that children shouldn't be allowed in public if they can't behave. Just stating that all kids don't behave all the time.
I don't think that means that all people w/out children are crazy child haters but I think a few people responding here sure give the impression that they are. Sure that doesn't mean that you are but why are you so offended by me speaking my opinion? Half the stuff I said was AGREEING that I too dislike little out of control children that no one seems to be parenting.
I don't know why I seem like I have a chip on my shoulder. I just can't imagine being as rude in public as some people call everyday life. Sure these people are not parenting correctly and the children are causing a stink so your solution is to stoop to their level.
Maybe things are just different where I am from. I have never had a child scream through a movie (how many G rated movies are you seeing?) or through my whole meal unless I was at Chuck E Cheese and then you're kind of asking for it.
I'm actually a nice, well rounded, regular person who disciplines when is appropriate and surely would never let my child scream for an hour and just ignore them. I also don't turn my noise and make nasty comments to people EVER for any reason because it's just not what polite people do.
I'm rambling a little but from what I said versus the responses it seems like I'm the one being attacked by people who seem to think they are the only ones allowed to be right.

Railmeat,
My apologies. I misread your post and thought you were asking me if I had a chip on my shoulder and so my response was not appropriate to you.

CC,
No one means to attack you. You just came across as if you believed that we should just "move on" if a kid is having a screaming melt down because like you said "they can't help it". You're right. They can't. But the parents can. And as much patience and sympathy as I might have, that will wear very thin after a few minutes. If I see that a parent is at least trying, then I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Parents who do nothing to disipline thier ill behaved kids or calm their tantruming ones and then get mad at the rest of us for stepping in to do what they should have been doing in the first place are the reason we are all so up in arms. These are also the same parents that yell at store workers for "not watching him!" when their wittle pwecious falls off the shelf they were climbing and threaten to sue the store. If you are not one of those parents then you really have no reason to be offended then in my opinion.

If it was my 3 year old screaming while my back was turned, and Amy would have made him quiet down like that, I would have thanked her and bought her a coffee.

Patrick's Post-You were right!
Ben-David- Great variation on the theme.
Kristen-You sound like a hard-working parent.

Flynne's post:
"Personally, I do see this as being rude. See Kristen's example above. Also, saying something like that to any parent creates hostility where none (at least not any more) is really needed or wanted. Minding one's own business, unless the child is right up in your face,".......BINGO!! Now I can say something, right! If they are going to ask me if I'm a parent, then right back at ya.

Remember, kids will be kids, but sometimes parents won't be parents.

Gregw/1g

2nd that Karen. When other well intentioned adults have buttressed my parenting, it is an absolute blessing, for a couple of reasons. One is that it takes at least some of the burden off of me. But second, and far more important is that my daughter learns that standards of behavior are universal - and not just Dad's arbitrary rule.

. . . and my job just got *immeasurably* easier to do.

Amy - when I witnessed occasionally a 'stranger' gently correcting my daughter, and saw the *immediate* and positive result ('terror' might be too much of a word, but just barely) I remember thinking, 'Damn! I wish I could get that kind of response!'

Sabrina - no worries. I figured the wires got crossed there.

CC: "You don't have children and it seems to me that would NOT make you an expert on how to parent them properly."

I learn a lot of things by seeing people do things wrong as well as right.

You protest too much.

lsomber- Just seems like a reasonable point to me. I've watched my husband repair the sink and install a door, etc. I still have no idea how to do it myself and I certainly wouldn't put my 2 cents in about how someone else is doing it wrong. That's just me though.
You're welcome to do whatever you want.

I still have no idea how to do it myself and I certainly wouldn't put my 2 cents in about how someone else is doing it wrong.

But if the sink leaks and the door falls off the hinges, you'd be correct in pointing out that it was done wrong.

I think we all need to remember that there is a difference between a kid having a bad day and a kid being completely unattended. My example was not meant to excuse all parents who allow kids to run wild. I also can't see myself leaving a 3 year old in a high chair and then going off to order coffee. And should I have a lapse of judgment and do that, if I heard my kid crying, I'd get off the line and go back to my child.
I don't think that Amy or anyone else here is saying all children in public need to be perfect little soldiers. I also think its situational. Kids making noise in Friendly's is not the same as in Peter Luger's Steakhouse. Kids making a little noise in the supermarket is not the same as a kid running the aisles of Macys.

CC, you seem to be trying to change the point here. Most everyone has said that they KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PARENT HAVING A BAD DAY AND A SHITTY PARENT. You keep trying to defend the shitty parent by saying they're all just having a bad day.

Accept the fact that a good number of parents suck, hard (And the bad ones are making it harder for the rest of you, so maybe you SHOULD start telling the crappy ones how to do their jobs, since apparently they think only other parents can criticize them). A prime example are the ones I saw Saturday night with their kids in the bar (AT THE BAR, as a matter of fact, and running all over the damned place as well) at 10pm and subsequently at the 10:45 PM showing of Alice in Wonderland. They ranged in age from 6-10 years old. And sadly that's some of the better behavior I've witnessed in my overly family-friendly town.

What do you do if it's your friends' or siblings' kids that are acting up in public?

I did my best parenting before I had kids. Then, I learned when they were 2,3,4, and 5 years old that it's not so easy. But I still did my best to make sure they learned to control themselves and be considerate. It was stressful at times. Now people compliment me on their behavior.

I can mostly ignore other kids' bad behavior if they're strangers. But it's very embarrassing if I am *with* these people and other adults are staring at us, thinking the same thing I'd be thinking if I were in their shoes. What can one do without causing a rift, besides avoid the social/family activity?

I don't think Amy is suggesting that she skulks about in public waiting to hear the slightest peep out of a child so she can get in the mother's face with extended finger and say, "BAD PARENT!"

I think she'll make allowances for parents who are obviously trying.

Like when I was a cashier, I spotted a three-year-old shoplifter in my checkout aisle. The mother had noticed the problem before I had to say anything to her. The mother ordered her to put the candy back, the child complied. Then the mother laid out the crime and the punishment. And her daughter promptly started bawling, which the mother allowed and basically ignored.

I personally had no problem with that. In fact, I was thrilled that the child was crying. It shows that the punishment had the desired effect. Despite her age, it was made clear to her that she did something wrong and that she was being punished for it.

I was talking with a young mother at Wallyworld a while back. She was in a good mood, her kid was behaving. We didn't know each other but we witnessed one of those kid meltdowns and we started chatting about it. We came up with a hypothesis.

It involved possible stress levels built up in moms when they have to take the kid or kids to the mall or the grocery store. Like, maybe it beginss with mom hoping the children behave themselves, and maybe starting with the "you better be good or you won't get whatever".

So she's already tense and the threats have begun. And who knows what mood the kid is in? Excited because they hope to get something? Sullen because they don't want to stop what they were doing and go to the dumb store? Angry with a sibling who is being a pest?

Anyway, maybe they pick up on mom's tension, which probably increases as she deals with traffic and finding a parking space.

They get in the store and are immediately surrounded with that same tension magnified by the number of other parents and children are already wandering around in there. Add to that the tension from people like me who loathe shopping and crowds and badly behaved kids.

So we were playing with the idea that some sort of atmospheric pressure buildup in the store made it inevitable that at least one kid would burn out a bearing.

Then we pretty much decided that if our theory had any merit, the meltdowns would happen more often than they do. It was interesting to think about, though.

Amy:
But, in her mind, this is what you do when you have children: You are considerate of others who don't want to hear them screaming.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Considerate of others?
Consider your duty as a parent, as well.

This kind of discipline is important for the child's success and happiness in life and future relationships.

*****I can mostly ignore other kids' bad behavior if they're strangers. But it's very embarrassing if I am *with* these people and other adults are staring at us, thinking the same thing I'd be thinking if I were in their shoes. What can one do without causing a rift, besides avoid the social/family activity?*****

I don't know, but I hope someone comes up with an answer. My sister's kids, when small, WERE the children running all over the restaurant and screaming (oh, the stories I could tell, and I only see them once every couple years).

I wanted to crawl under the table. And, if I say anything, I'm a big meanypants and I'm picking on her kids. *eyeroll*

My mother used to be horrified by their behavior and just shake her head as my sister blissfully ignored it all. Her policy is "not my kids, not my problem". I've taken the tact that I'll tell them to sit down and STFU, and usually the shock of hearing someone say no to them is enough to make them do it. The passive-aggressive retribution from sis, however, is more annoying than the bratty behavior of my nieces.

I am SO glad I live halfway across the country from them.

At the checkout last week, the lady behind me had two small children with her. The little girl was cheerfully and helpfully unloading her mother's cart. The little boy was acting like a brat. He wanted a candy bar from the rack, but his mother wouldn't buy him one because he hadn't been obedient during their visit at the store. He had wandered away from her after she told him he would only get a treat if he stayed right with her. So he told her she was "a mean mom," and she just replied, 'That's right.' Honestly, it was all I (and the cashier) could do not to burst out laughing. I guess he learned a thing or two about consequences that day.

Of course, his subsequent meltdown wasn't one of the more pleasant things I've ever had to witness, and I hope his mom whupped his ass for it after they got out to their car. But I paid for my stuff and made a hasty exit while it was still going full-blast.

I don't get upset when I see/hear children acting like brats in public. Their parents have to put up with that crap all the time, but I can escape it just by going home.

"I don't get upset when I see/hear children acting like brats in public. Their parents have to put up with that crap all the time, but I can escape it just by going home"

Yes, you can escape it...Until those brats grow up to be assholes and are then thrust upon the public without the skills to behave like decent human beings. I cringe everytime I see a parent ignoring thier misbehaving child because I know that in ten-fifteen years or so, that that child will be a terror of an adult.

Oh man, I just remembered an incident from one of the pretzel stores at our local mall. A mother told her little boy he could have either a pretzel or an ice cream cone. He chose a pretzel. Then he decided he wanted ice cream,too, and threw a fit when she said no.

He kicked her in the shin, yelling the whole time. I had to run my own errands so I didn't see the whole thing, but when I came out of the store a few minutes later, there they were, in line at the Dairy Queen!

Gee, I wonder who's in charge at their house?

Yes, you can escape it...Until those brats grow up to be assholes and are then thrust upon the public without the skills to behave like decent human beings.

I see these 'adults' every day working in computers. They are the ones who think that their problems are larger and more significant than anyone else's and never accept the answer 'the software doesn't do that' for an response. I'm still attempting to convince my management that a large part of customer service is setting clear boundaries. If people don't know what the limits are, they will always be disappointed when you cannot do the impossible.

-Julie

From alt.support.childfree's "Gutterboy":

"If you don't want my opinion on how to raise your children, do not allow your children to behave in a manner that elicits my opinion."

I live near the People's Republic of Cambridge. I shop at various supermarkets. Yet the ONLY kids I see kicking, screaming, or trying to be destructive are those already safely strapped down in their carts/strollers. That is, kids under 3 or so.

So I'd say MOST parents are good at realizing that kids don't "outgrow" tantrums, they have to be forced to outgrow them.

Unsupervised teens in the library are another story, unfortunately.......I swear, school seems to let out at 1:30.

Gutterboy has been around since the early 90's. I'd love to meet him (or her!) someday.